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ZEN stolen, no support reply
etaniran
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Hello Cryptic,
On May 13, my account was TRIBBLE. My STO characters were deleted. My dilithium, my ZEN, my energy credits and even my Neverwinter astral diamonds were stolen.
I filed a ticket the same day. It took you a week to restore my characters... and close the ticket. Set it to 'Resolved'.
Another week and multiple tickets later, my ZEN and other currencies are still missing, without a single word from your support except automated replies and nonsensical, buggy support site error messages.
And frankly, I'm getting tired of it. ZEN, Dilithium and astral diamonds have a _direct_ monetary RL equivalent. I want either my ingame currencies back, or I want an equivalent RL cash refund.
The latest ticket in question is 130522-002901.
I'll keep posting until this gets resolved. I'll leave it up to you what sort of advertisement your game needs.
Etani
On May 13, my account was TRIBBLE. My STO characters were deleted. My dilithium, my ZEN, my energy credits and even my Neverwinter astral diamonds were stolen.
I filed a ticket the same day. It took you a week to restore my characters... and close the ticket. Set it to 'Resolved'.
Another week and multiple tickets later, my ZEN and other currencies are still missing, without a single word from your support except automated replies and nonsensical, buggy support site error messages.
And frankly, I'm getting tired of it. ZEN, Dilithium and astral diamonds have a _direct_ monetary RL equivalent. I want either my ingame currencies back, or I want an equivalent RL cash refund.
The latest ticket in question is 130522-002901.
I'll keep posting until this gets resolved. I'll leave it up to you what sort of advertisement your game needs.
Etani
Post edited by etaniran on
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Comments
I doubt very much you will get anything.
He can. . .
I but I think it's down to him to provide evidence to prove that he
A, paid for it directly with real money
B, had said amounts in his bank within game
And
C, prove it was there at time of the theft
But I would not really expect much to come of it as unless he reported it as a crime I'm kinda sure that cryptic are not legally bound to replace it as his account could have been TRIBBLE from so many ways and not directly from lack of security on cryptics end.
And they don't exactly have a choice about replacement. We are talking about RL money. And since they can trace back precisely how ZEN and Dilithium has been spent - feth, its even visible in my own log - and who was logged into my account at that time, faking it is pretty tough to do.
Not to mention the fact that I wasn't an isolated case.
Let me put it this way.
Account Guard doesn't work. You can change your email without triggering it. Thus, you can circumvent it.I was able to do the exact same thing to change my email back again. From a cellphone that never accessed anything Cryptic/PWE related. Without triggering Account Guard.
Yes, it was a complete security failure at Cryptic.
First it would have to be proved that you didn't give this person access to your account (either accidentally or on purpose) and then prove they didnt have permission to do what they did.
For all cryptic/law enforcment knows this is a person you gave access to and then fell out with.
They wont touch it with a barge pole, and if you think they dont have any choice in refunding you, I think you are in for a very long (and disappointing) wait.
and happy to see wow cares more for there players then cryptic because i got hack several times in wow and every thing took and deleted and always got every thing and i mean every thing back
system Lord Baal is dead
And let me put it this way: Microsoft was sued for the way they handled their Live points. Pretty heavily. And there wasn't even any theft involved, just the way they sold their points to make sure people always had leftovers.
I think I'll take my chances if it comes down to that.
... and by the way, what sort of argument is "Oh he was just someone you fell out with, tough luck" ? Even if it WAS the case, how exactly does that make a crime not a crime? Ridiculous.
Its not my argument and I totally sympathize and hope you do get a refund, but from my experience this is often the response.
Difficult though I know this is, staying calm is your only option right now. If Cryptic gave you back your characters, then it means they have accepted that your account was TRIBBLE. By that token they also have no choice but to refund or reinstate your Zen. An EULA has never, nor will ever, override the laws of a country and as such you would be well within your rights to seek a legal solution.
Having said that, Cryptic/PWE, whilst terribly terribly slow to do almost anything it seems, are not without common sense and it would be best to ensure you have made every attempt to resolve this matter before attempting a legal solution.
Sig by my better half.
All relevant data is on their end. The failures with the Account Guard is their problem, thus the onus is on them.
No, what they have are recorded details of the IP address and MAC address of the computer that accessed the account. This is recorded every time the game is started up. You agree to this monitoring of your hardware and software environment when you sign the EULA.
This part at least is correct. Though the mere fact that they restored his characters fully is evidence enough that they too believe the account was TRIBBLE, and that this wasn't some sort of scam.
He understands this. What he and many others don't understand is why it takes PWE so long to actually do anything, and even when they do they don't get it right. Standing up for ones rights as a consumer is what ensures companies are kept on the straight and narrow, unless of course you like the idea of companies not having to conform to any kind of good business standards.
Sig by my better half.
but i have to say.. this sounds like he will never get a refund..
its like going to the bank.. withdrawing some money.. you get mugged outside.. then you go back in the bank and demand more money for free.
Your Javelin deals 125417 (89066) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Tholian Recluse. > lol
I find your reaction understandable, but as pointed out, Cryptic have no way to prove or disprove your claims. Maybe if humans were a better species of ape they'd be able to trust you.
And in the TOS agreement, (which by continuing to play STO is a defacto agreement to its terms...) states.
http://www.perfectworld.com/about/terms
So Cryptic/PWE has already protected themselves before you even started playing the game. You should consider yourself lucky that you got your characters back and leave it at that...
Not until a legal precedence is set in favor of the EULA/TOS. Most EULA's/TOS' aren't worth the bytes they take up in installation files because if they were ever legally challenged, there is a very high chance they would fall foul of consumer protection laws. Hell, since they hold the data they can be held legally responsible if said data is maliciously accessed in the EU. That is, if the claimant can prove (not the defendant OP) that the security measures used to protect said information are at fault.
Neither Cryptic nor PWE are new to the MMORPG business, and no doubt that well paid legal advice was used to pick the wording of the TOS agreement..
(I have yet to see in the history of MMORPG gaming anyone take a content provider to court over account EULA/TOS terms, usually because they are there to cover the providers TRIBBLE not the consumer.
That bit you quoted though still seems rather paper thing, even under US law which has rubbish consumer protection laws.. (seriously guys - go lobby your senators for better rights)
They reinstated his characters. That doesn't get done until they are happy with the explanation. Try again.
That is the guys problem. They seem to be taking an extraordinarily long time on this bit, hence his thread.
All of which, were you playing STO, would have made the Account Guard system go nuts. And if it didn't then you either turned it off, or its broken. Again, that is on Cryptic/PWE to sort out, as I already pointed out.
This bit I completely agree with, as I already stated, he just needs to stay calm (I was also thinking about Mr Jump The Gun from the other thread).
Sig by my better half.
Oooh, was that the infamous case involving Blizzard and someone making money off of their property? (If it is, that was a case where the EULA was already covered by various IP/copyright/insert as appropriate laws etc i believe - Blizzard just needed the court to say you are right (and won a fortune iirc) - If it is that case, that was Blizzard suing the person in breach, not the other way around.
If it's a different case, i'd love a link to an article about it if you can find one (or the court papers themselves) so I can be better armed in the future and gain some more knowledge on the subject.
Can you honestly tell me that a law court would uphold an EULA? Especially after the company has admitted at least partial liability by restoring everything else on the account? I do not think so. Also it should be noted that no EULA ever written affects, nullifies or in any way invalidates someones standard consumer rights.
For example, in the EULA it clearly states that PWE have the right to take your money and then deny you access to the service, and I quote "for no reason at all" with no right to a refund. In any court of law in almost any country, that section alone would be instantly dismissed by the Judge as being tantamount to obtaining money by deception if not outright fraud.
PWE have already admitted at least partial responsibility by re-instating the OPs account, their failure to attend to the rest of the issue would likely be considered a breach of the EULA on their part.
Sig by my better half.
This is not useful at all. The OP has clearly shown that Cryptic/PW have accepted that his account was TRIBBLE, and have taken action to resolve this.
The OP is aggravated as most would be, that certain elements are missing such as dilithium levels etc.
Best advice in the thread. And of course, the correct method to go about it.
It is an admission of liability and that is what matters. I merely suggested that it was another case of the Account Guard failing as that, to me, seems the most likely avenue for hackers to take.
There was a phone number posted on another thread somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.
Sig by my better half.
I have to say, it's not quite a problem with account guard, but with the email change verification.
The email can be changed without having access to the 'old' email address. Which lets someone who has gotten access to your login credentials to circumvent the account guard by first changing the email without verification from the original, thus all the account guard notices get sent to the new email.
This also lets you change the email back as long as they haven't changed the password for the account.
It's a definite flaw in the system that allows easy circumventing of the account guard function which is supposed to be an extra layer of protection in the case your credentials are compromised. Which it is failing to do at the time of these 'hacks'.
You report that your account was TRIBBLE. The first response is to lock your account to prevent any further access from unauthorized people.
CS will usually then make you verify that you are in fact the owner of the account and then they will usually make you reset your password.
After that has been done, your account is released.
Bam, done. Nothing in that is an admission on their part that you were in fact TRIBBLE, or that any security measures in place to help prevent (help prevent, not 100% stop it from happening) failed, etc.
You have reported that as a result of the account compromise, your items were removed (stolen), from your account and your characters deleted.
Sometimes a recovery process can be done to restore your characters and items, but funds are usually long gone and cannot be recovered.
They have been transferred through 3 or more different accounts, items purchased, funds spent, etc., with no way to recover the funds without hurting more innocent people.
In 99.99% of the cases of true account compromise, the affected person will not get their monetary funds replaced.
Well, a lawsuit was filed over it... hasn't gotten anywhere in the last three years except the plaintiff forum shopping against repeated dismissal motions to avoid getting completely thrown out of court.
The simple fact is, PWE is not responsible for your lost Zen and such from YOUR account being TRIBBLE..... That is a position you signed off on too. Keep your account secure. Don't make easy to guess passwords.
Their acts wold not constitute proof of legal liability. If someone else stole your hammer, and I got you a new one, does that make me legally liable for the theft? No.
They acknowledged it as a hacking attempt during their first response. Very explicitly. They just failed to completely restore everything. They didn't say "You wont get currencies restored", they just didn't do it and assumed their job was done with character restoration.
And the EULA can say whatever they want - the moment you sell your product on a market, you are bound by the laws of that market. Even defining a responsible seat of court in an EULA is open to question in some cases. One example was mentioned already. Another example are swiss regulations about the protection of personal information, which are applicable in my case whether Cryptic cares or not.
The main reason why things like that rarely get challenged is the sheer hassle involved for everyone, and the fact that they could still terminate your account if they want to.
I also understand they are overworked thanks to LoR, NW, and a significant number of similar cases to mine.
What I don't understand is why they fail at their first response, and don't manage more than an automated response - even a brief "Hi there, we are investigating the details, stand by" would be better. But as it is now, my tickets dont even get categorized correctly, the support site keeps spitting error messages, and the ingame ticket system is down more often than not. I'm simply not even sure they HAVE my tickets anywhere with the way they handle it.