test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
The Reputation shaped Elephant in the room.
centersolace
Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
I only recently came back to this game due to a bug preventing the game from installing, and in that short period of time, I've discovered I've been avoiding the Tholian stuff. But that's not right I tell myself, I should be looking forward to the new stuff, not dreading it. So why am I not looking forward to Cryptics hard work?
The answer is simple really. The downside of a Reputation like system has finally reared its ugly head, and I think it's time we address the Elephants in the room, and how to fix them.
1. At it's essence, it's just a mechanic made to waste time.
I used to have quite a few friends who would play this game once, maybe twice a week. Half of them now log in every day. The other half? They've quit. And it's easy to see why. You don't progress very much logging in for an hour or two once a week. Seeing that little bar hardly move every time you play is rather disheartening, and that's not something you want to do when your audience comes to you for an escape.
2. It's repetition incarnate.
Kind of tying in with #1, sure, you've increased your playtime, but for what? The same handful of missions over and over again? This is bad for a multitude of reasons, but one of the ones that tends to slip through the cracks is the fact that once you finish a given reputation, what reason do you have to go back to them? Those of you who have reached level 5, and gotten all the endgame gear you wanted, I ask you, have you gone back and done a single STF?
I sure haven't.
3. It makes it hard to take a break..... .......and it makes it even harder to come back.
I really wonder what it's like for returning players who have been gone for a year or more. In that time we've received both Starbases, and three (and a half, if you include the CE stuff) reputation tracts. Sure, it's a lot of new content, but it's also a lot of new content. It's easy to see how so much of that stuff can really turn off a player and scare them off again. I know the MMO player stereotype is the chained to the computer "just one more level" type nerd, but the reality is, when most people are given the choice between staying a slave to a game, or giving up on it, most will do the latter, even if it means loosing a ton of work they've put in.
I know people who have walked away from corporations in EVE worth thousands of real world money, simply because they didn't want to log in every day. Same with epic level players in WoW or even Everquest back in the day.
Now, I'm not saying we should get rid of reputation. That would be a waste. But we have to accept that the short term benefits have run their course, and from here on out, we are only going to see the downsides. Simply put, Reputation is bad for longevity.
But what can we do about it? Well there are several things:
1. Better integration of the foundry.
One of the major problems with Reputation is that their's very few ways to earn it. There is not a single reputation tract with more than 15 maps to earn it on. That's... not good. If there was 50+ or so, then there would be less room to complain, however Cryptic cannot churn out maps like that. There's no way. The community can however. If there was a way you could implement community made maps into the reputation then that would solve a lot of problems, it does however raise new ones, but that's a topic for another thread.
2. Territory Control.
Once again, this saves the day. The thing about territory control, is that a lot of people use it in the context of PvP. While that should indeed be a part of this game, PvP alone isn't going to cut it. Not for a game like this.
What you would have to do is include various NPC factions that can take over and control planets. They could range from the Tholians, to the Borg, to the Elachi, and battling each one could contribute to their various Reputation tracts.
3. Ship interiors!
Okay, okay, hear me out. Your captain and ship are always in very different areas, and never really interact with each other. On the other hand, quite a few episodes of Star Trek took place entirely on board the ships, and many more occurred mostly or at least half while on board the ship. The great thing about ship interiors is that while it would be difficult, you would only need to create them once, and you could have things involving every single reputation tract on board them.
4. Account bound reputation.
Simply put, any all characters on a given account can contribute to the same reputation pot, and gain all the benefits as well. This might cause a lot of problems, but it is worth considering. A lot of players I know have 15 -20 or even 30 characters, and reputation is a good argument for not touching them as well as not making any more. I don't think that's a good thing. Having account bound reputation would let players experiment, and even give them an excuse to try out new characters, or even new factions.
5. One mark to rule them all.
Basically you earn one type of reputation marks: reputation marks. Doing any and all reputation missions lets you contribute to any and all reputation types. It makes things simple, and it allows nothing to be outdated. That being said, this suggestion is the one open to the most abuse, and is most likely the one to be shied away from because of that. It could still work, but it might require more balancing than cryptic may want to do.
I know I can sound harsh sometimes, but I really do like this game, and I want it to be around for a long time. Reputation is not the key to longevity, and I really do think there needs to be some changes to how it works, and they need to happen soon.
The answer is simple really. The downside of a Reputation like system has finally reared its ugly head, and I think it's time we address the Elephants in the room, and how to fix them.
1. At it's essence, it's just a mechanic made to waste time.
I used to have quite a few friends who would play this game once, maybe twice a week. Half of them now log in every day. The other half? They've quit. And it's easy to see why. You don't progress very much logging in for an hour or two once a week. Seeing that little bar hardly move every time you play is rather disheartening, and that's not something you want to do when your audience comes to you for an escape.
2. It's repetition incarnate.
Kind of tying in with #1, sure, you've increased your playtime, but for what? The same handful of missions over and over again? This is bad for a multitude of reasons, but one of the ones that tends to slip through the cracks is the fact that once you finish a given reputation, what reason do you have to go back to them? Those of you who have reached level 5, and gotten all the endgame gear you wanted, I ask you, have you gone back and done a single STF?
I sure haven't.
3. It makes it hard to take a break..... .......and it makes it even harder to come back.
I really wonder what it's like for returning players who have been gone for a year or more. In that time we've received both Starbases, and three (and a half, if you include the CE stuff) reputation tracts. Sure, it's a lot of new content, but it's also a lot of new content. It's easy to see how so much of that stuff can really turn off a player and scare them off again. I know the MMO player stereotype is the chained to the computer "just one more level" type nerd, but the reality is, when most people are given the choice between staying a slave to a game, or giving up on it, most will do the latter, even if it means loosing a ton of work they've put in.
I know people who have walked away from corporations in EVE worth thousands of real world money, simply because they didn't want to log in every day. Same with epic level players in WoW or even Everquest back in the day.
Now, I'm not saying we should get rid of reputation. That would be a waste. But we have to accept that the short term benefits have run their course, and from here on out, we are only going to see the downsides. Simply put, Reputation is bad for longevity.
But what can we do about it? Well there are several things:
1. Better integration of the foundry.
One of the major problems with Reputation is that their's very few ways to earn it. There is not a single reputation tract with more than 15 maps to earn it on. That's... not good. If there was 50+ or so, then there would be less room to complain, however Cryptic cannot churn out maps like that. There's no way. The community can however. If there was a way you could implement community made maps into the reputation then that would solve a lot of problems, it does however raise new ones, but that's a topic for another thread.
2. Territory Control.
Once again, this saves the day. The thing about territory control, is that a lot of people use it in the context of PvP. While that should indeed be a part of this game, PvP alone isn't going to cut it. Not for a game like this.
What you would have to do is include various NPC factions that can take over and control planets. They could range from the Tholians, to the Borg, to the Elachi, and battling each one could contribute to their various Reputation tracts.
3. Ship interiors!
Okay, okay, hear me out. Your captain and ship are always in very different areas, and never really interact with each other. On the other hand, quite a few episodes of Star Trek took place entirely on board the ships, and many more occurred mostly or at least half while on board the ship. The great thing about ship interiors is that while it would be difficult, you would only need to create them once, and you could have things involving every single reputation tract on board them.
4. Account bound reputation.
Simply put, any all characters on a given account can contribute to the same reputation pot, and gain all the benefits as well. This might cause a lot of problems, but it is worth considering. A lot of players I know have 15 -20 or even 30 characters, and reputation is a good argument for not touching them as well as not making any more. I don't think that's a good thing. Having account bound reputation would let players experiment, and even give them an excuse to try out new characters, or even new factions.
5. One mark to rule them all.
Basically you earn one type of reputation marks: reputation marks. Doing any and all reputation missions lets you contribute to any and all reputation types. It makes things simple, and it allows nothing to be outdated. That being said, this suggestion is the one open to the most abuse, and is most likely the one to be shied away from because of that. It could still work, but it might require more balancing than cryptic may want to do.
I know I can sound harsh sometimes, but I really do like this game, and I want it to be around for a long time. Reputation is not the key to longevity, and I really do think there needs to be some changes to how it works, and they need to happen soon.
Post edited by centersolace on
0
Comments
Though others may argue that it would feel odd fighting Borg in STFs to get gear from New Romulus.....
Formerly Traven158
As for the "territory control", I've mentioned that in another thread. It can be (should be) PVE (there could be a PVP parallel too) and I think it could/would add a greater strategic depth to the game.
I don't think it's that odd. If what you gain is "prestige", meaning, you are viewed as an important key player on your faction and the galaxy as a whole, other "enterprises" would be willing to allow you access to their items.
Mine Trap Supporter
But thats me.Thanks for your post .
That was actually what Dilitium was supposed to be in the first place. They scrapped almost all the old currency types and badges in favor of just Dilithium. They said it was specifically to simplify things.
They sure threw that out the window afterwards didn't they?
Source:
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?name=sto-node-2638
Other Notes
With the introduction of the Dilithium economy this week, we have phased out Merit and Honor as currencies. Everywhere players used to be able to spend these currencies has been converted to either Dilithium or Energy Credits. We have similarly phased out the use of Emblems as a form of currency.
With the Romulan Reputation, it was good that it sort of kept you anxious for the next storyline clip. The bad points is with Omega marks, like said above, people just quit. The only people who continue are mainly doing it for the accolades or working on extra STF sets. Really in the past few months the STF channels have nearly died completely, which leaves us who yet to finish grinding the 300 STF accolades (argh) pretty much having to resort to..........PUGs.
Nukara, well that seems like they just threw in some to-do work for the Federation players so they have something to do for LoR. But the thing is the Nukara Marks themselves are just minimal compared to the other two, and people are just burnt out on Nukara. And people are growing disillusioned with the Tholian grind since it's painful for those with multiple characters.
I myself have literally no free time in STO anymore, I really don't have any time to work on Fleet Credits because of the Tholian Grind on 6 characters. And at this point there are 3 weeks remaining til I hit Tier 5. So I'm already feeling "the burn" (burnout).
And like said above, repeating the same things over and over and over again, it gets to you.
# 4) Account Bound Reputations:
I pretty much was the first group of people to suggest this, that the more characters you have, the more work you have to do. Even if you held off doing it later, repeating that grind again is just not interesting.
So it would be nice if they could make Reputation Account-wide or in a system that reduces the work load, like one or two characters of a faction doing the main grind. Also, be nice if accolades themselves could be account-wide as well, so we don't have to go play NWS on every toon.
5) 1-Mark to rule them all? People are talking and given that we are now running into multiple currencies again, yes this would be a nice thing. Would Cryptic do it? Perhaps a year or two down the road as the reputation system falls into the shadows and allowing new characters to get geared up faster.
Honestly, right now I would be happy to convert my 5000 Romulan marks for Tholian Reputation. Too bad that we couldn't turn in more old Nukara set pieces.
Seriously. In a day I can get enough Omega marks to rip through two tiers MINIMUM.
Romulan, Nukara... ugh.
1,526 is all it takes for tiers 0 - 5 .... if you do 6 during the double rep points event... you have have it done in 6 hours... then you have 35 days doing sod all.
I rarely play now fore the same reasons everyone has listed here. The Reputation grind it just that, a grind. Same with Dilithium and EC. I got burned out on STO about two months ago after returning for F2P after an absence of over a year. And once I stopped again it is hard for me to get back into it again as you all have noted.
Cryptic needs to focus on fixing the bugs and the infrastructure like the mail system and exchange.
I have just one alt, KDF side. He hit 50 two days ago. Right now, he has 10 omega rep, and a pair of 20 hour cooldowns (that's just TRIBBLE, by the way) running.
I don't log in daily, and because I don't, it often takes me 3, sometimes 4 days just to do one project, because of the 20 hour timer.
At this rate, I'll be grinding out this rep for the rest of eternity.
It's a bad system.
Those who were around in the first few months of STO might remember for a brief time, Anti-Protons original effect was a shield bleed through. It was so devastating in PvP that within a few weeks, the Dev Team was forced to get change it and they turned it into the current Crit trait. (I think the bleedthrough comment is still readable on Space Anti-Proton weaponry).
I literally couldn't do anything else in-game.
So, I'm waiting for Cryptic to make the Rep system unlocks ACCOUNT WIDE.
With all the sneaky nerfs they do, they can do this one positive thing.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
I dunno... If HISTORY is to be consulted then they would "Claim" to go with that but then split it into even MORE types of Marks.
I mean consider... We used to have various Currencies. Emblems, EC, GPL, Grade Marks, Encrypted Data Chips, and Salvage of various sorts... Now what do we have?
EC, GPL, Dilithium, Fleet Marks, Fleet Credits, Omega Marks, Romulan Marks, Nekura Marks, Expertise (You use it in various things), Borg Neural Processors, Lobi Crystals, and Commodities.
Soo... Yeah... I think they sort of failed... That is also not counting Provisions, Ship Modules, and Master Keys which are sort of currencies of their own.
This wouldn't help someone like myself, I'd still be way behind, but at least then I'd be moving it forward no matter which character I was on.
I also completely agree with getting rep marks from foundry missions and not 1 or 2 per mission either it has to easily be at least 10 for the easier ones or time based like dilithium acquisition is handled atm.
I too am tired of the delay. The worst one really isnt in the reputation system it's in the doff missions.
The amount of resources Doff missions take without giving a good return on doffs or resources as rewards is horrendous. Just look at the tiny bit of dilithium even for missions involving dilithium mining in the Doff system right now? we're supposed to believe that we'd actually help people blow up a moon to get 50 dilithium?
The last run on all of the reps really should not take yet another 50k of comm to finish. It's an insult really.
Systems like this were used in Sub only games for years until the game devs finally learned from their mistakes, this isn't a sub only game you can't get away with it like you can with the real elephant in the room (WoW) and expect people to just go along with it without saying anything about it.
There are no 'epic' level toons in sto.
We all hit 50 relatively quickly and all that is left to grind is EC Dil and Reputation, perhaps the starbase grind.
Past that, there is no difference between a beta vet and a 3 month vet.
There couldn't possibly be. aside from ingame wealth.
'n even then, visa mastercard is always a valid shortcut.
The rep system may be the start of an avenue towards that end.
It would make sense in the context of 'reputation'
What if tomorrow we logged in and there were 10 more reputation grinds.
What if it was entirely IMPOSSIBLE to grind your multiple toons in all of them in any "reasonable" amount of time.
What if you were FORCED to choose. In so doing, customizing your character to something that is more unique in sto
This is the elephant in the room, not just one more grind, many more grinds.
There may be a time when we're forced to realize that our different characters may NOT be able to "Max Out" in every available area.
This to me, seems like a good thing.
Our 'main' would actually become our 'main' again.
oh, and DOFF Missions for rep marks would be freaking awesome.
When you have multiple characters there isn't enough time in a week to work on all these reputation systems , earn EC to buy the items needed for the rep systems , earn the various I think 5 types of marks now, the endless the grind sucks the fun out of game.
Then you also get like on my main character the Fleet base totally stall for 2 months as no one has the time and energy to work on it when they have to work on there own endless grind. This then makes fleet leaders start bringing in penalties like "don't log on often and your out of the fleet".
This is a game a REAL LIFE and only play when they aren't busy with things like studying, working or helping/caring for disabled people.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind this if it wasn't for one thing. Right now, the rep systems are not competitive, they are complementary. If you choose to only do one, then you are loosing out in other areas.
As an example of what I am talking about, I'll refer to the skill training system in EvE Online (mostly because it fits and I know it). In EvE Online, there are TONS of skills, and I think the last time someone calculated it, they said it would take about 15 years to max everything out (years as its a time based system, not an action based exp system like in STO). And they keep adding skills. However, this works for EvE since you don't need to be maxed out in skills to be competitive, you just need to be maxed out in a specific area, which is much easier to get. So, you can spec out into being a great frigate pilot, or a great battleship pilot reletively easily and quickly.
I wouldn't mind if the reputation systems were the same, where say one was the Escort reputation, one was the cruiser reputation, etc. That way, if you fly escorts, you only need to do one, and then if you later decide to go into cruisers, you can do that, but as an escort pilot, you are not losing out if you don't do the cruiser rep. But that's not the way the rep system is set up now. Now, all reps are more or less equally useful for any character no matter what they do. That's the problem with the system right now, and what needs to be fixed, if not now, then with any future reputations.
Nouveau riche LTS member
Contrary to design intentions, I've been playing way less time than before (barring Romulan launch spike, b/c of really nice story content). Previously, I progressed roughly evenly across 8 characters, spending some time on whichever I felt like, with one of them slightly ahead of the others.
Now? I've completed T5 Romulan and Omega on 1 (mainly pvp-oriented) character and decided not to bother on any of the others, or on any new characters, really. Even for that one character I dread the Nukara rep, because it's just going to be slow going, and time-gated, at that. Might not do it, and stick to my current guns&gear.
Ironically, with all the new marks and stuff being added to guide our playtime, I've mostly been gathering dilithium and EC's, finding that I can get roughly equal stuff to any of the rep stuff if I just throw enough credits at it. Effectively, the rep systems feel like pure gear-unlocks, mostly, for gear I've decided will only contribute very little to my overall effectiveness; therefore, I will just do whatever I like and go from there. Lately, whatever I like has been divided between Romulan story and other games
There is a misperception among game developers that if they are not the cult controlling one's life then they have failed to provide a quality product. Simply put, they believe their game should be the next best improvement on cocaine so that you can have your life ruined by addiction for the virtual whatever at the end of the mindless mashing grind-fest. Is BORG gear appropriate to the concept of my BORG characters? Yes. Is Romulan gear appropriate to the concept of my Romulan, and even one of my Federation characters? Yes. Do I foresee ever owning any of it since the implementation of the Reputation systems. No, I do not. Nor do I see how any adult with a job, children to take care of, yards to maintain, vehicles to keep up, finances to manage, and spouses with which to spend time should expect to obtain these goals either - at least not without doing enough stimulants to be unhealthy. And this assumes they do not play any other PWI games, such as Neverwinter.
Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek has always been a world where individual expression and personal development were guaranteed because there was no law of the minimum. Poverty had been eliminated. But what we see in STO is the reintroduction of a poverty of the mean for no real reason. The rewards being denied through extreme grind cost nothing and do not contribute or fail to contribute to the bottom line of either Cryptic or Perfect World in anyway. The skins are not needed to be successful playing the game. So the question must be asked: Why do the developers feel they must spend so many hours controlling our lives for nothing?
I have a few suggestions for correcting this injustice without having to remove the reputation system:
Of course, if these things aren't corrected, I always have the option of going to other games, and seeing how many of my friends end up feeling the same way ...
I agree. I made this thread because I am in this exact same position myself. I don't even want to make a romulan, because I know I will never get anything good for her. Same with my Orion.
I miss this game, I really do want to play. But the only things worth doing are things I've done a thousand times before.
We need a way to shorten the 50 day grind for alts.
Cryptic, please look at TOR what they did with the legacy system, or
- change the items we get from the reputation system to an "bind on account" box [unwrapped:bind on aquire
- unlock boxes with marks for every completed reputation like... 5x250 mark boxes which can be claimed by any char on that account .
Now if you could start accumulating Reputation around level 30-40 on the other hand, you could be making progress while you're doing all of the things you'd be doing to get to level 50.
By the time you get to level 50, you ought to have made some progress in every Reputation and made Tier 1-2 in at least one of them.
You still wouldn't be able to max out everything, except over a very long period of time, but you'd be more motivated to do it.
Another issue with Reputation is that it seems to be geared more toward veteran players who have accumulated millions of EC's. Trying to gather all of the non-Mark requirements for each project is not only time-consuming but expensive. It also helps if you have one or more "mules" to make it easier to collect them.
And one other issue I've noted with projects in general is that they are "bursty" xp... rather than being able to regularly complete small projects that give a little xp each time, you have to complete these larger projects that take more time and give out a "burst" of xp.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Reputation is NOT endgame content. It is a progression system with NO real game differences than the standard 1 to 50 level progression.
'Endgame' is something that takes a loooong time to complete, or can never truly be completed. Farming dilithium via eSTFs is endgame. DOFFing for profit is endgame. PvP can be considered endgame. Grinding out a reputation to get gear that is only useful for getting more marks from that reputation which are nearly useless once you are done with the reputation is a progression system, not endgame. Omega via eSTFs is the only exception because of the high purple rock rewards gained from it. So one last time.
Reputation is NOT endgame content. It is a progression system with NO real game differences than the standard 1 to 50 level progression. Other than a massive lack of variety.
And I say to myself, "Well, back to work in STO."
Wait, did I just say "back to work" in a game? Yes. The reputations are such a bore. Since STFs pay out so much I got Omega quickly. And I started Romulan but just quit at T3 or so. I refused to grind bunnies in the slums and do Beta Thoridor five times a day every day. A couple months ago I ended up getting it to T5 (for the record, I did grind Beta Thoridor five times a day every day, but I still to this day have only grinded (ground?) bunnies five times. ever). And theeeeen.... Obscene amounts of marks and dilithium to actually get the gear. Omega rep, I did that for the STF sets and stuff. Romulan, I did that to get Elite Scorpions for my carrier. Nukara, heck I don't know why I am grinding this. I might just give it up after T4. I have no alts that I actually do anything with but occasionally farm stuff.
The grind, oh please, make it stop. Yes, give us account bound reputation. Give us one mark, the Reputation Mark.
I really want to work on my Romulan but knowing the months and months it took me to just get my Omega rep to T5 is a bit daunting, and its the only way i can get the MACO ship sets.
As for the one mark, i think thats a great idea and im all for it, if i may add, when you hit T5 of each rep, like the Omega you can trade in marks for Dil, but for each rep.. trade the marks for different things... For example;
Omega = Dil
Romulan = Fleet marks
Nukara = GPL
Thats just a quick of the head example. Worth a thought though.. And it would make me want to do the STFs as they would have a goal/reason