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Warbirds useless in PvP due to Penalty on Energy Levels
richardgross82
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Although there was some discussion in the past about that topic I would like to raise it again since I feel it was just lost.
Seriously - the singularity cores abilities are nice and fun in PvE but not really usefull in PvP - and they can not compensate for the -40(!) on energy levels. The Battle cloak can not compensate for that either ... hit and run sounds like a valid strategy in PvP - but it does not work against tanks. In a direct competition fed/kdf-ships will have a much higher survivability and firepower thanks to their higher energy levels:
- more energy on weapons = more damage
- more energy on impulse engine = more speed = more damage resistance
- more engery on shilds = faster shild regeneration
- more energy on aux = boosts many science skills
So please add the option to change the singulartiy core in warbirds for warp cores to get 50 base energy - or maybe some kind of "pvp singulartiy core" which comes without the abilities but with 50 base energy.
At this point I would like to at a quote from the April Ask Cryptic:
I'm pretty sure that adding a mechanig to the game which will be a penalty for romulan players in PvP will not do PvP good in any way ...
Seriously - the singularity cores abilities are nice and fun in PvE but not really usefull in PvP - and they can not compensate for the -40(!) on energy levels. The Battle cloak can not compensate for that either ... hit and run sounds like a valid strategy in PvP - but it does not work against tanks. In a direct competition fed/kdf-ships will have a much higher survivability and firepower thanks to their higher energy levels:
- more energy on weapons = more damage
- more energy on impulse engine = more speed = more damage resistance
- more engery on shilds = faster shild regeneration
- more energy on aux = boosts many science skills
So please add the option to change the singulartiy core in warbirds for warp cores to get 50 base energy - or maybe some kind of "pvp singulartiy core" which comes without the abilities but with 50 base energy.
At this point I would like to at a quote from the April Ask Cryptic:
Q: (dontdrunkimshoot) Will STO soon be able to use the Neverwinter PvP tools so PvP can finally get some attention?
STO Team: PvP is on the radar and something we?d like to update for STO. Stay tuned! Also, we are all proud of the recent graduates from PvP Boot Camp, and all the organizers and coaches! Great job to all involved with that program.
I'm pretty sure that adding a mechanig to the game which will be a penalty for romulan players in PvP will not do PvP good in any way ...
Post edited by richardgross82 on
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Carry on.
Given the math that several people have done in the ship + singularity feedback thread:
With appropriate skill allocation, power level selection and equipment choice, Warbirds will do perfectly fine.
Ok I see where this is going ...
Yes, there are certain ways to increase the energy levels of ships like putting skill points into warp core efficiency and potential and *** Performance and using gear which increase energy levels. Also there are consoles which do increase the energy levels.
But that is not the point:
1. Using all these ways to max the energy levels does also mean that you have you sacrifice other things like damage resistance for that.
2. Since Fed/Kdf can do that too - so in the end the warbird will still suffer from the penalty on energy levels compared to a Fed/Kdf-Ship.
Cryptic took some of the wiggle away by allowing Fed/KDF to run x/15 instead of x/25 though. So it will increase the gap some potentially because of the loss of the Efficiency/Potential boost x/15 gives over x/25. Sure, it was only a case of dropping it from -10 to -8 at the x/15 vs. x/25 zone; but it definitely allowed some wiggle room.
Have to wonder if I blundered...meh. Going through and showing how it would be okay, not that bad...then not long after, the Fed/KDF get x/15 as well which threw everything off.
I haven't bothered to do a recalc. I probably should. I just kind of changed my avatar to Paradise Lost after that change though...meh.
What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
Well I'll tell you the first problem. You're trying to build it like you would any Federation or Klingon ship. You can't do that. But I can tell you're doing that because you're sitting there wanting your warp cores back.
If I may suggestion, just wait a week or two after launch, then go to the PvP section of these forums, and copy and paste somebody elses build for the Romulan ship you're using.
Both have +10 Weapon, +5 Engine
I'll go through a step by step process (color coded based on the above).
Will start each off with Cap/Remaining/Min/Min, eh?
110/100
70/70
20/15
15/15
110/100
30/30
20/15
15/15
-40 Shields
Add in Efficient Captain...
110/100
70/70
23/15
18/15
110/100
32/30
23/15
18/15
-38 Shields
Add in Warp Theorist, 6 Warp Core Potential, 6 Warp Core Efficiency, 6 Engine Performance, 6 Shield Performance, 0 Aux Performance, and 6 Weapon Performance...
123/100
84/70
45/15
32/15
123/100
52/30
45/15
32/15
-32 Shields
Add in a MACO 5stack, Borg, 0Point, and Nukara Console...
125(139)/100
100/70
57/15
44/15
125(139)/100
69/30
57/15
44/15
-31 Shields
Add in EPtS1/EPtW1...
125(164)/100
125/70
57/15
44/15
125(164)/100
94/30
57/15
44/15
-31 Shields
Add in Nukara engines...
(For the Chel, I'm going to make an adjustment here. Lower Shields by 5 and increase Engines by 5.)
125(164)/100
125(128)/65
61/20
44/15
125(164)/100
104/30
57/15
44/15
-21 Shields
-4 Engines
Add a Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk X [Eff][S->W] for the Chel Grett...
Add a 5pip Field Stabilizing Singularity Core Mk X [whatver] for the Warbird...
125(169)/100
129/65
63/20
46/15
125(164)/100
119/30
57/15
44/15
-5 Weapons Overcap
-10 Shields
-6 Engines
-2 Auxliary
What started out as a deficit of -40 (for shields) ended with a deficit of -23 (spread across four subystems)...
A caveat, mind you. That's a 5pip of the Singularity. If you use a Singularity ability, it will drop you down to -33 power...including being -20 at shields (109 vs. 129)...
...which brings up the point somebody made in another thread about whether folks will give up that additional +10 power to a subsystem to use an ability or will they just sit on the 5pips as soon as possible?
Course, this is just one example. I basically took a guy I've got on Holo, switched Aegis engines for Nukara engines, added the Nukara console, and picked "similar" Warp/Singularity Cores. Different folks with different skills/gear/etc will obviously have different results...
...but like I said, I wasn't happy with the x/15 change. It basically allowed me to put an additional 20 power into shields which I could then drop to 15 additional while dropping another 5 back into engines.
This is what it looked like without the x/15 change for Fed/KDF:
125(168)/100
120/50
67/25
53/25
125(164)/100
119/30
57/15
44/15
-4 Weapons Overcap
-1 Shields
-10 Engines
-9 Auxiliary
Might think, but hey...that's -24 compared to -23! The other way's better! Cause it's also -34 vs. -33! The other way's better! 1pt better!
With the x/25 version, the difference in Shields without 5pips is -11.
With the x/15 version, the difference in Shields without 5pips is -20.
With the x/25 version, with 5pips the difference in Shields is -1.
With the x/15 version, with 5pips the difference in Shields is -10.
To me, imho, that makes it worse. I'm trying to have Eng/Aux at acceptable levels while trying to minimize the difference in Wep/Shields...
...yeah, I'm not a fan of the x/15 for Feds/KDF.
So while it's not a continuous bump to weapon power, and it's not as reliable as EPtW, it is a factor.
there i go again, ANYWAY, the good rom ships can use a 2 AtB /w tech doffs setup, in addition to reducing cool downs it can buff up your power levels across the board. in a somewhat unreliable hills and valleys sort of way, but its something. all the ships, but the d'deridex, can have 2 LT eng for easily running this, real handy because several of them cant have near the uptime on tactical skills with just a COM tac and little else.
Even comparing BC boats, grab a BoP other than the B'rel to a Warbird - the numbers will be along the same lines but you'll be looking at the tankier Warbirds.
x/15 is -23/-33.
x/25 is -24/-34.
It's not so much about the amount of power as much as the location.
It's also the nagging thought about what x/15 will mean to certain Sci builds. Folks tend not to run Tet weapons with Tet Glider and other drain mechanics because you can't keep Weapons/Aux high...while also keeping Shields high enough, etc, etc, etc. The Sci won't need the overcap I gave the Weapons in that example. Shuffle some of that overcap into Shields, run Weapons/Aux high...grab some Leech - and...yeah... or heck, skip the Tets, grab Phased Polarons with Tet Glider and the rest, etc, etc, etc.
Heck, they boosted Photonic Fleet - so maybe the x/15's about helping out Sci too.
Course, none of this was taking into account all that an Eng could potentially do with power...the Manifold trait with DCE'd EPtX/EPtY or 2x EPtX means easy access to an additional +10 to all subsystems. Grab a WCE, maybe A2B, run Batt DOFFs, etc, etc, etc...
PvP is going to be interesting. Admittedly, at first it is going to be kind of funny - folks eating that month plus of Rep grind - the folks that have never flown a Battle Cloaking ship before (the complaints I've seen about it being broken as they die to torps have been kind of humorous)...
...then again, I'm not sure it matters. Personally, I'm planning on going K-Rom Fleet Torp'varo. That 2pc set bonus, KHG, and...yeah...
Heck, the Fleet BOgai with the 2pc - that additional drain protection, firing multiple BOs and still being able to drop out the Overcharge as well?
Yeah, there's some nasty sh...stuff that's going to be possible...as long as we buy the Refit/Retrofits. Heh, P2W complaints will likely be forthcoming...
First, just completely get rid of the base power drain.
Second, make a toggle ability called "Charge Singularity Capacitor." With this ability activated, you incur a -X power drain to all systems (could be the current -10 or whatever). With this ability disabled, you build up no Singularity Charges and suffer no power loss. Any Singularity Charges that have been built up will not be lost or degrade until you trigger one of the Singularity Abilities or have been out of combat for a certain period of time. Any bonuses that a Singularity Core would give you due to charge level will be maintained while "holding on" to the charge.
Third, get rid of the Singularity Lock-out after using a power. By getting rid of the lock-out, people will use the abilities more freely instead of just holding on to the charge to off-set the power loss incurred with the current system.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=531911
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=654691
But even then you end up sacrificing survivability from ETx, AUX2SIFx, etc just to keep up with the power levels of warp core ships. Then there's the DPS loss from not having EPtWx up at all times.
I'm currently running my Warbird with a +Aux Singularity core and EPtA to max out my Auxiliary power, then keeping A2B up as much as possible. For hull heals I rely on HE since that heal is based on auxiliary power.
I've also put at least 6 points in every skill that gives me more power. A maxed out battery skill is also critical, along with endlessly popping batteries like a drunken sailor.
Probably the biggest downside to running on Singularity power is having to endlessly micromanage your power levels. It requires far more micromanagement than Warp Cores to be competitive. I can see why Romulan ships are so big. They require far more crew, half of which are needed just to manage power levels. :P
Due to the cooldown and the way singularity powers work, I just use singularity charges as a power bonus and only use the abilities as my "Oh, S**t!" button in emergencies.
"And the power drain for Singularity cores is to much in my book at -40 at lower levels is far to heavy a price with already limited power. And since the singularity cores burn any power stored when an ability is used no point in making it that big of a drain. Throw in that the gap between Fed/KDF and romulans start off at -40 power and then we add in the fact that warp cores are vastly better at power output the gap only widens.
-20 is more balanced. The singularity powers are nice but not overly useful, battle cloak is the same if used poorly itll cost you your ship. Romulan ship cores already have enough down sides to balance it out without the drain being so steep.
They take time to charge.
The powers are weak.
They provide less power.
Once used they cant be used for 1 min.
Once used they have to recharge after 1min is up.
Once used you lose any +power gained for 1min.
Must maintain battle to keep charged, hard to make use of that battle cloak and keep core up.
Id say thats enough to balance them alone."
"Indeed this is one of the pitfalls of game designing. Every time i see a cooldown power in a game over 2mins i think to myself man they really didnt want anyone to use this right? The higher the cooldown the rarer the use of that power because people know its a "Oh Sh*t" button and to save it for the last min, but since you die and respawn/revive in most games people will put off using it completely just so its still available later.
End result its NEVER used. We run into the same problem with Sing cores not cause of the cooldown but the overall penalties. We spend a ton of skill points to mitigate the power loss, *which id do on any ship any how* but even mitigated we lag way behind in power.
So we charge our cores to get +10 power. +10 power to a fed/kdf ship is nice but not critical, 10 power to a rom ship who is -40 in the red? Totally vital. So am i going to blow that power for over a min+ for a gimick weak power? Sure, if its the last thing in a fight and i wont need to do anything for a while after anyhow. But aside from that? NO WAY IN HELL.
-20 power is fair and balanced. No matter how we try to make that up the gap is still there cause anything we can do a fed/kdf can do as well. And the sing powers just dont justify -40. They are nice, they are handy, but they are over all weak. Energy overcharge for example just does CRF for cannons and turrets but does LESS dmg. Sing jump gives a grav well but its weak and i see frigate npc fly away from it. Absorption is good but doesnt last long enough vs another person to be much of a deciding factor.
-20 power, and sing cores keep charge thats built out of combat, those 2 changes would make it all even. At current -40 power is far over estimating the value of the sing powers. And it seems they balanced the -40 vs the use of all 5 powers, problem is, you can only use 1 every min. So really it should be balanced around 1 power not 5."
"I suggest you try reading my post again man. No where did i say take them out, nor did i say i wanted to fly the ship like a carbon copy. I said to balance the usefulness of the powers they had to be considered as 1, and to that effect -40 for 1 power every 2mins roughly to charge it, would you give up 40 power for 1 cstore console even if it threw in a battle cloak? I wouldnt.
Cloak while nice for an alpha is tricky to use in pvp and pve with torp and mine spam. And a single special every 2 mins needs to be a real game changer like a buffed lance that lands a crit. Lets break down the powers.
Plasma shockwave, great for killing fighters and spam. Bout it, nothing a volley of FAW/CSV cant do with ease, not something worth 40 power. Sing jump, weak easily escape able grav well, with a straight jump in your forward direction, not far enough to escape much of anything, leaves your back to your enemy more then likely, not worth 40 power.
Warpshadow, not really useful at all, -40 power? ya right, though it is spiffy looking but bout all. Now down to the best 2. Energy overcharge, now with beams its about like firing BO 0.2 not BO1 increases beam dmg a lil bit bout a tac console worth, worth 40 power? no. Using cannons its a CRF with decreased dmg not increased, totally worthless.
Last Absorption, Gives good temp shield and hull, lasts decent duration. Could be a game changer if timed right, worth 40 power? Maybe.
Keep in mind im counting these at FULL 5 charge at their maxium usefulness.
1 out of 5 is a maybe on effectiveness for the price. Battle cloak for -40 power? BC is over rated even in good hands its not easy to use. Torp and mine spam by players and npcs means you gotta go a long way before you can use it. D'd running that far? not likely, most good pvpers wont let you run, and most endgame content like borg? Ya drop that shield vs the queen, btw borg target you cloaked or not. Watch donatra decloak and fire a blast right at you while your cloaked it blows.
Im not saying remove them, or increase their power, im saying the price for them is to high. Its cost to gain simple as that. -20 power makes sing cores more balanced -40 is just to high for what you get.
I personally like the ships, even as they are, but i dont look forward to trying to do a lot of stuff at endgame with it the way it is. Anyone thinking BC and sing powers are gonna be hugely helpful in pvp/endgame pve is gonna be disappointed. Tric mines/tholian mines + torpedos will crush those hopes and dreams.
Even if nothings changed ill play rom when it goes live. But -40 power will be a steep curve for a lot of players, just hope its not so steep it makes people go back to Fed/KDF because of it. If players want to play those factions i want it be because they like them, not because of to high a price. I like things balanced so people chose what they like and arent shoe horned into something because its the best option."
TLDR version - GO READ IT ANYHOW!
Not directing this at you, but I've wondered about that in regard to some of the complaints.
Not just with the Singularity Cores, mind you - but many of the complaints with LoR...certain missions, certain enemies, etc, etc, etc.
LoR is kicking it up a notch in several areas...
...this is generating complaints.
Odds are that Cryptic will listen to their more casual playerbase as they have in the past.
It's a shame, imho.
Just to moderately put things in prospective here, at a dead stop, my fed toon has a base defense of -15%. On my romulan its +7%. at 25 engine power, while in motion, defense is almost 80% if not higher.
To me this seems to balance things nicely, maybe even push it over in favor of warbirds.
*edit
so I double checked muh numbers, haven't been on tribble in a couple of days. Not moving, my defense is 20%(tho it reads 7.5% if I don't move at all after first going into the map, moving and stopping it reads 20%), moving at 15 engine power, 79%.
For example By using Overcharged / SEP / W->S I got from:
125/100, 59/40, 73/45, 41/15
to
125/100, 69/40, 75/45, 47/15
a total gain of 18 power.
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Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Yup. taht is the whole point of the topic i made. Trying to point out out Fed/KDF gets these huge power bonuses with mk X warp cores, and they'll only get higher with mk XI and XII yet romulans only get a +5 boost when using the abilities. and +15 if they don't use the abilities. which is still less than a warp core yet romulans get -40 power to start with.
A Mk X WC gives the same bonus to power as a Mk II WC...
I'm currently running a modified version of this build: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=531911
I use DHCs and Turrets in place of the beams and use battle cloaking to position myself for alpha strikes. It's actually pretty fun but would be even better if I could use the singularity abilities for more than just an "Oh, S**t!" button.
In the main thread, it's been very apparent that folks have different opinions on them both as a whole and individually...I think there was even somebody that liked the Warp Shadows. /cough
I find three of them to have their uses, even there - it's going to depend on the career/ship and what's being fought.
There is something, imho, that they might want to address in regard to where exactly the balancing is for the abilities. I asked about that in the main thread, but I don't expect any sort of answer on it.
Drop a Singularity Jump on a cube to debuff it's accuracy/damage/eat targetable torps...would require less healing and mean more damage could be done.
The Overcharge doesn't drain weapon power as you'd be unloading your DHCs/Turrets.
And then yeah, it gets into my meh feelings on the rest...lol. The Shockwave I can see having uses here and there for things when used in conjunction with other things. The other two...
...like I said, I'm wondering what the balancing point for Cryptic was with them.
warp jump to other side of target create GW
hit target with TR
using breen space set use breen siphon on target
using plasma torps and high yield skill hit target causing plasma burn damage.
this reduces a ships power and does alot of damage in a realitive short amount of time
im sure if players use this wisely they could adapt it to PvP.
What am I missing?
if you run 125 weapon energy the first weapon will fire at 125 energy, the second weapon will get only 115 (beam) or 113 (dual heavy cannon). If you Overcap weapon energy you have the effect that more weapons fire at high energy levels = much more damage.
Heh, it was just the following...
...and trying to stick to that.
So it was maximize Weapon power, minimize Eng/Aux, and then the remaining in Shield - with some Shield being shifted to Eng to avoid going over the 130 cap...
...wasn't a recommendation for power settings in the least.
...Shoot stuff, stare at weapon power levels, shoot more stuff, stare at more weapon power levels