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Why STO PVP tournaments fail
naz4
Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
I am really sad about the efforts people put into trying to get a tournament started and it goes nowhere.
Just been thinking about why this happens and here is my humble opinion on it.
Complexity of rules - Yup, thats it. Nothing else.
So this is what i would suggest to CSI or TFS to really kickstart your tournaments:
Only ban the known stuff that is broke or vastly overpowered:
Dkora EMP burst
Boarding parties with an uncurable cooldown bug
Grav pulse
Drain builds
Danubes
Limiting Aceton assimilator numbers
Arguably the cluster torpedo because of the chain crit issue
Arguably the doffs used with scramble sensors
Dont bother limiting / banning anything else. Not many have the patience or the will to strip builds down to be tournament compliant so therefore you gimp the success of the tournament before it starts.
Pandas would be willing to host, but that in itself would gimp the tournament .....lol
I really do think and believe that a big PVE fleet should host it due to neutrality.
This way, there would be no "he said, she said BS" and we could just get on with the fun part: Blowing your opponents up
Just been thinking about why this happens and here is my humble opinion on it.
Complexity of rules - Yup, thats it. Nothing else.
So this is what i would suggest to CSI or TFS to really kickstart your tournaments:
Only ban the known stuff that is broke or vastly overpowered:
Dkora EMP burst
Boarding parties with an uncurable cooldown bug
Grav pulse
Drain builds
Danubes
Limiting Aceton assimilator numbers
Arguably the cluster torpedo because of the chain crit issue
Arguably the doffs used with scramble sensors
Dont bother limiting / banning anything else. Not many have the patience or the will to strip builds down to be tournament compliant so therefore you gimp the success of the tournament before it starts.
Pandas would be willing to host, but that in itself would gimp the tournament .....lol
I really do think and believe that a big PVE fleet should host it due to neutrality.
This way, there would be no "he said, she said BS" and we could just get on with the fun part: Blowing your opponents up
Post edited by naz4 on
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Commander level ships, level 6 white gear only, no consoles, no item slots. boffs unlimited. :P
I guess you dont know the bug about the dkora EMP then......
AOE subnuking effects a good idea with 20sec plus scrambles?
...no. I haven't seen it often enough to notice.
Premade vs premade matches have a lot bigger problems than AoE cooldown reduction.
that sounds like every one off "themed" event i host...
i hope you werent rolling your eyes at me -sad inquisitor- i just try to host things that are "rp"ish
Do you even Science Bro?
But authority requires power, and power cannot be taken only given. I have yet to see the community get over itself, push egos out of the way, and grant any person or group that authority. Honestly though that has more to do with the era we live in than anything else in my experience it is a very common problem everywhere.
You want a tornie to succeed? Get a few of the prominent fleet leaders together and have them nominate someone to become that authority. Said fleet leaders agree to abide by whatever rules that authority chooses if they like them personally or not. They should be allowed to give input and advise don't get me wrong, but they agree to be bound to those rules and play with them even if they hate them.
Look there is a reason why representative democracy (mostly) works and is a stable form of government compared to true democracy or I can't think of the other one but an organized anarchy. Bah I'll google it and edit later.
Sounds legitimate, unfortunately we all experienced in practice how something like this already ended up badly (I cant remember all the details).
Bringing together all the fleet leaders sounds diplomatic, democratic, or whatever you call it. And it all sounds very decent when they are here together on the same voice server.
Unfortunatly what happens next is that topics that has been discussed and agreed upon is being discussed internally in the relevant fleets, being twisted (Intentionally or unintentionally, that doesnt really matter), is being relayed back to other people and fleets, etc. you know where that is leading to.
PvE fleets can be a good idea, but they are often very 'RP/PvE oriented', totally have different views on PvP related aspects, often have some sort of strict internal structure (hierarchy) and I think that will bring us to a relatively strict tournament altogether.
I think alot of us are mature enough that one of the PvP fleets can organize such a tournament, and I'm pretty sure that most of us decent guys all know what abilities, consoles, etcetera are considered OP or bugged.
Hence, OP is not the same as annoying. I know tons of people that find something 'annoying' i.e. AMS and call it OP because of that, but mathematically speaking (Yep, at the end its all maths going on behind the scenes) its really not that OP especially because you give up a free console slot which (can be cleared in an instant) could just as well have been a passive Neutronium MK XII console that gives you a significant boost to your hull throughout the whole match.
There will always be differences of opinions though. But let the people decide if they want to participate in a tournament where only the most Bugged/Overpowered factors have been banned based on the opinions of the majority of the PvP community.
I'm pretty you can throw out a list of stuff thats OP and where most people will agree with. There you go, you got a tournament. Dont ban any setups, factions, classes, because none of that is OP. A decision to go with the ship, faction, team setup you prefer is open to anyone.
I can imagine people that dont have a cstore or pay2win ship are against these open rules, but come on. We are so far away from the introduction to the free to play model in STO now, if you don't want to open your pocket and want to play a game 100% free, just stay in Kerrat or Cap'n'Lulz.
Having that said, lockbox ships or any pay2win consoles have never been a guarantee for a win, not in a 1v1, not in a 5v5. I'm sorry in advance if you have never experienced it though, would be a bummer, yet I constantly see the same argument that this would always be the case, its simply not.
Yep, I will not deny that having two of the exact same setups, a bug versus a defiant, the bug will outclass the defiant. Granted, everyone can see that. (Excluding cloak dynamics) but lets be honest, you won't succeed in a tournament denying those ships (Except for the special cases, 'themed' tournaments etc lol mai kai) because nobody will join, so your only option is to allow. Sure, still a small bunch won't sign up, but the amount of people that won't join is much smaller.
What?
It's denial, imho.
What?
It's denial. People wanting STO to be something other than it is. But it is what it is.
STO is full of gimmicks. STO is full of RNG. STO is full of things that can be spammed (and much of that can cause performance degradation). STO is full of minor and major bugs. STO is full of unintended consequences arrived at by various combinations of abilities and gear. STO is full of extreme yo-yo mechanics. The list goes on and on, why STO in general is not the friendliest of games when it comes to trying to PvP.
People want it to be about skill. There's just too many things going on for it really to be about that. Oh, no doubt there's the skill involved in dealing with what STO is full of...ahem...but lots of folks want it to be more like a simple FPS.
And that's denial. Because that's not STO.
The longer the list of banned things, the more in denial the person is about the game they're playing.
Course, there's themed things - which I think folks would have to agree are different. They're themed - that's not the same as trying to remove things because one feels they ruin the PvP experience or reduce the skill involved or whatever... they're just themed. It's not a case of wishing something wasn't in the game, it's a case of pointing to the shows/movies and saying it just wasn't there.
The KT league worked fine as long as it's only limitations were "no more than three per captain type" (or was it "at least one of each"?) and the requirement to play only one character per player during the entire season. Those of us who experienced that golden age of tournaments just want to have it back.
Once additional rules came (banning the then top problems FAW and SS, and allowing a free "play whenever you want during a fixed week" match schedule instead of the previous fixed time on saturdays) and too many new fleets joined (that sometimes also refused to accept the ground/space mix style of the KT league), the league collapsed. This was not just because of the new rules, but also because the game changed in a way that made these rules "necessary".
What we need is that Cryptic finally understands that the current state of PVP is such that nobody in their right mind would really want to play in a completely unrestricted tournament where some teams want to win at all costs. Unfortunately their has been no sign so far that Cryptic understands this fundamental problem - and much less indication that they would be willing to actually address this issue.
Oh I did not mean at all that the fleets would gather and discuss to create the rules. Rather they would choose an authority that would create the rules they would all follow. Not a true democracy. Nor an oligarchy which isn't entirely accurate but is what currently exists sorta.
The Fleets would gather and say hey, that *insert person/fleet here* seems to have a firm grasp on things and seems to be unbiased, open minded, and mature. They then agree to abide by the terms determined by that person wither they like them or not. Hopeful both in the queue and in the tornie but that's really hoping for a lot.
Would it really be that difficult to find someone or a group that meets those criteria? You could even create a panel of say three where two must agree to have something banned. It's not like their is a great mystery as to what is broken OP, just the normal OP and OP if min/max pushed by a team that is the issue.
For that matter how much EC would I need to offer up as a prize to get atleast 4 teams fielded with the following rules?
1) No obviously bugged consoles (EMP Burst)
2) Limit 4 hanger pets
3) Limit 1 unique activatable console per console per team (meaning one can carry AMS, but not all 5 members can. You could have an AMS and a Iso on the same ship though)
4) Limit 1 unique weapon per weapon per team (as above)
I'd also say there are several posters on this boards that would foot the bill. maicake716, mimey2, thishorizon would make for a great tribunal so to speak I would think. DDIS, redricky, thissler are another three off the top of my head. Not to mention nearly anyone in this thread. Although fleet bias may get in the way.
But no one can really do it until a significant portion of the PvP community grants that authority to someone.
Danube Runabouts/Toron Shuttles only
No c-store consoles
Battery devices only
Huzah, a fair (but boring) tournament!
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
nothing personal, but really its no doffs thats the big one with my. ether no tech doffs or no damage control doffs, the builds don't function without them, they look obsurd without those doffs working thier magic. and energy type, weapons are a big investment, and wile i nearly always 'RP' with the correct faction weapons, there are exceptions.
i dont have any lower tier fed ships, but i guess i do on my kdf. heres my chance to double up on 2 AtD on this cruiser i guess, but wait that kdf doesn't use disruptor. so it all gets to be to much trouble
I can completely understand that , but in a way I think 'themed' matches are for that .
Plus as others have said , the list of banned things seem to follow either personal taste or a belief in an item's 'broken-ness' -- neither is often shared by everyone .
For example , my simple version of no-no's would be :
No Bug ships.
No pets .
* with an optional ban on more than 3 of the same Class of Captain per team -- so you don't face 5 Sci's or 5 Tac's
It's simple , easy , doable -- but ... I fully expect players w/pet builds or Bug ships to object .
** to make myself clear , the two no-no's I've selected are MY pet peeves in PVP , so I'm not making any un-biased statements here . :P
Instead it's my attempt to 'take back PVP to a point where it all went wrong' (IMHO) .
Hold onto that thought, Naz.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
thats why i dont like doffs for my themed events. they alone can sway a battle to one side by themselves.
my first themed event allowed them and it was killer, tier 1 ships using shield draining tractor doffs to completely drain the shields off another ship....
rediculous.
Do you even Science Bro?
Why not just make a tournament !
Who want to enter , enters who doesnt well bad for them... do you need PWE or Cryptic to Allow it? no...
Who is preventing from us players from making matches with the rules we want? no one...
Tell me guys how many matches have you done with your own rules? thousands...
So make a tournament for the interested fleet who agreeds good who doesnt agreed bad for them cya next time...
If cryptic doesnt want you guys to post on this forum well just make one for the tourny, theres so many free forums out there... and for a tourny its enough...
Federation :: Fleetless :: Klingon
Jorge Silva - Tac | Nayja - Sci | Jorge E. Silva - Eng
Jorge R. Silva - Tac (Romulan Fed)
Nayja K Silva - Sci | Vurg'jah - Tac
That right their is very interesting point. Why not. So maybe, what if we organize a tournament around say PvP bootcamp, where most everybody in the PvP community is already thinking about PvP. Perhaps maybe the day after, or perhaps in the off saturdays. Whatever it is, just make a repeatable tourney model that could be kicked off every saturday, and whoever shows up gets in for that week. And maybe we could rotate the host fleet, to make things interesting.
Why is that bud? Got a cunning plan?
Please dude....people who pvp dont need a "leader" we aint some elks club.Lacks authority? ill show you authority......(calms self)
leadership in OPVP? no thanks we do fine as we are.
OPVP!
maybe keep that in mind when creating a tourny?
make blanket black/white rules.
boom! there ya go.
Do you even Science Bro?