Remove Drops from Foundry (Green, Blue) (Allow Purple To remain)
Increase Credits earned per a mission completion to 250,00k (Cap).
Increase Dilithium Income to a 1500 Cap.
Reason: Drops from foundry are breaking the income for EC in the game.
Farming is just far to easy here, especially with player created maps like
BOA NEBULA FARM where killing 1 Ship results in the destruction of 20.
Fleet Star-Base
In place of the dilithium mine Idea, Create
a STO Official Map "Dilithium mine" that has
non-combat based tasks in a mine. This
Specific Mission is launched from the fleet star-base
and grants refined dilithium (up to 8000 A day).
I'm still a fan of the idea of a 100 zen Button that
will set the projects timers from 24 hours to 10 seconds)
I would call this "star-base candy" and it would generate
a good income rate for the game.
Fleet Upkeep is proving to be difficult to satisfy the condition
"Disband fleet" under an agreeable term. I however, am
looking at options at the moment like "if fleet drops below 5 players, Who
have not logged in, in 30 days" but this is still subject to abuse.
Give me feed back on some idea's of what will be an acceptable
condition to a deletion of a fleet.
Still working on the other aspects. Let me know
what you think of these.
You might want to read up on the Fleet Dilithium Mine Holding that Cryptic is planning on rolling out. (See the recent Tribble release notes).
Both similar and dissimilar to your concept. I think Cryptic's implementation is on the right track.
Drops from foundry are breaking the income for EC in the game.
Farming is just far to easy here, especially with player created maps like
BOA NEBULA FARM where killing 1 Ship results in the destruction of 20.
I submit that the immediate response to something like that is to report the mission as a Foundry exploit.
Long term, I think the right solution is to cap the number of drops any one player can collect during a mission, by any mechanism you choose to name that's fair to both solo players and teams.
Fleet Upkeep is proving to be difficult to satisfy the condition
"Disband fleet" under an agreeable term. I however, am
looking at options at the moment like "if fleet drops below 5 players, Who
have not logged in, in 30 days" but this is still subject to abuse.
Give me feed back on some idea's of what will be an acceptable
condition to a deletion of a fleet.
When all of the fleet members have left and the fleet is empty. Period.
If even one guy is left in the fleet, the possibility exists that the fleet and its' holdings can be revived by new members. If that one guy has put hundreds of thousands of Dilithium and other resources into fleet holdings, it's not fair that he should lose that through no fault of his own.
If Cryptic ever implemented anything like that, I'd never put even a single EC into a fleet holding ever again.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
The truth is the patching in this game is hideous, and everyone knows it.
I don't believe I'll argue with you on that point. Quality control on patch revisions does seem to be a weak area.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Long term, I think the right solution is to cap the number of drops any one player can collect during a mission, by any mechanism you choose to name that's fair to both solo players and teams.
Bluegeek, do you think that limitation should be applied to *all* content, or just Foundry missions? Because I thought there was a max EC limit to foundry missions.
If the former, though, I don't necessarily agree with it. I like getting loot from a mission and vendoring it afterwards. Call it an RPer stereotype if you will, but if the mission does not award loot, I have trouble caring about it. :X
All in all, I think Cryptic is doing some interesting things to the in-game economy for the super-rare stuff by giving fleet equipment that's as good or better than the super-expensive ultra-rare drops (fleet warp cores and engineering consoles). So I'm not a fan of calls to nerf loot-getting.
Then again, from my POV, Cryptic is on a serious roll since LOR.
Well They may not make it exactly the same, but as long as it serves the same
function i guess its ok.
Now we should start looking at the other major issue with Fleet bases, and
a counter option to level it faster.
Either we can do this through the suggested Zen button, or through
the officer system That i purposed. that a fleet has an officer in
charge of a specific field (Security , science, engineering etc).
Make it so that officers on the project reduce the game. up
to 5 officers per a project.
Purple Quality 10 % Per officer
Blue Quality 8% Per Officer
Green Quality 6% Per Officer
White Quality 4$ Per Officer
The Mining System needs to be in the fleet sector.
We absolutely need to find a way to encourage visiting and
activity through the fleet star-base.
For the foundry,
Its not just that Mission, its any mission for farming. Its better
for the interest of the economy, and the game to revise it so
that each mission gives up to
150,000 EC per a run
1250 Dilithium
this is much more stable and still encourages repeated
use of the foundry, and prevents economic abuse to the game.
As long as you have drops there, they will always find ways
around the fixes.
As for the Coders
Extremely slow patching is always
the case there is not many coders
or many dedicated coders to a game.
This is why i know there is a low amount "dedicated"
coders for STO. If it had, say even 5 Coders, it would
be patching content much much faster.
As for the financial side, It was stated on forums
that the game is reaching near its budget area,
as well as in interviews. This tells me we need
to address major income problems like
Fleets being used as banks.
Which brings me to my next point.
Who said the people using the fleet as a bank
put hundreds of thousends of dilithium into the fleet?
They just spammed a bunch of EC Slots.
Simple Solution to this problem, Just make
Bank tabs tied into the tier level.
Whats important is that level 0 and 1
have a very low amount.
There is also a more stable option to code in
the tabs being based on the fleets population
levels, that open projects based on the fleets
level, But would require it to stay above that level
(Other wise they would ninja recruit and still
use the fleet for a bank.
We also have to address the issue that some people
Intentionally use fleets as banks, but invite people
to level them for themselves (possibly to sell
invites later).
In the end a whole mess of problems comes from
not addressing these small issues, Ranging from
people not buying Bank/tab slots with zen (supporting
the game economically) to Economic abuse.
I dont care what you or anyone else thinks, I will
continue to believe that fleets being used as banks
and invites to fleets being sold for 10 millions is
abused and destructive to the game.
Lastly,
Consider this, If the game is indeed reaching its peak
to spending budget, How do you see the progression
of the game going? and its survival? Lets consider
the future, and make the Sto of today last, Who
cares if a few people get upset, its for the betterment
of the game, and its survival.
If the former, though, I don't necessarily agree with it. I like getting loot from a mission and vendoring it afterwards. Call it an RPer stereotype if you will, but if the mission does not award loot, I have trouble caring about it. :X
I can support purples being in there if its at its current rate.
Or a promised blue of XII Quality at the end. But only 1.
I think that higher EC/Dilithium rates are a very good approach.
and are generally much more stable to 200k EC a minute.
IT dont take much to review the games stats to see where
the inflation is coming from, and I am willing to wager
the two places of inflation are
Foundry
Invites to fleets for 10million.
And if the foundry is nerfed, chances
are those 10-12 days of farming will
prevent the 10 million buy-ins to fleet
(as people would gock and walk the
other way at such a ironious offer)
IT dont take much to review the games stats to see where
the inflation is coming from, and I am willing to wager
the two places of inflation are
Foundry
Invites to fleets for 10million.
The Foundry awards a max of about 750K EC per day, and I suspect it's lower than that. You make more from Tour the Universe if done twice during the hour, IIRC. I think it's more fun to get loot from pew-pewing the TRIBBLE out of Borg, Elachi, or Tal Shiar battleships, but hey, whatever generates credits the fastest.
Base invites for 10 million/fleet invites for 10 million (to buy a T5 ship) do not actually inflate the EC economy, since they aren't "new" EC being added to the system. Instead, it's reshuffling of the already existing EC in the game.
FWIW, I'm not in favor of additional deflationary pressures on the EC economy by means of EC generation restriction via loot drops (1) or logistically aggravating sinks like the 800 xp reputation projects which steal hypos and shield charges from you. I agree some sinks are needed, but not ones that make the game less fun.
(1) I think that was tried at the beginning of Season 7. The resulting forum rage was not pleasant.
There are many sink options for the game, Among them is the obvious Repairs for
damage.
I Really think this system is underused if at all used.
Imo, The repairs you gain from elites (to person, officer and ship)
should be applied to all levels.
I would Let any death have a repair rate on it, Repaired
at med bay or the ship enigineer in the starbase,
I am a firm believer that the fleet base is just not used
enough, and i strongly support a discout to using fleet
utilities like repairs. I strongly believe that the repairs
out of fleets should be vastly superior to that in a fleet.
Now, I am not sure how much this will agitate people, but its a good start in solving
the problems.
In regards to the 10 million, Your right and wrong.
It is this mechanic that allows for stockpiling, which directly effects economic
prices, This in return throws item prices into a state of inflation.
Think about it, people buying Destroyers for 70-90 Million credits, How are they
able to afford this?
If you are looking at foundry farming you are talking 120 days of farming (90mill).
Do you really think they are farming that much?
On top of this we need to address the possibility that the Gold farmer income is
coming from some where, and i hate to break it to you, But people With an
account with full characters all have 1 billion Ec, Are a danger to the game,
and likely the suppliers of these problems.
I Move for a reduction cap, - 2% OF wealth per a day, For any wealth over 25m on an
account to the point of reaching 250m (Account side).
Consider for a moment, there is reasons why things on AH Jump from 500k
to 25million in 1 quality level (and its not market demand when there is 1000 of them
on ah; just to squish that argument before its presented)
In regards to the 10 million, Your right and wrong.
It is this mechanic that allows for stockpiling, which directly effects economic
prices, This in return throws item prices into a state of inflation.
Think about it, people buying Destroyers for 70-90 Million credits, How are they
able to afford this?
If you are looking at foundry farming you are talking 120 days of farming (90mill).
Do you really think they are farming that much?
On top of this we need to address the possibility that the Gold farmer income is
coming from some where, and i hate to break it to you, But people With an
account with full characters all have 1 billion Ec, Are a danger to the game,
and likely the suppliers of these problems.
I Move for a reduction cap, - 2% OF wealth per a day, For any wealth over 25m on an
account to the point of reaching 250m (Account side).
Consider for a moment, there is reasons why things on AH Jump from 500k
to 25million in 1 quality level (and its not market demand when there is 1000 of them
on ah; just to squish that argument before its presented)
No, the starbase sales method is NOT an inflationary system, because the starbase sales does not create EC from the game and give it to players. Instead, it translates from player to player.
Now, the source of the inflation comes because there are an awful lot of players with an awful lot of EC. You appear to be under the impression that the only (fast) way to make money from the game is via foundry loot drops.
But here's the thing: for almost a year, there was no new content in the game. So the people who stayed during the great drought (March 2011 to F2P) generates A LOT of loot drops and a LOT of energy credits. These energy credits remained in circulation. When new stuff such as lockbox ships became available, the market was able to support these prices. The revised loot tables after Season 7 giving more Mk XII ultra rare weapons and vendor trash equipment has also added to EC inflation.
I really do not understand your intense bias against people with large quantities of energy credits. Can you explain why you're demanding they receive some sort of nasty punishment?
No, the starbase sales method is NOT an inflationary system, because the starbase sales does not create EC from the game and give it to players. Instead, it translates from player to player.
Now, the source of the inflation comes because there are an awful lot of players with an awful lot of EC. You appear to be under the impression that the only (fast) way to make money from the game is via foundry loot drops.
But here's the thing: for almost a year, there was no new content in the game. So the people who stayed during the great drought (March 2011 to F2P) generates A LOT of loot drops and a LOT of energy credits. These energy credits remained in circulation. When new stuff such as lockbox ships became available, the market was able to support these prices. The revised loot tables after Season 7 giving more Mk XII ultra rare weapons and vendor trash equipment has also added to EC inflation.
I really do not understand your intense bias against people with large quantities of energy credits. Can you explain why you're demanding they receive some sort of nasty punishment?
Maybe he doesn't have that kind of EC and is jealous and thus wants everyone 'on even footing' (IE in the same state he is)? It's just a guess though, based on past experiences on other gaming forums.
No, the starbase sales method is NOT an inflationary system, because the starbase sales does not create EC from the game and give it to players. Instead, it translates from player to player.
Now, the source of the inflation comes because there are an awful lot of players with an awful lot of EC. You appear to be under the impression that the only (fast) way to make money from the game is via foundry loot drops.
But here's the thing: for almost a year, there was no new content in the game. So the people who stayed during the great drought (March 2011 to F2P) generates A LOT of loot drops and a LOT of energy credits. These energy credits remained in circulation. When new stuff such as lockbox ships became available, the market was able to support these prices. The revised loot tables after Season 7 giving more Mk XII ultra rare weapons and vendor trash equipment has also added to EC inflation.
I really do not understand your intense bias against people with large quantities of energy credits. Can you explain why you're demanding they receive some sort of nasty punishment?
You are just repeating yourself, So ill do the same.
Lots of People with lots of money = High priced items on Ah
If you dident get the point before here it is one more time
>> If people have 90 million credits to buy a destroy, and they want it they will
spend that 90 million, however they will only do this on the condition they
know they can farm it back in X amount of time.
When you destroy this cap, you destroy the high EC Sale, and thus stabilize
the pricing ranges.
There is no need for anyone in this game to have 90 million EC. Its just
not needed. There for, really the Expansion cap on EC should not be up to 1billion
but maybe 50 million per a character.
High Income and specially Stockpiles on EC Cause gold farmers to come out of the
wood works. And i have only ever seen gold farmers defending mechanics that
allow them to horde billions of EC,credits, isk, gold.
Destroy the capability to stockpile, and you destroy them you make the game
unprofitable and you get the scum out of the game that are selling it to them.
You are just repeating yourself, So ill do the same.
Lots of People with lots of money = High priced items on Ah
If you dident [SIC] get the point before here it is one more time
>> If people have 90 million credits to buy a destroy [SIC], and they want it they will
spend that 90 million, however they will only do this on the condition they
know they can farm it back in X amount of time.
Or they see something phenomenally cool that they want to spend their EC on, knowing that they'll be out the 300-500 million EC for the better part of a year...but DARN, having that Bugship is cool.
There is no need for anyone in this game to have 90 million EC. Its just
not needed. There for, really the Expansion cap on EC should not be up to 1billion
but maybe 50 million per a character.
High Income and specially Stockpiles on EC Cause gold farmers to come out of the
wood works. And i have only ever seen gold farmers defending mechanics that
allow them to horde billions of EC,credits, isk, gold.
Destroy the capability to stockpile, and you destroy them you make the game
unprofitable and you get the scum out of the game that are selling it to them.
Alternatively, you are destroying one of the most fun parts of MMO metagaming: arbitrage.
Have you considered that it is FUN to make a profit buying and selling items? That there is something really, really cool about finding a Temporal Destroyer that may be priced about 10 million too low, buying it, and reselling it? Watching a significant asset appreciate then reselling it is a pretty big accomplishment, in my opinion. Not having the ability in this game would be a gameplay change I STRONGLY oppose. (1) Farming, be it for dilithium, EC, marks will always exist (and is indeed necessary!) in this game.
Bringing up "gold farmers", by which I assume you refer exclusively to black market, TOS-violating, direct cash-for-EC third parties, is not something anyone is defending and I respectfully request that you apologize for comparing me (and others) on this thread to them.
Destroy the ability for gamers to have vast sums of gold/ec/dilithium/whathaveyou, and you destroy about 75% of the fun of gaming.
What's the fun of an RPG where I cannot get massive amounts of loot?
(1) ...Okay, so it's not the most IP-themed fun I can get. But neither is having my stolen Fed Temporal Destroyer massacare Hirogen!
Take for example leveling, its work, but often
people enjoy this more then they enjoy the
end game content; none the less its work.
Fun is a very subjective term and we
need to keep that is a realistic scope, but
none the less to much fun is destructive.
Take for example a gamer that only games
does not work etc. He/she can destroy their lives
because of to much fun.
So think about this and learn an important value
that balance is important and vital to a healthy life
or in this case a healthy video game.
You dont need 9 billion credits, its far beyond the point of fun.
Its better for 1 EC to be valued at 10, then 1ec be valued at 00.25
Keep this in mind. if you have hordes of ec and it was easy to get it
it has no real value, and no real sense of accomplishment comes from that.
In fact i'd go as far as to say, this person is corrupted with greed if all they think
about is $$
in short, you can have accomplishment with out 9billion ec.
Destroy the ability for gamers to have vast sums of gold/ec/dilithium/whathaveyou, and you destroy about 75% of the fun of gaming
This is the biggest load of BS i have heard.
a very very small amount of players are focused on economics. realistically 75% of the fun comes from
pve, 20% from pvp, and the rest from other aspects of the game (economics etc).
What's the fun of an RPG where I cannot get massive amounts of loot?
we are not talking about loot exactly, we are talking about EC.
you want a stabilized solution, buy the look on the ah, go out in the universe and farm it.
you just shouldent be able to get 100 items in 10 minutes. no successful game allows
this, and for good reason.
Bringing up "gold farmers", by which I assume you refer exclusively to black market, TOS-violating, direct cash-for-EC third parties, is not something anyone is defending and I respectfully request that you apologize for comparing me (and others) on this thread to them.
No one said you or others are gold farmers. It was stated the most of the time the billionares of games
are the ones selling the isk, credits etc to them for RL money.
So if you are jumping on that bit, you are playing defensive for no reason, and that is suspicious behavior, imo.
Take for example leveling, its work, but often
people enjoy this more then they enjoy the
end game content; none the less its work.
Fun is a very subjective term and we
need to keep that is a realistic scope, but
none the less to much fun is destructive.
Take for example a gamer that only games
does not work etc. He/she can destroy their lives
because of to much fun.
So think about this and learn an important value
that balance is important and vital to a healthy life
or in this case a healthy video game.
You dont need 9 billion credits, its far beyond the point of fun.
Its better for 1 EC to be valued at 10, then 1ec be valued at 00.25
Keep this in mind. if you have hordes of ec and it was easy to get it
it has no real value, and no real sense of accomplishment comes from that.
In fact i'd go as far as to say, this person is corrupted with greed if all they think
about is $$
in short, you can have accomplishment with out 9billion ec.
This is the biggest load of BS i have heard.
a very very small amount of players are focused on economics. realistically 75% of the fun comes from
pve, 20% from pvp, and the rest from other aspects of the game (economics etc).
we are not talking about loot exactly, we are talking about EC.
you want a stabilized solution, buy the look on the ah, go out in the universe and farm it.
you just shouldent be able to get 100 items in 10 minutes. no successful game allows
this, and for good reason.
No one said you or others are gold farmers. It was stated the most of the time the billionares of games
are the ones selling the isk, credits etc to them for RL money.
So if you are jumping on that bit, you are playing defensive for no reason, and that is suspicious behavior, imo.
uhmari ..thats probably the biggest load of TRIBBLE i ever heard.
if u want everyone to be poor..go to north korea ...
this is a game ..and some people actually enjoy the loot part..infact..psychologically speaking ...its a well proven area of enjoyment ...the part where people like to get new shiny stuff and get the best deal and get more money .
u dont have to be lifeless .u dont have to be buying it from anyone ..u just have to take the time to enjoy the game and bit by bit learn how to make EC fast and easy ..same as me ..im just an FTP which came here soon after FTP came online..yet even though i spent a buk load of EC ..billions by now..i still have well over 1bil ..a bug and all the stuff i wanted and still have fun and a life .
oh ..and i work also in the meantime..day trader ..btw..so game economics came easy for me .
people wanting 50mil cap are poor people who are lazy and instead of learning how to make EC want everyone to come down to their lvl ..
well if u dont have time to learn the ropes u have no business playing this game or any descent MMO with a learning curve, cause making funds in this game is so so so much easier then lets say EVE online ..or guild wars ..
no im not gonna share my ways for it..i will just say its possible and im not even working hard on it being a lazy doffer that i am .
oh ..and if people are so pressed for money ..go flip a burger for 1 week ..and then ull have all the zen u want in this game :P...its either that or keep crying here for something u know fully well will never come to pass.
So think about this and learn an important value
that balance is important and vital to a healthy life
or in this case a healthy video game.
The balance in a MMO (especially a f2p one) is between how much incentive to give the player to pay money for the game while still providing enough fun to have them stick around in order for those incentives to become noticable.
STO has a fairly good balance there.
You dont need 9 billion credits, its far beyond the point of fun.
Keep this in mind. if you have hordes of ec and it was easy to get it
it has no real value, and no real sense of accomplishment comes from that.
Money cap is at 1 billion. There will never be an item worth more than 1 billion because you cannot carry enough to purchase it.
Free money cap is at 10 million (with a Zen option to up the cap to the max) so the majority of items will not be worth more than 10 million because that's limiting the market of the seller and in many cases other people will make more sales cutting under that mark than those who don't.
Again, EC is the cheapest currency in the game by design.
we are not talking about loot exactly, we are talking about EC.
you want a stabilized solution, buy the look on the ah, go out in the universe and farm it.
you just shouldent be able to get 100 items in 10 minutes. no successful game allows
this, and for good reason.
The majority of those items will be vendored (or recycled if you don't have the inventory space) and only the choice few will actually sell for more than their EC value.
Plus those 100 items in 10 minutes is only valid for that time period, as by then you've probably hit the foundry loot drop cap and thus you'll be looking at 100 items every 45 minutes or so.
So if you are jumping on that bit, you are playing defensive for no reason, and that is suspicious behavior, imo.
That's insinuating something, which is part of Ad Hominem tactics, which makes your reasoning fallacious.
Or in laymen terms, you're suggesting it, which provides reason, which makes your overall reasoning weak. Don't do it.
TOS violating currency-for-cash services get most of their in-game capital from compromised accounts. This is fact. Don't use them.
The balance in a MMO (especially a f2p one) is between how much incentive to give the player to pay money for the game while still providing enough fun to have them stick around in order for those incentives to become noticable.
STO has a fairly good balance there.
This game has little to no incentive to stay around after hitting level 50.
I dont know what your playing, But it seems to be an entirely different game.
I admire what the devs have done here, But the truth must be spoken.
End game content is near non-existant, and if is existent is repetitive.
Linear progression (Doing the same thing over and over) Gets old after about a month.
The majority of those items will be vendor ed (or recycled if you don't have the inventory space) and only the choice few will actually sell for more than their EC value.
Plus those 100 items in 10 minutes is only valid for that time period, as by then you've probably hit the foundry loot drop cap and thus you'll be looking at 100 items every 45 minutes or so.
That's my exact point. And it needs to stop because its leaking very large amounts
of Income into the game.
Money cap is at 1 billion. There will never be an item worth more than 1 billion because you cannot carry enough to purchase it.
Free money cap is at 10 million (with a Zen option to up the cap to the max) so the majority of items will not be worth more than 10 million because that's limiting the market of the seller and in many cases other people will make more sales cutting under that mark than those who don't.
Again, EC is the cheapest currency in the game by design.
Repeating game mechanics does not validate your position.
Yes the majority are free to play, but the current Sto system is designed
almost to the point where zen is so easy to get you never need to pay.
This needs to be fixed in my opinion, I would like to see the following changes
Specific items are moved from Zen store to dilithium (things that dont have to deal with Graphics, Convenience) (Example, fleet ship modules)
Dilithium can no longer be sold for zen, But zen can be sold for dilithium.
EC and Dilithium now can be changed (either way) for each other
Add a 10% Cap on both Dilithium and EC To be counted as a "tax" Like Exchange has. Will act as a stablizer to the economy.
This will resolve the games low income problems. and allow it to be free to play
so the game is still enjoyable.
EC needs to be the backbone of trade in the game, the life force if you will.
And dilithium needs to become more accessable (about another 10-15%).
So i would allow Dilithium to be bought up to 8000 cap on the exchange
with EC, and ec to sell for Dilithium.
These changes would vastly balance the mechanics, Provided that Foundry
recieve my purposed change of
Missions now grant up to 150,000 Credits, and 1000 dilithium ore. 8% Change to recieve
a mark XII Item on completion of mission.
That's insinuating something, which is part of Ad Hominem tactics, which makes your reasoning fallacious.
Or in laymen terms, you're suggesting it, which provides reason, which makes your overall reasoning weak. Don't do it.
TOS violating currency-for-cash services get most of their in-game capital from compromised accounts. This is fact. Don't use them.
Just as you stated i said something i did not. Lesson learnt here, don't assume.
1 Billion cap for everyone, 10 million for free accounts (with 500 zen upgrade to the 1 billion mark.)
Again repeating mechanics. And again i say, Buy (zen) cap should be 50 or 100 million a character, not 1 billion.
All I would like to say, is that Umari does not represent me. Every day he comes into ESD Zone, spamming/spouting his ideas, allegedly speaking for some sort of larger consortium, trying to recruit people on his side.
I hope the devs are aware enough to realize this man just suffers from delusions of grandeur, and really just speaks for himself.
I hope not because most of those ideas will just kill the game and turn it into a chore.
If I want 350mil EC sat in my account, Ill grind for it and have it, then probably blow it on all sorts of stuff for my multiple toons.
Like many, I have dropped millions of hard ground Dilithium, so dont tell me we are all freeloaders in fleets.
You say you spoke to 50 people in fleets? My fleet has 497 people in it, thats a much larger cross section, plenty of other fleets out there with that number, there are many thousands of players on the game. So you spoke to 50 and think thats the concensus across the board of what needs to be done?
Your combat ideas are frankly speaking, stupid. You would actually remove most of the sci and engineer abilities that make them effective.
Im sorry but Id suggest you go home and uninstall STO, you seem to have zero concept of it and seem to want to tear all the fun away (Strangely thats the reason why we play games. FUN).
Is not Valid against the Argument for the purposed changes.
Lets look at the problems in depth.
Game breaking builds (Problem 1)
3-4 People Perma tanked by 1 Cruiser
Permanant Crowd control By 1 science vessel
1 Shot Vollies From Tactical ships
Tell me, Why do you feel this are an ok thing in the game? Please Address the question, Not if there is or is not counters to them.
On that note,Lets address the next issue.
Limited Ship Builds (Problem #2)
limited countering forces people to have a specific build there by making
all pvp builds Predictable and non-unique.
For example, there is only 1 ubar build for any of the three builds, though granted
it may have an optional 1-2 mods that can be customized, in general it uses the same
concepts, builds and skills.
What we learn from this is that either
1) Some items,skills combinations need a nerf
2) Others need to be brought up to par with them
If things are as stated in problem 1, Generally speaking your looking at a nerf,
however if these items are never generally used, you are looking at a upgrade to them
and a nerf to the ones that are breaking game content.
Tell me Where there is a problem in that logic, Since you are an "experienced designer and know what you are talking about"
Skill Problems
The game is all about mushing buttons to the point that its just pure button spam, and gear is playing a much lower level in it then it should. On top of this, The Button spam of skills are the focal point of the game breaking builds (IE instant kills, perma cc, unkillable Tanks).
So the solution is to resolve the Combination use of the skills.
So argue against those logics if you are capable, But i think it will go to
"I want to 1 shot everything and be ZOMG and no one should compete because
i have a ubar awesome epeen". <-- because this is 99% of this forum.
"I want to 1 shot everything and be ZOMG and no one should compete because
i have a ubar awesome epeen". <-- because this is 99% of this forum.
uhmari :rolleyes:. Please, please stop drinking the Kool-Aid.
Anyhoo, have you even noticed the engi and sic captains here? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure they make up more than 1% of forum posters. Despite evidence to the contrary, this isn't ETO. It's STO. Carriers, for example, can't OHKO, no matter how well they're built. About half of the sci ships in STO can't insta-kill either - they just don't have the tac slots - and those that can have to lay a ****load of debuffs on the target to do so. As for cruisers, well, just consider an engi in a cruiser.
Now, a somewhat strange request. Could someone please start a "How to fix Engineers in Space" thread? I have a few ideas, but, being a silver, I can't start a thread.
No ship can permatank against a good ship.
That's why teamwork is needed.
Oneshot kills also happened in the TV program's and films.
Each and every person that plays this game, plays it because deepdown they are the 'hero ship' or hero away party'.
You take the possibility away to survive, no ones interested.
With your idea of how combat should be, people will either pop near instantly or never pop.
To be honest, it sounds like you use a cruiser and this is one of those 'nerf cruisers so it turns like an escort and is more powerful' just in a mega convoluted way.
Some points I do agree with, the star bases aren't used enough.
You even seem to fail to see that anti proton weapons are no different from all the others of the same level, they just crit more, which is their extra power.
If anything, elite disruptors are the odd ones out.
No ship can permatank against a good ship.
That's why teamwork is needed.
Lies, Iv seen it, Ill go pvp later and fraps, then post it on youtube for all to watch.
Oneshot kills also happened in the TV program's and films.
That is a tv show, w here combat lasts 30 seconds and is repeated once a week (if your lucky).
This is a video game that needs balances. Lets be realistic in the approach on the two.
Unless its Counter strike based games, 1 shotting should not exist. Imo, No space mmo
should have controlled repeatable 1 shots, Ever. This is a utter show of lack of development capability, Intelligence on design, and implementation of a combat system.
Each and every person that plays this game, plays it because deepdown they are the 'hero ship' or hero away party'. You take the possibility away to survive, no ones interested.
Ramble ramble, "I want to live forever" = Not balanced
With a statement like the above, you only confirm that 99% of the game wants to be
UberUltrazomg powerful running around 1 shooting noobs, and claiming your "all that and a box of kanar"
With your idea of how combat should be, people will either pop near instantly or never pop.
Incorrect, Wrong, Not accurate. Im going to start laying it on thick to you guys who are advocating pro-ubermode on everyone.
Again i explain by the following >
Imagine all skills are taken out of the game > This is how combat should look at feel.
Skills should only be there to help. In short, SKills are
1. Way to strong
2. Way to spammable
3. To many combinations at once break the games combat system
To be honest, it sounds like you use a cruiser and this is one of those 'nerf cruisers so it turns like an escort and is more powerful' just in a mega convoluted way.
I want cruisers to tank, and i want them to do some more damage to. I just dont want
perma tanks, just like i dont support perma cc or instant kills.
Some points I do agree with, the star bases aren't used enough.
Mmmhmm.. Why you went to weapons then this then back to weapons... /shrug
You even seem to fail to see that anti proton weapons are no different from all the others of the same level, they just crit more, which is their extra power.
If anything, elite disruptors are the odd ones out.
Its not the weapons thats breaking the system, Its the skills.
I would like to get on the dev server and test out a battle of just weapons vs weapons.
The simple solution
after reviewing more, I have come to the conclusion the following
changes will balance the combat system
Balance to Proc rates (Still seeking a good option that does not require coding).
Officer Skills now have 3 types of classifications, Tactical, Science, Engineering. You can only use one of the three types at a time. it will put officers on their own CD timer 1 skill per CD.
This means that you cannot pop two tactical officer abilities at once, but can pop
a tactical and engineering.
Allow all officers to reach captain and to have access to 4 skills in space at any time.
Turn Formations into permanant on "aura's" that tactical ships can swap between (No GCD).
Buff all Regeneration of time effects (Science) Remove instant repairs and grant them to Engineer only (So engie = large instant repairs, Sci = Over time).
code a new mechanic that no heal can exceed 35% of health.
I'll rephrase a bit on one bit.
No ship can permatank against a good group of ships. Its called teamwork, scrubs, debuffs, holds, placates then the killing blow.
You spoke to 50 people, I'd hazard a guess those 50 people have had butthurt in PvP so cry nerf to everything.
You say cannons need less damage, beams need more!
Beams carry more damage at long range, cannons are all but useless above 5km anyway.
I've seen out of the many hundreds of PvPs I've done plenty of beam cruisers that have been a real PITA when it comes to keeping shields up against them.
I really highly suggest you go back and do some research into the game mechanics.
What you are suggesting is a complete game breaker, end of.
I'd also suggest going into the queues and see how long you last against a team that works together as one, it won't be very long.
You also seem to mistake what cruisers are really for. Cruisers are an anvil, escorts are a hammer, the enemy is the metal between. Without the anvil, the hammer only dents and makes noise against the metal, without the hammer, the metal sits on the anvil and does nothing. Combined together though, the hammer with the support of the anvil can bend, shape and destroy the metal.
I am growing very Tired of this Assumption that just because i want to balance the game
that i suck at pvp. You need to check your logic, because the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
I have talked to well over 50 people, We have 5 fleets in our group that
feedback on these issues. we have forums dedicated to this very specific
task to feed back about the parts of the games that are broken, or
need improvement.
I cant give you all of my knowledge instantly, because you cant teach someone
a university level degree in 5 minutes. But Let me explain a few things, because
you are making general mistakes in your statements that shows a lack of understanding
and even knowing of the full way i purposed for game changes. (Likely you got lazy and did not read through all of it.)
Why Cannons need a nerf
Note: Stability is defined as a constant rate; Please take note of this for the below information.
When it comes to Dps Rates, General Cannon dps in PvE is around 2.8k to 3.4k.
Further In pvp, You do not encounter 1 Shot vollies from Beams. This means
That they are more "stable" as a weapon. On top of this even in pve we
experience extremely fast kill rates. This tells us cannons are just out of their
zone for balance. The problem is, everyone running around with ubar builds
hate this from being changed because they want to "epeen" how pro they are
Conclusion: Cannons need a balance, Possibly increasing their effective range, but decreasing their over all Dps. On top of this skills that coordinate with them need a
nerf bat, Likely the best solution to this is a prevention of combinations.
Beam Changes
Beams are fairly stable, however in a battle 1v1 Escort vs Cruiser, The cruiser usually wins
This is due to the fact that the cruiser just absorbs a great amount of damage (to much).
On top of this, Cruisers (and science vessels) in general suffer from a major problems
leveling in PvE. We need to look at a way to diversify the classes, So they feel different.
This is where beams come in Beams Dps output is generally around 1400-1600 Dps.
This means that the dps on a cannon is near double of that on a beam. This is what
is killing the pvp mechanics for Cruisers and Science vessels. Now, I don't Agree
that they should pwn everything but i think the danger factor on the two need to come
up, and since beams are the weak link, its a logical conclusion.
Skills
When it comes to skills, the game depends on them far to greatly.
and because of this you get the broken concepts. It may be a better
idea out right for the game to investigate a massive dynamic change
to the skill system. This is because its the skill system that is primarily
contributing to the above problems (Perma cc, 1 v-kills etc)
This is Why i was left to the conclusion of control mechanics on the skills.
Think about it a little. many skills are useless, and many more are over powered
and even larger problems are that most skills depend on 1-2 specific skills to counter
These Contributing factors are leading to forcing players on specific Builds. Which
is exactly what we see now. 2-3 Good builds for escorts. However, Do you see
1 shot, Ubar beam builds? No. The funny thing about this is that beam has all
the utility cannons are all the damage and yet that damage is so high, it makes
the utility useless. This is what many weapons (like plasma) are experiencing
and even shielding has this fundamental problem which leads to the next point
Shielding
What i am advocating here is that all items are viable on all ships.
For example, Normal or regenerative shielding should be good on
an escort, or cruiser. However there should be a specific set of
circumstances where this specific type is superior. For example
Regenerative shielding on a Science vessel. (Please pay attention
to the idea of the example, not the exact mechanics because i am going
to continue to purpose an alternate change to make pvp better)
I think there is a simple solution to this, and that we got it all wrong.
I want to change the bonus's on ships to give a bonus different to shields
then current.
In your mind for a moment to set all ships to 1.0 Bonus.
Now i ask a question, Does any type of shielding appeal more then another?
If so What type?
Most people will answer Resilient. This is my exact point when it comes to weapons
and shielding.
You should want to take a type of shielding, or weapon because of its benefits
and weaknesses, not because its so much better that the others are useless.
so I want to see the following stats
Regenerative shielding
10,500 Hp
Regenerates 350 Shields Per 3 Seconds
10% Bleeding
Resilient Shielding
11,500 Hp
Regenerates 180 Shielding per 6 seconds
15% absorb
Normal shielding
13,500 Hp
Regenerates 230 Shield per 6 seconds
10% Absorb, 5% Bleed
Covariant Shielding
15,500 Hp
Regenerates 200 Shields per 4 seconds
Reduces cannon damage by 10%
Reduces beam damage by 5%
Paratronic Shielding
22,500 Hp
Regenerates 90 shields per 6
15% Bleeding
On top of this i would reduce all hull rates by 25%.
Lastly, I would give each type of ship a special effect when modulating shielding
(Like For, aft, All etc).
Tactical : + 10% Movement speed, + 9 Agility
Engineer: Removes CC.
Science: -2 seconds on Timer to remodulate
Couple of reasons why your suggestions are getting no traction:
1) They are utterly unworkable given the current state of the game. The suggestions you are making range from a total overhaul of the way the game is monetized to a complete working of combat mechanics, class balance, and ship design. In other words, you want to make a completely new game (I guess keeping maybe the engine and art assets?). That you find this even plausible demonstrates how out of touch with the realities of game development you really are.
2) Your attitude is ridiculous - you are new to the game, yet you think you understand it well enough to completely overhaul it. You act as though you and your 'team' have some sort of legitimate call to reform, when for all we know it's just you (and maybe a few sock puppet accounts you created to confirm your story). You are not, in any way, official, yet you try (deliberately, I assume) to word your posts in such a way that people believe you are doing real development work, and not just making up nonsensical solutions to problems that exist only in your own mind.
3) Your solutions, right down the line, are worse than the problems they purport to solve, often rising to the level of outright inherent contradictions. As an example: The problem with space combat (in PVP, I assume) you say is that ships can tank forever and tacs can one-shot anyone. Wait. What? So, ships live too long, but also die too fast? Or is it more the case that some players (*cough*you*cough*) are making suggestions based on limited PvP experiences wherein they found that they couldn't beat a tanking cruiser, yet were themselves easy meat for a passing escort? I have news for you - that's not a balance problem, that's a player skill problem.
Your solution to this "problem" is to seek to remove buff stacking from the game, and reduce the overall effectiveness of BOFF powers such that combat becomes closer to how the game would play with no powers at all. I'll tell you what that would be like: BORING. Boff powers right now are the primary way players "interact" with combat - removing them would result in less player interaction (boring) and reducing the power and frequency of BOFF abilities would mean fights would tend to be inevitable outcomes that nonetheless grind on for a minute or more (boring AND frustrating).
Now, I know you are very much in love with your ideas, and I'm sure your cognitive dissonance will allow you to cook up a response that sounds reasonable to you, so I want to be clear here: Do not mistake this scathing rebuke as an attempt to engage you in some form of debate. It is not. I'm sure you think this is proof that people are unwilling to engage with your ideas in a reasonable discussion, and to a point, you are right. No reasonable discussion is possible here, because we can't even agree on what reality is. When it is raining, and I feel the weather is bad, I'm perfectly willing to entertain a debate about why rain might, in fact, be good. I am not, however, willing to debate whether or not rain is actually magical unicorn tears that fall from marshmallow clouds.
Well over 50 people?
Big wow, I have more people on my friends list.
You talk about balance, yet essentially you are throwing further out by decreasing the one thing that does do as described.
You are talking a complete rebuild of the mechanics to make you and 50 people happy.
Even 200 people in this game isn't a reasonable cross section.
You obviously don't understand the mechanics, no speculation needed. This thread is proof.
In any game that has a 'skill structure' requires uber builds to be competitive with high level stuff.
What you want to instigate is a complete rebuild of a system to fix minor issues that DO need to be addressed.
For the love of god, learn to play the game or go play minecraft.
You also said you wanted feedback to adjust stuff, nearly everyone who has posted so far has said you are wrong, yet you arrogantly continue and call everyone else wrong.
Candy i love it I am a Huge Troll on forums, If you want to troll-off, Let
me get under a bridge and then we can start..I need about 15 minutes
to change costume first...
1) They are utterly unworkable given the current state of the game. The suggestions you are making range from a total overhaul of the way the game is monetized to a complete working of combat mechanics, class balance, and ship design. In other words, you want to make a completely new game (I guess keeping maybe the engine and art assets?). That you find this even plausible demonstrates how out of touch with the realities of game development you really are.
What grounds do you speak from? Did i ever mention an entire overhaul to the pvp system?
OR did i not mention simple changes like
Limiting the amount of skills used at a time (Minor coding fixes)
Reducing Dps rates on weapons (Stat change)
2) Your attitude is ridiculous - you are new to the game, yet you think you understand it well enough to completely overhaul it. You act as though you and your 'team' have some sort of legitimate call to reform, when for all we know it's just you (and maybe a few sock puppet accounts you created to confirm your story). You are not, in any way, official, yet you try (deliberately, I assume) to word your posts in such a way that people believe you are doing real development work, and not just making up nonsensical solutions to problems that exist only in your own mind.
You sir just contradicted yourself there. You said i did know what i was talking
about then mentioned another 5 fleets (who have been playing this game since launch)
and did you put 1 and 2 together to come to the conclusion that the bases i formed upon
was not only my opinion as a developer for three title space games, but also the feed back
of the leaders of 5 fleets. Maybe you will consider thinking before you speak.
I Wonder Why the Mods do not do something about you guys. You guys come and troll
treads to death, commenting to the point to where you dont even stop to think about
whats being said, its no wonder i am miles a head of you.
3) Your solutions, right down the line, are worse than the problems they purport to solve, often rising to the level of outright inherent contradictions. As an example: The problem with space combat (in PVP, I assume) you say is that ships can tank forever and tacs can one-shot anyone. Wait. What? So, ships live too long, but also die too fast? Or is it more the case that some players (*cough*you*cough*) are making suggestions based on limited PvP experiences wherein they found that they couldn't beat a tanking cruiser, yet were themselves easy meat for a passing escort? I have news for you - that's not a balance problem, that's a player skill problem.
STOP, READ, THINK <<< the New thread "Safe your life" Technique. (instead of stop drop roll)
Did you stop to think that there is 3 types of ships in the game and that maybe
two can be 1 shot, and 1 cant be killed?
Your solution to this "problem" is to seek to remove buff stacking from the game, and reduce the overall effectiveness of BOFF powers such that combat becomes closer to how the game would play with no powers at all. I'll tell you what that would be like: BORING. Boff powers right now are the primary way players "interact" with combat - removing them would result in less player interaction (boring) and reducing the power and frequency of BOFF abilities would mean fights would tend to be inevitable outcomes that nonetheless grind on for a minute or more (boring AND frustrating).
That is a large assumption. Have you tried to combat vs someone of the same or similar
build with no skills being used? Give it a try, you may be surprised. (well if your two
engineers that may be a bit dull)
Now, I know you are very much in love with your ideas, and I'm sure your cognitive dissonance will allow you to cook up a response that sounds reasonable to you, so I want to be clear here: Do not mistake this scathing rebuke as an attempt to engage you in some form of debate. It is not. I'm sure you think this is proof that people are unwilling to engage with your ideas in a reasonable discussion, and to a point, you are right. No reasonable discussion is possible here, because we can't even agree on what reality is. When it is raining, and I feel the weather is bad, I'm perfectly willing to entertain a debate about why rain might, in fact, be good. I am not, however, willing to debate whether or not rain is actually magical unicorn tears that fall from marshmallow clouds.
All i hear from this was
WAaaaa.... Im right your wrong and im going to pop evassive menuvers and run away
like a cardassian chasing yamak sauce or a klingon after a sea of 2309
Comments
Still looking for reviews on these
Both similar and dissimilar to your concept. I think Cryptic's implementation is on the right track.
I submit that the immediate response to something like that is to report the mission as a Foundry exploit.
Long term, I think the right solution is to cap the number of drops any one player can collect during a mission, by any mechanism you choose to name that's fair to both solo players and teams.
When all of the fleet members have left and the fleet is empty. Period.
If even one guy is left in the fleet, the possibility exists that the fleet and its' holdings can be revived by new members. If that one guy has put hundreds of thousands of Dilithium and other resources into fleet holdings, it's not fair that he should lose that through no fault of his own.
If Cryptic ever implemented anything like that, I'd never put even a single EC into a fleet holding ever again.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I'm curious as to how you know that the game is hurting financially and how many "coders" they do or do not have?
I don't believe I'll argue with you on that point. Quality control on patch revisions does seem to be a weak area.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Bluegeek, do you think that limitation should be applied to *all* content, or just Foundry missions? Because I thought there was a max EC limit to foundry missions.
If the former, though, I don't necessarily agree with it. I like getting loot from a mission and vendoring it afterwards. Call it an RPer stereotype if you will, but if the mission does not award loot, I have trouble caring about it. :X
All in all, I think Cryptic is doing some interesting things to the in-game economy for the super-rare stuff by giving fleet equipment that's as good or better than the super-expensive ultra-rare drops (fleet warp cores and engineering consoles). So I'm not a fan of calls to nerf loot-getting.
Then again, from my POV, Cryptic is on a serious roll since LOR.
function i guess its ok.
Now we should start looking at the other major issue with Fleet bases, and
a counter option to level it faster.
Either we can do this through the suggested Zen button, or through
the officer system That i purposed. that a fleet has an officer in
charge of a specific field (Security , science, engineering etc).
Make it so that officers on the project reduce the game. up
to 5 officers per a project.
Purple Quality 10 % Per officer
Blue Quality 8% Per Officer
Green Quality 6% Per Officer
White Quality 4$ Per Officer
The Mining System needs to be in the fleet sector.
We absolutely need to find a way to encourage visiting and
activity through the fleet star-base.
For the foundry,
Its not just that Mission, its any mission for farming. Its better
for the interest of the economy, and the game to revise it so
that each mission gives up to
150,000 EC per a run
1250 Dilithium
this is much more stable and still encourages repeated
use of the foundry, and prevents economic abuse to the game.
As long as you have drops there, they will always find ways
around the fixes.
As for the Coders
Extremely slow patching is always
the case there is not many coders
or many dedicated coders to a game.
This is why i know there is a low amount "dedicated"
coders for STO. If it had, say even 5 Coders, it would
be patching content much much faster.
As for the financial side, It was stated on forums
that the game is reaching near its budget area,
as well as in interviews. This tells me we need
to address major income problems like
Fleets being used as banks.
Which brings me to my next point.
Who said the people using the fleet as a bank
put hundreds of thousends of dilithium into the fleet?
They just spammed a bunch of EC Slots.
Simple Solution to this problem, Just make
Bank tabs tied into the tier level.
Tier 0 = 1 tab (15 Bank Slots)
Tier 1 = 2 tabs (30 Slots)
Tier 2 = 4 Tabs (75 Slots
Tier 3 = 6 Tabs (150 Slots)
Tier 4 = 8 Tabs (200 Slots)
Tier 5 = 10 Tabs (250 slots)
Whats important is that level 0 and 1
have a very low amount.
There is also a more stable option to code in
the tabs being based on the fleets population
levels, that open projects based on the fleets
level, But would require it to stay above that level
(Other wise they would ninja recruit and still
use the fleet for a bank.
We also have to address the issue that some people
Intentionally use fleets as banks, but invite people
to level them for themselves (possibly to sell
invites later).
In the end a whole mess of problems comes from
not addressing these small issues, Ranging from
people not buying Bank/tab slots with zen (supporting
the game economically) to Economic abuse.
I dont care what you or anyone else thinks, I will
continue to believe that fleets being used as banks
and invites to fleets being sold for 10 millions is
abused and destructive to the game.
Lastly,
Consider this, If the game is indeed reaching its peak
to spending budget, How do you see the progression
of the game going? and its survival? Lets consider
the future, and make the Sto of today last, Who
cares if a few people get upset, its for the betterment
of the game, and its survival.
I can support purples being in there if its at its current rate.
Or a promised blue of XII Quality at the end. But only 1.
I think that higher EC/Dilithium rates are a very good approach.
and are generally much more stable to 200k EC a minute.
IT dont take much to review the games stats to see where
the inflation is coming from, and I am willing to wager
the two places of inflation are
Foundry
Invites to fleets for 10million.
And if the foundry is nerfed, chances
are those 10-12 days of farming will
prevent the 10 million buy-ins to fleet
(as people would gock and walk the
other way at such a ironious offer)
The Foundry awards a max of about 750K EC per day, and I suspect it's lower than that. You make more from Tour the Universe if done twice during the hour, IIRC. I think it's more fun to get loot from pew-pewing the TRIBBLE out of Borg, Elachi, or Tal Shiar battleships, but hey, whatever generates credits the fastest.
Base invites for 10 million/fleet invites for 10 million (to buy a T5 ship) do not actually inflate the EC economy, since they aren't "new" EC being added to the system. Instead, it's reshuffling of the already existing EC in the game.
FWIW, I'm not in favor of additional deflationary pressures on the EC economy by means of EC generation restriction via loot drops (1) or logistically aggravating sinks like the 800 xp reputation projects which steal hypos and shield charges from you. I agree some sinks are needed, but not ones that make the game less fun.
(1) I think that was tried at the beginning of Season 7. The resulting forum rage was not pleasant.
damage.
I Really think this system is underused if at all used.
Imo, The repairs you gain from elites (to person, officer and ship)
should be applied to all levels.
I would Let any death have a repair rate on it, Repaired
at med bay or the ship enigineer in the starbase,
I am a firm believer that the fleet base is just not used
enough, and i strongly support a discout to using fleet
utilities like repairs. I strongly believe that the repairs
out of fleets should be vastly superior to that in a fleet.
Let me throw a few conceptual numbers around
Level 10
Light Cost 500 Credits
Medium Costs 750 Credits
Critical Costs 1500 Credits.
Level 50
Light Cost 5000 Credits
Medium Costs 12500 Credits
Critical Costs 25000 Credits.
Level 50 (Elite)
Light Cost 10000 Credits
Medium Costs 25000 Credits
Critical Costs 50000 Credits.
Now, I am not sure how much this will agitate people, but its a good start in solving
the problems.
In regards to the 10 million, Your right and wrong.
It is this mechanic that allows for stockpiling, which directly effects economic
prices, This in return throws item prices into a state of inflation.
Think about it, people buying Destroyers for 70-90 Million credits, How are they
able to afford this?
If you are looking at foundry farming you are talking 120 days of farming (90mill).
Do you really think they are farming that much?
On top of this we need to address the possibility that the Gold farmer income is
coming from some where, and i hate to break it to you, But people With an
account with full characters all have 1 billion Ec, Are a danger to the game,
and likely the suppliers of these problems.
I Move for a reduction cap, - 2% OF wealth per a day, For any wealth over 25m on an
account to the point of reaching 250m (Account side).
Consider for a moment, there is reasons why things on AH Jump from 500k
to 25million in 1 quality level (and its not market demand when there is 1000 of them
on ah; just to squish that argument before its presented)
No, the starbase sales method is NOT an inflationary system, because the starbase sales does not create EC from the game and give it to players. Instead, it translates from player to player.
Now, the source of the inflation comes because there are an awful lot of players with an awful lot of EC. You appear to be under the impression that the only (fast) way to make money from the game is via foundry loot drops.
But here's the thing: for almost a year, there was no new content in the game. So the people who stayed during the great drought (March 2011 to F2P) generates A LOT of loot drops and a LOT of energy credits. These energy credits remained in circulation. When new stuff such as lockbox ships became available, the market was able to support these prices. The revised loot tables after Season 7 giving more Mk XII ultra rare weapons and vendor trash equipment has also added to EC inflation.
I really do not understand your intense bias against people with large quantities of energy credits. Can you explain why you're demanding they receive some sort of nasty punishment?
Maybe he doesn't have that kind of EC and is jealous and thus wants everyone 'on even footing' (IE in the same state he is)? It's just a guess though, based on past experiences on other gaming forums.
You are just repeating yourself, So ill do the same.
Lots of People with lots of money = High priced items on Ah
If you dident get the point before here it is one more time
>> If people have 90 million credits to buy a destroy, and they want it they will
spend that 90 million, however they will only do this on the condition they
know they can farm it back in X amount of time.
When you destroy this cap, you destroy the high EC Sale, and thus stabilize
the pricing ranges.
There is no need for anyone in this game to have 90 million EC. Its just
not needed. There for, really the Expansion cap on EC should not be up to 1billion
but maybe 50 million per a character.
High Income and specially Stockpiles on EC Cause gold farmers to come out of the
wood works. And i have only ever seen gold farmers defending mechanics that
allow them to horde billions of EC,credits, isk, gold.
Destroy the capability to stockpile, and you destroy them you make the game
unprofitable and you get the scum out of the game that are selling it to them.
Or they see something phenomenally cool that they want to spend their EC on, knowing that they'll be out the 300-500 million EC for the better part of a year...but DARN, having that Bugship is cool.
But this gets into my next point:
Alternatively, you are destroying one of the most fun parts of MMO metagaming: arbitrage.
Have you considered that it is FUN to make a profit buying and selling items? That there is something really, really cool about finding a Temporal Destroyer that may be priced about 10 million too low, buying it, and reselling it? Watching a significant asset appreciate then reselling it is a pretty big accomplishment, in my opinion. Not having the ability in this game would be a gameplay change I STRONGLY oppose. (1) Farming, be it for dilithium, EC, marks will always exist (and is indeed necessary!) in this game.
Bringing up "gold farmers", by which I assume you refer exclusively to black market, TOS-violating, direct cash-for-EC third parties, is not something anyone is defending and I respectfully request that you apologize for comparing me (and others) on this thread to them.
Destroy the ability for gamers to have vast sums of gold/ec/dilithium/whathaveyou, and you destroy about 75% of the fun of gaming.
What's the fun of an RPG where I cannot get massive amounts of loot?
(1) ...Okay, so it's not the most IP-themed fun I can get. But neither is having my stolen Fed Temporal Destroyer massacare Hirogen!
Have you considered work is fun?
Take for example leveling, its work, but often
people enjoy this more then they enjoy the
end game content; none the less its work.
Fun is a very subjective term and we
need to keep that is a realistic scope, but
none the less to much fun is destructive.
Take for example a gamer that only games
does not work etc. He/she can destroy their lives
because of to much fun.
So think about this and learn an important value
that balance is important and vital to a healthy life
or in this case a healthy video game.
You dont need 9 billion credits, its far beyond the point of fun.
Its better for 1 EC to be valued at 10, then 1ec be valued at 00.25
Keep this in mind. if you have hordes of ec and it was easy to get it
it has no real value, and no real sense of accomplishment comes from that.
In fact i'd go as far as to say, this person is corrupted with greed if all they think
about is $$
in short, you can have accomplishment with out 9billion ec.
This is the biggest load of BS i have heard.
a very very small amount of players are focused on economics. realistically 75% of the fun comes from
pve, 20% from pvp, and the rest from other aspects of the game (economics etc).
we are not talking about loot exactly, we are talking about EC.
you want a stabilized solution, buy the look on the ah, go out in the universe and farm it.
you just shouldent be able to get 100 items in 10 minutes. no successful game allows
this, and for good reason.
No one said you or others are gold farmers. It was stated the most of the time the billionares of games
are the ones selling the isk, credits etc to them for RL money.
So if you are jumping on that bit, you are playing defensive for no reason, and that is suspicious behavior, imo.
uhmari ..thats probably the biggest load of TRIBBLE i ever heard.
if u want everyone to be poor..go to north korea ...
this is a game ..and some people actually enjoy the loot part..infact..psychologically speaking ...its a well proven area of enjoyment ...the part where people like to get new shiny stuff and get the best deal and get more money .
u dont have to be lifeless .u dont have to be buying it from anyone ..u just have to take the time to enjoy the game and bit by bit learn how to make EC fast and easy ..same as me ..im just an FTP which came here soon after FTP came online..yet even though i spent a buk load of EC ..billions by now..i still have well over 1bil ..a bug and all the stuff i wanted and still have fun and a life .
oh ..and i work also in the meantime..day trader ..btw..so game economics came easy for me .
people wanting 50mil cap are poor people who are lazy and instead of learning how to make EC want everyone to come down to their lvl ..
well if u dont have time to learn the ropes u have no business playing this game or any descent MMO with a learning curve, cause making funds in this game is so so so much easier then lets say EVE online ..or guild wars ..
no im not gonna share my ways for it..i will just say its possible and im not even working hard on it being a lazy doffer that i am .
oh ..and if people are so pressed for money ..go flip a burger for 1 week ..and then ull have all the zen u want in this game :P...its either that or keep crying here for something u know fully well will never come to pass.
I do have a question. I remember last year when i began playing, free accounts were capped by how much money they could earn.
I never looked into it - but were Lifetime accounts also capped at some level? if so what was it.
As i was reading ull whatever's post it reminded me of something.
It was when the President remarked rather famously, "I think at a certain point, you've made enough money."
I suppose this debate boils down with whether you agree with that sentiment or not.
at the end of the day though, cryptic isn't going to take anyone's money away (money that was gained fairly)
So asking for them to be unfair to all those people just to increase the 'fairness' as one person sees it.. is honestly the height of selfishness.
forgive me if i mischaracterized your post as i am relaxing a bit and i may not have read it thoroughly.
The balance in a MMO (especially a f2p one) is between how much incentive to give the player to pay money for the game while still providing enough fun to have them stick around in order for those incentives to become noticable.
STO has a fairly good balance there.
Money cap is at 1 billion. There will never be an item worth more than 1 billion because you cannot carry enough to purchase it.
Free money cap is at 10 million (with a Zen option to up the cap to the max) so the majority of items will not be worth more than 10 million because that's limiting the market of the seller and in many cases other people will make more sales cutting under that mark than those who don't.
Again, EC is the cheapest currency in the game by design.
The majority of those items will be vendored (or recycled if you don't have the inventory space) and only the choice few will actually sell for more than their EC value.
Plus those 100 items in 10 minutes is only valid for that time period, as by then you've probably hit the foundry loot drop cap and thus you'll be looking at 100 items every 45 minutes or so.
That's insinuating something, which is part of Ad Hominem tactics, which makes your reasoning fallacious.
Or in laymen terms, you're suggesting it, which provides reason, which makes your overall reasoning weak. Don't do it.
TOS violating currency-for-cash services get most of their in-game capital from compromised accounts. This is fact. Don't use them.
1 Billion cap for everyone, 10 million for free accounts (with 500 zen upgrade to the 1 billion mark.)
This game has little to no incentive to stay around after hitting level 50.
I dont know what your playing, But it seems to be an entirely different game.
I admire what the devs have done here, But the truth must be spoken.
End game content is near non-existant, and if is existent is repetitive.
Linear progression (Doing the same thing over and over) Gets old after about a month.
That's my exact point. And it needs to stop because its leaking very large amounts
of Income into the game.
Repeating game mechanics does not validate your position.
Yes the majority are free to play, but the current Sto system is designed
almost to the point where zen is so easy to get you never need to pay.
This needs to be fixed in my opinion, I would like to see the following changes
This will resolve the games low income problems. and allow it to be free to play
so the game is still enjoyable.
EC needs to be the backbone of trade in the game, the life force if you will.
And dilithium needs to become more accessable (about another 10-15%).
So i would allow Dilithium to be bought up to 8000 cap on the exchange
with EC, and ec to sell for Dilithium.
These changes would vastly balance the mechanics, Provided that Foundry
recieve my purposed change of
Missions now grant up to 150,000 Credits, and 1000 dilithium ore. 8% Change to recieve
a mark XII Item on completion of mission.
Just as you stated i said something i did not. Lesson learnt here, don't assume.
Again repeating mechanics. And again i say, Buy (zen) cap should be 50 or 100 million a character, not 1 billion.
I hope the devs are aware enough to realize this man just suffers from delusions of grandeur, and really just speaks for himself.
I hope not because most of those ideas will just kill the game and turn it into a chore.
If I want 350mil EC sat in my account, Ill grind for it and have it, then probably blow it on all sorts of stuff for my multiple toons.
Like many, I have dropped millions of hard ground Dilithium, so dont tell me we are all freeloaders in fleets.
You say you spoke to 50 people in fleets? My fleet has 497 people in it, thats a much larger cross section, plenty of other fleets out there with that number, there are many thousands of players on the game. So you spoke to 50 and think thats the concensus across the board of what needs to be done?
Your combat ideas are frankly speaking, stupid. You would actually remove most of the sci and engineer abilities that make them effective.
Im sorry but Id suggest you go home and uninstall STO, you seem to have zero concept of it and seem to want to tear all the fun away (Strangely thats the reason why we play games. FUN).
Is not Valid against the Argument for the purposed changes.
Lets look at the problems in depth.
3-4 People Perma tanked by 1 Cruiser
Permanant Crowd control By 1 science vessel
1 Shot Vollies From Tactical ships
Tell me, Why do you feel this are an ok thing in the game?
Please Address the question, Not if there is or is not counters to them.
On that note,Lets address the next issue.
Limited Ship Builds (Problem #2)
limited countering forces people to have a specific build there by making
all pvp builds Predictable and non-unique.
For example, there is only 1 ubar build for any of the three builds, though granted
it may have an optional 1-2 mods that can be customized, in general it uses the same
concepts, builds and skills.
What we learn from this is that either
1) Some items,skills combinations need a nerf
2) Others need to be brought up to par with them
If things are as stated in problem 1, Generally speaking your looking at a nerf,
however if these items are never generally used, you are looking at a upgrade to them
and a nerf to the ones that are breaking game content.
Tell me Where there is a problem in that logic, Since you are an "experienced designer and know what you are talking about"
Skill Problems
The game is all about mushing buttons to the point that its just pure button spam, and gear is playing a much lower level in it then it should. On top of this, The Button spam of skills are the focal point of the game breaking builds (IE instant kills, perma cc, unkillable Tanks).
So the solution is to resolve the Combination use of the skills.
So argue against those logics if you are capable, But i think it will go to
"I want to 1 shot everything and be ZOMG and no one should compete because
i have a ubar awesome epeen". <-- because this is 99% of this forum.
Nope, nothing at all.
uhmari :rolleyes:. Please, please stop drinking the Kool-Aid.
Anyhoo, have you even noticed the engi and sic captains here? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure they make up more than 1% of forum posters. Despite evidence to the contrary, this isn't ETO. It's STO. Carriers, for example, can't OHKO, no matter how well they're built. About half of the sci ships in STO can't insta-kill either - they just don't have the tac slots - and those that can have to lay a ****load of debuffs on the target to do so. As for cruisers, well, just consider an engi in a cruiser.
Now, a somewhat strange request. Could someone please start a "How to fix Engineers in Space" thread? I have a few ideas, but, being a silver, I can't start a thread.
That's why teamwork is needed.
Oneshot kills also happened in the TV program's and films.
Each and every person that plays this game, plays it because deepdown they are the 'hero ship' or hero away party'.
You take the possibility away to survive, no ones interested.
With your idea of how combat should be, people will either pop near instantly or never pop.
To be honest, it sounds like you use a cruiser and this is one of those 'nerf cruisers so it turns like an escort and is more powerful' just in a mega convoluted way.
Some points I do agree with, the star bases aren't used enough.
You even seem to fail to see that anti proton weapons are no different from all the others of the same level, they just crit more, which is their extra power.
If anything, elite disruptors are the odd ones out.
Lies, Iv seen it, Ill go pvp later and fraps, then post it on youtube for all to watch.
That is a tv show, w here combat lasts 30 seconds and is repeated once a week (if your lucky).
This is a video game that needs balances. Lets be realistic in the approach on the two.
Unless its Counter strike based games, 1 shotting should not exist. Imo, No space mmo
should have controlled repeatable 1 shots, Ever. This is a utter show of lack of development capability, Intelligence on design, and implementation of a combat system.
Ramble ramble, "I want to live forever" = Not balanced
With a statement like the above, you only confirm that 99% of the game wants to be
UberUltrazomg powerful running around 1 shooting noobs, and claiming your "all that and a box of kanar"
Incorrect, Wrong, Not accurate. Im going to start laying it on thick to you guys who are advocating pro-ubermode on everyone.
Again i explain by the following >
Imagine all skills are taken out of the game > This is how combat should look at feel.
Skills should only be there to help. In short, SKills are
1. Way to strong
2. Way to spammable
3. To many combinations at once break the games combat system
I want cruisers to tank, and i want them to do some more damage to. I just dont want
perma tanks, just like i dont support perma cc or instant kills.
Mmmhmm.. Why you went to weapons then this then back to weapons... /shrug
Its not the weapons thats breaking the system, Its the skills.
I would like to get on the dev server and test out a battle of just weapons vs weapons.
The simple solution
after reviewing more, I have come to the conclusion the following
changes will balance the combat system
Balance to Proc rates (Still seeking a good option that does not require coding).
Officer Skills now have 3 types of classifications, Tactical, Science, Engineering. You can only use one of the three types at a time. it will put officers on their own CD timer 1 skill per CD.
This means that you cannot pop two tactical officer abilities at once, but can pop
a tactical and engineering.
Allow all officers to reach captain and to have access to 4 skills in space at any time.
Turn Formations into permanant on "aura's" that tactical ships can swap between (No GCD).
Buff all Regeneration of time effects (Science) Remove instant repairs and grant them to Engineer only (So engie = large instant repairs, Sci = Over time).
code a new mechanic that no heal can exceed 35% of health.
No ship can permatank against a good group of ships. Its called teamwork, scrubs, debuffs, holds, placates then the killing blow.
You spoke to 50 people, I'd hazard a guess those 50 people have had butthurt in PvP so cry nerf to everything.
You say cannons need less damage, beams need more!
Beams carry more damage at long range, cannons are all but useless above 5km anyway.
I've seen out of the many hundreds of PvPs I've done plenty of beam cruisers that have been a real PITA when it comes to keeping shields up against them.
I really highly suggest you go back and do some research into the game mechanics.
What you are suggesting is a complete game breaker, end of.
I'd also suggest going into the queues and see how long you last against a team that works together as one, it won't be very long.
You also seem to mistake what cruisers are really for. Cruisers are an anvil, escorts are a hammer, the enemy is the metal between. Without the anvil, the hammer only dents and makes noise against the metal, without the hammer, the metal sits on the anvil and does nothing. Combined together though, the hammer with the support of the anvil can bend, shape and destroy the metal.
that i suck at pvp. You need to check your logic, because the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
I have talked to well over 50 people, We have 5 fleets in our group that
feedback on these issues. we have forums dedicated to this very specific
task to feed back about the parts of the games that are broken, or
need improvement.
I cant give you all of my knowledge instantly, because you cant teach someone
a university level degree in 5 minutes. But Let me explain a few things, because
you are making general mistakes in your statements that shows a lack of understanding
and even knowing of the full way i purposed for game changes. (Likely you got lazy and did not read through all of it.)
Why Cannons need a nerf
Note: Stability is defined as a constant rate; Please take note of this for the below information.
When it comes to Dps Rates, General Cannon dps in PvE is around 2.8k to 3.4k.
Further In pvp, You do not encounter 1 Shot vollies from Beams. This means
That they are more "stable" as a weapon. On top of this even in pve we
experience extremely fast kill rates. This tells us cannons are just out of their
zone for balance. The problem is, everyone running around with ubar builds
hate this from being changed because they want to "epeen" how pro they are
Conclusion: Cannons need a balance, Possibly increasing their effective range, but decreasing their over all Dps. On top of this skills that coordinate with them need a
nerf bat, Likely the best solution to this is a prevention of combinations.
Beam Changes
Beams are fairly stable, however in a battle 1v1 Escort vs Cruiser, The cruiser usually wins
This is due to the fact that the cruiser just absorbs a great amount of damage (to much).
On top of this, Cruisers (and science vessels) in general suffer from a major problems
leveling in PvE. We need to look at a way to diversify the classes, So they feel different.
This is where beams come in Beams Dps output is generally around 1400-1600 Dps.
This means that the dps on a cannon is near double of that on a beam. This is what
is killing the pvp mechanics for Cruisers and Science vessels. Now, I don't Agree
that they should pwn everything but i think the danger factor on the two need to come
up, and since beams are the weak link, its a logical conclusion.
Skills
When it comes to skills, the game depends on them far to greatly.
and because of this you get the broken concepts. It may be a better
idea out right for the game to investigate a massive dynamic change
to the skill system. This is because its the skill system that is primarily
contributing to the above problems (Perma cc, 1 v-kills etc)
This is Why i was left to the conclusion of control mechanics on the skills.
Think about it a little. many skills are useless, and many more are over powered
and even larger problems are that most skills depend on 1-2 specific skills to counter
These Contributing factors are leading to forcing players on specific Builds. Which
is exactly what we see now. 2-3 Good builds for escorts. However, Do you see
1 shot, Ubar beam builds? No. The funny thing about this is that beam has all
the utility cannons are all the damage and yet that damage is so high, it makes
the utility useless. This is what many weapons (like plasma) are experiencing
and even shielding has this fundamental problem which leads to the next point
Shielding
What i am advocating here is that all items are viable on all ships.
For example, Normal or regenerative shielding should be good on
an escort, or cruiser. However there should be a specific set of
circumstances where this specific type is superior. For example
Regenerative shielding on a Science vessel. (Please pay attention
to the idea of the example, not the exact mechanics because i am going
to continue to purpose an alternate change to make pvp better)
I think there is a simple solution to this, and that we got it all wrong.
I want to change the bonus's on ships to give a bonus different to shields
then current.
In your mind for a moment to set all ships to 1.0 Bonus.
Now i ask a question, Does any type of shielding appeal more then another?
If so What type?
Most people will answer Resilient. This is my exact point when it comes to weapons
and shielding.
You should want to take a type of shielding, or weapon because of its benefits
and weaknesses, not because its so much better that the others are useless.
so I want to see the following stats
Regenerative shielding
10,500 Hp
Regenerates 350 Shields Per 3 Seconds
10% Bleeding
Resilient Shielding
11,500 Hp
Regenerates 180 Shielding per 6 seconds
15% absorb
Normal shielding
13,500 Hp
Regenerates 230 Shield per 6 seconds
10% Absorb, 5% Bleed
Covariant Shielding
15,500 Hp
Regenerates 200 Shields per 4 seconds
Reduces cannon damage by 10%
Reduces beam damage by 5%
Paratronic Shielding
22,500 Hp
Regenerates 90 shields per 6
15% Bleeding
On top of this i would reduce all hull rates by 25%.
Lastly, I would give each type of ship a special effect when modulating shielding
(Like For, aft, All etc).
Tactical : + 10% Movement speed, + 9 Agility
Engineer: Removes CC.
Science: -2 seconds on Timer to remodulate
Couple of reasons why your suggestions are getting no traction:
1) They are utterly unworkable given the current state of the game. The suggestions you are making range from a total overhaul of the way the game is monetized to a complete working of combat mechanics, class balance, and ship design. In other words, you want to make a completely new game (I guess keeping maybe the engine and art assets?). That you find this even plausible demonstrates how out of touch with the realities of game development you really are.
2) Your attitude is ridiculous - you are new to the game, yet you think you understand it well enough to completely overhaul it. You act as though you and your 'team' have some sort of legitimate call to reform, when for all we know it's just you (and maybe a few sock puppet accounts you created to confirm your story). You are not, in any way, official, yet you try (deliberately, I assume) to word your posts in such a way that people believe you are doing real development work, and not just making up nonsensical solutions to problems that exist only in your own mind.
3) Your solutions, right down the line, are worse than the problems they purport to solve, often rising to the level of outright inherent contradictions. As an example: The problem with space combat (in PVP, I assume) you say is that ships can tank forever and tacs can one-shot anyone. Wait. What? So, ships live too long, but also die too fast? Or is it more the case that some players (*cough*you*cough*) are making suggestions based on limited PvP experiences wherein they found that they couldn't beat a tanking cruiser, yet were themselves easy meat for a passing escort? I have news for you - that's not a balance problem, that's a player skill problem.
Your solution to this "problem" is to seek to remove buff stacking from the game, and reduce the overall effectiveness of BOFF powers such that combat becomes closer to how the game would play with no powers at all. I'll tell you what that would be like: BORING. Boff powers right now are the primary way players "interact" with combat - removing them would result in less player interaction (boring) and reducing the power and frequency of BOFF abilities would mean fights would tend to be inevitable outcomes that nonetheless grind on for a minute or more (boring AND frustrating).
Now, I know you are very much in love with your ideas, and I'm sure your cognitive dissonance will allow you to cook up a response that sounds reasonable to you, so I want to be clear here: Do not mistake this scathing rebuke as an attempt to engage you in some form of debate. It is not. I'm sure you think this is proof that people are unwilling to engage with your ideas in a reasonable discussion, and to a point, you are right. No reasonable discussion is possible here, because we can't even agree on what reality is. When it is raining, and I feel the weather is bad, I'm perfectly willing to entertain a debate about why rain might, in fact, be good. I am not, however, willing to debate whether or not rain is actually magical unicorn tears that fall from marshmallow clouds.
Big wow, I have more people on my friends list.
You talk about balance, yet essentially you are throwing further out by decreasing the one thing that does do as described.
You are talking a complete rebuild of the mechanics to make you and 50 people happy.
Even 200 people in this game isn't a reasonable cross section.
You obviously don't understand the mechanics, no speculation needed. This thread is proof.
In any game that has a 'skill structure' requires uber builds to be competitive with high level stuff.
What you want to instigate is a complete rebuild of a system to fix minor issues that DO need to be addressed.
For the love of god, learn to play the game or go play minecraft.
You also said you wanted feedback to adjust stuff, nearly everyone who has posted so far has said you are wrong, yet you arrogantly continue and call everyone else wrong.
I am a Huge Troll on forums, If you want to troll-off, Let
me get under a bridge and then we can start..I need about 15 minutes
to change costume first...
What grounds do you speak from? Did i ever mention an entire overhaul to the pvp system?
OR did i not mention simple changes like
Limiting the amount of skills used at a time (Minor coding fixes)
Reducing Dps rates on weapons (Stat change)
You sir just contradicted yourself there. You said i did know what i was talking
about then mentioned another 5 fleets (who have been playing this game since launch)
and did you put 1 and 2 together to come to the conclusion that the bases i formed upon
was not only my opinion as a developer for three title space games, but also the feed back
of the leaders of 5 fleets. Maybe you will consider thinking before you speak.
I Wonder Why the Mods do not do something about you guys. You guys come and troll
treads to death, commenting to the point to where you dont even stop to think about
whats being said, its no wonder i am miles a head of you.
STOP, READ, THINK <<< the New thread "Safe your life" Technique. (instead of stop drop roll)
Did you stop to think that there is 3 types of ships in the game and that maybe
two can be 1 shot, and 1 cant be killed?
That is a large assumption. Have you tried to combat vs someone of the same or similar
build with no skills being used? Give it a try, you may be surprised. (well if your two
engineers that may be a bit dull)
All i hear from this was
WAaaaa.... Im right your wrong and im going to pop evassive menuvers and run away
like a cardassian chasing yamak sauce or a klingon after a sea of 2309