A lot of the stuff in Road to 2409 sounds more like the end of the Republic than the end of (either half of) the Roman Empire, oddly.
There's every indication that the Romulan Star Empire is based on the Republic of Rome more than the Roman Empire. Sela's the first actual Emperor/Empress in a long, long time - and seems to only manage that because some moron tripped over subspace and broke Hobus.
Do really want an episode that tells us about the intricacies of how the Republic is set up, how its leadership is elected etc.?
I mean we saw how...thrilling this stuff worked out in Episode 1.:rolleyes:
I'd be interested in at least one episode focusing on how the Romulan Republic government functions. The failure of one film in a different franchise to make political machinations remotely interesting does not mean that other writers are incapable of doing so, and it seems obvious that political machinations and Romulans go hand-in-hand.
For two (or three) examples, compare The Phantom Menace to Aaron Sorkin's The West Wing, as well as the U.K. and/or U.S. versions of House of Cards. Political dramas can be done well, and I'd be curious to see if Cryptic's writers are up to that particular challenge.
Well I'm glad I got that. I just don't think that sort of argument has any bearing in D'Tan's Republic.
What does "more did get on it" mean?
More philosophers weighed in on the topic, but Hobbes and Locke are usually the go-tos for it.
I don't buy it, personally, and given that this game seems to use the "religion" that Duane invented in the Rihannsu novels, D'Tan's philosophy wouldn't include the notion of a personal God Who created everything, and Whose existence might be implied by the existence of intelligence. (Christian monotheism was a given to many European philosophers back in the day.)
First of all. You really did miss the staff meeting. In the beginning of the New Romulan story plot you see Obisek talking to D'tan. He voices the opinions of the entire Reman and Romulans. If anyone is to lead us in this endeavor it is you. Just because you have a Republic, there is still a president who is voted in to the office. D'tan is the elected representative of both the Romulans and Remans. He is the guiding force behind the reunification of the Romulan and Reman people. No where does it say that he intends to keep the office for life.
Wait... are you saying that there is an inherent or universal sense of right and wrong in people, derived from god / the universe's creator? And are you further saying that D'Tan also believes this? And he believes it because intelligence or sentience is somehow a necessary result of god / the creator?
What possible benefits does it have for Romlans and Vulcans to be "unified"? While a "reconciliation" would be good and would promise peace and friendly relations in the future, actually unifying the two governments would be fraught with problems.
How many "reunificationists" are there in the US who want to unify with Britain? How many are there in the UK?
I think that the relationship that the US and UK have nowadays IS the kind of thing the "reunificationists" are going for. The US rebelled from the UK, went to war a couple times, hated everything they stood for, but now they're best friends forever.
Romulans don't wanna BE Vulcans --I was going to say "the idea of giving up your emotions is terrifying to them" but really it's terrifying for EVERYONE-- they want to bury the hatchet between them and the Vulcans.
I think that the relationship that the US and UK have nowadays IS the kind of thing the "reunificationists" are going for. The US rebelled from the UK, went to war a couple times, hated everything they stood for, but now they're best friends forever.
Romulans don't wanna BE Vulcans --I was going to say "the idea of giving up your emotions is terrifying to them" but really it's terrifying for EVERYONE-- they want to bury the hatchet between them and the Vulcans.
Yes as a whole we Brits are quite fond of our friends across the pond.
But yes I don't see the Romulan reunificationists wanting to give up emotions and become Vulcans, just developing a close alliance whilst maintaining seperate governments. While it would be interesting to see the Republic and Vulcans merging their governments with equal rights to both species I don't see it happening.
The point of Reunification is not to force Rihanh to accept Kolinahr. By the same token, the point is not to bring the Thaessu under the Raptor's Wings.
The point is balance. Rihanh have embraced emotion to the point of allowing passions to dominate, and to the detriment of reason. Thaessu have embraced reason to the detriment of emotion.
Aristoteles, one of the great thinkers of the Terrhasu, wrote of an ideal he called "the Golden Mean." This is the middle point between two extremes.
Both of our peoples have chosen extremes (and both have failed in their goals, for the Thaessu still have emotions, often betrayed by virtue of their arrogance and prejudices, and the Rihanh still have reason, perverted by allowing passion to dominate it -- reason has not atrophied in the Rihanh, nor has emotion atrophied in the Thaessu), and both must, eventually, return to the Golden Mean between these two extremes, a situation in which emotion informs reason, and reason mediates the excesses of passion. This is the hope of Reunification.
Rihanh are sometimes criticized for being "deceptive." The Thaessu claim to be incapable of lying, but history shows otherwise.
Emotion is never completely "purged" from the Thaessu, and they will admit that emotion runs deep in them.
Rihanh are not devoid of reason, for Rihan intrigues require rational planning.
Thaessu and Rihanh are the same people, genetically; only cultural differences separate the two. This is not to minimize the importance of those cultural differences; choices have been made which led to cultural divergence. Choice is part of freedom; freedom is essential. But choice is always possible, as long as freedom remains possible and without undue restriction; this means that both sides can still make the choice that both should have made long ago: to be, not anti-emotion nor anti-rationality, but to be as they are innately, with both a rational capability and an emotional capability, in equilibrium.
That all being said, the majority of the Thaessu are, for the moment, still too arrogant in their "Logic" to give due consideration to what they have lost by suppressing emotion. Rihanh are still divided even among themselves, by virtue of their warring passions.
As such, Reunification will not happen at any point in the near future, primarily due to this arrogance on the part of the Thaessu, but the passionate divisions and passion-motivated intrigues of the Rihanh also cannot be ignored in this consideration.
I am Rihan, like you (*). I speak as such. Speaking as a ri'Rihanha in this time of many crises and challenges, I will say that, when faced with the decision of alliance with one side or the other (and no option to simply be Rihan), I could not stomach the idea of allying with the Lloann'mhrahel, because that government is disingenuous in its claims to value and promote freedom. The Lloann'mhrahel is no less a colonial empire than the Klling'hann Nneikha, but they try to pretend otherwise, adopting the euphemistic designation "Federation." They criticize us for being "deceptive," and yet they are even more deceptive. As such, I have chosen alliance with the Klling'hann Nneikha; they are at least honest in naming themselves an empire, and our history with them is long. We have betrayed them in the past, but we have also worked closely with them in the past. We know them and understand their intrigues. We are not so dissimilar.
-- Gessatra ir'Virinat t'Prell
*(Or am I? See my siggy and remember that I am some sort of intelligence agent.)
But as for the original topic of this thread, there have already been several replies explaining what a Republic is in theory (although I expect Plato would take issue with modern perspectives on the meaning of Republic), explaining that the use of the name "Republic" in practice may or may not have aught to do with the theory, that Republics have had (and some still have) dictators, that Senate elections have been mentioned in the storyline, that Senatorial robes exist in-game, that Obisek is also part of the government (in terms of running Reman military affairs, at least), etc. I'm also pretty sure I saw something about my character being named an "Honorary Senator" at some point in the storyline.
A Senate is a legislative body, so if there's a Senate, it strongly suggests the idea that D'Tan is not an autocrat running the whole show. We don't know exactly how the government of the New Romulan Republic is set up, and while it might be interesting to some (myself included), I don't think we need an entire episode dedicated to explaining the intricacies of government workings. A few more tidbits tossed into the storyline here and there would fit nicely without diverting too much attention or boring those with no interest in such matters. And players could always create foundry missions giving their own ideas of how it works.
Many democratic countries will call off elections when in a state of war. The Romulan Republic is in a state of war with the Romulan Star Empire. Like in Star Wars when Palpatine was given supreme power to fight the Confederacy, except without the whole Sith Lord thing.
Alternatively: the Republic hasn't been around for long. D'tan is probably only halfway through his term or something.
How cool would it be if not only could you buy land in the federation planets but also build on to them? Imagine being able to build your own homes, city, or even country. I think it would be cool to have a city in the federation that produces goods like materials used for space ship productions and such. I think it would add into the interactions of the entire game and maybe with the multiplayer universe. Remember in the STNG episode "Family" when Picard was offered a new position on earth? Well I think it would be cool to add to that. For example you buy a nice land on Mars for example. And build yourself state of the art shield producers. And you use your ship crew to help build on that.
Or even better it would be nice if you had like specific architect designs developed by actual players that can buy and sell from each other. And like different construct different materials required to build certain things. How cool would that be? Imagine doing a long mission, then going to your house to relax.
Imagine how you would be defending your planet that you worked so hard to build. It would defiantly in my opinion add flavor to the game.
How cool would it be if not only could you buy land in the federation planets but also build on to them? Imagine being able to build your own homes, city, or even country. I think it would be cool to have a city in the federation that produces goods like materials used for space ship productions and such. I think it would add into the interactions of the entire game and maybe with the multiplayer universe. Remember in the STNG episode "Family" when Picard was offered a new position on earth? Well I think it would be cool to add to that. For example you buy a nice land on Mars for example. And build yourself state of the art shield producers. And you use your ship crew to help build on that.
Or even better it would be nice if you had like specific architect designs developed by actual players that can buy and sell from each other. And like different construct different materials required to build certain things. How cool would that be? Imagine doing a long mission, then going to your house to relax.
Imagine how you would be defending your planet that you worked so hard to build. It would defiantly in my opinion add flavor to the game.
The game you want is called Birth of the Federation. Too bad it came out in 1990.
Cheers from Antonio Valerio Cortez III, Half-Celestial Archduke of the Free Marches Confederacy.
Many democratic countries will call off elections when in a state of war. The Romulan Republic is in a state of war with the Romulan Star Empire. Like in Star Wars when Palpatine was given supreme power to fight the Confederacy, except without the whole Sith Lord thing.
Alternatively: the Republic hasn't been around for long. D'tan is probably only halfway through his term or something.
Nothing in the game indicates that D'Tan was not legally elected as a Proconsul or Romulan President.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
But I do think there should be a lake on new romulus and as we approach an NPC should say
"oh thats Admiral (insert name ) the one this lake is named after"
And another npc (ideally a smaller younger one ) says "Really mother? do you think I could get an autograph"
Honestly i dont see how the OP is getting dictator out of D'tan. Nothing shown in the game thus far makes him out to be a dictator but a leader of a movement began by Spock who taught D'tan. Now that Romulas is gone and the Romulan people were scattered D'tan has changed that movement to bringing Romulans to a new world as part of the ultimute goal of reunification.
But really theres not a whole lot about his position known or how he came of that position.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Elections are not called upon just because the player has joined the faction. It would put far too much strain on the administration if a new election was held every time a new T'liss Warbird joined the cause. The Romulan character obviously joined after an election was held by the Republic, and the story happens throughout D'Tan's term as Proconsul. I very much doubt the Republic is going to have elections ever week. It's going to be something like four or six years, like the United States and Russia respectively.
On the subject of the unification movement; not all of the Republic's citizens are going to be part of the unification movement. Just because the guy in power is a unificationist, that does not mean every Republic Romulan is. That would be like saying that every American is a Democrat, every Brit is a Conservative, every Brazilian is centre-left, every Russian is a conservative statist, every Swede is a moderate, et cetera. There is going to be Romulans and Romulan political groups in the Republic opposed to unification with the Vulcans. Just stand outside the embassy on New Romulus and you can here how much the people are opposed to joining the Federation.
Doesn't he come back during the KDF episodes though? It's been a while since I did them, but I'm fairly certain he made a comeback in that arc where you fight Klingon Satan (since he is Klingon Jesus).
D'tan wields supreme executive power because some watery tart threw a sword at him.
Or, uh, do I heard.
Ahhh...
That explains why he doesn't have s**t all over him...
Even with all the building they are doing... :P
Sir Robin the Brave
Commander, RRW Chicken Shield...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Even if players missed off screen elections, which is plausible, there's also the fact that many newly formed democratic governments did not elect their first leaders and instead appointed them the first time around and got things going for their reelection, and many governments that transitioned into democracy still had pretty much no choice in their first election.
Take the US: Under the Continental Congress and the Articles of Confederation, a number of executive leaders were appointed by a legislature which itself was mostly unelected, and after the Constitution finally went into effect and the actual procedures of election were decided, its first proper election was little more than a technicality on George Washington's unanimous appointment - most states didn't even bother trying to have public votes, the states that did only managed to get it done in small parts of the state, and the electors from both parties were all just planning to vote for the same guy anyway.
The vote was probably held a year ago (which in game time means before launch even), and the choices were probably D'tan and some guy who was technically running against D'tan but was politically indistinguishable and told people they should vote for D'tan instead. As players are effectively new immigrants, they'll have to wait for the next election, maybe in 3 or 5 years or however long the terms run. Which in game time will be lolnever.
Doesn't he come back during the KDF episodes though? It's been a while since I did them, but I'm fairly certain he made a comeback in that arc where you fight Klingon Satan (since he is Klingon Jesus).
He does. The mission actually contradicts the Path to 2409 as far as the date of him leaving goes.
Comments
There's every indication that the Romulan Star Empire is based on the Republic of Rome more than the Roman Empire. Sela's the first actual Emperor/Empress in a long, long time - and seems to only manage that because some moron tripped over subspace and broke Hobus.
For two (or three) examples, compare The Phantom Menace to Aaron Sorkin's The West Wing, as well as the U.K. and/or U.S. versions of House of Cards. Political dramas can be done well, and I'd be curious to see if Cryptic's writers are up to that particular challenge.
QFT. The beatings will continue until morale improves!
Well I'm glad I got that. I just don't think that sort of argument has any bearing in D'Tan's Republic.
What does "more did get on it" mean?
I don't buy it, personally, and given that this game seems to use the "religion" that Duane invented in the Rihannsu novels, D'Tan's philosophy wouldn't include the notion of a personal God Who created everything, and Whose existence might be implied by the existence of intelligence. (Christian monotheism was a given to many European philosophers back in the day.)
You got it, sister.
I think that the relationship that the US and UK have nowadays IS the kind of thing the "reunificationists" are going for. The US rebelled from the UK, went to war a couple times, hated everything they stood for, but now they're best friends forever.
Romulans don't wanna BE Vulcans --I was going to say "the idea of giving up your emotions is terrifying to them" but really it's terrifying for EVERYONE-- they want to bury the hatchet between them and the Vulcans.
Yes as a whole we Brits are quite fond of our friends across the pond.
But yes I don't see the Romulan reunificationists wanting to give up emotions and become Vulcans, just developing a close alliance whilst maintaining seperate governments. While it would be interesting to see the Republic and Vulcans merging their governments with equal rights to both species I don't see it happening.
But as for the original topic of this thread, there have already been several replies explaining what a Republic is in theory (although I expect Plato would take issue with modern perspectives on the meaning of Republic), explaining that the use of the name "Republic" in practice may or may not have aught to do with the theory, that Republics have had (and some still have) dictators, that Senate elections have been mentioned in the storyline, that Senatorial robes exist in-game, that Obisek is also part of the government (in terms of running Reman military affairs, at least), etc. I'm also pretty sure I saw something about my character being named an "Honorary Senator" at some point in the storyline.
A Senate is a legislative body, so if there's a Senate, it strongly suggests the idea that D'Tan is not an autocrat running the whole show. We don't know exactly how the government of the New Romulan Republic is set up, and while it might be interesting to some (myself included), I don't think we need an entire episode dedicated to explaining the intricacies of government workings. A few more tidbits tossed into the storyline here and there would fit nicely without diverting too much attention or boring those with no interest in such matters. And players could always create foundry missions giving their own ideas of how it works.
Alternatively: the Republic hasn't been around for long. D'tan is probably only halfway through his term or something.
Or even better it would be nice if you had like specific architect designs developed by actual players that can buy and sell from each other. And like different construct different materials required to build certain things. How cool would that be? Imagine doing a long mission, then going to your house to relax.
Imagine how you would be defending your planet that you worked so hard to build. It would defiantly in my opinion add flavor to the game.
The game you want is called Birth of the Federation. Too bad it came out in 1990.
Nothing in the game indicates that D'Tan was not legally elected as a Proconsul or Romulan President.
Prove he is unelected. considering we did not see them build a giant city on new romulus, im pretty sure we might have missed an election too.
and no he is not a vulcan. he was a romulan child in reunification.
none of them got a vote ergo there was no valid vote
also he took a planet WE found without so much as naming a lake after us
Not acceptable
his vulcan status is due to being Spocks son
if he were Romulan he would not be such a DRIP
i can never tell with you, are you joking or being serious?
But I do think there should be a lake on new romulus and as we approach an NPC should say
"oh thats Admiral (insert name ) the one this lake is named after"
And another npc (ideally a smaller younger one ) says "Really mother? do you think I could get an autograph"
But really theres not a whole lot about his position known or how he came of that position.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
On the subject of the unification movement; not all of the Republic's citizens are going to be part of the unification movement. Just because the guy in power is a unificationist, that does not mean every Republic Romulan is. That would be like saying that every American is a Democrat, every Brit is a Conservative, every Brazilian is centre-left, every Russian is a conservative statist, every Swede is a moderate, et cetera. There is going to be Romulans and Romulan political groups in the Republic opposed to unification with the Vulcans. Just stand outside the embassy on New Romulus and you can here how much the people are opposed to joining the Federation.
Doesn't he come back during the KDF episodes though? It's been a while since I did them, but I'm fairly certain he made a comeback in that arc where you fight Klingon Satan (since he is Klingon Jesus).
Or, uh, do I heard.
Ahhh...
That explains why he doesn't have s**t all over him...
Even with all the building they are doing... :P
Sir Robin the Brave
Commander, RRW Chicken Shield...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Building? It's only a model.
Take the US: Under the Continental Congress and the Articles of Confederation, a number of executive leaders were appointed by a legislature which itself was mostly unelected, and after the Constitution finally went into effect and the actual procedures of election were decided, its first proper election was little more than a technicality on George Washington's unanimous appointment - most states didn't even bother trying to have public votes, the states that did only managed to get it done in small parts of the state, and the electors from both parties were all just planning to vote for the same guy anyway.
The vote was probably held a year ago (which in game time means before launch even), and the choices were probably D'tan and some guy who was technically running against D'tan but was politically indistinguishable and told people they should vote for D'tan instead. As players are effectively new immigrants, they'll have to wait for the next election, maybe in 3 or 5 years or however long the terms run. Which in game time will be lolnever.
He does. The mission actually contradicts the Path to 2409 as far as the date of him leaving goes.