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Kumari OP? Or am I missing something?
cerealplayer
Member Posts: 214 Arc User
Hi all,
Disclaimer: I'm not attempting to start a flame war. I just came back to the game from a long hiatus, and I am honestly perplexed. I'm hoping people with more recent gaming experience can illuminate me on this question:
Why is the Kumari not totally OP? It seems to me that given it's 5 forward weapons, and 5 tact consoles, and it's BOFF layout, it can dispense an amount of damage way above and beyond any other ship out there. I don't see anything coming even close on KDF side; and from what I'm seeing so far, not even Romulans (the new and shiny "faction") have anything similar. Regardless, I think it's the Fed players that ought to be most displeased: I know I didn't start playing STO thinking "Oooh, I really want to fly an Andorian ship no one had ever heard about". I can imagine many players who would rather fly a Defiant class would feel upset at being "pigeonholed" into this ship to remain competitive.
The reason I'm most perplexed is that, every time I've seen new c-store ships introduced in the past, they've had something that made them not obviously superior to everything else. The closest example I can think of is the Odyssey. It was better in many ways to all other cruisers. It's low turn rate offsets many of these advantages. For example, a Tac/Cruiser captain would probably be better off on an Excelsior retrofit. In other words, the Odyssey did not make other cruisers obsolete.
What am I missing? How does the Kumari not make other escorts (and, by extension, in this new "DPS is king age", every other ship) obsolete? What am I forgetting to consider that balances it out?
Disclaimer: I'm not attempting to start a flame war. I just came back to the game from a long hiatus, and I am honestly perplexed. I'm hoping people with more recent gaming experience can illuminate me on this question:
Why is the Kumari not totally OP? It seems to me that given it's 5 forward weapons, and 5 tact consoles, and it's BOFF layout, it can dispense an amount of damage way above and beyond any other ship out there. I don't see anything coming even close on KDF side; and from what I'm seeing so far, not even Romulans (the new and shiny "faction") have anything similar. Regardless, I think it's the Fed players that ought to be most displeased: I know I didn't start playing STO thinking "Oooh, I really want to fly an Andorian ship no one had ever heard about". I can imagine many players who would rather fly a Defiant class would feel upset at being "pigeonholed" into this ship to remain competitive.
The reason I'm most perplexed is that, every time I've seen new c-store ships introduced in the past, they've had something that made them not obviously superior to everything else. The closest example I can think of is the Odyssey. It was better in many ways to all other cruisers. It's low turn rate offsets many of these advantages. For example, a Tac/Cruiser captain would probably be better off on an Excelsior retrofit. In other words, the Odyssey did not make other cruisers obsolete.
What am I missing? How does the Kumari not make other escorts (and, by extension, in this new "DPS is king age", every other ship) obsolete? What am I forgetting to consider that balances it out?
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lol.
I'm sorry, I'm not following you. I don't think I ever said that I am "only interested in PvE". As I mentioned earlier, I just came back to the game (mostly due to Romulan-curiosity) and I'm still looking around to see what I want to do.
But let's assume for a second you're right in your assumption. So what then? Are you suggesting that I should just fly around in elite STFs in my T2 Connie? I guess that would be all nice and well for those who want to RP being Kirk. However, in most MMOs I've played, people get upset (perhaps understandably so) in "instanced dungeons" when a team-member does not pull their weight. Are you saying that this is not a concern in STO? Have I stumbled (back) onto the only MMO in the market where people don't care at all about PvE performance? I guess that would be, well, quite liberating actually.
Sorry, I have to run off now, I need to go AFK in some Elite STFs while my team members do all the work, so I can get some purples.
You're not pigeonholed into this ship to remain competitive. The Kumari has disadvantages. So it's a tradeoff for the firepower.
You've missed the tradeoffs.
The Kumari class may be a glass cannon, but the Khyzan and Charal are anything but.
EncDPS race is srs bsns ldo
Consider the Armitage: yes, it hasn't 5 fore weapons, but if equipped with danube runabouts it can really obliterate the kumari.
also, kumaris haven't their fleet version, so even having 10 console slot, they can't have the hull and shield modifier buff.
The Jem Bug is OP.
s**t it hould be a T1 ship:
35.000 Base Hull
1.0 Shield Mod
5 Tac Slot
22 Base Turn Rate
0.22 Impulse Modifier
CAN ANYONE TELL ME HOW A T1 SHIP COULD HAVE A STRONGER HULL THAN A T5 SHIP ?
Man ... the Kumari has the only advantage of having 5 fore weapons, and even this way, I believe he Jem Bug is stronger.
This gets a little more vexing when you include the fact that this advertised glass cannon has more HP than the patrol escort and the advanced escort, to say nothing of the T5 defiant or Prometheus. (32k on the Kumari, 31k on the patrol escort/advanced escort, 30k on the tactical escort refit and the multi-vector advanced escort).
The Charal and Khyzon can replicate the Boff seating on the patrol escort (who's still supposed to be the tough one). The Charal even gets more engineering consoles than the patrol escort, making her the toughest escort in the Federation arsenal (not counting lockbox ships, at least). And she gets to keep her extra 124 base DPS from the turret-to-cannon swap.
(And the Kumari is nothing like a BoP, which has 4 fore, 2 aft, and actually is made of tinfoil. Nothing the KDF has is equipped with 5 fore weapons or 5 tac consoles, unless you want to count lockbox ships.)
... Wow. That was a bit of a tirade. I musta' gotten cross when I started looking stuff up. Erm, sorry if this was a little rant-ish. I'm feeling better, now, though...
-- Winston Churchill
Okay, this popped up while I was typing-- sorry to double-post like this.
Yes, the Jem'hadar Attack Ship is utterly broken. That doesn't make the Kumari line not OP.
Even if we declare that an Armatage with danubes can beat a Kumari (I'm kinda' sure about a Charal, but whatevs), that doesn't make it not OP.
An Over-Powered ship is more powerful than it should be by a substantial degree-- that doesn't necessarily equal invincible. The Kumari line makes most other Federation escorts obsolete by being just better than them. That makes it Over-Powered.
The Tactical Escort Retrofit, Multi-Vector Advanced Escort, and Armitage all carry costs for their benefits, or at least have different BOff seating to slightly alter what they can do. The Charal and Khyzon do not have this issue. (... unless you're crazy about mines, I guess...?)
This is a key part of what makes them OP.
I will give the Kumari line this, though-- it's not OMGWTFPTWBYOB-broken like the JHAS. It's OP, but not so much that you don't see any other escorts out there. Though that's hardly a ringing endorsement of its balance, either.
-- Winston Churchill
That's kind of like asserting that Broccoli is a dessert, and then going on to complain how unfair it is that a dessert can be healthier than iceberg lettuce.
I can only assume that, with the Kumari, developers wanted to give an alternative to JHAS.
There is absolutely nothing that makes other escort better than the JHAS, it is better in everything.
Kumari ships have 5 fore weapons which can worth its choice.
the Armitage got the Hangar bay that is very useful in PVPs.
AND HAVE ITS FLEET VERSION.
Kumari ships haven't their fleet version
trust me, it is not OP.
it is just a ship that worth its price
I am quoting myself. To really underscore the discussion. You are NOT pigeonholed into a Kumari to remain competitive. If you want to fly a defiant, one of them fleet patrol escorts or MVAE, or a bug ship, or an Armitage ... you are still very very competitive.
Escorts come in a lot of flavors right now and they're all competitive. The Kumari does not blow them out of the water.
It's not like, say, a Rear Admiral Star Cruiser versus a Fleet Excelsior while measuring DPS output in an Elite STF.
It's far more like asking Counselor Troi WHICH chocolate she likes better.
I'm tempted to get one to replace my Fleet Defiant because I've seen a Kumari absorb alot of punishment and that extra DHC puts it over the top in dps.
But, I'm expecting a nerf for it because it's just too OP.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
The JHAS should not be your yardstick for measuring game balance.
It is, and has always been, the most broken thing in STO from the moment it fell out of the first run of lockboxes. If you ever have to compare something to the JHAS to make it look reasonable, you've got a problem.
C-Store ships are something that, in original intent, are things that require money to acquire. Therefore, in order to avoid as best as possible the undesirable label of "pay to win," C-Store ships should be measured against their base models (in this case the Patrol Escort and Advanced Escort) and come out slightly better on the whole, but different in some essential portion of its function, or at least have some form of substantial trade-off to consider (lower HP and lack of an ensign eng/sci Boff slot on the T5 Defiant, poorer handling and reduced tactical Boff support on the Armitage, lack of a Commander tactical station on the T5 Prometheus, etc.).
This has been the general pattern for all C-Store ships.
This is not the case with the Charal and Khyzon. Those are the members of the Kumari line that I have a problem with.*
*: Despite it having superior hull HP to any other Federation escort, the tactical Kumari's BOff stations do indeed make it appear to be a uniquely murderous and vulnerable ship with real drawbacks. Believe it or not, I do not have a problem with with line's namesake ship. I reserve my scorn the the Charal and, to a slightly lesser extent, the Khyzon. But mostly the Charal.
-- Winston Churchill
Kumari-line escorts, like the lockbox ships, are designed to be approximately Fleet-quality by themselves, and they are, for the most part (the Kumari-line does have reduced hull and shields compared to most Fleet escorts, however).
The Kumari is really nasty. You lose 2 heals, but you gain 5 forward mounted weapons with 5 tactical consoles. You are a glass cannon but with embassy consoles and a horrible PvE engine, you really don't need much defense. I've watched a guild mate run Hive not die once and rack up something like 12 million damage.
When you have a clear advantage in 1 particular field (dps) with no possibility of an equal, that is what I classify as OP.
PvP I'm sure is different, but in PvE this ship is OP.
Worst part with the design is that you aren't restricted to phaser weapons, which give you no benefit in PvE. You actually have better damage by not running the consoles and switching to Plasma or Disruptors.
I love the ship, bought myself a fleet mvae and have been eyeing up a recluse or dread now for over a month, but I just can't give up the 5 forward weapon options that this line of ships have. Very very fun if you like to kill things, and kill them fast.
The kumari arent op, no more then the JHAS is. I run stuff with my fleet mates who run JHAS and they are very very good in them. Im equal to them in damage and it actually surprised them as most kumari dont reach their same amount of dmg in an STF.
And if you saw someone do 12million dmg then my hat is off to them cause thats basicly killing everything solo. And while the kumari can take a beating it still dies like any other escort. Its no tougher then any other escort. Good ship but not some unstoppable killing machine sent from hell to wreck all faces.
A good defiant should easily match an average kumari in dmg. Same with a JHAS. I use mine in pvp and do well but my fleet pvps together so its group effort, not just my ship.
When you need to compare something to the JHAS to defend its game balance, you have a problem.
Now, let me reiterate that the Kumari-Kumari does have a downside-- it has less eng/sci support than other escorts. Sure, it has more hull HP and 3 engineering consoles, but it has sacrificed something.*
The Kumari-Charal does not. Kumari-Charal is, in fact, only out-classed among escorts in durability by some fleet-available escorts and by the gorram bugship. Yet it gets to keep its five forward weapons, boosting its baseline DPS by at least 124, before factoring in consoles, weapon power beyond 50, C:RF, etc.
Compare that to any C-store escort (all of whom, remember, are more fragile than the Kumari-Charal) and it's hard to see how that's not OP.
*: Not, y'know, a lot, but if you're in PvP every little bit helps, I guess.
-- Winston Churchill
I can compare it to the Armitage if you wish:
in PVPs: Armitage > Kumari
in PVEs: they are quite similar ... maybe kumaris are better, but not so much.
the Armitage has an Hangar and a Fleet version.
want to compare them ?
Fleet Armitage - Kumari
Hull: 35.200 - 32.000
Sh. Mod: 1 - 0.9
Impulse: 0.20 - 0.20
Turn: 12 - 16
ENG: 3 - 3/4/2
SCI: 3 - 2/2/4
TAC: 4 - 5/4/4
BOffs:
Cmd: Tac - Tac / Tac / Tac
Lt. Cmd: Eng - Tac / Tac / Tac
Lt1: Tac - Tac / Eng / Sci
Lt2: Sci - Univ / Univ / Univ
Ens: Tac - Eng / Eng / Eng
FORE WEAPONS: 4 - 5
AFT WEAPONS: 3 - 2
HANGAR: 1 - 0
are you still convinced that kumari is OP ?
Although, if we were to compare the Kumari-Charal to, say, the Fleet Escort Refit (a slightly more apples-to-apples comparison in terms of battlefield role), you'd find that the FER has the advantage of one point of turn rate on the Charal (for a 6.5% better turn rate, give or take), and gets to keep an extra 9% of its shield's base HP pool (so, 500 HP give or take on a Mk X shield, or to use a more extreme case, an extra 760-ish HP from a Mk XII KHG covariant shield).
The Charal, on the other hand gets to swap a turret for a DHC (netting it an extra 112 DPS using Mk X weapons, or to use a more reasonable case, an extra 130 more DPS for a Mk XII weapon with a single [Dmg] suffix; either way, this is before multipliers for weapon power above 50, either ship's 4 tac consoles, etc.). The Charal also gets an extra 1,640 hull HP, and can choose to turn the FER's Lieutenant science station into whatever it wants, should it not be fond of science support.**
The FER's edge in shields is to each face, so, (barring shield-draining attacks such as Shield Neutralizers, NPC Tachyon Beams*, and tetryon weaponry) it has the potential to be as durable as the Charal, maybe slightly more so (like, an extra 1 second-to-live) if it uses ultra-high-HP shields, but it is utterly outclassed by the Charal's damage.
And, again, this is a fleet ship. Yes, only a Tier II fleet ship this time, but that's still a category above C-Store ships (which is why you have the sub-set of fleet-version C-store ships).
So, in summary, yes, I still think the Kumari-Charal is quite OP*.
*: Actually, it's a fleet version of a C-store ship, so maybe it's more like comparing the T3 Heavy Escort Refit to the T4 Tactical Escort Refit?
*: Not that that's likely to do its resilience any big favors, but *shrugs* it can.
*: The Charal also has an extra 35 crew, but, pff, whatever.
*: When NPCs, such as Borg Spheres, use Tachyon Beams, they seem to actually do something, so I'm only bringing them up.
*: And I'm still singling it out, specifically, because my problem is not so much with the Kumari-Kumari.
-- Winston Churchill
I mean the problem is that Damage Dishing is rather King and this thing can get an Additional Accuracy bonus across the board and an absolutely DEADLY shield stripping attack to make sure its DPS counts... Where is the trade-off for that? If Science Abilities were not nerfed into oblivion and engineering abilities mattered more then there would be some trade-offs worth talking about but neither is true. (Talking BOFFs not Captain here)
Also: You are wrong about the Odyssey... Its slow turn is not a trade-off... Just pop off your Saucer and you are blatantly superior to any other Fed Cruiser if set up properly. The Vesta is so OP to all other Science Vessels as to make your head spin with the only limiting factor being that it is a bit of a nightmare to fly properly.
So I guess the gist here is this: Generally if you are paying 50 bucks for a ship pack... Expect some honest to goodness Pay to Win if you can handle the ship you just bought.
I know I didn't start playing STO thinking "Oooh, I really want to fly an Andorian ship no one had ever heard about". I can imagine many players who would rather fly a Defiant class would feel upset at being "pigeonholed" into this ship to remain competitive.
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so true. I looked forward to the defiant. it was the reason I chose a Tac char. now im in a Andorian ship. the bridge I purchased for the defiant.....useless. I miss my defiant, I bring it out time to time but its not the same and I go back. I would love to see a retrofit that would make the defiant the ship we got to know in ds9 or in the open of first contact. a mini battle ship. not an Andorian ship that make the defiant useless, unless you just roll play. great thread!
You could do just fine in a Fleet Defiant. It has 5 tac consoles and really pumps out the Deeps. You can definitely contribute in PvP and PvE in a fleet Defiant. If that's the ship you prefer, fly it. You'll be A-OK in that ship.
Got to compare apples to apples, the same pilot will do more damage in a kumari than any other ship. Comparing a good pilot to an average pilot isn't going to accomplish anything.
The JHAS has always been considered OP, but even the JHAS can't out dps the kumari with 5 forward weapons and 5 tact consoles.
I am in no way stating that the Kumari is a better ship than the JHAS, all I'm stating is, the kumari as a ship, has no equal in regards to damage output, and that's what makes it OP, imo
was just waiting for a Armitage post to show up lol
Yep, I sure am. I own both ships along with the JHAS (jem attack ship), Fleet Advanced Escort with MVAE console as well as All defiants etc. The bug/armitage/defiants are no match for my Kumari in raw DPSin PvE. When I say DPS im not talking about just burst DPS, were talking what matters; Sustained longevity DPS. With my Kumari that hovers around 10.5kish give or take. My bug only averages around 8-9kish, Armitage around 6kish. Kumari is set up for maximus DPS in STO with Embassy plasma consoles, 5 mk 12 purple tac consoles. The romulan singularity 2 pcs as well as Romulan Plasma weps with Disruptor proc (that gives up to -140 plasma resists as seen in tests with screenshots). Armitage is a good ship for utility (which is more or less not needed in almost all STO PvE) but its far from anything OP is concerned and sure as hell wont be any top DPS'er on the team against anyone with a respectable escort and knows what they are doing. You're lacking a LtC Tac as well as teh 5th tac console (though the 5th console is plagued by massive diminishing returns it still gives +75 Dps on base which adds up quite a bit overtime, especially as a tac officer.). I cannot speak for the Fleet Variant of the Armi (which only gives 1 extra sci console and +10% more Hull/Shield aka not that great), but you still missing a key element, a 5th Fore wep that makes quite a difference. On top of missing the extra LtC tac station and obviously the 5th tac console, which can also serve as a torp booster and still buffing your energy weps with 4 consoles.
The Bug or JHAS as some coin it now, is hands down the most superior when it comes to PvP. If anyone doubts that, I'm always free to tangle in game. DnaAngel@DnaAngel
The Kyzon version is hands down top dog for survive ability in the Andorians. Science is where the heals and survive ability is at and you get the most of that from Khyzon. Not to mention you can stack up to 4 threat reducing consoles to add even more survive ability.
Of all the escorts I've played, (Charal, Chel Grett, Prometheus and fleet Saber, as well as KDF ships), I'll confess its my favourite in terms of play style and aesthetics.
I always really liked the andorians in the tv show, and have wanted to fly an andorian ship since joining the game over a year ago.
But I dont think its OP. Yes, the increased DPS of a DHC over a turret is substantial, whilst it's on target. But a turret is on target 100% of the time, whilst the DHC is not. In pve its easy to stay on target true (but then PVE is mostly a snore now anyway. could do most of it in a tier 4 or maybe even tier 3 ship for a laugh), but in pvp it can be a real challenge to keep an enemy in the tiny 45 degree frontal arc.
And if an enemy gets behind you, all youve got to fend them off is a single turret and cutting beam. Compared to the Armitage or the Chell Grett, youre still losing shield HP, BOFF versatility and you have no room for control skills.
Speaking of the Chel Grett, which is the ship I use KDF side, it has room for a whole extra turret as well as having awesome BOFF seating and enhaned durability. Do the extra 2 turrets equal 1 extra DHC burst damage wise (though the power drain might be more of an issue)? The same goes for the Armitage: surely the DPS is made up through the combo of 1 extra turret and an extra hangar?
This is magnified since both ships tend to stay alive longer. They have lower burst damage and are less maneavarable, but are more versatile, can hang longer in a fight and arent splatted instantly if someone gets behind them.
Both ships also have more flexible BOFF slots for things like Gravity Well or EWP.
Compared to widely available KDF ships, it doesnt have a battle cloak and it has far inferior maneuverability compared to a BoP. Thats not to mention all uni BOFF seating.
I cant really compare the Charal to a Defiant or fleet patrol, having never tried them myself.
Its about equal viability wise to other top tier escorts (putting the clearly inferior Sabre and awful Aquarius to one) and still lacking compared to a JHAS.
I think a bigger problem power wise in game is that we escort players have too large an edge over cruisers and science ships (except the Vesta, which is only good in PVP when played like a pseudo escort). The standard DHC and Turret combo might be more OP than anything else.
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