Is being a snotty jerk really logical?

scruffyvulcan · May 2013

That's always been my problem with Vulcans.

They aren't just logical... they're jerks about it. They're condescending and downright insulting about it sometimes.

You'd think logic would dictate that the best way to recommend a course of action would be to recommend that action in a way that is most readily accepted by an emotional species, as opposed to a way that almost always makes that species confrontational.

You'd think after centuries of seeing humans react badly to them, they'd logically pursue a method of communicating with humans that promotes results.

The Vulcans are always chastising humanity for not appropriately respecting other cultures, but I can't really think of a single example where Vulcans respected human culture.

What do you think? Do you think Vulcans are truly logical or are they mostly logical with a touch of condescending jerk?

capnmanx · May 2013

Well, here's one: Spock researching the traditions of 'camping out' (ST:V). They do sometimes try, they just aren't very good at it.

Anyway, Vulcans feel the same way about us, as seen when Tuvok complains about how humans always seem to think that everyone should try to be more like them ('Flashback' VOY).

mirrorchaos · May 2013

the awakening will tell more about the vulcans then you will ever get from a vulcan him/herself. all those years ago vulcans were ruthless, warlike even beyond klingon standards, were paranoid and xenophobic. when the war ended a large group of vulcans left and turned into the romulans. on vulcan though with the kir'shara and surak teaching logic to get away from the more predatory instincts of the vulcan past, they buried their emotions with meditation and an surpression system in the brain developed.

they still have their emotions some say that emotions has no control over their actions, but from how animated vulcans are, i dont believe that for a moment, they try to hide their intentions but their violent ways can not be completely wiped out like any other emotion, t'pol, t'pau, v'las, kuvak, spock, tuvok, sakonna and even Solok.

so being around humans affects their thinking and duty to a point that they dont realize they are not in full control of what they are doing. so you get the situation where its ironic, vulcans are trying to escape emotions and they serve on a ship full of emotion.

captainrevo1 · May 2013

They cant. to try and give news in a more sympathetic way requires the emotion of sympathy. why would a vulcan sugar coat something just to appease another persons feelings? to them that would be a waste of time, especially as they see suppressing emotions as being the right thing to do. they probably hope that other species will come round to their way of thinking than trying to make others feel more comfortable.

they often just tell you the facts as they stand. they may be blunt, but its the human and others who gets upset because of it. again a vulcan would not see that as their fault. they present facts and logic.

now i will say they did overdo the the vulcans in enterprise to the point of being obnoxious tools, and a lot of the stuff they said was not actually logical or fair and even had hints of emotion, but i think that was meant to show a vulcan people that were losing their way.

catstarsto · May 2013

captainrevo1 wrote: »

They cant. to try and give news in a more sympathetic way requires the emotion of sympathy. why would a vulcan sugar coat something just to appease another persons feelings? to them that would be a waste of time, especially as they see suppressing emotions as being the right thing to do. they probably hope that other species will come round to their way of thinking than trying to make others feel more comfortable.

they often just tell you the facts as they stand. they may be blunt, but its the human and others who gets upset because of it. again a vulcan would not see that as their fault. they present facts and logic.

now i will say they did overdo the the vulcans in enterprise to the point of being obnoxious tools, and a lot of the stuff they said was not actually logical or fair and even had hints of emotion, but i think that was meant to show a vulcan people that were losing their way.

I would agree, as with many even in our own real life culture, the Noble/Royal/Super rich and refined believe themselves to be at the hieght of perfection due to thier status and education, thats why they talk down to you with such superiority and disrespect, and refuse to be seen with peaple they consider to be below thier standard of living..."would you greet a wild ape like you would a person?" The Vulcans mentioned the stink of the humans, the humans mentioned the stink of the klingons, and the Klingon mentioned the stink of the lack of content in the game for them

but it just shows, once a culture thinks themselves the centerpoint of culture and refinement, they gain aerogance almost overnight, and thats how u gain an Empiral state of mind like the Romulans....or middle ages England...ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt...etc.

EDIT: For those Dungeons and Dragons fans who know thier Elven lore, this explains thier personallity and culture too. FYI to Neverwinter players.

scruffyvulcan · May 2013

captainrevo1 wrote: »

They cant. to try and give news in a more sympathetic way requires the emotion of sympathy. why would a vulcan sugar coat something just to appease another persons feelings? to them that would be a waste of time, especially as they see suppressing emotions as being the right thing to do. they probably hope that other species will come round to their way of thinking than trying to make others feel more comfortable

I don't know. That sounds like ethnocentrism more than logic. After hundreds of years of dealing with humans, they have to know by now that a stubborn refusal to consider a human's emotions when delivering information is almost always counter-productive to the greater goal, and that, on its face, is illogical.

Don't get me wrong... I like that about Vulcans. I like that they aren't actually a superior race, but they think they are.

But they really do often choose to deliver information or counter-arguments in a way that they know will be counter-productive to the greater goal... yet they do it anyway.

I mean, softening news a little might be exactly what it takes to get a Captain to consider an action that would save the entire crew, but you'll rarely see a Vulcan willing to soften that delivery. He'd rather just say it bluntly and later blame the Captain for refusing to listen.

It's almost like they value being right more than they value actual results.

scruffyvulcan · May 2013

capnmanx wrote: »

Well, here's one: Spock researching the traditions of 'camping out' (ST:V). They do sometimes try, they just aren't very good at it.

Anyway, Vulcans feel the same way about us, as seen when Tuvok complains about how humans always seem to think that everyone should try to be more like them ('Flashback' VOY).

A fun side-note in the camping story... in the Star Trek V novelization, the reason Spock gets so many things wrong is because Bones knew that Spock would research camping and before the trip went into the computer and added a bunch of misinformation (like the incorrect spelling of "marshmallow").

messahla · May 2013

captainrevo1 wrote: »

They cant. to try and give news in a more sympathetic way requires the emotion of sympathy. why would a vulcan sugar coat something just to appease another persons feelings? to them that would be a waste of time, especially as they see suppressing emotions as being the right thing to do. they probably hope that other species will come round to their way of thinking than trying to make others feel more comfortable.

they often just tell you the facts as they stand. they may be blunt, but its the human and others who gets upset because of it. again a vulcan would not see that as their fault. they present facts and logic.

now i will say they did overdo the the vulcans in enterprise to the point of being obnoxious tools, and a lot of the stuff they said was not actually logical or fair and even had hints of emotion, but i think that was meant to show a vulcan people that were losing their way.

In short vulcans are like walking talking living breathing computers they will give you the stone cold facts even if it pisses you off.

scruffyvulcan · May 2013

messahla wrote: »

In short vulcans are like walking talking living breathing computers they will give you the stone cold facts even if it pisses you off.

Right. And I think that's illogical when they know full well that pissing off human might impact that human's ability to make decisions.

They have a "Well, I gave them the info; if they can't handle it, that's their problem" attitude, which is inherently illogical.

The computer analogy is pretty accurate, I think. It's like Vulcans intentionally choose to use logic without any inclusion of wisdom or experience.

jonsills · May 2013

I think part of it is that humans remind them of how they used to be, only we found a way to cope with it that didn't involve suppression of our emotions. And at some level, that profoundly irritates them.

Remember, even in TOS we were shown that Vulcans had deep and powerful emotions, they were just embarrassed about them. (cf Spock in "This Side of Paradise", "Amok Time", "The Naked Time", "All Our Yesterdays"; Spock and Sarek, particularly regarding interactions with Amanda, in "Journey to Babel".)

lonnehart · May 2013

Vulcans still have emotions, I think. A good example (for me anyway) occurred when I was playing a new Romulan character during that mission on Khitomer when you're trying to get a conference going. Speaking to T'Nae I could feel quite a bit of hate and mistrust in her speech. Not sure if it was because she didn't want to be there or if she just hates Romulans in general...

mistertwid · May 2013

jonsills wrote: »

I think part of it is that humans remind them of how they used to be, only we found a way to cope with it that didn't involve suppression of our emotions. And at some level, that profoundly irritates them.

Remember, even in TOS we were shown that Vulcans had deep and powerful emotions, they were just embarrassed about them. (cf Spock in "This Side of Paradise", "Amok Time", "The Naked Time", "All Our Yesterdays"; Spock and Sarek, particularly regarding interactions with Amanda, in "Journey to Babel".)

Funny you should mention that because I realized that irritation is the one emotion that Vulcans don't seem to be able to fully suppress. For example, put Tuvok in a situation where he's alone with his best buddy Neelix for more than 2 minutes.

As far as being arrogant and condescending, you certainly see that in the DS9 episode where they play baseball. But I suppose that makes some amount of sense. If Romulans are well known for their arrogance and they are basically Vulcans that ran away from home, wouldn't it go to follow that a Vulcan would have the same traits? Emotional suppression isn't going to change a personality characteristic, only in how it is projected.

gulberat · May 2013

I haven't written the story yet, but I did have a Vulcan character in mind who does conclude that it is illogical to say and do things that he or she knows will be hurtful to another person, even when it would not be the Vulcan way to process it as hurtful. This is both because it is wrong to knowingly do harm, and because it is not expedient to do something that will reduce cooperation to achieve his desired outcome. This character is still quite Vulcan, but is noticeably very quiet and unassuming compared to the way Vulcans usually come off.

As for T'Nae...part of me finds myself wondering if the little racist jerk hates herself. Could she be part Romulan?

satinavian · May 2013

To understand someones emotions, you have to mirror them. That is the foundation of empathy. Humans even have a certain part of their brain dedicated to mirror other peoples emotions.

Unfortunately that mirror-thing does pretty much work like the real brain part. You can't really understand other people, you can only understand, how you would feel in their shoes. But that is not the same. It is only a projection.

Now, with Vulcans and their deep and fundamental training to control emotions from childhood on, how would empathy look like ?

I don't think they don't want to understand humans. They simply can't. It's like a Pavlov reflex to react on any emotion felt or mirrored with instant suppression.

Either that or they fear that allowing empathy and feeling with others required giving up their own emotional control and having cloudy thoughts.

We have similar things even on earth. We have cultures known for bluntness and not sugar coating messages. And it does lead to understanding problems with outsiders. A lot. In both directions. Not a joke. We have management guides for both sides explaining in detail that "That is interesting, let's have a look at in at another time" can translate to "No" and vice versa.
And we have some people with minor brain damages in that particular region and real problems understanding other people at all. Vulcans would be something in between. A culture even far more exotic but with the ability to understand at least other Vulcans.

doffingcomrade · May 2013

Vulcans aren't snotty jerks, it is merely your human foibles that causes you to perceive them as such. It is a common thing with humans to automatically perceive everything through the lens of what YOU would be doing if you were that guy. This, of course, is why the tone of 90% of Internet messages is misinterpreted: Without the expressive cues that allow you to see what the other guy is feeling, you frame the message in terms of how you would feel if you were saying such a thing. You perceive the Vulcans as being snotty jerks because you project yourself and your culture onto an alien from an alien culture. Vulcans aren't humans. They aren't from your culture. Their expressions are not yours. They don't even actually speak your language. Can you really understand just how another being is feeling based on what amounts to a fancy Google Translator? The logical thing to do would be to simply accept what they say at face value without attempting to attach an emotional tone to it, as you should know that Vulcans don't have those.

Of course, the Vulcans most prone to getting on poorly with humans are generally ones that don't have all that much contact with humans. When even a lifetime spent as a human among other humans does not enable you to properly understand humans, how can you expect Vulcans to understand humans?

dareau · May 2013

See: Spock in TMP. Specifically Kolinahr ritual(s).

To the Vulcans, while logic would call for even "fake" empathy, aka sugar-coating bad news, even this "mild" display of emotion runs counter-productive to their goal of completely squishing emotion, so the "hyper-logical computer" act is the primary goal of Vulcans.

And then, Spock pretty much flat out rejects it after his mind-meld with V'Ger. He notes that V'Ger is the "expression of the Vulcan logic goal made material", but that it's absence of emotions messes it up.

twg042370 · May 2013

Spock was a certain way due to a mess of writers and a mess of fanmail. Later writers decided that all Vulcans would be Spock X10. Spock "humanized" after he died but the Vulcans became Spock's bad points X10 and by the time Enterprise rolled off the line they were another planet of hats.

The Jem'Hadar had more variety.

marcusdkane · May 2013

doffingcomrade wrote: »

Vulcans aren't snotty jerks, it is merely your human foibles that causes you to perceive them as such. It is a common thing with humans to automatically perceive everything through the lens of what YOU would be doing if you were that guy. This, of course, is why the tone of 90% of Internet messages is misinterpreted: Without the expressive cues that allow you to see what the other guy is feeling, you frame the message in terms of how you would feel if you were saying such a thing. You perceive the Vulcans as being snotty jerks because you project yourself and your culture onto an alien from an alien culture. Vulcans aren't humans. They aren't from your culture. Their expressions are not yours. They don't even actually speak your language. Can you really understand just how another being is feeling based on what amounts to a fancy Google Translator? The logical thing to do would be to simply accept what they say at face value without attempting to attach an emotional tone to it, as you should know that Vulcans don't have those.

Of course, the Vulcans most prone to getting on poorly with humans are generally ones that don't have all that much contact with humans. When even a lifetime spent as a human among other humans does not enable you to properly understand humans, how can you expect Vulcans to understand humans?

+1

A Human behaving that way is being a jerk as they are behaving thus to be unpleasant. The average Vulcan is not, as they are not trying to elicit an emotional response, and to deliberately attempt to provoke counter-productive emotions in others would be illogical. Of course, Captain Solok definitely came across as being intentionally provocative, but I do think Sisko's ego would have done as much to continue to fuel their rivalry. Spock, on the other hand, deliberately played up an ignorance of anything Human to downplay his Human heritage. He had to be more Vulcan than Vulcan, so played up to that... Tuvok, on the other hand, was a pureblood Vulcan with nothing to prove, and a good century of experience to mature him beyond Solok's juvenile attitude, and Spock's Human need for the approval of Sarek, and the acceptance of his shipments... Tuvok proved that Vulcans have emotions, but are not ruled by them..

scruffyvulcan · May 2013

doffingcomrade wrote: »

Vulcans aren't snotty jerks, it is merely your human foibles that causes you to perceive them as such. It is a common thing with humans to automatically perceive everything through the lens of what YOU would be doing if you were that guy. This, of course, is why the tone of 90% of Internet messages is misinterpreted: Without the expressive cues that allow you to see what the other guy is feeling, you frame the message in terms of how you would feel if you were saying such a thing. You perceive the Vulcans as being snotty jerks because you project yourself and your culture onto an alien from an alien culture. Vulcans aren't humans. They aren't from your culture. Their expressions are not yours. They don't even actually speak your language. Can you really understand just how another being is feeling based on what amounts to a fancy Google Translator? The logical thing to do would be to simply accept what they say at face value without attempting to attach an emotional tone to it, as you should know that Vulcans don't have those.

Of course, the Vulcans most prone to getting on poorly with humans are generally ones that don't have all that much contact with humans. When even a lifetime spent as a human among other humans does not enable you to properly understand humans, how can you expect Vulcans to understand humans?

I would agree with you except for one major point: Vulcan have emotions. Strong emotions.

Matter of fact, they have claimed their emotions are more powerful than ours; they just claim to have mastered theirs.

So Vulcans do understand humans. They just feel like they're superior to us because they've chosen what they believe is a better path. They're basically the ex-smokers who scoff at people who still smoke.

Logic isn't a default to Vulcans; it's a choice. A choice that requires intense discipline. To suggest they don't understand us is inaccurate. They do understand us. They just don't respect us. If they did, they would put forth at least a little effort to communicate with us in ways that are respectful to our culture.

So a Vulcan knows - from hundreds of years of experience - our most likely response to certain stimuli, yet they still choose to deliver information in a way they know will be counter-productive to a greater goal.

And if they don't know it, Vulcans are not only jerks; they're incredibly stupid. Human behavior is incredibly easy to predict. Most races in the galaxy acknowledge that humans are a predictable race. So if Vulcans don't know our most likely reaction to information delivered in a certain way, they're incredibly stupid. And if they do know, yet choose to ignore it even if it would get better results, they're illogicial, disrespectful jerks.

scruffyvulcan · May 2013

And to clarify my point... my problem isn't their attitudes. I don't have the same complaint about, say, Klingons, because the Klingons haven't embraced a philosophy founded on respecting other cultures.

Vulcans have.

And to choose to act in a way that you know will be interpreted as disrespectful by another culture is not logical.

And we're not talking about a lack of emotions here. Data had no emotions, but he put forth effort to show respect to his counterparts. Vulcans flatly refuse to put forth that effort.

mirrorchaos · May 2013

satinavian wrote: »

To understand someones emotions, you have to mirror them. That is the foundation of empathy. Humans even have a certain part of their brain dedicated to mirror other peoples emotions.

Unfortunately that mirror-thing does pretty much work like the real brain part. You can't really understand other people, you can only understand, how you would feel in their shoes. But that is not the same. It is only a projection.

Now, with Vulcans and their deep and fundamental training to control emotions from childhood on, how would empathy look like ?

I don't think they don't want to understand humans. They simply can't. It's like a Pavlov reflex to react on any emotion felt or mirrored with instant suppression.

Either that or they fear that allowing empathy and feeling with others required giving up their own emotional control and having cloudy thoughts.

We have similar things even on earth. We have cultures known for bluntness and not sugar coating messages. And it does lead to understanding problems with outsiders. A lot. In both directions. Not a joke. We have management guides for both sides explaining in detail that "That is interesting, let's have a look at in at another time" can translate to "No" and vice versa.
And we have some people with minor brain damages in that particular region and real problems understanding other people at all. Vulcans would be something in between. A culture even far more exotic but with the ability to understand at least other Vulcans.

Tuvok can read Janeway, Spock can read Kirk, T'pol can read Archer, Soval can read Forrest. they know what empathy is even if they are disdainful of it and they can on occasion bend their wording on a subject to suit the circumstance even if it is not fully apparent right away.

marcusdkane · May 2013

scruffyvulcan wrote: »

I would agree with you except for one major point: Vulcan have emotions. Strong emotions.

Matter of fact, they have claimed their emotions are more powerful than ours; they just claim to have mastered theirs.

So Vulcans do understand humans. They just feel like they're superior to us because they've chosen what they believe is a better path. They're basically the ex-smokers who scoff at people who still smoke.

You only perceive them thus because you interpret their behavior as being emotionally motivated, as a Human Elitist's would be. It is not. Without emotional motivations, such behavior is merely different to what Humans may be accustomed to encountering. While some Humans may take umbrage at Vulcan brusqueness, others would simply accept it as normal behavior for a Vulcan

maxvitor · May 2013

Vulcan logic and emotionless has never born close examination, their every word and action is colored with the emotions they claim to lack and they often display a lack of logic in choosing words and actions that their logic should tell them would be interpreted unfavorably by parties who do not suppress their emotions.
A truly logical Vulcan would be the ultimate conman, using words, actions and feigned emotions guaranteed to be the most beneficial to him regardless of his personal feelings in the matter, Vulcans as they are portrayed in the franchise do nothing of the sort.
Ferenghi have better emotional and logical control than Vulcans, it's one of the reasons why they are so untrustworthy.

scruffyvulcan · May 2013

marcusdkane wrote: »

You only perceive them thus because you interpret their behavior as being emotionally motivated, as a Human Elitist's would be. It is not. Without emotional motivations, such behavior is merely different to what Humans may be accustomed to encountering. While some Humans may take umbrage at Vulcan brusqueness, others would simply accept it as normal behavior for a Vulcan

That's not really an accurate assessment of my comment. I'm not making an assumption here. They openly state, quite regularly, that they believe themselves to be more culturally evolved than us. Not technologically evolved, mind you. Culturally evolved. They don't see themselves as simply different (culturally) from humanity. They see themselves as superior. This has been declared outright. It's the very reason they opposed Starfleet's exploration. So my metaphor was decidedly human, but my allegory was sound.

But that's side-stepping my point. My point isn't that they're jerks. Yes, I worded it that way in the title, but that was just a fun way to start.

My point is this: They claim to live by a philosophy of respecting other cultures yet they choose to behave in a way that they know will be perceived as disrespectful by another culture. That's neither logical nor consistent. Whether or not the Vulcans consider the behavior disrespectful should be secondary to them, yet it is not.

scruffyvulcan · May 2013

On a side-note, I know I'm making it sound like I hate Vulcans. That's really not the case. I'm just having fun here.

Truth is, I find Vulcans absolutely (pardon the wording) fascinating. I love that they have an entire culture based on suppression and I love that there are consequences to that suppression. They're very multilayered.

Personally, I think Spock in Star Trek 6 was a Vulcan that finally reached the apex of emotional evolution. He didn't suppress emotions. Instead, he embraced them without letting them control him. I love his line, "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris. Not the End."

marcusdkane · May 2013

scruffyvulcan wrote: »

That's not really an accurate assessment of my comment. I'm not making an assumption here. They openly state, quite regularly, that they believe themselves to be more culturally evolved than us. Not technologically evolved, mind you. Culturally evolved. They don't see themselves as simply different (culturally) from humanity. They see themselves as superior. This has been declared outright. It's the very reason they opposed Starfleet's exploration. So my metaphor was decidedly human, but my allegory was sound.

But that's side-stepping my point. My point isn't that they're jerks. Yes, I worded it that way in the title, but that was just a fun way to start.

My point is this: They claim to live by a philosophy of respecting other cultures yet they choose to behave in a way that they know will be perceived as disrespectful by another culture. That's neither logical nor consistent. Whether or not the Vulcans consider the behavior disrespectful should be secondary to them, yet it is not.

Vulcans are superior to Humans, both physically and mentally... They may know that their actions may be perceived in a certain way, but equally, those perceptions are internal to the individual. For the Vulcan to modify their behavior to pander to Human emotions, would be to abandon their beliefs simply to assimilate, and would be proving the point Tuvok made to Dmitri Valtane that Humans expect other races to behave like them... To say that Vulcan society respects other societies, might best be said that Vulcan society respects other societies right to be other societies, rather than expecting them to follow Vulcan standards

That's not to say that Vulcan society hasn't altered over the years between the events of Enterprise and Voyager, as would only be logical when one culture encounters others

markhawkman · May 2013

maxvitor wrote: »

Vulcan logic and emotionless has never born close examination, their every word and action is colored with the emotions they claim to lack and they often display a lack of logic in choosing words and actions that their logic should tell them would be interpreted unfavorably by parties who do not suppress their emotions.
A truly logical Vulcan would be the ultimate conman, using words, actions and feigned emotions guaranteed to be the most beneficial to him regardless of his personal feelings in the matter, Vulcans as they are portrayed in the franchise do nothing of the sort.
Ferenghi have better emotional and logical control than Vulcans, it's one of the reasons why they are so untrustworthy.

An Andorian brought that up in Enterprise. This person pointed out that Vulcans had a very Romulan-esque habit of deceiving others by telling a colored version of the truth. They'd carefully leave out details to trick people into beleiveing things that weren't true.

Maybe they've changed (somewhat) since then... but the Sisko had an encounter with a Vulcan who was practically an egomaniac....

Another thing to ponder is one of Janeway's observations about Tuvok. She mentioned that Vulcans do have facial expressions that show their true emotions, but they're more subtle than those of most races.

markhawkman · May 2013

scruffyvulcan wrote: »

On a side-note, I know I'm making it sound like I hate Vulcans. That's really not the case. I'm just having fun here.

Truth is, I find Vulcans absolutely (pardon the wording) fascinating. I love that they have an entire culture based on suppression and I love that there are consequences to that suppression. They're very multilayered.

Personally, I think Spock in Star Trek 6 was a Vulcan that finally reached the apex of emotional evolution. He didn't suppress emotions. Instead, he embraced them without letting them control him. I love his line, "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris. Not the End."

Oh yes. That was awesome. Even Spock admitted that Vulcans feel the same emotions as Humans do. As he put it, logic isn't the absence of emotion but thinking without letting emotion control you.

scruffyvulcan · May 2013

marcusdkane wrote: »

Vulcans are superior to Humans, both physically and mentally... They may know that their actions may be perceived in a certain way, but equally, those perceptions are internal to the individual. For the Vulcan to modify their behavior to pander to Human emotions, would be to abandon their beliefs simply to assimilate, and would be proving the point Tuvok made to Dmitri Valtane that Humans expect other races to behave like them... To say that Vulcan society respects other societies, might best be said that Vulcan society respects other societies right to be other societies, rather than expecting them to follow Vulcan standards That's not to say that Vulcan society hasn't altered over the years between the events of Enterprise and Voyager, as would only be logical when one culture encounters others

It would not be pandering and it would not be abandoning their beliefs. Your answer is a rationalization, not a justification.

If no good will come from giving an opinion, stating that opinion is not logical.

"Captain, your plan is not only illogical. It is short-sighted, unnecessarily dangerous, and driven by your human need for revenge. It would be far more logical to approach this situation..."

or

"Captain, I certainly respect your decision and understand why you've made it. That said, I have a suggestion for a plan you might find more effective..."

Both statements are completely true. Neither statement panders to anything and neither statement abandons any beliefs.

And while the second statement would almost certainly get results, the first statement is the kind of statement a Vulcan chooses to give, even though it's almost certain to spark defensive behavior.

Put bluntly, stating it that way is not logical and accomplishes nothing. It's counter-productive to the goal.

Again, this isn't about a lack of emotions. Data has no emotions, but he strives to speak to other cultures in ways that are respectful to that culture's method of communication.

On a side note, Marcus, our entire debate here could easily be an argument between Bones and Spock.

This is fun.

gulberat · May 2013

I've got to agree with scruffyvulcan on this one. While Marcus captures what a hard-liner Vulcan might say to explain his decision to act that way, it doesn't address the fact that the Vulcan does so consistently knowing that the results will be counterproductive and possibly even damaging. Never mind whether a human "should" feel such things or not--it is not a Vulcan's place to try to force a human to become something he or she has not chosen freely. That's right up there with trying to force a person to profess different religious beliefs by continuously harassing them.

twg042370 · May 2013

Never attribute to culture that which can be adequately explained by bad, and often contradictory, writing in weekly genre shows.

Is being a snotty jerk really logical?

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