New players do (and you should, too). We only have one chance at a first impression, and if someone can't get through the tutorial because they are confused or do not enjoy their experience during it, the chances of them continuing to play is quite low.
New players who complete the tutorial and continue to play from there equates to growth for the game -- growth leads to new content, systems, ships, costumes, etc.; more expansions; more seasons; and a long, healthy life for the game.
A strong tutorial, like the new Romulan and Klingon tutorial, for the Federation will only lead to what I mentioned above, and I think we can all agree we would love for much more of it.
So, who cares about the tutorial? We all should
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
it's not as bad as you guys are painting the picture of it. perhaps they never made it passed the fed tutorial because they wanted to play from the start kdf, romulan or even cardassian. lack of them options is enough to make any one turn away. i'm not surprised people would stop playing if they was forced to play fed. especially if that was never their flavour. since beta I wish I had a pound(or even a dollar) for each time people used to ask how they could make a kdf character. the answers was always met with a huge amount of disappointment. thankfully that's fixed now. personally I think you should do hardly anything fed side and watch the other 1.5 factions grow. there is reasons why most players are fed in this game and it's not because they have a massively failing tutorial.... see what i'm saying :P
New players do (and you should, too). We only have one chance at a first impression, and if someone can't get through the tutorial because they are confused or do not enjoy their experience during it, the chances of them continuing to play is quite low.
New players who complete the tutorial and continue to play from there equates to growth for the game -- growth leads to new content, systems, ships, costumes, etc.; more expansions; more seasons; and a long, healthy life for the game.
A strong tutorial, like the new Romulan and Klingon tutorial, for the Federation will only lead to what I mentioned above, and I think we can all agree we would love for much more of it.
So, who cares about the tutorial? We all should
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
This is absolutely spot on. A strong tutorial, and opening to the game in general, is the best way to grab players who are giving the game a shot. Encouraging these players to keep going is the best way to grow and sustain the game.
it's not as bad as you guys are painting the picture of it. perhaps they never made it passed the fed tutorial because they wanted to play from the start kdf, romulan or even cardassian. lack of them options is enough to make any one turn away. i'm not surprised people would stop playing if they was forced to play fed. especially if that was never their flavour. since beta I wish I had a pound(or even a dollar) for each time people used to ask how they could make a kdf character. the answers was always met with a huge amount of disappointment. thankfully that's fixed now. personally I think you should do hardly anything fed side and watch the other 1.5 factions grow. there is reasons why most players are fed in this game and it's not because they have a massively failing tutorial.... see what i'm saying :P
I agree with Branflakes on this a new fed tutorial would bring new players in but with the new KDF and romulan tutorial they have done the same. So I can see both sides of the argument here but to stop making fed side content will only hurt the game more as being a member of the KDF and being overlooked time and time again for there own standalone content I wouldn't wish that on the KDF worst enemy.
Most people want to have one character in each faction so they can play multiple styles of play and although I prefer my KDF character I still play my Fed and my Fed has a lot invested. However I would like to go back in the journal and revisit the tutorials so I can play the new KDF tutorial with my existing KDF character. So this could be something that could be organised on all factions
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I also agree with that statement. A brand new player who just installed the game and created their character will necessarily play the tutorial... These are the first few minutes someone can stay and play or leave and uninstall the game... More players, more stuff for you and that new person. End game can only happen with people are kept on board.
New players do (and you should, too). We only have one chance at a first impression, and if someone can't get through the tutorial because they are confused or do not enjoy their experience during it, the chances of them continuing to play is quite low.
New players who complete the tutorial and continue to play from there equates to growth for the game -- growth leads to new content, systems, ships, costumes, etc.; more expansions; more seasons; and a long, healthy life for the game.
A strong tutorial, like the new Romulan and Klingon tutorial, for the Federation will only lead to what I mentioned above, and I think we can all agree we would love for much more of it.
So, who cares about the tutorial? We all should
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
agreed, infact I tried and uninstall DCU solo on tutorial. That said there something as important that needs lots of work at cryptic.
Quality control and bug fixing. I hope that the next big thing look at.
New players do (and you should, too). We only have one chance at a first impression, and if someone can't get through the tutorial because they are confused or do not enjoy their experience during it, the chances of them continuing to play is quite low.
New players who complete the tutorial and continue to play from there equates to growth for the game -- growth leads to new content, systems, ships, costumes, etc.; more expansions; more seasons; and a long, healthy life for the game.
A strong tutorial, like the new Romulan and Klingon tutorial, for the Federation will only lead to what I mentioned above, and I think we can all agree we would love for much more of it.
So, who cares about the tutorial? We all should
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
You, sir, are completely right. the tutorital sets the mood for the levelling, it is a part of the levelling and story arc and a good tutorial is awesome and will definately be much appreciated.
New players do (and you should, too). We only have one chance at a first impression, and if someone can't get through the tutorial because they are confused or do not enjoy their experience during it, the chances of them continuing to play is quite low.
All MMO's are overwhelming at first, whether it be EVE Online or Star Trek Online. No amount of tutorials is going to overcome that. Which is why EVE Online doesn't even have a tutorial any more (or something so rudimentary, it isn't worth the name). People playing MMO's know this. They don't just walk away because it's difficult the first few days. The usual way to overcome is to find the nearest help channel -- or figure out the de facto help channels, like ESD zone (or DS9, if they can tear themselves away from Gorn jokes long enough), and try and make your way thru the forest.
New players who complete the tutorial and continue to play from there equates to growth for the game -- growth leads to new content, systems, ships, costumes, etc.; more expansions; more seasons; and a long, healthy life for the game.
You're (understandably) taking the typical management perspective. Whereas I would say "Growth leads to bugs, broken costumes, ship skins that 'accidentally' cost 750 Zen to change, to respec being broken, to boffs no longer showing up correctly on your bridge. And even more growth leads to even lesser chance of PWE ever willing to fix the older bugs."
See? You're thinking about the new customers; I'm thinking about the existing ones. Yes, I know you think game growth will be good for the old customers too. But Dstahl has already admitted you guys really don't have enough staff to do proper QA on your expansions. Hence, your 'growth' just leads to more breakage. Instead, all y'all should be treating STO as if you were a medical doctor, and the game your patient: "Above All, Do No Harm!"
You're (understandably) taking the typical management perspective. Whereas I would say "Growth leads to bugs, broken costumes, ship skins that 'accidentally' cost 750 Zen to change, to respec being broken, to boffs no longer showing up correctly on your bridge. And even more growth leads to even lesser chance of PWE ever willing to fix the older bugs."
See? You're thinking about the new customers; I'm thinking about the existing ones. Yes, I know you think game growth will be good for the old customers too. But Dstahl has already admitted you guys really don't have enough staff to do proper QA on your expansions. Hence, your 'growth' just leads to more breakage. Instead, all y'all should be treating STO as if you were a medical doctor, and the game your patient: "Above All, Do No Harm!"
Exactly!
I am so sick of all this "new expansion was great success!" BS being spewed by Dstahl when it clearly broke the game beyond reason. OF COURSE players old and new are going to log in like there's no tomorrow when a new expansion for the game is being released, this is pure cause and effect, but does that make it a success? Perhaps to someone with the mindset of a child!
There is another organism that considers growth a success purely on the sake of "growth = success", can you guess what that is? A virus!
Seems a paradigm shift is needed when it comes to the mindset of Cryptic.
Growth should never be put in front of functionality, if there is opportunity there to grow at the expense of breaking what you already have, then you are indeed no better than a parasite that is in desperate need of a cure!
New players do (and you should, too). We only have one chance at a first impression, and if someone can't get through the tutorial because they are confused or do not enjoy their experience during it, the chances of them continuing to play is quite low.
New players who complete the tutorial and continue to play from there equates to growth for the game -- growth leads to new content, systems, ships, costumes, etc.; more expansions; more seasons; and a long, healthy life for the game.
A strong tutorial, like the new Romulan and Klingon tutorial, for the Federation will only lead to what I mentioned above, and I think we can all agree we would love for much more of it.
So, who cares about the tutorial? We all should
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Well said Brandon. Regardless of what anyone does however there will always be the group that is unhappy with whatever is going on. And thats ok. If the overall view of what has taken place is positive than the group that is unhappy is inconsequential. Don't mistake what I am saying as "they dont matter", they very much do matter, they are customers just like everyone else. But to expect everything perfect on the first try is stupidity at its finest.
There will ALWAYS be bugs. Some bigger than others. And yes, they will be frustrating at times. But if you dont over react and just let things flow, then things will get fixed. Maybe not as fast as YOU want, but they will be fixed.
One last thing...
Terms or phrases that are overused by online playerbases:
All MMO's are overwhelming at first, whether it be EVE Online or Star Trek Online. No amount of tutorials is going to overcome that. Which is why EVE Online doesn't even have a tutorial any more (or something so rudimentary, it isn't worth the name). People playing MMO's know this. They don't just walk away because it's difficult the first few days. The usual way to overcome is to find the nearest help channel -- or figure out the de facto help channels, like ESD zone (or DS9, if they can tear themselves away from Gorn jokes long enough), and try and make your way thru the forest.
The point you're entirely missing is that a tutorial is more than a giant scrolling list of "this button does this", before throwing the player headfirst into a game. It's an opportunity to set the atmosphere, lay the groundwork for story elements, and generally introduce the player to the game.
Currently the KDF, and to a lesser degree the Romulan, tutorials do an excellent job of setting the scenes and making a player feel as though they're a part of the respective faction. The Fed tutorial...not so much.
Well said Brandon. Regardless of what anyone does however there will always be the group that is unhappy with whatever is going on. And thats ok. If the overall view of what has taken place is positive than the group that is unhappy is inconsequential. Don't mistake what I am saying as "they dont matter", they very much do matter, they are customers just like everyone else. But to expect everything perfect on the first try is stupidity at its finest.
There will ALWAYS be bugs. Some bigger than others. And yes, they will be frustrating at times. But if you dont over react and just let things flow, then things will get fixed. Maybe not as fast as YOU want, but they will be fixed.
One last thing...
Terms or phrases that are overused by online playerbases:
1. I am gonna quit if you dont fix X.
2. There are so many people who are upset with X.
And thats all I have to say for today.
And there is always going to be "the group" that is happy to defend Cryptic no matter what they do.
Perhaps they are "overused" for a reason!
How can you ever hope to fix something if you never acknowledge that said something is indeed broken!
And there is always going to be "the group" that is happy to defend Cryptic no matter what they do.
Perhaps they are "overused" for a reason!
How can you ever hope to fix something if you never acknowledge that said something is indeed broken!
Denial is truly ugly.
Not at all. I have just learned to accept that there will be bugs, no matter what game I am playing. If to you that means I am in denial then so be it. But threatening them that you are going to leave, or speaking for everyone when you do not have that privilege just isnt cool. I dont know where most of yall have grown up, and quite frankly I dont care, but I was raised on the principals of respect and dignity. Given they dont have a whole lot to do with this particular conversation, but I am not gonna blow my top when something gets broke, because lets be frank, **** happens.
As for acknowledging things, believe me I acknowledge alot, but like I said, I dont blow my stack every time something breaks.
Most people want to have one character in each faction so they can play multiple styles of play
[citation needed]
Most people in any MMO play one faction nearly exclusively. Most people in any MMO play one character far in excess of any other.
And finally, most Star Trek fans identify with the Federation more than any other faction. This is because for 28 seasons (29 if you count the Animated Series) and 12 movies, the Federation have been the protagonists.
I don't doubt many players want to have characters in every faction, and I'm definitely one of them, but "most people" really don't. This would not change if the other factions had identical amounts of content. It wouldn't even change if the Klingons and Romulans had more and better content than the Federation.
Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, the fact is that this is a game based on a bunch of TV shows about the Federation. It is therefore of necessity a game about the Federation. If they can also give a good experience for fans of the Klingons and Romulans, and for the inevitable subset of people who instinctively choose the bad guys in any game, super; but if they don't focus the majority of the development on the majority of the customers, they will fail. If they fail, the game goes away, or development of it goes away.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
The point you're entirely missing is that a tutorial is more than a giant scrolling list of "this button does this", before throwing the player headfirst into a game. It's an opportunity to set the atmosphere, lay the groundwork for story elements, and generally introduce the player to the game.
You seem to grasp the concept of opportunity, but not that opportunity cost. Which is to say, working on fancy tutorials goes, inevitably, at the expense of time and resourses best spent elsewhere. In that vein, it's all a matter of priority. It's like making a crappy coffee machine, and then spend countless hours not of fixing your product, but on... writing the manual! See, to any sane person it would appear obvious that a decent manual, whilst cute, is secondary to bringing out a decent product. Not in the minds of Cryptic, though, apparently.
P.S. You guys in this thread are hilarious. Eagerly awaiting your next "Well said, Boss!" posts!
P.P.S. It just occured to me, that, in the minds of marketing folks, presenting a fancy 'front page' actually *is* more important than a good product. But let's not go there, as the universe would probably collapse under so much cynisism.
You seem to grasp the concept of opportunity, but not that opportunity cost. Which is to say, working on fancy tutorials goes, inevitably, at the expense of time and resourses best spent elsewhere. In that vein, it's all a matter of priority. It's like making a crappy coffee machine, and then spend countless hours not of fixing your product, but on... writing the manual! See, to any sane person it would appear obvious that a decent manual, whilst cute, is secondary to bringing out a decent product. Not in the minds of Cryptic, though, apparently.
Flawed analogy is flawed. Game tutorials exist within the game, not outside it. And you know damn well a tutorial mission is something entirely different than a reference manual.
Secondly, the argument that somehow taking the time to make a solid tutorial is going to starve out content development...that's just hilarious. A tutorial mission, especially if well done, *is* content. The very best tutorial missions are those that pair guidance with storytelling and gameplay. Both the Romulan and KDF tutorials do this (introducing game concepts while providing a grounding in the storyline and setting the player is stepping into) exceedingly well.
The Fed intro by comparison is noticeably bland and boring, and entirely disconnected with the entire Fed storyline.
But hey, why bother advocating for improving something when you can just bash bash bash, or insult those willing to actually give credit when an organization actually gets something right?
the fact is the fed tutorial isn't awful. while a new 1 maybe be nice, it's certainly not needed or worthy of a massive time consuming overhaul. the kdf and romulans needed them to be made. that's a major difference.
Flawed analogy is flawed. Game tutorials exist within the game, not outside it. And you know damn well a tutorial mission is something entirely different than a reference manual.
Irrelevant. Time spent on making tutorials is simply not time spent elsewhere, is the point you're missing.
Secondly, the argument that somehow taking the time to make a solid tutorial is going to starve out content development...that's just hilarious. A tutorial mission, especially if well done, *is* content.
Nice strawman. Except I wasn't talking about tutorials not being content, but about creating tutorials taking away time from *fixing* the now horrendeously broken product first.
But hey, why bother advocating for improving something when you can just bash bash bash, or insult those willing to actually give credit when an organization actually gets something right?
Funny, I was just thinking along similar lines: why advocate real improvement when you can just take the opportunity to suck up to the boss? Which is why I usually ignore threads like this, as the responses invariably always consist of the same, trite one-liners (or variations thereto); like:
"You can't please em all!"
"There's always a few!"
"Haters will hate!"
"Blah!"
Or, i.c., "Well said, Boss!" (aka "Look at me being one of the good guys, boss! Aren't you proud of me?!")
And yes, it does annoy me somewhat, as, instead of prioritizing what needs to be fixed first (which, if they had the cojones to put up a poll about would overwhelmingly be 'getting rid of all nasty regression bugs first'), all these discussions end the same: with people who love grandstanding more than just looking at things rationally.
So, on that note, have fun with your tutorial; and, meanwhile, I hope to have imparted some sense of urgency on the devs to straighten out their product first.
The Federation Tutorial is better than most MMOs tutorials. Sure, a little overhaul romulan style would be nice to see but I very much agree to the "fix bugs only with the full team and nothing else atm" crowd. Right now for every "woah, awesome" I see two "ewwww, cheap oversight" now. Yeah, its not gamebreaking but fun suffers more and more. Death from a thousand papercuts is not where I want to see this otherwise wonderful game end up.
I for one am very happy with both the long needed KDF low level content and tutorial and the excellent Romie storylines.
Both where well written and exciting to play through
Thanks for the revamp that gives life and meaning to the KDF at the lowest level of the game by taking the time to fix that aspect of the broken faction.
I greatly appreciate it as a fan of the IP and the Empire.
New players do (and you should, too). We only have one chance at a first impression, and if someone can't get through the tutorial because they are confused or do not enjoy their experience during it, the chances of them continuing to play is quite low.
New players who complete the tutorial and continue to play from there equates to growth for the game -- growth leads to new content, systems, ships, costumes, etc.; more expansions; more seasons; and a long, healthy life for the game.
A strong tutorial, like the new Romulan and Klingon tutorial, for the Federation will only lead to what I mentioned above, and I think we can all agree we would love for much more of it.
So, who cares about the tutorial? We all should
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
I've played the federation tutorial a dozen times. Each time I would see about half the players quit at various stages during the tutorial.
Given the high turnover rate of STO (and probably most other MMOs) new players are always needed and it is best not to have them leave the game before they start
All MMO's are overwhelming at first, whether it be EVE Online or Star Trek Online. No amount of tutorials is going to overcome that. Which is why EVE Online doesn't even have a tutorial any more (or something so rudimentary, it isn't worth the name). People playing MMO's know this. They don't just walk away because it's difficult the first few days. The usual way to overcome is to find the nearest help channel -- or figure out the de facto help channels, like ESD zone (or DS9, if they can tear themselves away from Gorn jokes long enough), and try and make your way thru the forest.
With regards to EVE - is that why CCP spent a TON of development resources (and made new intro cinematics) for their 'new player experience' - tried to add more 'handholding' for new players; and continues to try and improve/simplify the EVE interface?
You're crazy if you think that CCP isn't concerned with attracting new players and improving the starting player experience to get a player 'hooked' on the game so they'll want to come back, subscribe - and buy that $60.00 Monacle. it's just good business.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
With regards to EVE - is that why CCP spent a TON of development resources (and made new intro cinematics) for their 'new player experience' - tried to add more 'handholding' for new players; and continues to try and improve/simplify the EVE interface?
You're crazy if you think that CCP isn't concerned with attracting new players and improving the starting player experience to get a player 'hooked' on the game so they'll want to come back, subscribe - and buy that $60.00 Monacle. it's just good business.
LOL. Don't get me started on the debacle that was 'Monaclegate.' As for their cinematics, they have a way of being a bit disingenuous, rather than instructive, as the ships in their CGI can do a whole lot more than in-game. Anyway, carebear as I am, I left EVE a while back already. Never ever seen me even a half-way decent tutorial, though.
LOL. Don't get me started on the debacle that was 'Monaclegate.' As for their cinematics, they have a way of being a bit disingenuous, rather than instructive, as the ships in their CGI can do a whole lot more than in-game. Anyway, carebear as I am, I left EVE a while back already. Never ever seen me even a half-way decent tutorial, though.
Agreed with some of that, but last time I was there, about 6 months ago, I think, they did have a fair tutorial mission series with the agents. Could it be better? Maybe, I was looking at it through a vets eyes, so I don't know how much it really helps a newb, but I think it was at least half way decent, IMHO.
Getting on the topic of THIS games FED tutorial, I don't think it is that bad compared to the new KDF and ROM in terms of telling people how to play. Where it now lacks is in storyline. Here you have KDF and ROM, both with lots of voice overs, very shiny, and very slick. Comapred to that, the FED tutorial is very dated, and could probably use a facelift in parts. But I think that's only part of the problem. The rest of the problem is that the fed missions are also all dated compared to the ROM and KDF early level missions (up to level 30 ish). Again, this probably only needs polishing up, but it is still needed.
For the Foundry, the wheels of progress continue to grind slowly. Because Cryptic can't entertain any Neverwinter ideas until after Neverwinter has formally launched. Which is tedious. But I get it. My speculation is that Season 9 will likely bring improvement for The Foundry in much the same way as Legacy of Romulus has for the general game experience.
And because I think our Community Manager is spot on, "Well said, PWE_Branflakes!". I agree completely with the importance of improving the Federation tutorial. Which I was thinking about the entire time I was testing the Romulan and KDF tutorials.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
I recall one of the Devs, can't remember if it was Dan or Gecko, in an interview pre-LOR that a rather large percentage of new players (AKA new customers) that quit the game during the tutorial and never play again. They also mentioned that once a player completes the tutorial they have very good rate of retainage on that player until at least level cap.
If they can't keep players past the tutorial all the end game content in the universe won't help, and at the end of the day the more people paying the more staff that Cryptic can hire to work on the game.
Its all fine and dandy to say new players should just use other resources to figure out the game, and bad tutorials are par for the course of MMOs, but people who say those things don't really have a grasp on the changing market.
The MMO market is saturated, it has been for a long time, most "new" players to MMOs are players who never played a MMO before, and they aren't hard core bleeding edge gamers, they aren't like the type of players that typically would post on a game forum (which is usually 1-5% of total players at best according to a variety of MMO CMs over the years) they won't hit their heads against the wall trying to make it all work like many of us would, they will just quit and go elsewhere.
They also won't notice many of the bugs whose severity is driven more by hyperbole than it is by actual impact the bug has. Not to say that more shouldn't be done about bugs, but really, players have cried wolf about the severity of many of the bugs for so long it has to be hard to take seriously the real impact they have at the point. Every major release has "broken the game beyond belief!" except not really.
Irrelevant. Time spent on making tutorials is simply not time spent elsewhere, is the point you're missing.
And time spent on, say, bugfixes, is time not spent on endgame content. And time spent on endgame content is time not spent on gameplay balance passes. And time spent on balance passes is time not spent on crafting. And time spent on crafting is time not spent on exploration. And so on, and so forth, until you're left with the inevitable truth that no matter where you put the time now, someplace else always needs it too.
Time spent anywhere is time not spent on something else. This is obvious. The question is, what needs that time, when does it need it, and what can be done around it by other people in other departments. For instance, a tutorial revamp does not necessarily require costume guys or all of your bugfix guys, so these things can go on alongside the revamp.
The fact is, the Fed tutorial has every reason to be brought up to par with at least the new KDF tutorial. It's a matter of quality presentation as much as any other thing they could go fix, and this is the one new players are most likely to notice being bad out of the gate. So, it needs to be attended to, if not necessarily before more important things like exploration and crafting.
It's life, Jim... and exactly as we predicted it was going to be! Yes, captains, our site is now back! We wish to thank all of you for your patience during this unforeseen outage, and wish to assure you that the Betazed on the crew has been sent off for re-tuning.
Comments
it's not as bad as you guys are painting the picture of it. perhaps they never made it passed the fed tutorial because they wanted to play from the start kdf, romulan or even cardassian. lack of them options is enough to make any one turn away. i'm not surprised people would stop playing if they was forced to play fed. especially if that was never their flavour. since beta I wish I had a pound(or even a dollar) for each time people used to ask how they could make a kdf character. the answers was always met with a huge amount of disappointment. thankfully that's fixed now. personally I think you should do hardly anything fed side and watch the other 1.5 factions grow. there is reasons why most players are fed in this game and it's not because they have a massively failing tutorial.... see what i'm saying :P
This is absolutely spot on. A strong tutorial, and opening to the game in general, is the best way to grab players who are giving the game a shot. Encouraging these players to keep going is the best way to grow and sustain the game.
I agree with Branflakes on this a new fed tutorial would bring new players in but with the new KDF and romulan tutorial they have done the same. So I can see both sides of the argument here but to stop making fed side content will only hurt the game more as being a member of the KDF and being overlooked time and time again for there own standalone content I wouldn't wish that on the KDF worst enemy.
Most people want to have one character in each faction so they can play multiple styles of play and although I prefer my KDF character I still play my Fed and my Fed has a lot invested. However I would like to go back in the journal and revisit the tutorials so I can play the new KDF tutorial with my existing KDF character. So this could be something that could be organised on all factions
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I also agree with that statement. A brand new player who just installed the game and created their character will necessarily play the tutorial... These are the first few minutes someone can stay and play or leave and uninstall the game... More players, more stuff for you and that new person. End game can only happen with people are kept on board.
agreed, infact I tried and uninstall DCU solo on tutorial. That said there something as important that needs lots of work at cryptic.
Quality control and bug fixing. I hope that the next big thing look at.
You, sir, are completely right. the tutorital sets the mood for the levelling, it is a part of the levelling and story arc and a good tutorial is awesome and will definately be much appreciated.
All MMO's are overwhelming at first, whether it be EVE Online or Star Trek Online. No amount of tutorials is going to overcome that. Which is why EVE Online doesn't even have a tutorial any more (or something so rudimentary, it isn't worth the name). People playing MMO's know this. They don't just walk away because it's difficult the first few days. The usual way to overcome is to find the nearest help channel -- or figure out the de facto help channels, like ESD zone (or DS9, if they can tear themselves away from Gorn jokes long enough), and try and make your way thru the forest.
You're (understandably) taking the typical management perspective. Whereas I would say "Growth leads to bugs, broken costumes, ship skins that 'accidentally' cost 750 Zen to change, to respec being broken, to boffs no longer showing up correctly on your bridge. And even more growth leads to even lesser chance of PWE ever willing to fix the older bugs."
See? You're thinking about the new customers; I'm thinking about the existing ones. Yes, I know you think game growth will be good for the old customers too. But Dstahl has already admitted you guys really don't have enough staff to do proper QA on your expansions. Hence, your 'growth' just leads to more breakage. Instead, all y'all should be treating STO as if you were a medical doctor, and the game your patient: "Above All, Do No Harm!"
Exactly!
I am so sick of all this "new expansion was great success!" BS being spewed by Dstahl when it clearly broke the game beyond reason. OF COURSE players old and new are going to log in like there's no tomorrow when a new expansion for the game is being released, this is pure cause and effect, but does that make it a success? Perhaps to someone with the mindset of a child!
There is another organism that considers growth a success purely on the sake of "growth = success", can you guess what that is? A virus!
Seems a paradigm shift is needed when it comes to the mindset of Cryptic.
Growth should never be put in front of functionality, if there is opportunity there to grow at the expense of breaking what you already have, then you are indeed no better than a parasite that is in desperate need of a cure!
Well said Brandon. Regardless of what anyone does however there will always be the group that is unhappy with whatever is going on. And thats ok. If the overall view of what has taken place is positive than the group that is unhappy is inconsequential. Don't mistake what I am saying as "they dont matter", they very much do matter, they are customers just like everyone else. But to expect everything perfect on the first try is stupidity at its finest.
There will ALWAYS be bugs. Some bigger than others. And yes, they will be frustrating at times. But if you dont over react and just let things flow, then things will get fixed. Maybe not as fast as YOU want, but they will be fixed.
One last thing...
Terms or phrases that are overused by online playerbases:
1. I am gonna quit if you dont fix X.
2. There are so many people who are upset with X.
And thats all I have to say for today.
The point you're entirely missing is that a tutorial is more than a giant scrolling list of "this button does this", before throwing the player headfirst into a game. It's an opportunity to set the atmosphere, lay the groundwork for story elements, and generally introduce the player to the game.
Currently the KDF, and to a lesser degree the Romulan, tutorials do an excellent job of setting the scenes and making a player feel as though they're a part of the respective faction. The Fed tutorial...not so much.
And there is always going to be "the group" that is happy to defend Cryptic no matter what they do.
Perhaps they are "overused" for a reason!
How can you ever hope to fix something if you never acknowledge that said something is indeed broken!
Denial is truly ugly.
Not at all. I have just learned to accept that there will be bugs, no matter what game I am playing. If to you that means I am in denial then so be it. But threatening them that you are going to leave, or speaking for everyone when you do not have that privilege just isnt cool. I dont know where most of yall have grown up, and quite frankly I dont care, but I was raised on the principals of respect and dignity. Given they dont have a whole lot to do with this particular conversation, but I am not gonna blow my top when something gets broke, because lets be frank, **** happens.
As for acknowledging things, believe me I acknowledge alot, but like I said, I dont blow my stack every time something breaks.
[citation needed]
Most people in any MMO play one faction nearly exclusively. Most people in any MMO play one character far in excess of any other.
And finally, most Star Trek fans identify with the Federation more than any other faction. This is because for 28 seasons (29 if you count the Animated Series) and 12 movies, the Federation have been the protagonists.
I don't doubt many players want to have characters in every faction, and I'm definitely one of them, but "most people" really don't. This would not change if the other factions had identical amounts of content. It wouldn't even change if the Klingons and Romulans had more and better content than the Federation.
Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, the fact is that this is a game based on a bunch of TV shows about the Federation. It is therefore of necessity a game about the Federation. If they can also give a good experience for fans of the Klingons and Romulans, and for the inevitable subset of people who instinctively choose the bad guys in any game, super; but if they don't focus the majority of the development on the majority of the customers, they will fail. If they fail, the game goes away, or development of it goes away.
You seem to grasp the concept of opportunity, but not that opportunity cost. Which is to say, working on fancy tutorials goes, inevitably, at the expense of time and resourses best spent elsewhere. In that vein, it's all a matter of priority. It's like making a crappy coffee machine, and then spend countless hours not of fixing your product, but on... writing the manual! See, to any sane person it would appear obvious that a decent manual, whilst cute, is secondary to bringing out a decent product. Not in the minds of Cryptic, though, apparently.
P.S. You guys in this thread are hilarious. Eagerly awaiting your next "Well said, Boss!" posts!
P.P.S. It just occured to me, that, in the minds of marketing folks, presenting a fancy 'front page' actually *is* more important than a good product. But let's not go there, as the universe would probably collapse under so much cynisism.
Flawed analogy is flawed. Game tutorials exist within the game, not outside it. And you know damn well a tutorial mission is something entirely different than a reference manual.
Secondly, the argument that somehow taking the time to make a solid tutorial is going to starve out content development...that's just hilarious. A tutorial mission, especially if well done, *is* content. The very best tutorial missions are those that pair guidance with storytelling and gameplay. Both the Romulan and KDF tutorials do this (introducing game concepts while providing a grounding in the storyline and setting the player is stepping into) exceedingly well.
The Fed intro by comparison is noticeably bland and boring, and entirely disconnected with the entire Fed storyline.
But hey, why bother advocating for improving something when you can just bash bash bash, or insult those willing to actually give credit when an organization actually gets something right?
Irrelevant. Time spent on making tutorials is simply not time spent elsewhere, is the point you're missing.
Nice strawman. Except I wasn't talking about tutorials not being content, but about creating tutorials taking away time from *fixing* the now horrendeously broken product first.
Funny, I was just thinking along similar lines: why advocate real improvement when you can just take the opportunity to suck up to the boss? Which is why I usually ignore threads like this, as the responses invariably always consist of the same, trite one-liners (or variations thereto); like:
"You can't please em all!"
"There's always a few!"
"Haters will hate!"
"Blah!"
Or, i.c., "Well said, Boss!" (aka "Look at me being one of the good guys, boss! Aren't you proud of me?!")
And yes, it does annoy me somewhat, as, instead of prioritizing what needs to be fixed first (which, if they had the cojones to put up a poll about would overwhelmingly be 'getting rid of all nasty regression bugs first'), all these discussions end the same: with people who love grandstanding more than just looking at things rationally.
So, on that note, have fun with your tutorial; and, meanwhile, I hope to have imparted some sense of urgency on the devs to straighten out their product first.
Both where well written and exciting to play through
Thanks for the revamp that gives life and meaning to the KDF at the lowest level of the game by taking the time to fix that aspect of the broken faction.
I greatly appreciate it as a fan of the IP and the Empire.
R.I.P
The irony of that statement coming from someone doing nothing but grandstanding is absolutely adorable.
I've played the federation tutorial a dozen times. Each time I would see about half the players quit at various stages during the tutorial.
Given the high turnover rate of STO (and probably most other MMOs) new players are always needed and it is best not to have them leave the game before they start
With regards to EVE - is that why CCP spent a TON of development resources (and made new intro cinematics) for their 'new player experience' - tried to add more 'handholding' for new players; and continues to try and improve/simplify the EVE interface?
You're crazy if you think that CCP isn't concerned with attracting new players and improving the starting player experience to get a player 'hooked' on the game so they'll want to come back, subscribe - and buy that $60.00 Monacle.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
LOL. Don't get me started on the debacle that was 'Monaclegate.' As for their cinematics, they have a way of being a bit disingenuous, rather than instructive, as the ships in their CGI can do a whole lot more than in-game. Anyway, carebear as I am, I left EVE a while back already. Never ever seen me even a half-way decent tutorial, though.
it might be in itunes ny now
I am mad now :mad:
what is taking so long then:(
Agreed with some of that, but last time I was there, about 6 months ago, I think, they did have a fair tutorial mission series with the agents. Could it be better? Maybe, I was looking at it through a vets eyes, so I don't know how much it really helps a newb, but I think it was at least half way decent, IMHO.
Getting on the topic of THIS games FED tutorial, I don't think it is that bad compared to the new KDF and ROM in terms of telling people how to play. Where it now lacks is in storyline. Here you have KDF and ROM, both with lots of voice overs, very shiny, and very slick. Comapred to that, the FED tutorial is very dated, and could probably use a facelift in parts. But I think that's only part of the problem. The rest of the problem is that the fed missions are also all dated compared to the ROM and KDF early level missions (up to level 30 ish). Again, this probably only needs polishing up, but it is still needed.
Nouveau riche LTS member
http://beta.priorityonepodcast.com/
No need to be sad. :cool:
I do enjoy Watts Klingon composition.
For the Foundry, the wheels of progress continue to grind slowly. Because Cryptic can't entertain any Neverwinter ideas until after Neverwinter has formally launched. Which is tedious. But I get it. My speculation is that Season 9 will likely bring improvement for The Foundry in much the same way as Legacy of Romulus has for the general game experience.
And because I think our Community Manager is spot on, "Well said, PWE_Branflakes!". I agree completely with the importance of improving the Federation tutorial. Which I was thinking about the entire time I was testing the Romulan and KDF tutorials.
If they can't keep players past the tutorial all the end game content in the universe won't help, and at the end of the day the more people paying the more staff that Cryptic can hire to work on the game.
Its all fine and dandy to say new players should just use other resources to figure out the game, and bad tutorials are par for the course of MMOs, but people who say those things don't really have a grasp on the changing market.
The MMO market is saturated, it has been for a long time, most "new" players to MMOs are players who never played a MMO before, and they aren't hard core bleeding edge gamers, they aren't like the type of players that typically would post on a game forum (which is usually 1-5% of total players at best according to a variety of MMO CMs over the years) they won't hit their heads against the wall trying to make it all work like many of us would, they will just quit and go elsewhere.
They also won't notice many of the bugs whose severity is driven more by hyperbole than it is by actual impact the bug has. Not to say that more shouldn't be done about bugs, but really, players have cried wolf about the severity of many of the bugs for so long it has to be hard to take seriously the real impact they have at the point. Every major release has "broken the game beyond belief!" except not really.
And time spent on, say, bugfixes, is time not spent on endgame content. And time spent on endgame content is time not spent on gameplay balance passes. And time spent on balance passes is time not spent on crafting. And time spent on crafting is time not spent on exploration. And so on, and so forth, until you're left with the inevitable truth that no matter where you put the time now, someplace else always needs it too.
Time spent anywhere is time not spent on something else. This is obvious. The question is, what needs that time, when does it need it, and what can be done around it by other people in other departments. For instance, a tutorial revamp does not necessarily require costume guys or all of your bugfix guys, so these things can go on alongside the revamp.
The fact is, the Fed tutorial has every reason to be brought up to par with at least the new KDF tutorial. It's a matter of quality presentation as much as any other thing they could go fix, and this is the one new players are most likely to notice being bad out of the gate. So, it needs to be attended to, if not necessarily before more important things like exploration and crafting.
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