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STF Griefing

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  • thisisoverlordthisisoverlord Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Hence, the ALL wonderful INGORE Button. You won't be placed with players on that list.

    Actually from what I remember it is a known bug that the ignore list often fails to do it's job when it comes to public queues
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  • sirokksirokk Member Posts: 990 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Rather than voting, rating or kicking systems that would require a lot more coding (and bugs), just have the mission set so that it does not give you the rewards if you don't make any kills.

    There must be metrics being collected during a mission for each player: example, If Kills = 0 Then OmegaMarks=0, Dilithium=0 and BNP=0.

    You don't contribute, you don't get any rewards.

    To further discourage griefing, double the mission cooldown.
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  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    STO was much better off without these stupid Queues. You got a group and you knew who to not to invite. But these days, if you try to avoid them, you end up being the one punished in either having to tolerate a bad run or endure being locked out of the queue.


    It's also just as bad with the other Public Queued Events with AFKers and Moochers. Frankly, I'm getting tired of it and Cryptic needs to act.
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    To me, Vote to kick = Escorts Online, as every time my Vesta science vessel winds up lumped in with 4 Escorts do you honestly think they'll let me "tag along for the ride"?

    And if it's 3 votes = kick, and we all know most ESTFs can be completed with 3 good escorts, can you imagine what happens whenever a 3 escort group forms?

    On that note, is the problem with the AFKers really griefing/trolling, or is it a case of "since I've done hundreds of these and now need dozens more for the reputation system, why shouldn't I just AFK them and get credit?
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

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  • nileight1nileight1 Member Posts: 249 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    sirokk wrote: »
    Rather than voting, rating or kicking systems that would require a lot more coding (and bugs), just have the mission set so that it does not give you the rewards if you don't make any kills.

    There must be metrics being collected during a mission for each player: example, If Kills = 0 Then OmegaMarks=0, Dilithium=0 and BNP=0.

    You don't contribute, you don't get any rewards.

    To further discourage griefing, double the mission cooldown.

    Yeah.
    That way, anyone that focuses on healing gets screwed.

    Anyway, the easiest way to avoid the jerks is to make some friends.
    Do stf's with friends, fleetmates, and those on the elite stf channel.
    There's 6 billion people in the world.
    6 billion of them are jerks when they're protected by the anonymity of the internet.

    Also, quit whining about it in the chat channels.
    No one cares.
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I pug..and I know from experience that griefing idiots do exist in the game...hence why I have gone proactive and designed my nebula with a degree of cc and debuff, enough from experience to stymie a greifers influence long enough for support to arrive/the objective to be completed (hopefully)

    The trick I find to pugging is to build my ship as an 'all else fails' builld, performing the tasks the majority of cruisers/escorts cannot do - that way when it goes belly up, at least you have insurance against it because in pugs you should never expect much of your teamates, I find - a stance that has worked well

    So if you pug, why not try building not for pew pew, but for preventing the loss of the objective? you may find pugs a lot more palatable that way (and imo, a lot more involving)
  • eisaakazeisaakaz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    You know, another way to look at this is reward instead of punish.

    Right now the bonus times and optional rewards are....ummmm what is that phrase???.....umm oh yes, they are TRIBBLE! There is no incentive to get the optional. I don't even get mad anymore that they blow the rewards, I just get annoyed that they are wasting my time. So make the optionals a tad harder and boost their payout... trolls/griefers are more greedy than they are cruel.

    Eisaak
  • aarons9aarons9 Member Posts: 961
    edited March 2013
    the only way to fix it is to remove the cooldowns..
    if you get a bad team, you leave and start over..
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  • kyias1kyias1 Member Posts: 98 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I've not seen much of this, but if it's a recent event it's probably because people have gotten bored and decided to lodge a protest by being an TRIBBLE. Cryptic have pissed a lot of people off recently.

    So in protest, they try to make their fellow players miserable?

    Sounds like some winners right there. I don't see why we as a player base need to make EXCUSES for them. The behavior is unacceptable. It doesn't matter the "reasons."
  • rezkingrezking Member Posts: 1,109 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    pyryck wrote: »
    PUGs should be removed as a means to run an STF.

    Playing with the same people will make the grind that much more boooooooooring...
    NO to ARC
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  • lonnehartlonnehart Member Posts: 846 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    If only one of the "officials" in this game, whether it's a forum moderator or a dev woiuld secretly attend STFs and go through them. They themselves could then witness the griefer at work and would have the authority to take care of it. Or even better.. put in a way to record your STF sessions on vid to submit to whoever's in charge so they can see the griefer actions for themselves.
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  • dashuk2381dashuk2381 Member Posts: 230 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    eisaakaz wrote: »
    You know, another way to look at this is reward instead of punish.

    Right now the bonus times and optional rewards are....ummmm what is that phrase???.....umm oh yes, they are TRIBBLE! There is no incentive to get the optional. I don't even get mad anymore that they blow the rewards, I just get annoyed that they are wasting my time. So make the optionals a tad harder and boost their payout... trolls/griefers are more greedy than they are cruel.

    Eisaak

    I agree with this, honestly I don't care much if the optional is blown since the only thing I ever seem to get is a blue quality Mk X or XI mine launcher or turret or something completely useless to me that I just sell anyways.

    What bothers me more about STFs these days is everyone NEEDING on every single drop. I'm sure all those Vice Admirals with fully decked out Mk XII boats need that Mk IX green quality phaser array that just dropped, lol.
  • thisisoverlordthisisoverlord Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    kyias1 wrote: »
    So in protest, they try to make their fellow players miserable?

    Sounds like some winners right there. I don't see why we as a player base need to make EXCUSES for them. The behavior is unacceptable. It doesn't matter the "reasons."

    The point here is it's got nothing to do with the reasons, it's a psychological reaction some people have to that kind of thing, the opposite of the reaction I had to it which was to pretty much stop playing on a regular basis.
    lonnehart wrote: »
    If only one of the "officials" in this game, whether it's a forum moderator or a dev woiuld secretly attend STFs and go through them. They themselves could then witness the griefer at work and would have the authority to take care of it. Or even better.. put in a way to record your STF sessions on vid to submit to whoever's in charge so they can see the griefer actions for themselves.

    They barely have enough time as it is just to push out the "content" we get let alone get time to go through old bugs and issues... I really don't think they have the time or inclination to go through hours of video especially when it won't reward them financially.
    dashuk2381 wrote: »
    I agree with this, honestly I don't care much if the optional is blown since the only thing I ever seem to get is a blue quality Mk X or XI mine launcher or turret or something completely useless to me that I just sell anyways.

    What bothers me more about STFs these days is everyone NEEDING on every single drop. I'm sure all those Vice Admirals with fully decked out Mk XII boats need that Mk IX green quality phaser array that just dropped, lol.

    Ah, you see as far as I am concerned everyone should need on everything because the exchange is stupidly expensive and Season 7 introduced large EC sinks. I can totally understand why everyone does.
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  • elessymelessym Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    lonnehart wrote: »
    If only one of the "officials" in this game, whether it's a forum moderator or a dev woiuld secretly attend STFs and go through them. They themselves could then witness the griefer at work and would have the authority to take care of it. Or even better.. put in a way to record your STF sessions on vid to submit to whoever's in charge so they can see the griefer actions for themselves.

    I'll bet you any amount of money you like that there are devs who play PuG STFs.

    But devs probably don't have GM tools. The forum mods definitely don't.
    The point here is it's got nothing to do with the reasons, it's a psychopathic reaction some people have to that kind of thing,

    Changed for accuracy.
    "Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
  • thisisoverlordthisisoverlord Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    elessym wrote: »
    I'll bet you any amount of money you like that there are devs who play PuG STFs.

    But devs probably don't have GM tools. The forum mods definitely don't.



    Changed for accuracy.

    Hehe a little harsh maybe anti-social and destructive :p
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  • joker8mejoker8me Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Looks like my run of luck continues, first ESTF of the day and some clown tanks the objective again. If I did not already have the reputation system & gear already finished, I would probably be a tad bit angry at this point.

    Somebody mentioned that adding people to your ignore list should prevent you from being grouped with them in STF's.

    I was unaware that it extended out like this, but people are saying the function is broken.

    If Cryptic/PWE fixed this feature/mechanic, I suspect it would solve most of the issues rather quickly once the word got out. Otherwise, my only other recourse is to join a fleet/guild which is something I have not needed or particularly wanted to do so far (nothing against those in fleets though).
  • eisaakazeisaakaz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    dashuk2381 wrote: »
    What bothers me more about STFs these days is everyone NEEDING on every single drop. I'm sure all those Vice Admirals with fully decked out Mk XII boats need that Mk IX green quality phaser array that just dropped, lol.


    I am guilty of this myself. I blame it on the reputation/fleet system.
    I NEED every item to sell and make ec to buy commodities and torpedoes to advance my bigger needs.

    And secondly I got tired of being the only player who missed out on everything because I was "playing to the spirit of the game" and putting greed down. No good deed goes unpunished as they say.

    But I agree it just abuses an honor system.

    Eisaak
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I think a vote to kick is very hard to abuse if it needs all 4 other players to vote kick on the 5th one.

    Unless you get 4 trolls...but the chances of that are low, and even if you get a 4 troll team, you are actually BETTER off kicked out of a team full of trolls.
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  • havok966havok966 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    eisaakaz wrote: »
    I am guilty of this myself. I blame it on the reputation/fleet system.
    I NEED every item to sell and make ec to buy commodities and torpedoes to advance my bigger needs.

    And secondly I got tired of being the only player who missed out on everything because I was "playing to the spirit of the game" and putting greed down. No good deed goes unpunished as they say.

    But I agree it just abuses an honor system.

    Eisaak


    I still greed on many things, but you know, I've been thinking about just needing everything that pops up. Seems everyone else is needing on it all, why shouldn't I?

    As to the problem of grief. I don't know 100% way to deal with the afkers, but how about for those that just keep running in and dying. Why not make it cost something to die?
    And before anyone things I'm only saying this because I don't die...oh believe me, I can die a few times.
    But yeah, just throw a meaning behind dying so people wouldn't want to go balls deep into the action by themselves because nothing really happens when you die.
    What's in your grind?
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    lonnehart wrote: »
    If only one of the "officials" in this game, whether it's a forum moderator or a dev woiuld secretly attend STFs and go through them. They themselves could then witness the griefer at work and would have the authority to take care of it. Or even better.. put in a way to record your STF sessions on vid to submit to whoever's in charge so they can see the griefer actions for themselves.

    I personally know one member of the team does frequent the STFs, and is very knowledgable about them.
    valoreah wrote: »
    I won't disagree that the STFs were better/more fun IMO when they were not in the queue. I will disagree that Cryptic is "sitting on their hands". There is nothing for them to do here. Quite frankly, the problem is with the players themselves. It's your choice to "suffer through PuGs". You don't have to.

    I know they aren't really sitting on their hands, it was a figure of speech that they aren't giving a major indication they are acting on the issue. For instance, they are reluctant to add a Kick from Team feature, in fears that would be exploited. Instead, they are focusing more on ways to grade participation, which surely is going to make things worse. (Those who remember the old Fleet Action scoring knows all too well).

    valoreah wrote: »
    Don't want to be in a queued event with AFK'ers and moochers? Find some people who don't do those things, add them to your friends list and run all the content you want together.


    Problem easily solved without a single line of new code written by Cryptic.

    Really, REALLY you had to use that overused Internet gamer line? /facepalm

    Ever occur that's not really an option anymore with the Elite STF channels being dead and small fleets have people bailing to T5 fleets, where they don't have enough people to do it privately?

    Honestly, these Public Queues made STO more Anti-Social.
    eisaakaz wrote: »
    I am guilty of this myself. I blame it on the reputation/fleet system.

    I NEED every item to sell and make ec to buy commodities and torpedoes to advance my bigger needs.


    And secondly I got tired of being the only player who missed out on everything because I was "playing to the spirit of the game" and putting greed down. No good deed goes unpunished as they say.


    But I agree it just abuses an honor system.

    Eisaak


    Case in point, use to be a time when people Needed when they actually Needed something. That died out when F2P went live. Greed has taken a firm foothold in STO with the instant gratification.

    If I was making an F2P MMO, I definitely would leave out a Queue system for Events.
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Here's my favorite way to grief an STF:

    When you see an AFKer fly to the other side of the planet, join him. Get as many players in the match as you can to do it too. Tell him he either he has to leave and get nothing, or he can join you and earn his keep.

    It's hilarious, you should try it.
  • thisisoverlordthisisoverlord Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    valoreah wrote: »
    Ok but these are not things Cryptic has any control over, nor should they. It's not their fault or concern people left your fleet for a better one. Find other players to replace them.

    Cryptic designed the systems and introduced the Season 7 changes that caused all this including the death of the STF channels.

    They have full control over it.
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  • thisisoverlordthisisoverlord Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    valoreah wrote: »
    I ask again, what's stopping you or anyone from creating a new channel? Hint: the answer is not Cryptic.

    Ha you don't think most of us have not already tried this approach I also advertised on the forum and off game as well, I even started a website.

    But the truth is simple, no one wants to join a T2 fleet.
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  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    dashuk2381 wrote: »
    What bothers me more about STFs these days is everyone NEEDING on every single drop. I'm sure all those Vice Admirals with fully decked out Mk XII boats need that Mk IX green quality phaser array that just dropped, lol.

    1. People in an Elite STF shouldn't need any of the drops. This means it's only about the EC value of the drop. Which everyone Needs. If you don't need EC, then Pass.

    2. Having to evaluate random items in the middle of a firefight is distracting. Better for everyone to just tap Need without even looking and get on with killing Borg.
    the death of the STF channels.
    The death of the STF channels come from weaksauce players learning about them and going "Oooh, I need stronger people to carry me!" Thereby flooding the channels with fail.
  • thisisoverlordthisisoverlord Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    valoreah wrote: »
    What's the channel you created? I'll help pass the word around. It's also not true that "no one" wants to join a T2 fleet. We've recently had several new people join both our Klingon and Fed fleets and we aren't at T3 on either.

    Seems to me there are people on the forums posting about issues with their small fleets. Why not reach out to them and perhaps you all could help each other out? Put alts into each other's fleets.

    they channel I had was #tfc I closed it down along with the fleet and website after I finished playing the game, in 6 months of it existing I didn't get one solid fleet member, I don't blame them either.

    Maybe I should have chosen my words better 95% of players don't want to join a T1/T2

    The solution lies with Cryptic incentivising people to join new and small fleets. Thus far they have not.
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  • thisisoverlordthisisoverlord Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    valoreah wrote: »
    Ok so you've closed your channels and website and one can join it or help out. Essentially, you gave up on it. How is this Cryptic's fault? You could've stuck with it and kept it all open. New players are coming to the game all the time.



    I won't care to guess what percent of players don't want to join a T2 fleet. However, I won't disagree that there are a lot of players out there who are looking for the shineys the big fleets have and that's all they really care about. It depends on what you are looking for in a fleet. Is the goal to have a bunch of resource mules to build your base for you or are you looking for people who you enjoy teaming with?


    Edit: Forgot to add, here is a link to a thread for players who seem to share your concerns. Why not reach out to some of them?

    Yeah I basically gave up when I realized Cryptic were not going to do anything to help new and small fleets.

    I find it hard to blame the players because why should they join a small T2 or new T1 fleet? where is the incentive when the fleet system itself is nothing more than a gateway to shinnies.
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  • sirokksirokk Member Posts: 990 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jexsamx wrote: »
    Here's my favorite way to grief an STF:

    When you see an AFKer fly to the other side of the planet, join him. Get as many players in the match as you can to do it too. Tell him he either he has to leave and get nothing, or he can join you and earn his keep.

    It's hilarious, you should try it.

    Yeah... and he'll just say, "Well you won't get anything either... let's just sit here."

    There is no good way to self-police this kind of activity without it being waste of valuable playtime or being abused (e.g. voting, kicking, abstaining, etc.) I still believe that this type of activity can be discouraged programmatically in the mission/game engine by measuring the kills and (as a previous reply suggested) heals.

    This is NO perfect solution no matter what. The solution should encourage participation. No participation, no rewards.
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  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    sirokk wrote: »
    Yeah... and he'll just say, "Well you won't get anything either... let's just sit here."

    Then I've successfully prevented one griefer from getting rewards he didn't earn. And the longer you can detain the griefer, the fewer STFs he can ruin for others.

    Until a better way to deal with them is implemented, the only way that will produce any semblance of a positive result is to attempt to make AFKing unprofitable. And the obvious way to accomplish that is to simply not do the work.

    Hardly a perfect solution, obviously. But better than encouraging the behavior by doing the STF for them.
  • jimbeamer5jimbeamer5 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    This has been said many times before, probably even in this thread, but if you put a player on "ignore" than you should never be teamed with them again. Won't help with the current STF, and maybe the code can't even handle such a thing, but damn it would be sweet.
  • rustiswordzrustiswordz Member Posts: 824 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I've said this before another game I like, World of Tanks has a superb method of dealing with afk players and team killers.

    Afk players are fined in game credits for non participation and after 5 mins or so are automatically removed from the game.

    Team killers (although non applicable in STO) get highlighted on the HUD and get hefty fines at the end of the match based on damage caused which is then passed onto the victim. The TKer is then allowed to be engaged by his own team without fines or reprisals.

    A simple elegant system that stopped 90% of unsportsmanlike behavior virtually overnight.

    With STO afk players should be removed from matches automatically after 2-3 mins. Simple and can be introduced. If a huge MMO like World of Tanks can do it in an update the i'm sure sto can.
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