Tholians overpowered

johhanne · April 2013

Hi,

I was playing the mission where I was searching for New Romulus and on Dewa III - towards the end I had to fight Tholians. All was going well until a commander appeared flanked by lieutenants and I literally died about 10 times.

For the level 8 I was at the time, with mark 1 kit, a green mark 2 weapon and still one bridge officer without armour - all I can say is my BOs were dead in seconds and I followed shortly after.

This does need rebalancing. No enemies before or after were this hard.

Jo

rpg4ever · April 2013

I agree, I too had more or less the same issue, only reason i was able to complete the mission was after dieing about half a dozen times, it glitched and acted like i had defeated the tholian.

morkargh117 · April 2013

I only died once doing this, finished them off the second time. I thought it was challenging but not too difficult, maybe have it with just 1 commander and a lieutenant, instead of 2 lieutenants...or keep it as is.

gpgtx · April 2013

as long as you stay at range and send the boffs in as meat shields it's not too bad

crownvic2door · April 2013

Remember to upgrade your weapons with whatever drops you get, that what I did and I managed to run through the mission without any major issues, take advantage of your cloak...Fight like a Romulan! ATTACK, hide, heal, ATTACK, hide, heal...rinse and repeat till clean.

dalolorn · April 2013

Known issue.

All you can do about it right now is lots of respawns, playing on normal, and BEING CAREFUL. And healing, of course!

vitzh · April 2013

I only died once, but that was only because shooter keybinds were broken and I couldn't chain my powers correctly. They are actually a bit of a challenge but certainly not overpowered. If you flank, aim, crouch and crit they die pretty easily.

fllyraen · April 2013

Focus fire and kill the lieutenants before working on the commander, and you can clear it semi afk in rpg mode.

naevius · April 2013

Get the Piercing Plasma rifles, they are way OP. Keep moving, and use the ruins as cover to prevent all the Tholians from hitting you at once.

Don't use shooter mode.

tenkari · April 2013

as said before, its definitely a lot easier to focus on the lt.'s then take out the commander.

borticuscryptic · April 2013

We're turning off the Commander's Proton Mine in an upcoming build, as it was found to be too frequently one-shotting low-level characters on the Dewa III map. Other than that ability though, there's not much going on with these critters.

Is there anything in particular that they do that you're having a hard time overcoming? Remember that Tholians have a tendency to Flank you and your boffs. Clever use of movement and knockbacks can help offset this tactic.

futurepastnow · April 2013

They are fast little buggers. And they deal radiation damage, which I think most armors don't resist.

I'd pack along a science officer with medical tricorder for heals and another with electro-gravitic to root and slow them. The Commander and Captain are tough enemies, but no more so at low levels than a Swordmaster or Dahar Master.

Make sure you're making use of your captain and kit abilities, and grab a space shotgun (pulsewave). Target the Commander and hit "Y" so your boffs focus-attack him, then clean out his weaker minions yourself while they're fighting.

voyagerfan9751 · April 2013

futurepastnow wrote: »

They are fast little buggers. And they deal radiation damage, which I think most armors don't resist.

I'd pack along a science officer with medical tricorder for heals and another with electro-gravitic to root and slow them. The Commander and Captain are tough enemies, but no more so at low levels than a Swordmaster or Dahar Master.

Make sure you're making use of your captain and kit abilities, and grab a space shotgun (pulsewave). Target the Commander and hit "Y" so your boffs focus-attack him, then clean out his weaker minions yourself while they're fighting.

Interestingly enough, I do the opposite. Target the Weaklings then focus my attention on the commander. Though, I have't tried the "Y" thing. Probably will in another play through to see how I like it.

I also try to avoid the radial attack they do, granted with the close quarters that fight is in, it tends to be be difficult, but it can be done.

Between those two I don't think I died once fighting them. They are hard, but not impossible.

legendarylycan · April 2013

borticuscryptic wrote: »

Is there anything in particular that they do that you're having a hard time overcoming?

well, it probably doesn't help that most if not all tholian attacks deal radiation damage, which no shield has a resist modifier for, and the only armor to have any are EV suits...which you can't acquire at that point in the game

not for free, anyway

atatassault · April 2013

borticuscryptic wrote: »

We're turning off the Commander's Proton Mine in an upcoming build, as it was found to be too frequently one-shotting low-level characters on the Dewa III map. Other than that ability though, there's not much going on with these critters.

Is there anything in particular that they do that you're having a hard time overcoming? Remember that Tholians have a tendency to Flank you and your boffs. Clever use of movement and knockbacks can help offset this tactic.

The thing is, at such low level, you don't have access to whatever gear you want. You get what the missions give you, and what ever drops. A first time player will not have, or know what gear is useful for this encounter.

theolopboy · April 2013

Had fun and games with them last night, mostly it was the huge aoe radiation clouds, the Boffs just thought they were orange candy floss and kept running into it. May have been my imagination but I could have sworn all three of the last spawn generated them making for a huge death zone the Boffs loved to frolic in... until their faces melted.

I felt they were too large and too long at such a low level as I didn't seem to have the same issues facing off with them during the Rom rep missions on level 50 characters. Well not after you toned them down a little, I like em a challenge but the Tholians can an utter pain at times.

borticuscryptic · April 2013

I doubt the Radiation damage is really an issue here. At this level, you're using armors that only have around 10-15% Energy Damage Resistance Rating. Even with an enemy that ignores this type of resistance, it's not a big swing in potential damage output. And on top of that, the base damage output of Tholians is already somewhat reduced because it's of a type that ignores so many resistance types.

jeffel82 · April 2013

I dunno, I almost feel like the issue is that prior to this fight, the other combat content isn't challenging enough.

The Tholian Commander teamwiped me once, and I got him on the second attempt, though it wasn't pretty. To me, that's not too bad, but it's pretty jarring when it's your first major challenge.

In short, maybe everything else needs to be more difficult!

theolopboy · April 2013

I agree anything below sub-commander feels like a push over up til then but I wiped 4 times with a science toon (please can I have any kit that isn't the rubbish sonic doodad as the kit reward from the station locker). I admit I'm not the worlds best player by a long chalk but I've played long enough that I felt the experience was out of kilter.

Anyway thanks for the feedback borticus, I dare say I'll be bringing through a second Rom toon through tribble once I've hit the current mission ends so I'll pay attention next time I fight the spiders

legendarylycan · April 2013

borticuscryptic wrote: »

I doubt the Radiation damage is really an issue here. At this level, you're using armors that only have around 10-15% Energy Damage Resistance Rating. Even with an enemy that ignores this type of resistance, it's not a big swing in potential damage output. And on top of that, the base damage output of Tholians is already somewhat reduced because it's of a type that ignores so many resistance types.

fair enough, and it's actually a good point, but something else occured to me as i was reading back over your initial post, specifically this line

borticuscryptic wrote: »

Remember that Tholians have a tendency to Flank you and your boffs. Clever use of movement and knockbacks can help offset this tactic.

it occured to me that, while those of us who have already dealt with tholians before would know this, when LoR goes live, there are going to be hundreds if not thousands of new players who barely know what flanking even is, let alone know that tholians use it so effectively

it would probably help those new players immensely to get some kind of notification about that as well as possible counters, maybe in the form of a contact pop-up from one of your Boffs detailing standard tholian tactics and how to best counter them...come to think of it, that would help for certain other enemies as well that players face for the first time, such as NPC D'Deridex warbirds with their combo tractor-viral-hyper-plasma attack that is often rather deadly, especially at lower levels and when a new player has no clue how to counter it

daemonheld · April 2013

futurepastnow wrote: »

They are fast little buggers. And they deal radiation damage, which I think most armors don't resist.

I'd pack along a science officer with medical tricorder for heals and another with electro-gravitic to root and slow them. The Commander and Captain are tough enemies, but no more so at low levels than a Swordmaster or Dahar Master.

Make sure you're making use of your captain and kit abilities, and grab a space shotgun (pulsewave). Target the Commander and hit "Y" so your boffs focus-attack him, then clean out his weaker minions yourself while they're fighting.

While a good suggestion, there is a bug currently, where you cannot switch your Boffs for away team missions. Clicking on them to assign, give an immediate crash to desktop.

(And yes, I bugged it.. as have a few others I am aware of...)

theolopboy · April 2013

Given this a few tries now and the most effective counter is to load up on the wide beam and piercing rifles (now those are gonna get hit with the nerf bat) and run to behind to the tholian's spawn point before they appear, let them run into the bowl which they will do if not aggro'd and then open up. The bowl seems to confuse the AI and they all just sit in the middle making the radiation AOE attack super effective if your BOffs are still down there.

So I can do the mission without losing a BOff but I still think the multiple AOE radiation attacks need a looking at.

nicha0 · April 2013

The commanders are a good challenge, for low level players they could get overwhelmed but its not going to be impossible. The captains with their one hit kill AoE for those even in the best gear.. is another story, when they wipe out 3 Boffs in one hit, you are going to go down too, its just simple numbers.

One thing STO does extremely poorly is teaching players how to play, in fact its probably the worst MMO I've ever seen for this. They'll tell you advanced tactics when you are still learning to move and that gets lost forever. As a result you almost never ever see players crouching, flanking, exploiting and ground abilities are pretty poorly used too, but they don't really understand how to use them. Nor do they understand why they die constantly. How many players understand that your dodge skill doesn't actually dodge?

The game desperately needs to shore up weak players, the tutorials stop way way too soon, levels 1-50 is like a tutorial really, but why the learning stops so early is beyond me. I'd almost like to see holographic training simulations given to you by the appropiate faction.

You get introduced to tholians, which officer would go in blind? It doesn't seem intelligent, but its what we do. I'm sure any military would brief you, and in the future run you through simulations, in which the basics of crouch, aim, expose, exploit, flank, buffs could be reviewed. You need to put these things in peoples heads over and over and over and over.

dareau · April 2013

borticuscryptic wrote: »

We're turning off the Commander's Proton Mine in an upcoming build, as it was found to be too frequently one-shotting low-level characters on the Dewa III map. Other than that ability though, there's not much going on with these critters.

Is there anything in particular that they do that you're having a hard time overcoming? Remember that Tholians have a tendency to Flank you and your boffs. Clever use of movement and knockbacks can help offset this tactic.

borticuscryptic wrote: »

I doubt the Radiation damage is really an issue here. At this level, you're using armors that only have around 10-15% Energy Damage Resistance Rating. Even with an enemy that ignores this type of resistance, it's not a big swing in potential damage output. And on top of that, the base damage output of Tholians is already somewhat reduced because it's of a type that ignores so many resistance types.

Proton Mines? That sure explains an awful lot.

Both for this battle and the one(s) where you meet Commanders in the caves during the Reputation missions...

I was wondering what was up with those Commanders, especially during the battle to save the power station - as they were regularly wiping most of my team if they didn't stay off the central platform. In that battle, with the Commanders, their 2-3 Lt. and handful of ensigns it was impossible to see the mines going off. Heck, on Taw Dewa III as a Rommie I didn't see the mines until the second to last one that the Commander plopped right on the rock I was using for cover, and when I saw it I didn't have enough time to get the heck out of dodge...

Since, IIRC, Proton is (like radiation) a big "no resistances on ground" damage type, and the damages should scale with level, the fact that Proton mines are wiping teams everywhere seem to indicate that mine base damage is OP, not the mines themselves...

If the Tholians picked Proton to abuse those who throw Devidian phase shift pylons everywhere (remember, you have a -400% proton resistance in that field), then cool. Let those mines one-shot them... :P But for those of us who don't abuse pylon fields, we shouldn't be getting OHKed by these mines...

pantsmaster916 · April 2013

dareau wrote: »

Proton Mines? That sure explains an awful lot.

Blah. Blah. Blah.

You seem to have missed the part, from the quote that YOU quoted, where he said they were turning the mines off.

What's the text equivalent of "likes to hear himself speak"?

brigadooom · April 2013

It's actually a decent and fun fight, stay at range and use the pillars for cover while your abilities are on CD. Flank them with your boffs.

guriphu · April 2013

The oneshot-potential of the proton mine is an issue, since it can kill you from full or near-full even if you Dodge, and at level 8 there's no other form of spike-damage mitigation available. If it is removed, scaled down in damage, or made easier to evade, I don't think there will be a big problem with this encounter. Maybe it could be replaced with an orbital strike: dangerous, but easy to see coming and avoid.

abaddon653 · April 2013

Actually this would be a good time to teach people about flanking and Boff positioning. The first time I was overwhelmed, was not ready for the Tholian smack down, made the tedious mission more interesting.

Second time I went in there I positioned my boffs along the perimeter of the "bowl" and it turned into a Tholian soup. To bad I forgot my crackers. But yes this is the perfect time to teach the newbies and the thick headed players.

trygvar13 · April 2013

I've only had problem with this mission when playing with a Tac officer. With Engineer and Sci I never even came close to dying. Weird

erei1 · April 2013

I think the main problem with Tholian comes from when they use BOTH the stasis field and the mine. You can see the mine, but you are in stasis and can't do anything about it. You basically know you'll die, and just wait for it to happen.
I know we can give orders to the BOFF, so they attack the mine/stasis drone, but if you are not used to it, you'll probably die before they finish destroying the mine.

I know you will remove the mine for the low lvl commander, and it's fine. I'm sure it will be enough. But for the high level commander, can you make sure they don't use stasis and mine in the same time ? Or maybe stasis a BOFF instead of always the player ?

abaddon653 · April 2013

trygvar13 wrote: »

I've only had problem with this mission when playing with a Tac officer. With Engineer and Sci I never even came close to dying. Weird

It's all the heals and debuffs.

Tholians overpowered

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