I'm amazed at how interesting a read this thread turned out to be. When I made my previous post I thought I'd just leave my two zen and move on. Instead I got an education on the pros and cons of cloaking ships from the various factions.
Taking all that into account I'm no longer in favor of giving the defiant a battle cloak, I don't want to give up the pros I enjoy with the defiant. So just leave it the way it is IMHO.
I think it will be fine. With all these battlecloakie ships around the game, cryptic can completely delete the console and give to defiant (or, maybe, only to the fleet one) an in-ship battle cloak like rommie ships without compromise any balance...
IT has less shields but more hull... turn is the same... in the case of the somrow.... it has one less tac console but a better boff layout.
The Romulan Varo... which imo is the closest comparison to the defiant. Gets a uni lt cmd... which I think makes the most sense as a Tac anyway giving it the same lay out as the defiant.
However it does have Very slighlty less hull... but I think the shields are about even. Turn is better. The Sing vs Warp core stuff is a wash... yes less power but the trade there is the Sing powers not the cloak.
I agree the Raptor and Defiant should both get battle cloaks... however simply trading a console slot does seem light doesn't it. Perhaps the defiant needs a 10% hull nerf to go with a Upgrade to its cloak console.
The T'varo is a bird-of-prey if I'm not mistaken (sorry returned to the game 2 weeks ago, not 100% on the romulan ships yet), compare it to the Hegh'ta or the B'rel depending on your version, certainly not the defiant.
The Qin raptor has issues that the Dev refuse to fix (such as the busted turn axis), however it is the only comparison without getting into fleet and zen store ships.
With that in mind, the defiant and Qin are a wash defensively and Boff wise; the Defiant has more shields but the Qin has more hull, and the two ships have identical Boff layouts.
Unfortunately, giving a BC to the Raptor would make the BoP rather pointless, except from a solo or gimmick standpoint, since it has less hull, fewer tac consoles, and fewer overall Boff slots. If you could become a stronger raiding ship, with more staying power, in a BCing raptor, then why would you want to be in a BoP?
Meaning that the Defiant would have to brought down a few notches in various categories (doesn't have to be BoP levels because the BoP has other advantages). But it would need to be something more significant than just a console slot, more along the lines or loosing a Tac console slot (on the fleet version) and an aft weapon slot.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Support a KDF equivalent to the Vesta Here
If so, this is why people roll their eyes and/or laugh every time the request of giving the defiant a BC comes up...
I've come to accept the fact that cloak uses up a console slot. If anything, I'd prefer a turn rate increase over cloak being turned into a Battle Cloak.
I think it will be fine. With all these battlecloakie ships around the game, cryptic can completely delete the console and give to defiant (or, maybe, only to the fleet one) an in-ship battle cloak like rommie ships without compromise any balance...
one more slot to use :P
Pay $25 for a ship with just a standard Battle cloak with no special console?
Yeah, the cloak console isn't much, but at least I can put it on any Tactical Escort variant. But, with no console, it doesn't seem like $25 for a T5 ship is worth it. Not to mention there wouldn't be any purpose to by the Z-store ship, when you can get the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit for $5 less. They'd have to replace that console with something else.
Meaning that the Defiant would have to brought down a few notches in various categories (doesn't have to be BoP levels because the BoP has other advantages). But it would need to be something more significant than just a console slot, more along the lines or loosing a Tac console slot (on the fleet version) and an aft weapon slot.
Or remove the console and make the regular cloak a built in ability.
But, then it would be hard to justify $25 for a T5 ship with no consoles. They'd have to replace it with something else.
Hey guys, here's the most clearly reasoned argument why the defiant should have a battle cloak:
All romulan cloaks are battle cloaks.
The defiant cloak is a romulan cloak.
Well lets look at your arguement from the standpoint of "Gave us a cloak". If I give somebody I frequently war with anything its going to be the oldest, easyest to break...most un-reliable piece of junk I can muster. Her cloak according to the series was enourmous, which as technology goes. Seems to indicate a primative design, now your ship is also not using the design that the defiant had. But a Federation constructed version of it.
Another way to look at it, is your ship the same USS Defiant that got blewed up with a cloak... Since the Defiant that had a cloak kinda got pwned by Breen.
Dunno if the Romulan warranty covers Breen Energy Dampening Pwn. But I doubt it.
Just for the record, I hate when these threads pop up.
They practically need their own subforum. And they always play out pretty much the same. They don't usually turn up in the PvP forum, though. Mainly because the guys who are best equipped to blow the arguments into atoms tend to hang out here.
So I'll just echo what I and other people have said many times: Give every KDF Raptor and Battlecruiser a battle cloak, and give every Fed ship better cloak detection, and then we can talk about it.
Otherwise, it usually boils down to getting something for nothing, with no trade-offs, just because it looks like the Defiant.
Can you imagine giving Raptors and Battlecruisers -- which are already effective starships -- a battle cloak? With no trade-offs? Why then should a Defiant get one?
Here's an idea... equip the cloak and the Impulse Capacitance "Afterburner" console. Make your pass, hit the gas, and fly away out of combat range to recloak.
"But that would undermine the firepower and turn rate that the Defiant brings to a fight!"
Exactly.
Battle cloaking ships are not meant to be dogfighters... they're supposed to be hit and run strafers. If you want to turn a perfectly good Defiant into a hit-and-run ship, feel free.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
but the romulan ships blew that out of the water. now its the rule, not the exception. ships with cloaks, but not battle cloaks, almost seem silly.
really not sure how i feel ether way though currently
It would seem to weaken the arguments against it, doesn't it?
But the warbirds pay for that ability with reduced power levels and no singularity charge and all of the normal drawbacks of using it. I can't imagine trying to cloak a D'D in the middle of a fight... you'd get hammered unless you're also using other powers like Jam/Scramble Sensors or hull heals in order to get away with it.
BoP's pay for it with weaker hull and less crew, and it's effectiveness is very situational.
The people who want battle cloak for the Defiant tend not to want to give up anything to get it.
Battlecruisers and Raptors are pretty well effective without it -- and having it would TRIBBLE around with their strengths. Surprise attacks are one thing, but those ships aren't meant to be used like that (in and out of cloak). Neither is the Defiant.
I agree that it doesn't seem to make much sense that the Defiant cloak is a console... except for the fact that the Retrofit is a C-Store ship and the cloak is that ship's special ability and it is the only way the Fleet version can equip a cloak in line with the special consoles of every other Fleet ship variant.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I'll say this. I was fighting a BoP in Kerrat, and it used evasive or something to get away and used its BC. I managed to launch Quantum THY before it got out of range, and you know how the time to impact is determined when fired? And you know cloaking drops a ship's shields?
It disappeared, and a few seconds later it exploded. The battle cloak made a big difference there, didn't it? I'm sure tons of Defiant users want to be on the wrong end of this, I guess. :cool:
But the warbirds pay for that ability with reduced power levels and no singularity charge and all of the normal drawbacks of using it. I can't imagine trying to cloak a D'D in the middle of a fight... you'd get hammered unless you're also using other powers like Jam/Scramble Sensors or hull heals in order to get away with it.
just to troll my opponent, ive battlecloaked under pretty heavy fire by just activating quantum absorption, and the subspace armor thing, even in a tvaro. the singularity powers, namely quantum, is actually worth the power loss, its insanely good. theres like 2 or 3 other singularity powers/rom consoles that let you battleclaok with near 0 issue as well. try BCing your d'deridex with quantum and see how it goes! those temporary hitpoints are perfect for battle cloaking without consequence.
just to troll my opponent, ive battlecloaked under pretty heavy fire by just activating quantum absorption, and the subspace armor thing, even in a tvaro. the singularity powers, namely quantum, is actually worth the power loss, its insanely good. theres like 2 or 3 other singularity powers/rom consoles that let you battleclaok with near 0 issue as well. try BCing your d'deridex with quantum and see how it goes! those temporary hitpoints are perfect for battle cloaking without consequence.
You just proved his point. The Defiant (and the KDF Raptors and BCs) doesn't have access to those powers. Battlecloaking one in the middle of a fight would be suicide. It is not a BoP. The best it can do is evasive and EptE out of range, by which time the standard cloak would be available anyway.
just to troll my opponent, ive battlecloaked under pretty heavy fire by just activating quantum absorption, and the subspace armor thing, even in a tvaro. the singularity powers, namely quantum, is actually worth the power loss, its insanely good. theres like 2 or 3 other singularity powers/rom consoles that let you battleclaok with near 0 issue as well. try BCing your d'deridex with quantum and see how it goes! those temporary hitpoints are perfect for battle cloaking without consequence.
Ya they are... and its a great skill you get to use once every 2-3 min depending on your console setup. Using it also locks out all the other cool offensive options. (point taken of course Quantum Absorb is a fantastic cloaking skill)
Ya I agree... the power loss -40 for Singularity skills is a good trade.
It evens out more when you consider the nature of the fed warp cores added together.
I would say the power difference is more then just -40 if you are comparing to a Fed/Klink with a wise power setup. Those always on bonuses form there cores end up being a nice boon.
All in all I think sing vs core mechancis are balanced well.
On this topic... you can't really consider the T'varos power level trade of to be payment for the battle cloak. Because it isn't. The Singularity mechanic itself is the trade for the reduced power levels and reduced usefulness of the core in general.
I stand by my comparison of the T'varo to the Defiant... its simply the only romulan ship right now that compares. The others all compare to other escorts.
The Varo with a Tac in its Uni slot... has the exact same boff lay out as the defiant.
The shield mod is about =
The hull is pretty darn close to equal I know my varo is just a hair under 40k hull... the defiant my have a bit more but it isn't much. Of course the varo has a slightly better turn rate... so its pretty easy to say turn rate for 4-6k hull is a trade most PvPers would take in a heartbeat. Of course on paper it equals out.
Bottom line... I am not honestly seeing anything on paper that tells me the defiant shouldn't have a battle cloak when you compare it stat by stat with the Romulan Varo.
Yes the Varo is the Romulan Bird of prey... cause well it is the Romulan Bird of Prey. Really though it has almost nothing in common with the "raider" class Cryptic has invented. Yes it has a uni Lt Command slot... but does one Uni slot make it a raider ? If that's the case this game has lots of lock box raiders I guess.
PS... also in this comparison you have to consider the defiant cloak is in fact 2 steps back as the varo has the much better enhanced BC.
IT has less shields but more hull... turn is the same... in the case of the somrow.... it has one less tac console but a better boff layout.
The Romulan Varo... which imo is the closest comparison to the defiant. Gets a uni lt cmd... which I think makes the most sense as a Tac anyway giving it the same lay out as the defiant.
However it does have Very slighlty less hull... but I think the shields are about even. Turn is better. The Sing vs Warp core stuff is a wash... yes less power but the trade there is the Sing powers not the cloak.
I agree the Raptor and Defiant should both get battle cloaks... however simply trading a console slot does seem light doesn't it. Perhaps the defiant needs a 10% hull nerf to go with a Upgrade to its cloak console.
"IT has less shields but more hull... turn is the same... in the case of the somrow.... it has one less tac console but a better boff layout."
This is not entirely accurate. The Fleet Qin and Fleet Somraw both have higher hull and higher shield modifier than the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit. However, they're both slower in turning (Qin has 15 and Somraw has 16), which is important when it comes to escorts. Same with the lesser number of tac consoles. . .firepower is what defines an escort. On top of that, I think both the Raptors still have stupid turn axis points (the Qin definitely does), which further affects their turning. And yes, the Somraw does have a better boff station layout, but the Qin has the same one, and it's one of two cloaking raptors we have at that level.
Essentially, the raptors pay for their innate cloaks with crippling turn-rate/turn-axis issues that render them uncompetitive against Federation escorts. They've got a first-strike advantage. . .that's about it. The best escorts the KDF has is a destroyer, the Fleet Scourge. It's almost equivalent to the Fleet Patrol Escort (lacks the universal ensign, different console setup, slightly better turnrate). It also doesn't have a cloak. The Fleet Scourge is pretty much what any KDF escort pilot would be using in PvP, I think. The raptors just don't cut it. I'll be getting a Fleet Scourge myself at some point in the future.
Holy jeez, the Defiant is still one of the most powerful Escorts you can possibly get. It's maneuverable and hits tremendously hard, esp. the Fleet version. The regular cloak makes the ship capable of the best decloaking alpha strikes in the game, and people want to give it Battle Cloaks to weave in and out of combat freely? Not to mention it's well capable of staying in a fight?
The Raptor does require enormous throttle control to make it snap turn fast but you can not be within 5km of target and expect to keep a fast target in sight.
In comparison the Defiant turns like a sports car without the need to throttle snap to do ot. Its the definitive tight-turn champ, especially within 1-3km, and only a novice tries to out turn one in dogfight.
The Raptors may be the KDF escorts but they fly and play differently than fed ones.
on another note, theres an incredibly small number of rapters to choose from too, at fleet end game. those tier 3 and 4 ships languishing unused, they would make great MVAM and armatige station setup counterparts
just from my basic number crunching it appears "Subterfuge" trait is not granting any bonus when using a romulan battle cloak, you get the RBC bonus, but nothing else. just a curiousity at the moment but wondering if someone with a better understanding of how the in-game mechanics work could take a look it would be appreciated.
The Federation makes it a CRIME to operate a cloak in the alpha quadrant
The Romulans have limited battle cloaks on most ships
the defiant should be a t3 (commander) escort
with 2 fore and one aft weapon slot and NO cloak
Actually it's only considered a crime if it is a Federation designed cloak as that is against the treaty.
However, the cloak on the defiant was on loan from the Romulans with the stipulation that it only be used in the Gamma Quadrant and only operated and repaired by a Romulan. Considering that was before the escalation of the Dominion war it's not implausible that the stipulation was revoked, and there was only ever a Romulan operative that first episode with the cloak.
on another note, theres an incredibly small number of rapters to choose from too, at fleet end game. those tier 3 and 4 ships languishing unused, they would make great MVAM and armatige station setup counterparts
I know right?
All those wasted models, and people willing to pay for them.
Quite a shame. Cryptic simply won't give us what we are asking for.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I would say give the Defiant Retrofit/Fleet version a passive Standard Cloak and due away the cloak console which have no purpose since the only other ship on the fed side that can use it is the Galaxy-X.
As for the Battle cloak for the Defiant i would say NO... the Defiant class itself is one of the best ships at tier 5 and is superior to every BoP's and Raptors currently in the KDF Fleet line up, there's a reason why there are alot of fed players using Defiant's in pvp while there's barely nobody using raptors and a small amount of KDF players using BoP's while most KDF players nowadays are using Battle cruisers, Carriers, Lock Box and Lobi ships. And if the Defiant somehow get a battle cloak, All the Underpowered Raptors should have a battle cloak too. as for the Galaxy-X and all KDF battle cruisers having a battle cloak... i would say no to that as well.
Actually it's only considered a crime if it is a Federation designed cloak as that is against the treaty.
However, the cloak on the defiant was on loan from the Romulans with the stipulation that it only be used in the Gamma Quadrant and only operated and repaired by a Romulan. Considering that was before the escalation of the Dominion war it's not implausible that the stipulation was revoked, and there was only ever a Romulan operative that first episode with the cloak.
Was not that Defiant the first one and was it not also destroyed taking the cloak with it?
Yeah, do it. At this point, what could it possibly hurt? Besides, my Fed Romulan would be more than willing to loan my Fed Fed a new battle cloak to close the "canon loop hole".
BC for all!
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
I dont see the need for the defiant to have a battlecloak, i fly the fleet varient on my tac officer an its fine, I would however like to see the Aquarius get a battle cloak, bring its hull an turn rate in line with birds of prey and stick it on the zen store. I dont really see any use for the Aquarius atm feds have defiant, steam runner, fleet patrol an multivector all perform better than the aquarius, it has nothing that defines it.
The Raptor does require enormous throttle control to make it snap turn fast but you can not be within 5km of target and expect to keep a fast target in sight.
In comparison the Defiant turns like a sports car without the need to throttle snap to do ot. Its the definitive tight-turn champ, especially within 1-3km, and only a novice tries to out turn one in dogfight.
The Raptors may be the KDF escorts but they fly and play differently than fed ones.
Agreed. I've been flying a Hegh'ta (21 turnrate) in PvP and I can barely keep up with the Defiants half the time. Especially the ones chaining APO. I also have similar problems with the JHAS :P
the Aquarius just needs a better turn rate. 16 is extreamly silly on such a tiny ship. nothing has a 19 turn rate yet, give it that. it can be what the bug SHOULD be in game, agile but weak.
Here is what I think needs to happen. The Defiant should not get a battle cloak.
1. It had to have a Romulan operator.
2. The Defiant was destroyed that had it.
3. The Federation has a treaty about cloaks
A. Does it say they wil not use
B. does it say they will not develop
4. Does the Kilngon faction have an equvelient style ship. If yes give it, if no don't.
Here is how you make the Federation players happy. In order to give the Federation a carrier the Catians had to develop it. The elite Stalker Fighters Have BC. (Even though the c store version does not). Why not let the Catian race develop a Bird of Prey style ship. Some type of Tier 5 battle frigat. Almost the same stats as a Bird of Prey but with more fixed bridge officer stations. The fixed bridge officer stations would allow the Catian ship to have a third aft weapon. This is only an idea and can be debated because there might be something I did not think about.
Comments
Taking all that into account I'm no longer in favor of giving the defiant a battle cloak, I don't want to give up the pros I enjoy with the defiant. So just leave it the way it is IMHO.
one more slot to use :P
The T'varo is a bird-of-prey if I'm not mistaken (sorry returned to the game 2 weeks ago, not 100% on the romulan ships yet), compare it to the Hegh'ta or the B'rel depending on your version, certainly not the defiant.
The Qin raptor has issues that the Dev refuse to fix (such as the busted turn axis), however it is the only comparison without getting into fleet and zen store ships.
With that in mind, the defiant and Qin are a wash defensively and Boff wise; the Defiant has more shields but the Qin has more hull, and the two ships have identical Boff layouts.
Unfortunately, giving a BC to the Raptor would make the BoP rather pointless, except from a solo or gimmick standpoint, since it has less hull, fewer tac consoles, and fewer overall Boff slots. If you could become a stronger raiding ship, with more staying power, in a BCing raptor, then why would you want to be in a BoP?
Meaning that the Defiant would have to brought down a few notches in various categories (doesn't have to be BoP levels because the BoP has other advantages). But it would need to be something more significant than just a console slot, more along the lines or loosing a Tac console slot (on the fleet version) and an aft weapon slot.
Support a KDF equivalent to the Vesta Here
A cloaked defiant would be
t3
two forward weapons one Aft weapon
one lt sci one lt eng one ens tac
and would lose its cloak on average once every mission for ten minutes
It would also only be operational in the GAMMA quadrent
Pay $25 for a ship with just a standard Battle cloak with no special console?
Yeah, the cloak console isn't much, but at least I can put it on any Tactical Escort variant. But, with no console, it doesn't seem like $25 for a T5 ship is worth it. Not to mention there wouldn't be any purpose to by the Z-store ship, when you can get the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit for $5 less. They'd have to replace that console with something else.
NOPE.
But, then it would be hard to justify $25 for a T5 ship with no consoles. They'd have to replace it with something else.
Well lets look at your arguement from the standpoint of "Gave us a cloak". If I give somebody I frequently war with anything its going to be the oldest, easyest to break...most un-reliable piece of junk I can muster. Her cloak according to the series was enourmous, which as technology goes. Seems to indicate a primative design, now your ship is also not using the design that the defiant had. But a Federation constructed version of it.
Another way to look at it, is your ship the same USS Defiant that got blewed up with a cloak... Since the Defiant that had a cloak kinda got pwned by Breen.
Dunno if the Romulan warranty covers Breen Energy Dampening Pwn. But I doubt it.
They practically need their own subforum. And they always play out pretty much the same. They don't usually turn up in the PvP forum, though. Mainly because the guys who are best equipped to blow the arguments into atoms tend to hang out here.
So I'll just echo what I and other people have said many times: Give every KDF Raptor and Battlecruiser a battle cloak, and give every Fed ship better cloak detection, and then we can talk about it.
Otherwise, it usually boils down to getting something for nothing, with no trade-offs, just because it looks like the Defiant.
Can you imagine giving Raptors and Battlecruisers -- which are already effective starships -- a battle cloak? With no trade-offs? Why then should a Defiant get one?
Here's an idea... equip the cloak and the Impulse Capacitance "Afterburner" console. Make your pass, hit the gas, and fly away out of combat range to recloak.
"But that would undermine the firepower and turn rate that the Defiant brings to a fight!"
Exactly.
Battle cloaking ships are not meant to be dogfighters... they're supposed to be hit and run strafers. If you want to turn a perfectly good Defiant into a hit-and-run ship, feel free.
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really not sure how i feel ether way though currently
It would seem to weaken the arguments against it, doesn't it?
But the warbirds pay for that ability with reduced power levels and no singularity charge and all of the normal drawbacks of using it. I can't imagine trying to cloak a D'D in the middle of a fight... you'd get hammered unless you're also using other powers like Jam/Scramble Sensors or hull heals in order to get away with it.
BoP's pay for it with weaker hull and less crew, and it's effectiveness is very situational.
The people who want battle cloak for the Defiant tend not to want to give up anything to get it.
Battlecruisers and Raptors are pretty well effective without it -- and having it would TRIBBLE around with their strengths. Surprise attacks are one thing, but those ships aren't meant to be used like that (in and out of cloak). Neither is the Defiant.
I agree that it doesn't seem to make much sense that the Defiant cloak is a console... except for the fact that the Retrofit is a C-Store ship and the cloak is that ship's special ability and it is the only way the Fleet version can equip a cloak in line with the special consoles of every other Fleet ship variant.
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It disappeared, and a few seconds later it exploded. The battle cloak made a big difference there, didn't it? I'm sure tons of Defiant users want to be on the wrong end of this, I guess. :cool:
just to troll my opponent, ive battlecloaked under pretty heavy fire by just activating quantum absorption, and the subspace armor thing, even in a tvaro. the singularity powers, namely quantum, is actually worth the power loss, its insanely good. theres like 2 or 3 other singularity powers/rom consoles that let you battleclaok with near 0 issue as well. try BCing your d'deridex with quantum and see how it goes! those temporary hitpoints are perfect for battle cloaking without consequence.
You just proved his point. The Defiant (and the KDF Raptors and BCs) doesn't have access to those powers. Battlecloaking one in the middle of a fight would be suicide. It is not a BoP. The best it can do is evasive and EptE out of range, by which time the standard cloak would be available anyway.
Ya they are... and its a great skill you get to use once every 2-3 min depending on your console setup.
Ya I agree... the power loss -40 for Singularity skills is a good trade.
It evens out more when you consider the nature of the fed warp cores added together.
I would say the power difference is more then just -40 if you are comparing to a Fed/Klink with a wise power setup. Those always on bonuses form there cores end up being a nice boon.
All in all I think sing vs core mechancis are balanced well.
On this topic... you can't really consider the T'varos power level trade of to be payment for the battle cloak. Because it isn't. The Singularity mechanic itself is the trade for the reduced power levels and reduced usefulness of the core in general.
I stand by my comparison of the T'varo to the Defiant... its simply the only romulan ship right now that compares. The others all compare to other escorts.
The Varo with a Tac in its Uni slot... has the exact same boff lay out as the defiant.
The shield mod is about =
The hull is pretty darn close to equal I know my varo is just a hair under 40k hull... the defiant my have a bit more but it isn't much. Of course the varo has a slightly better turn rate... so its pretty easy to say turn rate for 4-6k hull is a trade most PvPers would take in a heartbeat. Of course on paper it equals out.
Bottom line... I am not honestly seeing anything on paper that tells me the defiant shouldn't have a battle cloak when you compare it stat by stat with the Romulan Varo.
Yes the Varo is the Romulan Bird of prey... cause well it is the Romulan Bird of Prey. Really though it has almost nothing in common with the "raider" class Cryptic has invented. Yes it has a uni Lt Command slot... but does one Uni slot make it a raider ? If that's the case this game has lots of lock box raiders I guess.
PS... also in this comparison you have to consider the defiant cloak is in fact 2 steps back as the varo has the much better enhanced BC.
"IT has less shields but more hull... turn is the same... in the case of the somrow.... it has one less tac console but a better boff layout."
This is not entirely accurate. The Fleet Qin and Fleet Somraw both have higher hull and higher shield modifier than the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit. However, they're both slower in turning (Qin has 15 and Somraw has 16), which is important when it comes to escorts. Same with the lesser number of tac consoles. . .firepower is what defines an escort. On top of that, I think both the Raptors still have stupid turn axis points (the Qin definitely does), which further affects their turning. And yes, the Somraw does have a better boff station layout, but the Qin has the same one, and it's one of two cloaking raptors we have at that level.
Essentially, the raptors pay for their innate cloaks with crippling turn-rate/turn-axis issues that render them uncompetitive against Federation escorts. They've got a first-strike advantage. . .that's about it. The best escorts the KDF has is a destroyer, the Fleet Scourge. It's almost equivalent to the Fleet Patrol Escort (lacks the universal ensign, different console setup, slightly better turnrate). It also doesn't have a cloak. The Fleet Scourge is pretty much what any KDF escort pilot would be using in PvP, I think. The raptors just don't cut it. I'll be getting a Fleet Scourge myself at some point in the future.
You guys are on some serious crack here.
In comparison the Defiant turns like a sports car without the need to throttle snap to do ot. Its the definitive tight-turn champ, especially within 1-3km, and only a novice tries to out turn one in dogfight.
The Raptors may be the KDF escorts but they fly and play differently than fed ones.
R.I.P
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=10945951#post10945951
just from my basic number crunching it appears "Subterfuge" trait is not granting any bonus when using a romulan battle cloak, you get the RBC bonus, but nothing else. just a curiousity at the moment but wondering if someone with a better understanding of how the in-game mechanics work could take a look it would be appreciated.
Actually it's only considered a crime if it is a Federation designed cloak as that is against the treaty.
However, the cloak on the defiant was on loan from the Romulans with the stipulation that it only be used in the Gamma Quadrant and only operated and repaired by a Romulan. Considering that was before the escalation of the Dominion war it's not implausible that the stipulation was revoked, and there was only ever a Romulan operative that first episode with the cloak.
I know right?
All those wasted models, and people willing to pay for them.
Quite a shame. Cryptic simply won't give us what we are asking for.
As for the Battle cloak for the Defiant i would say NO... the Defiant class itself is one of the best ships at tier 5 and is superior to every BoP's and Raptors currently in the KDF Fleet line up, there's a reason why there are alot of fed players using Defiant's in pvp while there's barely nobody using raptors and a small amount of KDF players using BoP's while most KDF players nowadays are using Battle cruisers, Carriers, Lock Box and Lobi ships. And if the Defiant somehow get a battle cloak, All the Underpowered Raptors should have a battle cloak too. as for the Galaxy-X and all KDF battle cruisers having a battle cloak... i would say no to that as well.
Was not that Defiant the first one and was it not also destroyed taking the cloak with it?
R.I.P
Yeah, do it. At this point, what could it possibly hurt? Besides, my Fed Romulan would be more than willing to loan my Fed Fed a new battle cloak to close the "canon loop hole".
BC for all!
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Agreed. I've been flying a Hegh'ta (21 turnrate) in PvP and I can barely keep up with the Defiants half the time. Especially the ones chaining APO. I also have similar problems with the JHAS :P
Here is what I think needs to happen. The Defiant should not get a battle cloak.
1. It had to have a Romulan operator.
2. The Defiant was destroyed that had it.
3. The Federation has a treaty about cloaks
A. Does it say they wil not use
B. does it say they will not develop
4. Does the Kilngon faction have an equvelient style ship. If yes give it, if no don't.
Here is how you make the Federation players happy. In order to give the Federation a carrier the Catians had to develop it. The elite Stalker Fighters Have BC. (Even though the c store version does not). Why not let the Catian race develop a Bird of Prey style ship. Some type of Tier 5 battle frigat. Almost the same stats as a Bird of Prey but with more fixed bridge officer stations. The fixed bridge officer stations would allow the Catian ship to have a third aft weapon. This is only an idea and can be debated because there might be something I did not think about.
To be honest I'm sure that as soon as the Feds get the Battle Cloak, they will set their sights on the OP universals.