So they adjusted pretty much every ship, 'cept the d'dex.
They nerfed the T'varo (And buffed the Dhelan, granted). And added the two pieces of the Ha'apex as an escort and a science vessel.
However, in the process, they severely reduced the value of the Starter pack I (And a few others in my fleet) purchased BECAUSE we'd seen the stats of the T'Varo on tribble. Even the fleet officer who bought the Legacy pack is considering asking for a refund.
The popular comparison is ordering say, a Mustang, and suddenly being told you're only getting the V6 version for the same money.
These stats were shown to the testers and thusly thrown about, and several orders were placed after seeing them, not sight-unseen as the packs roughly were up to this point. I'm willing to bet a lot people bought the starter pack knowing they'd get a Fleet Module discount on the awesome T'Varo.
Now those who have the starter pack, if they want a 5-tac escort, will have to pay FULL fleet module cost (or purchase cost of the base Dhelan retro +1 module) to get the Fleet Dhelan, or full FM cost with no discount for the Fleet Ha'Feh as it has no counterpart, on top of it needing a Tier 5 shipyard. Even those who bought the Legacy Pack will be paying full module cost for this (frankly, fairly ugly) ship.
Quite frankly, this reeks of a bait-and-switch money grab, and personally, I am not accepting it. I have submitted a support ticket asking for either the changes to be reverted, or a refund on my starter pack.
the T'Varo was so obviously overpowered that there was realy no hope for it to go live in the state it was in. its much more reasonable now. theres the *these stats are subject to change* tag for a reason. the store description mentions no stats. theres still basicly every niche there was before, just in different places. nothing was really lost
Then that's fine, if that's the direction they want to take, I will accept that, but I don't feel like paying for an item changed that drasticly. Minor changes I would happily have lived with, but a severe gutting, and an increase in cost to get the same or similar performance I was expecting to pay for, I will not.
It was very much a glimmer of hope for many, that "oh, you're going to get your money's worth" because the closed beta implied it. Today's "rebalance" has definitely given one the feeling that, now that they have your money, they can give you something significantly changed.
In some sense it would've been less aggravating if it were like a lottery... ship stats sight unseen until launch, caveat emptor if you paid. The website itself operated on this model, great! Then news floated out of Tribble.
Disclaimer aside, I can see why someone who went and got a Starter Pack feels misled.
I happened to have bought the Legacy Pack before the stats were shown off, so I am riding along as if I bought a lottery ticket. Don't always win ya know. There's also enough ships in a Legacy Pack that maybe you'll win in the end, on average.
So, +1 for the refund option here.
Vice Admiral Shiken, Senior Consul of the Council of Athena
In some sense it would've been less aggravating if it were like a lottery... ship stats sight unseen until launch, caveat emptor if you paid. The website itself operated on this model, great! Then news floated out of Tribble.
Disclaimer aside, I can see why someone who went and got a Starter Pack feels misled.
Pretty much this. If the T'Varo had shipped in it's current stats without any foreknowledge, I wouldn't have cared. But as I said, I bought the pack after seeing it on Tribble.
I realise I'm acting somewhat entitled, but frankly, I'm gonna let it stand.
It is true that on average all the ship types ended up being represented. A Legacy Pack buyer probably still will end up with the same ship mix.
It's a little different when you buy 1 ship and it ended up being something different in nature. Though I suppose we should all be glad it didn't end up being a Carrier instead of a Light Warbird,
Vice Admiral Shiken, Senior Consul of the Council of Athena
It is good that the top end now includes 3 ships - a cruiser, a sci vessel and an escort. I will admit that. They are rather spectacularly boring looking (The Ha'Feh is a Nasa Orbiter painted green with nacelles added to the wings, basically). However, adding the desirable 5-tac console layout as the Fleet Ha'Feh, meaning, as I mentioned, no fleet module discount on top of needing a t5 shipyard, just seems greedy to me.
Ok, yes. There is a sense of entitlement here. It's called being "entitled" to what you pay for, and what you thought you were getting when you paid the money. I understand the need to keep things balanced and all, but this isn't about that. It's about paying for one thing and then getting less than you bargained for.
Twenty bucks (specifically referring to the Starter Pack, Legacy Pack aside)... is still a good bit of money. How would you feel if you bought a twenty dollar piece of hardware, and it did not work as expected? You return it and get a refund. Why should buying one piece of code, only to see that code changed after purchase, be any different?
I like the new boff layout on the T'varo, it can copy do some of the best bop layouts now with it, the old boff layout was pretty bad in comparison. Giving up a 5th tac console is worth it to me, I don't mind the changes and am more likely to use the ship now. Having and escort that can use Lt Cmdr and Lt sci is pretty huge, especially with enhanced battlecloak. This is an enhance battlecloaking vet ship and people complain about it. lol
What they thought they were getting is on them. It's been clearly stated that the stats on the ships are subject to change. They changed. They've changed several times since the packs went on sale. They're likely to change again.
People paid for a ship. A ship that won't exist until LoR launches. Everything up until then...is subject to change.
What's so difficult to understand about that?
The Mustang example was a bad example. The different models actually exist. The T'varo doesn't exist yet...it hasn't gone into production. There's no bait an switch.
You could probably get your money back if you tried to reverse the charges to your credit card or filed a lawsuit in small claims court, but to be honest, it is difficult for me to have any sympathy for you.
During the closed beta, most of the ships did not even have costumes on the tribble server and it was clearly stated in many places that the stats were not finalized. Also, the ships are part of a pack, not an individual ship, so one has to wonder the true purpose of your thread since it is clear that you were not intending to buy one specific ship with specific stats, a ship which could be purchased more cheaply after launch.
To all you buyers: Be wary of your purchases. That $250 pack sure looks like a great deal, but it comes with the risk of the game changing in a way that you just can?t stand. Can you really afford to spend that much on a game you stand a good chance of abandoning later due to developer mismanagement?
There was certainly no bait-and-switch involved. It wasn't like they actually advertised the ship as having those early stats. You chose to buy, based on what you heard was on Tribble, which is a testbed, that was subject to change. Not to mention Tribble testers were only supposed to test up to level 21 so far, which certainly doesn't cover this ship! Being subject to change is the exact reason I decided not to buy.
The popular comparison is ordering say, a Mustang, and suddenly being told you're only getting the V6 version for the same money.
Not exactly. It's more of a case of hearing a company testing a new prototype Mustang 2013, that is being tested with a V8 super-engine. Since they're offering a pre-order discount, you decide to buy early, because you heard from the test drivers that it has a V8. Note that the company didn't say it would come out with a V8! However, later on, they run into problems with the V8 and cut it down to a V6. Now, you hear about that, and you want to cancel your pre-order. That's the actual comparison.
So they adjusted pretty much every ship, 'cept the d'dex.
They nerfed the T'varo (And buffed the Dhelan, granted). And added the two pieces of the Ha'apex as an escort and a science vessel.
However, in the process, they severely reduced the value of the Starter pack I (And a few others in my fleet) purchased BECAUSE we'd seen the stats of the T'Varo on tribble. Even the fleet officer who bought the Legacy pack is considering asking for a refund.
The popular comparison is ordering say, a Mustang, and suddenly being told you're only getting the V6 version for the same money.
These stats were shown to the testers and thusly thrown about, and several orders were placed after seeing them, not sight-unseen as the packs roughly were up to this point. I'm willing to bet a lot people bought the starter pack knowing they'd get a Fleet Module discount on the awesome T'Varo.
Now those who have the starter pack, if they want a 5-tac escort, will have to pay FULL fleet module cost (or purchase cost of the base Dhelan retro +1 module) to get the Fleet Dhelan, or full FM cost with no discount for the Fleet Ha'Feh as it has no counterpart, on top of it needing a Tier 5 shipyard. Even those who bought the Legacy Pack will be paying full module cost for this (frankly, fairly ugly) ship.
Quite frankly, this reeks of a bait-and-switch money grab, and personally, I am not accepting it. I have submitted a support ticket asking for either the changes to be reverted, or a refund on my starter pack.
Silly of anyone to preorder based on stats seen on a TEST server. Especially since the devs have been said ALL ALONG that the ships are NOT finished and the stats are subject to change.
It may be a nerf from a Fed escort pilot point of view, but from a KDF B'rel pilot perspective
this ship is perfect. I like the boff layout much more and the console layout is still almost as good, the better boff layout makes this tradeoff worth it. I can copy most of my B'rel builds on this ship and have 1 extra ensign boff ability, 1 more tac console, more hull at the cost of a some maneuverability and an eng console. This ship is excellent and well worth the buy for me now and before I wouldn't get it as I need a good boff layout more then a 5th tac console.
It's not entitlement. The OP simply wants to return the purchase and get their money back. They don't plan on using any of the items purchased. Since the expansion hasn't gone live yet, it should be a simple thing to allow for the return. It's like they haven't even opened the package.
It's not entitlement. The OP simply wants to return the purchase and get their money back. They don't plan on using any of the items purchased. Since the expansion hasn't gone live yet, it should be a simple thing to allow for the return. It's like they haven't even opened the package.
That's not entitlement. At all.
Were it as simple as that, it would have been a simple question they could have emailed customer service about...
When the Legacy and Starter Packs were announced, we had no ship stats whatsoever. Now they're in constant flux. One day player A is happy and player B rages, the next day it's the other way around.
It is a little inconvenient to sell items before their capabilities are known though.
Ok, yes. There is a sense of entitlement here. It's called being "entitled" to what you pay for, and what you thought you were getting when you paid the money. I understand the need to keep things balanced and all, but this isn't about that. It's about paying for one thing and then getting less than you bargained for.
Devs made very very clear that Tribble stats aren't final. If you buy something based on stats you are told not to expect to be the final stats, then you deserve to be out some money.
You aren't entitled to think something is so when you are specifically told its not so.
I understand your frustration. Unfortunately, it's just another in the long list of little annoyances that - when taken together as a whole - add up to major frustration when playing STO.
Crashing servers, changing ship specs to improve "some" ships while leaving other ships nerfed (Galaxy), charging for C-Store and Fleet ships that have known bugs that would be easy to fix, on that same note ignoring multiple requests from players for basic bug fixes that shouldn't take significant Dev time, making Tovan a mandatory BOff, nerfing the D'D in much the same way as the Galaxy, the complaints about the bugs that break battle cloak for KDF players, the list goes on.
All that being said, STO is the BEST solution of Trek fans who want to escape into the world of Trek. It isn't perfect, but it's the best thing we've got right now. We have every right to complain (particularly when we're spending money on the game) and hope Cryptic execs and devs listen and do something, but don't expect all our demands to be met overnight.
I just hope that the Devs realize it's a BAD IDEA to just blow off player complaints thinking we're just a bunch of overly passionate, whinny Trek fans.
As players get increasingly frustrated they move on to other games.
Cryptic and PWE: You can't generate good revenue from STO if your actions (and inaction) makes paying players leave.
In the immortal words of Captain Sisko: "It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong."
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
Comments
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
In some sense it would've been less aggravating if it were like a lottery... ship stats sight unseen until launch, caveat emptor if you paid. The website itself operated on this model, great! Then news floated out of Tribble.
Disclaimer aside, I can see why someone who went and got a Starter Pack feels misled.
I happened to have bought the Legacy Pack before the stats were shown off, so I am riding along as if I bought a lottery ticket. Don't always win ya know. There's also enough ships in a Legacy Pack that maybe you'll win in the end, on average.
So, +1 for the refund option here.
I hope so.
The fact that it was all still in testing is why I didnt buy any of it.
No garuntees it would be the same as when I bought it.
I would have thought it was common knowlage.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Pretty much this. If the T'Varo had shipped in it's current stats without any foreknowledge, I wouldn't have cared. But as I said, I bought the pack after seeing it on Tribble.
I realise I'm acting somewhat entitled, but frankly, I'm gonna let it stand.
It's a little different when you buy 1 ship and it ended up being something different in nature. Though I suppose we should all be glad it didn't end up being a Carrier instead of a Light Warbird,
Were you to take the entitlement from the PvP forums and add it up...still wouldn't come close to the entitlement found in your average PvE thread.
Twenty bucks (specifically referring to the Starter Pack, Legacy Pack aside)... is still a good bit of money. How would you feel if you bought a twenty dollar piece of hardware, and it did not work as expected? You return it and get a refund. Why should buying one piece of code, only to see that code changed after purchase, be any different?
T'Shara / Ten
Inara / Aurora
D'Rhai (Fed) / S'Elandrei (KDF)
People paid for a ship. A ship that won't exist until LoR launches. Everything up until then...is subject to change.
What's so difficult to understand about that?
The Mustang example was a bad example. The different models actually exist. The T'varo doesn't exist yet...it hasn't gone into production. There's no bait an switch.
During the closed beta, most of the ships did not even have costumes on the tribble server and it was clearly stated in many places that the stats were not finalized. Also, the ships are part of a pack, not an individual ship, so one has to wonder the true purpose of your thread since it is clear that you were not intending to buy one specific ship with specific stats, a ship which could be purchased more cheaply after launch.
if so I am not worried about a console in the slightest
http://www.gamefront.com/how-f2p-founders-packs-offer-great-deals-at-great-risk/3/
There was certainly no bait-and-switch involved. It wasn't like they actually advertised the ship as having those early stats. You chose to buy, based on what you heard was on Tribble, which is a testbed, that was subject to change. Not to mention Tribble testers were only supposed to test up to level 21 so far, which certainly doesn't cover this ship! Being subject to change is the exact reason I decided not to buy.
Not exactly. It's more of a case of hearing a company testing a new prototype Mustang 2013, that is being tested with a V8 super-engine. Since they're offering a pre-order discount, you decide to buy early, because you heard from the test drivers that it has a V8. Note that the company didn't say it would come out with a V8! However, later on, they run into problems with the V8 and cut it down to a V6. Now, you hear about that, and you want to cancel your pre-order. That's the actual comparison.
Silly of anyone to preorder based on stats seen on a TEST server. Especially since the devs have been said ALL ALONG that the ships are NOT finished and the stats are subject to change.
I mean you buy a ship for the visuals not the consoles
especially for a new faction
this ship is perfect. I like the boff layout much more and the console layout is still almost as good, the better boff layout makes this tradeoff worth it. I can copy most of my B'rel builds on this ship and have 1 extra ensign boff ability, 1 more tac console, more hull at the cost of a some maneuverability and an eng console. This ship is excellent and well worth the buy for me now and before I wouldn't get it as I need a good boff layout more then a 5th tac console.
It's not entitlement. The OP simply wants to return the purchase and get their money back. They don't plan on using any of the items purchased. Since the expansion hasn't gone live yet, it should be a simple thing to allow for the return. It's like they haven't even opened the package.
That's not entitlement. At all.
Were it as simple as that, it would have been a simple question they could have emailed customer service about...
...it wasn't that simple.
It is a little inconvenient to sell items before their capabilities are known though.
That's fine.
But it's still not entitlement, especially in the way the person I quoted was trying to mock the OP about.
Devs made very very clear that Tribble stats aren't final. If you buy something based on stats you are told not to expect to be the final stats, then you deserve to be out some money.
You aren't entitled to think something is so when you are specifically told its not so.
Crashing servers, changing ship specs to improve "some" ships while leaving other ships nerfed (Galaxy), charging for C-Store and Fleet ships that have known bugs that would be easy to fix, on that same note ignoring multiple requests from players for basic bug fixes that shouldn't take significant Dev time, making Tovan a mandatory BOff, nerfing the D'D in much the same way as the Galaxy, the complaints about the bugs that break battle cloak for KDF players, the list goes on.
All that being said, STO is the BEST solution of Trek fans who want to escape into the world of Trek. It isn't perfect, but it's the best thing we've got right now. We have every right to complain (particularly when we're spending money on the game) and hope Cryptic execs and devs listen and do something, but don't expect all our demands to be met overnight.
I just hope that the Devs realize it's a BAD IDEA to just blow off player complaints thinking we're just a bunch of overly passionate, whinny Trek fans.
As players get increasingly frustrated they move on to other games.
Cryptic and PWE: You can't generate good revenue from STO if your actions (and inaction) makes paying players leave.
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.