There is no "unsportsman-like" build for a BoP. Universal slots mixed with the lowest shield and hull in the game on a fast moving platform demands simple but effective tricks to disable a foe long enough to get a shot in to kill.
Nothing you said justify the continued use of a known exploit just because Cryptic can't be bothered fixing it, as they do vis-a-vis a ton other bugs and exploits. BoP has less slots and shields than other ships because it's by design - it's not meant to be an end-game ship, that's why. Nothing forced you to use it given that there are plenty other ships that KDF has that are far more solid and well rounded without the stated disadvantage. It's akin to say I really like my Tier 4 Galaxy class due it its classic feel, then complained about it has less boff slots and lesser hull / shielding and therefore, its only viable use it to abuse on some known exploit. :rolleyes: A ship that doesn't have the full complement of slots and etc. is not meant to be an end game ship to begin with. If KDF has no comparable end game ships in terms of hull / shielding and boff slots and this is the best thing you have, then yes, you have a a legitimate complaint. As it stands, all these attempts to continue to justify the use of such cheats and yes, very dishonorable tactics is simply unacceptable. I denounce the abuses of these exploits equally whether the Klink or a Fed does it, back when some Feds slotted 5 human boff to have +300% in hull heal - that too was cheating, pure and simple and something I cannot condone either.
Until Cryptic got a spine to fix these BoP exploits, I am going to stick to my newly minted Romulan Starfleet Captain in his Sci whether in Kerrat or PvP vs Klinks.
The problem, honestly, I find from watching Thissler's videos on YouTube is that she REPEATEDLY nukes a tough cruiser to death in less than 2 seconds. Rear shields drop instantly, hull goes from full to 5% in a single hit, then dead.
the highlight reals are often the exception, not the rule. a TT or RSP stops these attacks cold. in this vid, me in the falaxy tanked quite a few attacks due to quick reacting on my part.
Nothing you said justify the continued use of a known exploit just because Cryptic can't be bothered fixing it, as they do vis-a-vis a ton other bugs and exploits. BoP has less slots and shields than other ships because it's by design - it's not meant to be an end-game ship, that's why. Nothing forced you to use it given that there are plenty other ships that KDF has that are far more solid and well rounded without the stated disadvantage. It's akin to say I really like my Tier 4 Galaxy class due it its classic feel, then complained about it has less boff slots and lesser hull / shielding and therefore, its only viable use it to abuse on some known exploit. :rolleyes: A ship that doesn't have the full complement of slots and etc. is not meant to be an end game ship to begin with. If KDF has no comparable end game ships in terms of hull / shielding and boff slots and this is the best thing you have, then yes, you have a a legitimate complaint. As it stands, all these attempts to continue to justify the use of such cheats and yes, very dishonorable tactics is simply unacceptable. I denounce the abuses of these exploits equally whether the Klink or a Fed does it, back when some Feds slotted 5 human boff to have +300% in hull heal - that too was cheating, pure and simple and something I cannot condone either.
Until Cryptic got a spine to fix these BoP exploits, I am going to stick to my newly minted Romulan Starfleet Captain in his Sci whether in Kerrat or PvP vs Klinks.
What exploit? I did not see you state an exploit at all. Just ***** about a ship you seem to hate for some reason.
Cloaking is not an exploit.
PSW is not an exploit.
CRF, TB, TS..... None of these are exploits.
Nor are they mentioned in your somewhat angry sounding post.
Infact I see no actual mention of an exploit at all by you.
Just a lot of bitchin
Whats wrong? Thissler Minimax Me or anybody been picking on you?
That unreasoning hate for such a fragile ship has got to comming from somewhere.
TRIBBLE bells, I said nothing but the truth in my post.
If the BoP is such an "endgame" ship why do the skies not run red in the premades, slaughtering all with ease?
Well, I like to give folks SOME chance of resisting. Just to make it fair, y'know? I could run a build that stocks more disables/stuns if I wanted to :P
And thats the greatness of raider class. Utility paid for with fragility.
A PsW build is an old build but a good one. Do you use all cannons, DHCs and BO3 shot, or what to lower the shields during the stun.
How do you react to the experienced cruisers who bounce your alpha?
Im seriuos. This wierd hatred against the BoP have in this thread is silly and blinded by wounded pride I think if such a fragile but swiss army knife (saw a BoP healer once, was amazing) vessel makes them bark so loud.
You know why the Targ barks dont you?
That won't be necessary. Now that Romulans have better cloaks than Klinks thanks to each Romulan boff having up to 2 space traits, including the stacking subterfuge, the Klink BoP can no longer alpha a well spec Fed-Rom ship. Put it simply, you can't alpha something that you can't see. On the other hand, I just re-spec my Rom to have +115 in Starship Sensors + EptA + Sensor Scan 3. Will be doing some testing with fleetmates later to test how effective this set up in catching those cloaked BoP cheaters but I suspect I won't need to add Tachyon Detection Field. The nice thing about EptA is that it can be activiated while under cloak. BoP won't even have the chance to raise shields before they become star dust...
I was in a KDF pug once - 9/10 a KDF pug will beat a Fed pug- usually due to better teamwork.
This time we came up against a 5 pre-made group of Oddys.
FAW and chain healing in a tight 5 km circle.
We were vapourized 1/15
Could not separate them - could not break them - 1 was disable the other covered.
They were each running 7 beams and 1 torp - almost full power and beam up-time - tractors and some sci powers
The FAW was blinding.
Don't tell me Fed crusiers are useless.
I seem to recall advocating that some people try this approach not too long ago. A simple extend circle with FAW+DEM+Embassy console plasma procs (Possibly with new tholian tets if they are any good) should be able to survive anything and even if everyone on the other team manages to keep shield up their hulls should get shredded with no small thanks to leadership and 2pc borg nerf.
The problem, honestly, I find from watching Thissler's videos on YouTube is that she REPEATEDLY nukes a tough cruiser to death in less than 2 seconds. Rear shields drop instantly, hull goes from full to 5% in a single hit, then dead.
Sure, this is great fun for people like Thissler, and don't get me wrong, I am in awe of and commend her ability, and other people who can pull off kills like this. But y'know what? It's no fun at all for the person who's suddenly dead for no apparent reason...oh, BoP cheese, that's what happened. Ready, Set, Dead is not a fun PvP experience. I'm not saying only winning is fun, but being at full strength one second and dead the next is not fun because it wasn't a fight, it wasn't engaging, it wasn't a "fun battle." They just killed you.
For people like me, who WANT to PvP, but are a bit intimidated to dip our toe in the pool, this is a huge reason of why we queue up for a few matches, but eventually lose heart and interest and just quit altogether because being on the receiving end of that just isn't fun. Yeah, I know you PvP vets throw out the same tripe in different words. The jackasses will say "lrn2play carebear" and the helpful people will provide tips and strategies for how to defend against such alpha strikes. However, such insta-kills just should never happen, in ANY game, because they're not fun to deal with. Especially when the hulking monstrosities that are cruisers (lol I know, but that's what they're SUPPOSED to be) are seen as laughably free kills by the smallest, most fragile ships in the game (Birds of Prey).
Which brings me to another point of Thissler's videos (again, I commend her skill, she's amazing). Several times, she decloaks and instagibs somebody, and that somebody's team is near instantaneous in their reaction, switching to focus-fire her little BoP, trying to lock her down with tractor beams. Literally barely a second passes between her decloak and when she starts getting shot at, and yet because of ridiculous things like APO, she's able to lolololololol away and get away scott-free, having taken virtually no damage (seriously, her shields didn't even drop). In one video, she even has the gall to say in zone chat "bit touchy aren't we?", taunting them. With things like this going on, and the following taunts that rub that invulnerability in people's faces, is it any wonder PvP is dead to all but the most dedicated and hardcore PvPers?
Now, I'm not posting this with any sort of agenda. I'm not screaming to nerf this, buff that, or any such thing. I'm merely stating the observations that *I* have made over the years of this game's development and growth. Yes, I'm aware that people like Thissler are amazingly skilled, kudos to them, really. Yes, I'm aware that these people have min/maxed their builds to the iota of ideal performance. Yes, I'm aware that some of these people have hundreds of dollars worth of gaming keyboards and mice and have keybinds setup out the wahzoo. Yes, I'm aware that these people have the absolute best gear in the game. So that leaves the question...what are new PvPers supposed to do? Telling us to just keep playing, keep getting our asses handed to us, and learn isn't very helpful because, and this may come as a shock to you pros...getting our asses handed to us for days and even weeks on end, every single time, with absolutely zero chance of even a remotely fair fight? That's not fun. It's frustrating, and most people aren't going to stick with it. Why? Because outside of bragging rights and e-peen stroking, there's no REASON to stick with PvP in this game. So if it's not fun and doesn't get me anywhere...why do it at all?
I had the gall to do this for two reasons. First, those feds just wiped out every other KDF on the map. And second, the guy I hit was a guy that's on my friends list and who also comments on my video channel. A lot of us know each other. Normally if a player is new our obviously weak I won't just punish them over and over. If we're ever in a match you will see my kills are low. But relatively consistent. Some players get 40 kills from going the other way with that. And then it's a tough match and they have zero kills and lots of deaths.
I spent a LOOOONG time doing pvp videos with mk x gear. You can watch my first build video from almost a year ago. That's the gear I used till I got a fleet norgh. So u can be assured that for months my gear was (and still sorta is) sub par. No macros, point and click. and i have a 25$ keyboard. from germany. the damn enter key is in the wrong spot. boooo on that.
So there! And as an aside, a year ago, and more, the BOP was the laughing stock of the forums. LOL if i see a bop i'll LOL and blow it up LOL they suck. No really. Search some of those threads.
And I do explain in detail how I do what I do and how to properly defend against it. There are several very good fun videos up there showing Marmot Fails and Federation Defense Wins.
I take pains to show anyone that cares to see exactly how I do things. No secrets here. And it is something that anyone can achieve. There are NO exclusive defense items or powers in that build.
And you're right getting popped is zero fun. This is why I took the steps I took when I returned to STO PVP in the middle of the MACO/Faw/ACC disaster. But I've also taken steps to share all the tools that I use with the community at large.
And some LOL's too. So please try to get some of the good information off of there, join a pvp group, bootcamp, something. Do some private challenges for fun. There's MANY pvp'rs that would lend a hand.
Not me, i'm a jerk, but i hear there's others.
EDIT: And yes the Insta Kills are a design flaw of the game. It's intended, but it isn't fun. The way cooldowns are handled in this game and choice to not include a global cooldown are one half of that equation, the other half would be the acc/def/crit triangle. I've posted to death on that so no need to go over it again. Cheers and good luck!
What exploit? I did not see you state an exploit at all. Just ***** about a ship you seem to hate for some reason.
Cloaking is not an exploit.
PSW is not an exploit.
CRF, TB, TS..... None of these are exploits.
Nor are they mentioned in your somewhat angry sounding post.
Infact I see no actual mention of an exploit at all by you.
Just a lot of bitchin
Whats wrong? Thissler Minimax Me or anybody been picking on you?
That unreasoning hate for such a fragile ship has got to comming from somewhere.
TRIBBLE bells, I said nothing but the truth in my post.
If the BoP is such an "endgame" ship why do the skies not run red in the premades, slaughtering all with ease?
So whats that exploit again the BoP does?
Its not your fault, the BoP is basically a flying exploit. It always has been and you Klingon's wonder why not many Federation players are interested in playing PvP. Its because of the whole Klingon persecution complex which the Klingons have when they have perhaps the most tactically powerful ships in the game.
The game would not be half as bad if the Klingon playerbase were not so whiney and would not resort to using Transphasic mines which are just broken in the 20th degree.
You do not seem to get that you make yourself look bad.
I'm not flying a cruiser, have tried to set one up, did fairly good with it.
It's just the amby, but got it pretty nice still, nothing compared to a perfectly built assault cruiser or a excell.
I can say this tho, as i have said many times....
I've met cruisers that shredd my escort in minutes [a2b on mine], and this has been one on one.
So saying that cruisers have no purpose, is totally wrong.
I have also said that there are a bit more work with cruisers than there is with escorts.
Some succeed, and some dont.
It's only one thing to do, try, if that doesn't work, keep at it!
:-)
Cruisers have one inherent problem, its takes a while to build them up to be the ship you expect it to be.
Escorts have the advantage of being high damage right out of the shipyard with only MK 11 blues picked up from the exchange for weapons. For the cruiser to work correctly it needs the top end tier stuff.
Take for instance my fleet excelsior. Before i got the 2 piece borg set, i was using the Aegis set, i was killed quite a bit. Once i got the borg 2 piece set and the maco shield, then the fleet anti proton cannons/turrets, fleet anti proton beams and now the romulan plasma beams and all the goodies which increase plasma damage its a different ship.
Ive seen that ship tank a jem bug and an andorian escort, and while they are behind me, the romulan plasma torp and the 3 beams at the back are making them think twice of staying back there.
Ive seen oddys on the opposite team being wailed on by a d'kora, me, and a HEC and not even flinching.
Cruisers take time, and top end reputation to bring the inline with an escort, the PVP match i just left had me second overall damage in a 5v5 team and there was a lot of escorts in there.
The only thing cryptic need to do in order to bring the cruiser line at least slight behind the escorts, is to make them powerfull straight out the shipyard with lower end weapons, like most of the escorts are able to do.
However, me and all cruiser captains know that this will never happen, because Cryptic are all about the Pew Pew, thats why this game is Star Trek: In Name Only.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
the highlight reals are often the exception, not the rule. a TT or RSP stops these attacks cold. in this vid, me in the falaxy tanked quite a few attacks due to quick reacting on my part.
these beautiful alphas are quite hard to pull off, require the right circumstances, and timing has to be absolutely perfect.
Yeah, with me it's about 1 target out of 15-20 that I get to kill like that, with a flawless approach, decloak + BO2 + HY3 torps + TB2s = enemy goes boom. Most of the time they manage to shrug it off with minimal damage, or I manage to hit them hard but they limp away with 10-20% health. That's why I REALLY like working with a decent BoP wingman who can coordinate his attacks with mine to catch the opponent with a second decloak alpha, perhaps after a subnuke that clears his hastily-raised buffs.
And thats the greatness of raider class. Utility paid for with fragility.
A PsW build is an old build but a good one. Do you use all cannons, DHCs and BO3 shot, or what to lower the shields during the stun.
How do you react to the experienced cruisers who bounce your alpha?
Im seriuos. This wierd hatred against the BoP have in this thread is silly and blinded by wounded pride I think if such a fragile but swiss army knife (saw a BoP healer once, was amazing) vessel makes them bark so loud.
You know why the Targ barks dont you?
I use a build similar to one I've seen Thissler use before. . .BO2, HY3 quantum torps, and Tractor Beam 2. I don't have it 100% optimized with all the best consoles, but it generally does the trick if I'm quick enough. I've been thinking I should really throw in a reliable stun, just to keep up with the performance of the blasted Romulans.
If my target repels the attack without taking a lot of damage, I just circle him a bit and then fall back and line up for another shot or pick a different target. If he HAS taken a lot of damage and doesn't pull a massive hull or shield heal out of his TRIBBLE, I might try to take him down with my two DHCs on rapidfire and whatnot, but the odds of that really working are kinda low.
And yeah, the hate against the BoP is weird. For every BoP pilot I see that generally kicks butt, I see one that doesn't do quite as good of a job and really demonstrates the weakness of the BoP class, or they're running a B'rel retrofit and not doing a good job of it (just biting someone's ankles, rather than really hammering them with kinetic damage and bleedthroughs). There are good pilots, and bad pilots. The good pilots (and I like to think of myself as reasonably good, but far from the best) are the ones that get people pissed off.
Its not your fault, the BoP is basically a flying exploit. It always has been and you Klingon's wonder why not many Federation players are interested in playing PvP. Its because of the whole Klingon persecution complex which the Klingons have when they have perhaps the most tactically powerful ships in the game.
The game would not be half as bad if the Klingon playerbase were not so whiney and would not resort to using Transphasic mines which are just broken in the 20th degree.
You do not seem to get that you make yourself look bad.
Your still spouting blind accusations of exploit without offering evidence that proves it.
I have no concern why the feds cry foul and hide if they can actually list this BoP exploit that they fear so much in fvK pvp.
You cry about exploits and even whine about whinning but offer no proof.
Complain when the issue is not your wounded fed pride burning and you actually have found an exploit.
It's hard to belive that cruisers are easy to destroy or useless.
My sci/sci toon only use 2xTT, 2xTSS ans 2xHE (no eng abilities except a EPtW and no other tactical abilities) as defensive ability and that is enough to survive to more than an alpha strike. A cruiser has access to much more healing abilities (EPtS, AtS, RSP...) and a eng has also career's specific abilities. Moreover every ship can use doffs and devices (cruisers have 4 device's slot)... and now also feds have the plasmonic leach to increase every subsystem's energy level (shield resistance and regeneration increase with power level).
What a lot of player do not accept is that cruiser are intended to be tanker and/or healer, sci vessels are debuffer (and somehow healer) and escorts are attack ship. If you try to play your science vessel or your cruiser with the idea of dps, then you are simply wrong.... it' like flying and escort to heal your teammate.
Moreover it's also false that cruisers are useless... no escort can survive long when 2 escorts try to destroy it or a sci vessel disable it and no sci vessel can heal as much as a cruiser only cruiser can help and save such a escort... and do not forget that BFaW is perfect to destroy pets and heavy torpedo, or spam your weapon's procs.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Its not your fault, the BoP is basically a flying exploit. It always has been and you Klingon's wonder why not many Federation players are interested in playing PvP. Its because of the whole Klingon persecution complex which the Klingons have when they have perhaps the most tactically powerful ships in the game.
The game would not be half as bad if the Klingon playerbase were not so whiney and would not resort to using Transphasic mines which are just broken in the 20th degree.
You do not seem to get that you make yourself look bad.
Really? I mean - come on. BoP is no more OP then Fed science ships. Just because you have problem with dealing with it it does not mean that it's OP. I have problems with battlecruisers when flying my beamscort, but I'm not crying that BCs are OP.
Cruisers are perhaps less forgiving and harder to bring up to a good level, but of course there is a point to them: to allow one to play the game in a different fashion. Maybe they are all-round less effective than an escort. But some people play them for the challenge, others because they just like the concept of tankier ships, others for the RP aspect.
Your still spouting blind accusations of exploit without offering evidence that proves it.
I have no concern why the feds cry foul and hide if they can actually list this BoP exploit that they fear so much in fvK pvp.
You cry about exploits and even whine about whinning but offer no proof.
Complain when the issue is not your wounded fed pride burning and you actually have found an exploit.
Ok then, you want proof then. How many vessels make such extensive use of Tricolbolt which was OP and Transphasic mines with are STILL OP... Remember, if one crits... they all crit HARD. Your hull is decimated with these weapons and yet, Federation ships and other Klingon vessels do not make extensive use of this weapon.
BoP's do... the universal bring officers in connection to weapons and abilities that would normally not be OP is what makes the BoP completely OP compared to anything that isn't a lockbox ship.
Lose the all universal layout and BoP's become what they should be in PvP and the game becomes fair again. Its the introduction of other skills, abilities and consoles that have made them this way.
Cruisers are perhaps less forgiving and harder to bring up to a good level, but of course there is a point to them: to allow one to play the game in a different fashion. Maybe they are all-round less effective than an escort. But some people play them for the challenge, others because they just like the concept of tankier ships, others for the RP aspect.
They can be very unforgiving to play if they are not setup right, escorts are easy like that put the best weapons and consoles you can find and you have usually a good escort ship.
___________________________________________________________________________________
People complain about the lacking balance in game, agreed, ships are not balanced against eachother.
But are they supposed to be?
I doubt that.
But there is still balance in the game, this is made up of different types of ships used and careers used is also something that set's the balance, one way or another.
How you spend your skillpoint is 75% of what your ship will be capable of doing.
Cruisers are good ships, i dont fly them often, but i do, and that is another type of fun.
The experts on cruisers out there in the sto game universe knows this, they also know that most escorts are no threat to them.
So, cruisers are not useless.
Actually, my next ship will be a cruiser.... :-D
Ok then, you want proof then. How many vessels make such extensive use of Tricolbolt which was OP and Transphasic mines with are STILL OP... Remember, if one crits... they all crit HARD. Your hull is decimated with these weapons and yet, Federation ships and other Klingon vessels do not make extensive use of this weapon.
BoP's do... the universal bring officers in connection to weapons and abilities that would normally not be OP is what makes the BoP completely OP compared to anything that isn't a lockbox ship.
Lose the all universal layout and BoP's become what they should be in PvP and the game becomes fair again. Its the introduction of other skills, abilities and consoles that have made them this way.
All players in both factions flying any ship choice can choose to use broken equipment of consoles or what is broken that they think gives them an edge in pvp.
The feds do it
The KDF do it.
Blaiming the use of any broken item ingame is not the fault of the BoP.
Your still offering just speculative whine based on your on opinions and not fact.
Hey Roach, if memory serves, most Feds back in the day hated PvPing against Klingons for mostly the following reasons:
De-cloaking alphas from BoPs
Cloaks on KDF ships in general
Carrier spam (in particular siphon drones and Orion interceptors)
BoPs even having a Battlecloak and Universal layout
C-store consoles (Leech, Theta, AA, etc)
Drain builds
The B'rel
And probably some other stuff I am missing.
With time and Romulans, almost all that stuff is not a KDF only thing anymore.
All Romulan ships have battle cloaks, almost every decent lower tier KDF console has been traded with the Feds. The new Tal shiar ships let Feds have another two cloaking ships (in-built cloaks at that). Carrier spam is equally bad on both sides with stuff like siphons on the KDF, and Yellowstones on the Fed. De-cloaking alphas can also be done with Romulans and the new Tal shiar ships.
Drain builds I will admit can still be really really annoying to deal with.
Universal stations are given out like candy anymore. Only BoPs have full universal layouts though, so it's something at least.
On the B'rel, that takes a particularly special strategy and thought to make into a good torp/mine boat. And if that guy is right in the one-crit bug being back, then that isn't the fault of the BoPs, it's a bug, and it's a bug anyone can use (like how everyone felt like using the EPTA bug). Besides, the B'rel lacks the tac console slots to make them hurt REALLY hard, compared to the T'varo (especially the fleet version).
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Hey Roach, if memory serves, most Feds back in the day hated PvPing against Klingons for mostly the following reasons:
De-cloaking alphas from BoPs
Cloaks on KDF ships in general
Carrier spam (in particular siphon drones and Orion interceptors)
BoPs even having a Battlecloak and Universal layout
C-store consoles (Leech, Theta, AA, etc)
Drain builds
The B'rel
And probably some other stuff I am missing.
With time and Romulans, almost all that stuff is not a KDF only thing anymore.
All Romulan ships have battle cloaks, almost every decent lower tier KDF console has been traded with the Feds. The new Tal shiar ships let Feds have another two cloaking ships (in-built cloaks at that). Carrier spam is equally bad on both sides with stuff like siphons on the KDF, and Yellowstones on the Fed. De-cloaking alphas can also be done with Romulans and the new Tal shiar ships.
Drain builds I will admit can still be really really annoying to deal with.
Universal stations are given out like candy anymore. Only BoPs have full universal layouts though, so it's something at least.
On the B'rel, that takes a particularly special strategy and thought to make into a good torp/mine boat. And if that guy is right in the one-crit bug being back, then that isn't the fault of the BoPs, it's a bug, and it's a bug anyone can use (like how everyone felt like using the EPTA bug). Besides, the B'rel lacks the tac console slots to make them hurt REALLY hard, compared to the T'varo (especially the fleet version).
True, very true. The KDF has long been then villian because of our tactics and toys.
It was a valid dislike but not an OP use on our part, unless said use was using known broken items.
As you state that is no longer the case as ALL can exploit near equally in STO at this time.
The person Im in disagreement with though is only calling the BoP OP, which it is not.
I can only surmise its due to dying to a BoP or group of BoPs, which is not a sign of OP.
This is complaint of hubris that all who fight a good BoP build feel after dying but it takes a good build proprrly used to achieve.
If the BoP was OP we would have teams of them sweeping the ques. Yet we do not.
Hey Roach, if memory serves, most Feds back in the day hated PvPing against Klingons for mostly the following reasons: SNIP!!
If by back in the day you meant for more than a year following launch there was ONE huge reason PVP was hated. Especially by escort pilots. Mostly by escort pilots.
It was next to impossible for them to kill anything without an assist from a sci ship or a cruiser. If your bored take a few minutes and you can hammer out the math on it. It was next to impossible, and it is easy to prove that.
BOP's on the other hand could decloak and waste one, two or three Federation ships. Depending on how many happened to be there. Because almost ALL federation players shared a very bad habit. They sat still or moved very slowly to stay together, thus destroying their defense bonus. And for those ships that DIDN'T sit still, BOP's could have a nice tractor. Let me tell you right now, it wasn't really needed. Most guys really just didn't try to move like they needed to.
And this was all because the Acc/Def/Crit mechanic was poorly understood if at all by most players. This hasn't changed THAT much, but what has changed is that Acc has been added in generous amounts. This ended the dependencies that Escorts had while at the same time was a very hard blow against cruisers and science.
See at the same time we gave all ships the potential to gain Acc the only defense and shield balancing that was added was given to tactical.
If by back in the day you meant for more than a year following launch there was ONE huge reason PVP was hated. Especially by escort pilots. Mostly by escort pilots.
It was next to impossible for them to kill anything without an assist from a sci ship or a cruiser. If your bored take a few minutes and you can hammer out the math on it. It was next to impossible, and it is easy to prove that.
BOP's on the other hand could decloak and waste one, two or three Federation ships. Depending on how many happened to be there. Because almost ALL federation players shared a very bad habit. They sat still or moved very slowly to stay together, thus destroying their defense bonus. And for those ships that DIDN'T sit still, BOP's could have a nice tractor. Let me tell you right now, it wasn't really needed. Most guys really just didn't try to move like they needed to.
And this was all because the Acc/Def/Crit mechanic was poorly understood if at all by most players. This hasn't changed THAT much, but what has changed is that Acc has been added in generous amounts. This ended the dependencies that Escorts had while at the same time was a very hard blow against cruisers and science.
See at the same time we gave all ships the potential to gain Acc the only defense and shield balancing that was added was given to tactical.
Whoops. Small oversight.
The issue is that in a cruiser, the defense bonus is pretty much negated and there is no real point to moving. I assure you that even with the elusive trait, my cruiser still can get hit 99% of time.
Since escorts have the advantage of not being hit due to insane defense bonuses, doesn't it reason that cruisers should have much more hull and shield resistance then they currently do, something built into them like an innate 20% resistance to all weapons and kinetics?
Or better yet, have a passive which cancels out transphasic procs? To make them much more durable and competitive on the battlefield. I would love to hear any other ideas on improving cruiser pvp? Or tips on the best way to survive BoP and escort Alphas because nothing I do seems to work well EXCEPT RSP.
So instead of slagging me Klinks... how about some advice...
I have x2 Acc Fleet Weapons, the Tholian 10% beam accuracy Console and the Accurate trait and I still RARELY hit escorts... so please... impart your wisdom because I'm obviously doing something wrong here...
I love how in this game particularly, more than any other I have ever PvPed in... the line I just read about "it must be a revenge nerfcall against X because the player died to X" is about the most overused thing I have ever seen.
Seriously... enough people complain about X or Y or Z that there is obviously a problem, stop dancing the issue.
I will give you a stark example of how broken end game pvp in this game is. Pvp at any other level than 50. Go, roll a toon and queue up at say level 20. Rely on actual skill instead of minmax builds at endgame with OP combinations of crazy statted gear.
Ive done it, in fact I roll total face when I do it. Notsomuch at level 50 pvp, why? Because I havent completed my setup yet, im about 15 percent damage short since I am using blue XIs for tac consoles instead of purples, im using mk xi rep gear, not xii, i havent been able to afford the "super doffs" ... another disadvantage... a long term player has all sorts of extra buffs and stats I havent gotten yet. Those do add up. Doesnt mean I stop trying, and I do pretty well all things considered. I wonder how some of these matches ive been in would be if I was flying a gimped out JHAS with all the trimmings. I bet id stomp 90 percent of the so called "elite" in this game. I guess we will find out when i get there, huh? Til then, I guess I keep clawing my way.
I have never seen a game that relied so heavily on perfect setups to be competitive in pvp like this. You could be the best ******ned pilot in history and get roflstomped due to the gear gap.
That is the entire reason PvP in this game is so niche and has apparently reached life support stage. All you see are premade top geared players murdering casuals in every queue. You think those casuals ever come back? You wonder where your new pvpers are gonna come from?
The flaw is in the game itself, the gearing itself. A stock toon to a brand new level 50 player is about a quarter as powerful as a tricked out C-store or lockbox ship.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Fortunately like all PvP games STO has plenty of players whom would rather blaim thier poor performance on the other players, ships, consoles, etc than themselves.
Something must be wrong with the game, the other players ships are stronger, the other players weapons are stronger, the other player is just OP...... One gets tired of hearing the same complaints over and over again when a whole PvP community sits ready to help, including an out of game training school.
None of that can be helpful. One must go to the threads and *****. Why? Becuase it cant be my fault. That would be just silly.
Comments
Nothing you said justify the continued use of a known exploit just because Cryptic can't be bothered fixing it, as they do vis-a-vis a ton other bugs and exploits. BoP has less slots and shields than other ships because it's by design - it's not meant to be an end-game ship, that's why. Nothing forced you to use it given that there are plenty other ships that KDF has that are far more solid and well rounded without the stated disadvantage. It's akin to say I really like my Tier 4 Galaxy class due it its classic feel, then complained about it has less boff slots and lesser hull / shielding and therefore, its only viable use it to abuse on some known exploit. :rolleyes: A ship that doesn't have the full complement of slots and etc. is not meant to be an end game ship to begin with. If KDF has no comparable end game ships in terms of hull / shielding and boff slots and this is the best thing you have, then yes, you have a a legitimate complaint. As it stands, all these attempts to continue to justify the use of such cheats and yes, very dishonorable tactics is simply unacceptable. I denounce the abuses of these exploits equally whether the Klink or a Fed does it, back when some Feds slotted 5 human boff to have +300% in hull heal - that too was cheating, pure and simple and something I cannot condone either.
Until Cryptic got a spine to fix these BoP exploits, I am going to stick to my newly minted Romulan Starfleet Captain in his Sci whether in Kerrat or PvP vs Klinks.
the highlight reals are often the exception, not the rule. a TT or RSP stops these attacks cold. in this vid, me in the falaxy tanked quite a few attacks due to quick reacting on my part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL1Z7SbfX7U&feature=plcp
these beautiful alphas are quite hard to pull off, require the right circumstances, and timing has to be absolutely perfect.
What exploit? I did not see you state an exploit at all. Just ***** about a ship you seem to hate for some reason.
Cloaking is not an exploit.
PSW is not an exploit.
CRF, TB, TS..... None of these are exploits.
Nor are they mentioned in your somewhat angry sounding post.
Infact I see no actual mention of an exploit at all by you.
Just a lot of bitchin
Whats wrong? Thissler Minimax Me or anybody been picking on you?
That unreasoning hate for such a fragile ship has got to comming from somewhere.
TRIBBLE bells, I said nothing but the truth in my post.
If the BoP is such an "endgame" ship why do the skies not run red in the premades, slaughtering all with ease?
So whats that exploit again the BoP does?
R.I.P
And thats the greatness of raider class. Utility paid for with fragility.
A PsW build is an old build but a good one. Do you use all cannons, DHCs and BO3 shot, or what to lower the shields during the stun.
How do you react to the experienced cruisers who bounce your alpha?
Im seriuos. This wierd hatred against the BoP have in this thread is silly and blinded by wounded pride I think if such a fragile but swiss army knife (saw a BoP healer once, was amazing) vessel makes them bark so loud.
You know why the Targ barks dont you?
R.I.P
You know that EPTA exploit is being fixed right?
Its on tribble now.
R.I.P
I seem to recall advocating that some people try this approach not too long ago. A simple extend circle with FAW+DEM+Embassy console plasma procs (Possibly with new tholian tets if they are any good) should be able to survive anything and even if everyone on the other team manages to keep shield up their hulls should get shredded with no small thanks to leadership and 2pc borg nerf.
I had the gall to do this for two reasons. First, those feds just wiped out every other KDF on the map. And second, the guy I hit was a guy that's on my friends list and who also comments on my video channel. A lot of us know each other. Normally if a player is new our obviously weak I won't just punish them over and over. If we're ever in a match you will see my kills are low. But relatively consistent. Some players get 40 kills from going the other way with that. And then it's a tough match and they have zero kills and lots of deaths.
I spent a LOOOONG time doing pvp videos with mk x gear. You can watch my first build video from almost a year ago. That's the gear I used till I got a fleet norgh. So u can be assured that for months my gear was (and still sorta is) sub par. No macros, point and click. and i have a 25$ keyboard. from germany. the damn enter key is in the wrong spot. boooo on that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YATZLqO0M50
So there! And as an aside, a year ago, and more, the BOP was the laughing stock of the forums. LOL if i see a bop i'll LOL and blow it up LOL they suck. No really. Search some of those threads.
And I do explain in detail how I do what I do and how to properly defend against it. There are several very good fun videos up there showing Marmot Fails and Federation Defense Wins.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEEFBCB5E088B924C there's a couple of examples.
and another
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD22NNM1Cjw
And those are going to feature builds using vendor trash. common white items. Not very exclusive.
and as far as the lol getting away thing. not easy. and sometimes i don't. but here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMArobiYv0Y
I take pains to show anyone that cares to see exactly how I do things. No secrets here. And it is something that anyone can achieve. There are NO exclusive defense items or powers in that build.
And you're right getting popped is zero fun. This is why I took the steps I took when I returned to STO PVP in the middle of the MACO/Faw/ACC disaster. But I've also taken steps to share all the tools that I use with the community at large.
And some LOL's too. So please try to get some of the good information off of there, join a pvp group, bootcamp, something. Do some private challenges for fun. There's MANY pvp'rs that would lend a hand.
Not me, i'm a jerk, but i hear there's others.
EDIT: And yes the Insta Kills are a design flaw of the game. It's intended, but it isn't fun. The way cooldowns are handled in this game and choice to not include a global cooldown are one half of that equation, the other half would be the acc/def/crit triangle. I've posted to death on that so no need to go over it again. Cheers and good luck!
All good! It was a nice chance to show some resources to other players that may feel frustrated.
Plus that "Klingon Boarding Party" video is sooper funny. Well I think it is.
And if you watch the Trinh vids you'll see the BEST advice EVER for pvp....
First....
"make a friend"
Just not me. I'm an Evul Klingun. Ask Starwrath.
Its not your fault, the BoP is basically a flying exploit. It always has been and you Klingon's wonder why not many Federation players are interested in playing PvP. Its because of the whole Klingon persecution complex which the Klingons have when they have perhaps the most tactically powerful ships in the game.
The game would not be half as bad if the Klingon playerbase were not so whiney and would not resort to using Transphasic mines which are just broken in the 20th degree.
You do not seem to get that you make yourself look bad.
I'm not flying a cruiser, have tried to set one up, did fairly good with it.
It's just the amby, but got it pretty nice still, nothing compared to a perfectly built assault cruiser or a excell.
I can say this tho, as i have said many times....
I've met cruisers that shredd my escort in minutes [a2b on mine], and this has been one on one.
So saying that cruisers have no purpose, is totally wrong.
I have also said that there are a bit more work with cruisers than there is with escorts.
Some succeed, and some dont.
It's only one thing to do, try, if that doesn't work, keep at it!
:-)
Escorts have the advantage of being high damage right out of the shipyard with only MK 11 blues picked up from the exchange for weapons. For the cruiser to work correctly it needs the top end tier stuff.
Take for instance my fleet excelsior. Before i got the 2 piece borg set, i was using the Aegis set, i was killed quite a bit. Once i got the borg 2 piece set and the maco shield, then the fleet anti proton cannons/turrets, fleet anti proton beams and now the romulan plasma beams and all the goodies which increase plasma damage its a different ship.
Ive seen that ship tank a jem bug and an andorian escort, and while they are behind me, the romulan plasma torp and the 3 beams at the back are making them think twice of staying back there.
Ive seen oddys on the opposite team being wailed on by a d'kora, me, and a HEC and not even flinching.
Cruisers take time, and top end reputation to bring the inline with an escort, the PVP match i just left had me second overall damage in a 5v5 team and there was a lot of escorts in there.
The only thing cryptic need to do in order to bring the cruiser line at least slight behind the escorts, is to make them powerfull straight out the shipyard with lower end weapons, like most of the escorts are able to do.
However, me and all cruiser captains know that this will never happen, because Cryptic are all about the Pew Pew, thats why this game is Star Trek: In Name Only.
Yeah, with me it's about 1 target out of 15-20 that I get to kill like that, with a flawless approach, decloak + BO2 + HY3 torps + TB2s = enemy goes boom. Most of the time they manage to shrug it off with minimal damage, or I manage to hit them hard but they limp away with 10-20% health. That's why I REALLY like working with a decent BoP wingman who can coordinate his attacks with mine to catch the opponent with a second decloak alpha, perhaps after a subnuke that clears his hastily-raised buffs.
I use a build similar to one I've seen Thissler use before. . .BO2, HY3 quantum torps, and Tractor Beam 2. I don't have it 100% optimized with all the best consoles, but it generally does the trick if I'm quick enough. I've been thinking I should really throw in a reliable stun, just to keep up with the performance of the blasted Romulans.
If my target repels the attack without taking a lot of damage, I just circle him a bit and then fall back and line up for another shot or pick a different target. If he HAS taken a lot of damage and doesn't pull a massive hull or shield heal out of his TRIBBLE, I might try to take him down with my two DHCs on rapidfire and whatnot, but the odds of that really working are kinda low.
And yeah, the hate against the BoP is weird. For every BoP pilot I see that generally kicks butt, I see one that doesn't do quite as good of a job and really demonstrates the weakness of the BoP class, or they're running a B'rel retrofit and not doing a good job of it (just biting someone's ankles, rather than really hammering them with kinetic damage and bleedthroughs). There are good pilots, and bad pilots. The good pilots (and I like to think of myself as reasonably good, but far from the best) are the ones that get people pissed off.
Your still spouting blind accusations of exploit without offering evidence that proves it.
I have no concern why the feds cry foul and hide if they can actually list this BoP exploit that they fear so much in fvK pvp.
You cry about exploits and even whine about whinning but offer no proof.
Complain when the issue is not your wounded fed pride burning and you actually have found an exploit.
R.I.P
My sci/sci toon only use 2xTT, 2xTSS ans 2xHE (no eng abilities except a EPtW and no other tactical abilities) as defensive ability and that is enough to survive to more than an alpha strike. A cruiser has access to much more healing abilities (EPtS, AtS, RSP...) and a eng has also career's specific abilities. Moreover every ship can use doffs and devices (cruisers have 4 device's slot)... and now also feds have the plasmonic leach to increase every subsystem's energy level (shield resistance and regeneration increase with power level).
What a lot of player do not accept is that cruiser are intended to be tanker and/or healer, sci vessels are debuffer (and somehow healer) and escorts are attack ship. If you try to play your science vessel or your cruiser with the idea of dps, then you are simply wrong.... it' like flying and escort to heal your teammate.
Moreover it's also false that cruisers are useless... no escort can survive long when 2 escorts try to destroy it or a sci vessel disable it and no sci vessel can heal as much as a cruiser only cruiser can help and save such a escort... and do not forget that BFaW is perfect to destroy pets and heavy torpedo, or spam your weapon's procs.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Really? I mean - come on. BoP is no more OP then Fed science ships. Just because you have problem with dealing with it it does not mean that it's OP. I have problems with battlecruisers when flying my beamscort, but I'm not crying that BCs are OP.
Ok then, you want proof then. How many vessels make such extensive use of Tricolbolt which was OP and Transphasic mines with are STILL OP... Remember, if one crits... they all crit HARD. Your hull is decimated with these weapons and yet, Federation ships and other Klingon vessels do not make extensive use of this weapon.
BoP's do... the universal bring officers in connection to weapons and abilities that would normally not be OP is what makes the BoP completely OP compared to anything that isn't a lockbox ship.
Lose the all universal layout and BoP's become what they should be in PvP and the game becomes fair again. Its the introduction of other skills, abilities and consoles that have made them this way.
They can be very unforgiving to play if they are not setup right, escorts are easy like that put the best weapons and consoles you can find and you have usually a good escort ship.
___________________________________________________________________________________
People complain about the lacking balance in game, agreed, ships are not balanced against eachother.
But are they supposed to be?
I doubt that.
But there is still balance in the game, this is made up of different types of ships used and careers used is also something that set's the balance, one way or another.
How you spend your skillpoint is 75% of what your ship will be capable of doing.
Cruisers are good ships, i dont fly them often, but i do, and that is another type of fun.
The experts on cruisers out there in the sto game universe knows this, they also know that most escorts are no threat to them.
So, cruisers are not useless.
Actually, my next ship will be a cruiser.... :-D
All players in both factions flying any ship choice can choose to use broken equipment of consoles or what is broken that they think gives them an edge in pvp.
The feds do it
The KDF do it.
Blaiming the use of any broken item ingame is not the fault of the BoP.
Your still offering just speculative whine based on your on opinions and not fact.
R.I.P
Hey Roach, if memory serves, most Feds back in the day hated PvPing against Klingons for mostly the following reasons:
De-cloaking alphas from BoPs
Cloaks on KDF ships in general
Carrier spam (in particular siphon drones and Orion interceptors)
BoPs even having a Battlecloak and Universal layout
C-store consoles (Leech, Theta, AA, etc)
Drain builds
The B'rel
And probably some other stuff I am missing.
With time and Romulans, almost all that stuff is not a KDF only thing anymore.
All Romulan ships have battle cloaks, almost every decent lower tier KDF console has been traded with the Feds. The new Tal shiar ships let Feds have another two cloaking ships (in-built cloaks at that). Carrier spam is equally bad on both sides with stuff like siphons on the KDF, and Yellowstones on the Fed. De-cloaking alphas can also be done with Romulans and the new Tal shiar ships.
Drain builds I will admit can still be really really annoying to deal with.
Universal stations are given out like candy anymore. Only BoPs have full universal layouts though, so it's something at least.
On the B'rel, that takes a particularly special strategy and thought to make into a good torp/mine boat. And if that guy is right in the one-crit bug being back, then that isn't the fault of the BoPs, it's a bug, and it's a bug anyone can use (like how everyone felt like using the EPTA bug). Besides, the B'rel lacks the tac console slots to make them hurt REALLY hard, compared to the T'varo (especially the fleet version).
True, very true. The KDF has long been then villian because of our tactics and toys.
It was a valid dislike but not an OP use on our part, unless said use was using known broken items.
As you state that is no longer the case as ALL can exploit near equally in STO at this time.
The person Im in disagreement with though is only calling the BoP OP, which it is not.
I can only surmise its due to dying to a BoP or group of BoPs, which is not a sign of OP.
This is complaint of hubris that all who fight a good BoP build feel after dying but it takes a good build proprrly used to achieve.
If the BoP was OP we would have teams of them sweeping the ques. Yet we do not.
R.I.P
If by back in the day you meant for more than a year following launch there was ONE huge reason PVP was hated. Especially by escort pilots. Mostly by escort pilots.
It was next to impossible for them to kill anything without an assist from a sci ship or a cruiser. If your bored take a few minutes and you can hammer out the math on it. It was next to impossible, and it is easy to prove that.
BOP's on the other hand could decloak and waste one, two or three Federation ships. Depending on how many happened to be there. Because almost ALL federation players shared a very bad habit. They sat still or moved very slowly to stay together, thus destroying their defense bonus. And for those ships that DIDN'T sit still, BOP's could have a nice tractor. Let me tell you right now, it wasn't really needed. Most guys really just didn't try to move like they needed to.
And this was all because the Acc/Def/Crit mechanic was poorly understood if at all by most players. This hasn't changed THAT much, but what has changed is that Acc has been added in generous amounts. This ended the dependencies that Escorts had while at the same time was a very hard blow against cruisers and science.
See at the same time we gave all ships the potential to gain Acc the only defense and shield balancing that was added was given to tactical.
Whoops. Small oversight.
The issue is that in a cruiser, the defense bonus is pretty much negated and there is no real point to moving. I assure you that even with the elusive trait, my cruiser still can get hit 99% of time.
Since escorts have the advantage of not being hit due to insane defense bonuses, doesn't it reason that cruisers should have much more hull and shield resistance then they currently do, something built into them like an innate 20% resistance to all weapons and kinetics?
Or better yet, have a passive which cancels out transphasic procs? To make them much more durable and competitive on the battlefield. I would love to hear any other ideas on improving cruiser pvp? Or tips on the best way to survive BoP and escort Alphas because nothing I do seems to work well EXCEPT RSP.
So instead of slagging me Klinks... how about some advice...
I have x2 Acc Fleet Weapons, the Tholian 10% beam accuracy Console and the Accurate trait and I still RARELY hit escorts... so please... impart your wisdom because I'm obviously doing something wrong here...
Seriously... enough people complain about X or Y or Z that there is obviously a problem, stop dancing the issue.
I will give you a stark example of how broken end game pvp in this game is. Pvp at any other level than 50. Go, roll a toon and queue up at say level 20. Rely on actual skill instead of minmax builds at endgame with OP combinations of crazy statted gear.
Ive done it, in fact I roll total face when I do it. Notsomuch at level 50 pvp, why? Because I havent completed my setup yet, im about 15 percent damage short since I am using blue XIs for tac consoles instead of purples, im using mk xi rep gear, not xii, i havent been able to afford the "super doffs" ... another disadvantage... a long term player has all sorts of extra buffs and stats I havent gotten yet. Those do add up. Doesnt mean I stop trying, and I do pretty well all things considered. I wonder how some of these matches ive been in would be if I was flying a gimped out JHAS with all the trimmings. I bet id stomp 90 percent of the so called "elite" in this game. I guess we will find out when i get there, huh? Til then, I guess I keep clawing my way.
I have never seen a game that relied so heavily on perfect setups to be competitive in pvp like this. You could be the best ******ned pilot in history and get roflstomped due to the gear gap.
That is the entire reason PvP in this game is so niche and has apparently reached life support stage. All you see are premade top geared players murdering casuals in every queue. You think those casuals ever come back? You wonder where your new pvpers are gonna come from?
The flaw is in the game itself, the gearing itself. A stock toon to a brand new level 50 player is about a quarter as powerful as a tricked out C-store or lockbox ship.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Something must be wrong with the game, the other players ships are stronger, the other players weapons are stronger, the other player is just OP...... One gets tired of hearing the same complaints over and over again when a whole PvP community sits ready to help, including an out of game training school.
None of that can be helpful. One must go to the threads and *****. Why? Becuase it cant be my fault. That would be just silly.
R.I.P