no it is not valid, sorry.
your eng cruiser may deal almost same damage as an escort, but that in the pve world my friend.
Don't bring PvP arguments into a PvE game, it isn't valid. PvP in STO is an after thought at best, a couple of cheap generic scenarios thrown in last minute to make a incomplete faction tolerable.
Cruisers have issues, but they are far less than what the Kirkers believe them to be. It is almost all to do with beam weapons, if a tac escort could use beams and get close to the same damage output then things would be even.
-Beam drain mechanics need a fix, there are ways to fix them generically or specifically for cruisers, depending the route they want to go.
-Beam Boff abilities are terrible. BO should be the similar as CRF, and BFaW like CSV. They don't come close right now. It would give a beam ship the ability to burst damage, or at least deal predictable damage, right now its kind of a TRIBBLE shoot.
I'm currently flying a D'kora with beams, was flying a fleet excelsior (which did a bit more damage) and I intend to log this ship sufficiently with beams then DHCs and see how those go.
Y'know, I hear this argument a lot, usually from escort meatheads. To refute your argument, I pose to you that tanks/healers are not needed in this game. Escorts can tank well enough that cruisers are not needed, so with cruisers doing laughable damage...where does that leave them? And if cruisers are the intended healer/tank, what are science vessels?
As for your "more damage" solution, I'd like to remind you that torpedoes and dual beam banks (which suffer from the same power drain flaws as arrays and are, therefore, horribly subpar) only have a 90 degree firing arc, which is difficult to utilize in a ship with such an abysmal turn rate.
Now, to those saying "omg lrn2play your cruiser noob, i get x dps on blah blah blah", yes, very good for you. Given the amount of effort you had to put forth to do so well in your cruiser, think of how much MORE effective you would be in an Escort. I am not an advocate of Escorts, nor do I hate them. I do, however, hate that Escorts have become the be-all end-all of STO when almost every iconic ship in Star Trek canon has been a cruiser, not an Escort and I don't believe they fit the "feel" of what Star Trek is, but that's just my opinion. I'm not in the "nerf escorts" camp, but I am firmly in the "buff all other ships so escorts aren't leaps and bounds ahead of them with zero effort" camp. If the other ship classifications don't get improved in some way, that gap still needs to be narrowed somehow.
Well said, although I don't know if I'd call escort lovers "meatheads." That said, I get the impression that escort commanders forget that their ships are actually... you know, ships, not fighters. Star Trek is not all about fighters, Star Trek's ships are generally large, powerful vessels that end up in the cruiser category. These should not be relegated to a secondary role, although I personally wonder if their marketing strategy has something to do with this.
The word is the DHC's are going to get a Power use increase from gecko instead of buffing beam damage
If this happens a lot of scort drivers will learn what power drain is all about like cruiser drivers already know
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Again I really don't understand the complaining about power drain. With an ENG captain and all the available power boosts you have there is no reason to suffer from this. My Weapon Power is constant between 100-125 ALL of the time in combat. What are the rest of you complaining about power drain doing that is causing your weapon power to drain so much?
The word is the DHC's are going to get a Power use increase from gecko instead of buffing beam damage
If this happens a lot of scort drivers will learn what power drain is all about like cruiser drivers already know
It may affect a few, but some will retrain boffs and re-equip. There's some mighty powerful beam buffs that few TAC's currently use especially for low ranking officers.
With the wider firing arc it may even make scorts more powerful than they currently are.
Why does everybody want to make Cruisers the main damage dealers? They are not! They are tanks and/or healers.
Are you a Trek fan?...Seriously!?...I mean Seriously??? Have you watched (1) ST movie, or even (1) TNG episode???
How many times did the 1701 & /A show up to "HEAL" in a movie or TV show to a group of ships??
How many times did the 1701-D go on a mission assist & "heal" a group of ships?
What universe did that reasoning from? It certainly was NOT from any Trek TV shows on television. After 3 years...it's still a head-scratcher as to why the game is set up the way it is.
Again I repeat HOW MANY TIMES? Feel free to add in the 1701,1701-a AND the 1701-D. HOW MANY TIMES??? I think you'll be shocked to find the answer!
Tank? Sure. Heal?...nah.
(Hint: It's not looking good for that Cruiser heal theory)
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I fly a Dkora and I am having a LOT of trouble using my Engineer Boff's to their max effectiveness.
I have 6 slots. the two Ensign ones can only use EPTx or Eng team. Since my Ship is set up with 3 Conn DOffs to reduce Tactical Team Recharge down to 16 seconds I cannot use another "team" skill" or else it defeats the purpose. I can constantly chain that 1 tac team Boff and have tactical team running all the time with just one copy. The means I cannot use Eng Team or Science Team.
So my two Ensign Eng slots are both EPTX skills. Then I'm running dual RSP1 for my LT skills. For LTC I am running EPT Shields 3 and for Cmdr Aux to SIF3. I find that I could REALLY use another hull heal but another Aux 2SIF is useless. Aux to Dampeners = useless because of shared cooldown with Aux2SIF. Aux to Battery would make all my science + healing powers useless so I can't use that.
DEM is cool but the 2 minute cooldown is absurdly long for such a weak skill.
Boarding Party is stupid. Shuttles can be shot down and take a long time to reach the target. Boarding Parties should be transported onto the target ship instantly.
Engineering needs some useful skills. At the very least Aux 2 Dampeners and Aux 2 SIF need to be changed so they can be chained. Having to pick one and only get one copy is dumb.
Are you a Trek fan?...Seriously!?...I mean Seriously??? Have you watched (1) ST movie, or even (1) TNG episode???
How many times did the 1701 & /A show up to "HEAL" in a movie or TV show to a group of ships??
How many times did the 1701-D go on a mission assist & "heal" a group of ships?
What universe did that reasoning from? It certainly was NOT from any Trek TV shows on television. After 3 years...it's still a head-scratcher as to why the game is set up the way it is.
Again I repeat HOW MANY TIMES? Feel free to add in the 1701,1701-a AND the 1701-D. HOW MANY TIMES??? I think you'll be shocked to find the answer!
Tank? Sure. Heal?...nah.
(Hint: It's not looking good for that Cruiser heal theory)
This is game, if you had not noticed before. You most likely did not.
In the TV, all ships only did was shooting. That's it.
They did not make a lot of anomalies in space, or they did not use strange shield-healing abilities beside "Scotty, we need more power on the shields!"
I would LOVE to see how much you would like it if all your shield heals taken away.
And how well the Borg would kill you. And how much you would whine for "Good old times" and blame Cryptic.
Actually...why don't you just make your own game if you know so much better?
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
They want to have their cake and eat it too, that's why. Escort turnrate, escort fiepower, cruiser hull/shields=I WIN!!
Because... you know... escorts have crappy shield mods and low hull... *sigh*
I really do question the existence of anything in your skull besides ignorance. Look at current top tier escorts, more specifically fleet level escorts and specialty escorts (JHEC and JAS). They have hull and shields that are barely weaker after skills and equipment (almost unnoticeable in many cases) than a cruiser, at base, usually 4 or 5x the firepower of a cruiser (more in many cases), which easily goes up to 8 or 9x after skills and equipment, easily 3x it's turn rate and overall maneuverability at base, with it going to 4 or 5x after skills, with maybe 20% less tanking ability after skills.
So... you are basically saying that escort pilots are the only ones that are allowed to "have their cake and eat it too". Because guess what, they do.
This is one of the more reasonable solutions and overall improvement ideas I've come across.
It's a shame your thread had so many misinformed, negative and outright terrible responses to it.
This is what happens when anyone challenges the dominion of escort pilots in this game (irony, two of the three dominion ships are escorts... go figure). It brings all the escort lovers running and saying that cruisers are just trying to do something that they weren't intended to do, and they want unfair this, blah blah blah...
The correct answer to Cruisers feeling underpowered is an Auxiliary to Battery Build. I felt like Cruisers were so-so until I tried this type of setup. It's a bit expensive to get going on in EC, but well worth it.
__________________________________________________
Joined January 2010.
This is game, if you had not noticed before. You most likely did not.
In the TV, all ships only did was shooting. That's it.
They did not make a lot of anomalies in space, or they did not use strange shield-healing abilities beside "Scotty, we need more power on the shields!"
I would LOVE to see how much you would like it if all your shield heals taken away.
And how well the Borg would kill you. And how much you would whine for "Good old times" and blame Cryptic.
Actually...why don't you just make your own game if you know so much better?
That's not answering the question. And YES for sure, I'll take lesser shields, lesser hull or ever 1-2 LESS device slots if thats what needs to be sacrificed to get this game in order and give Cruisers a purpose once again.
Aux2 battery immediately negates the usefulness of Aux2 SIF, Aux to Dampeners, Sensor Scan, nearly all science Boff powers.
If you are a straight up tank then that's fine. If you are a Science Captain or you fly any sort support cruiser you cannot use that build. All non-damage related skills become worthless after using Aux 2 Battery.
I'm a sci and I use aux to batt builds all the time. You just need to time your A2B. Don't fire them off like mad just because it popped up. If you want to use a sci ability use it first then A2B.
I'm sure somebody will come screaming about how that won't work because they can't stick their A2B to their space bar... *giggle* but as a sci A2B is an amazing skill. It allows you to keep aux power high for the seconds you require it to be high, and then turn it all into other system power for when your sci skills are on cooldown. Aux battery and red matter cap for emergencies.
I've been flying my ody, anniversary ambassador, and dread all day. It's a L2P issue, cruisers are fine. Beating people in DPS all day. Eating hits that would have flattened any of these "escort tanks" Healing like a champ.
One thing you come to learn while pugging is most people don't have any idea what they are doing. Average DPS is like 3k. That is everybody, escort, cruiser, sci, doesn't matter. I do twice that without trying, and close to 9k if I'm focused. Good tacs pull off 9-11k. The thing is these players are rare. Most people peak out at 4k, think they are an authority on why their pet ship is broken, and then complain loudly that us other players that are flying that ship type and not having a problem are either lying or deluded.
"Escort tanks" also are forgetting that a cruiser is going to be able to soak larger single hits then an escort. Great, clever escorts have learned to mitigate damage. That is excellent. They still shouldn't tank because they are more vulnerable to one shot. Cue some twit ranting about how that doesn't matter...
Now to get back to my Atrox. I miss her.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I'm a sci and I use aux to batt builds all the time. You just need to time your A2B. Don't fire them off like mad just because it popped up. If you want to use a sci ability use it first then A2B.
I'm sure somebody will come screaming about how that won't work because they can't stick their A2B to their space bar... *giggle* but as a sci A2B is an amazing skill. It allows you to keep aux power high for the seconds you require it to be high, and then turn it all into other system power for when your sci skills are on cooldown. Aux battery and red matter cap for emergencies.
All of this is absolutely true. An Aux2Batt build will work on any cruiser that has the slots to run two copies of it, and will work with any Captain type. If you really feel the need to use Sci abilities, either plan ahead with your timing or keep Aux Batteries and/or a Red Matter Capacitor on hand. Either way, taking max points in EPS systems helps, and most Cruisers have room to stick in and EPS Relay if you're really hurting for transfer speed.
Personally, I run an Engineering Team in my Aux2Batt builds to take up the hull healing Engineering spot, but there are a lot of people who make it work with Aux2SIF as well. All it takes is a little practice, and Cruisers get to virtually ignore the weapon power drain on beams in return - the Aux2Batt setup seriously turns Cruisers into a powerhouse tank/DPS combo.
__________________________________________________
Joined January 2010.
I'm a sci and I use aux to batt builds all the time. You just need to time your A2B. Don't fire them off like mad just because it popped up. If you want to use a sci ability use it first then A2B.
I'm sure somebody will come screaming about how that won't work because they can't stick their A2B to their space bar... *giggle* but as a sci A2B is an amazing skill. It allows you to keep aux power high for the seconds you require it to be high, and then turn it all into other system power for when your sci skills are on cooldown. Aux battery and red matter cap for emergencies.
I've been flying my ody, anniversary ambassador, and dread all day. It's a L2P issue, cruisers are fine. Beating people in DPS all day. Eating hits that would have flattened any of these "escort tanks" Healing like a champ.
One thing you come to learn while pugging is most people don't have any idea what they are doing. Average DPS is like 3k. That is everybody, escort, cruiser, sci, doesn't matter. I do twice that without trying, and close to 9k if I'm focused. Good tacs pull off 9-11k. The thing is these players are rare. Most people peak out at 4k, think they are an authority on why their pet ship is broken, and then complain loudly that us other players that are flying that ship type and not having a problem are either lying or deluded.
"Escort tanks" also are forgetting that a cruiser is going to be able to soak larger single hits then an escort. Great, clever escorts have learned to mitigate damage. That is excellent. They still shouldn't tank because they are more vulnerable to one shot. Cue some twit ranting about how that doesn't matter...
Now to get back to my Atrox. I miss her.
Actually with clever key binding one can use A2B in a timed fashion without TRIBBLE up ones Aux dependent powers.
And you are absolutely right about Escorts.
Y'know, I hear this argument a lot, usually from escort meatheads. To refute your argument, I pose to you that tanks/healers are not needed in this game. Escorts can tank well enough that cruisers are not needed, so with cruisers doing laughable damage...where does that leave them? And if cruisers are the intended healer/tank, what are science vessels?
Whew, and this time with name-calling. Tanks and healers are indeed needed, but they aren't mandatory, which is fine by me as it should be with you, if you bothered to think before posting. No, in an escort I don't DEPEND on a heal, or someone holding aggro, but it is NICE from time-to-time. SCI ships? Again, in an escort there's little that makes me giggle more than seeing a high-level GW popping off, or a advantageous debuff for that matter.
Here's a question that you can direct all that escort-rage towards: If cruisers and sci ships suck SO much, why do I see them everywhere, including E-STF's?
As for your "more damage" solution, I'd like to remind you that torpedoes and dual beam banks (which suffer from the same power drain flaws as arrays and are, therefore, horribly subpar) only have a 90 degree firing arc, which is difficult to utilize in a ship with such an abysmal turn rate.
Jesus, do you even play this game??? Listen, why don't you spare us the the next delusional tale of woe and respec for a tac and fly an escort, because you seem to HATE the other options.
EDIT: This thread has now devolved and is heading down a bad path. /thread -BranFlakes
Comments
Don't bring PvP arguments into a PvE game, it isn't valid. PvP in STO is an after thought at best, a couple of cheap generic scenarios thrown in last minute to make a incomplete faction tolerable.
Cruisers have issues, but they are far less than what the Kirkers believe them to be. It is almost all to do with beam weapons, if a tac escort could use beams and get close to the same damage output then things would be even.
-Beam drain mechanics need a fix, there are ways to fix them generically or specifically for cruisers, depending the route they want to go.
-Beam Boff abilities are terrible. BO should be the similar as CRF, and BFaW like CSV. They don't come close right now. It would give a beam ship the ability to burst damage, or at least deal predictable damage, right now its kind of a TRIBBLE shoot.
I'm currently flying a D'kora with beams, was flying a fleet excelsior (which did a bit more damage) and I intend to log this ship sufficiently with beams then DHCs and see how those go.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
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And I'll disagree that you actually know how to fly, pilot, and play the game quite well.
See you have this huge post about "things I don't like that ought to be the way I want them to be".
Really? "I don't care if YOU can get dps I WANT to get dps the way I WANT to get dps!".
Good luck with that. Oh and your just flat out wrong on the boffs and CD's. First, you don't even know what the CD's are. They aren't shared.
It's a shame your thread had so many misinformed, negative and outright terrible responses to it.
Well said, although I don't know if I'd call escort lovers "meatheads." That said, I get the impression that escort commanders forget that their ships are actually... you know, ships, not fighters. Star Trek is not all about fighters, Star Trek's ships are generally large, powerful vessels that end up in the cruiser category. These should not be relegated to a secondary role, although I personally wonder if their marketing strategy has something to do with this.
If this happens a lot of scort drivers will learn what power drain is all about like cruiser drivers already know
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
It may affect a few, but some will retrain boffs and re-equip. There's some mighty powerful beam buffs that few TAC's currently use especially for low ranking officers.
With the wider firing arc it may even make scorts more powerful than they currently are.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Are you a Trek fan?...Seriously!?...I mean Seriously??? Have you watched (1) ST movie, or even (1) TNG episode???
How many times did the 1701 & /A show up to "HEAL" in a movie or TV show to a group of ships??
How many times did the 1701-D go on a mission assist & "heal" a group of ships?
What universe did that reasoning from? It certainly was NOT from any Trek TV shows on television. After 3 years...it's still a head-scratcher as to why the game is set up the way it is.
Again I repeat HOW MANY TIMES? Feel free to add in the 1701,1701-a AND the 1701-D. HOW MANY TIMES??? I think you'll be shocked to find the answer!
Tank? Sure. Heal?...nah.
(Hint: It's not looking good for that Cruiser heal theory)
Indeed. It's why I generally tend not to post again on threads I make. Always seem to get such negativity and off-topic subjects on them.
I have 6 slots. the two Ensign ones can only use EPTx or Eng team. Since my Ship is set up with 3 Conn DOffs to reduce Tactical Team Recharge down to 16 seconds I cannot use another "team" skill" or else it defeats the purpose. I can constantly chain that 1 tac team Boff and have tactical team running all the time with just one copy. The means I cannot use Eng Team or Science Team.
So my two Ensign Eng slots are both EPTX skills. Then I'm running dual RSP1 for my LT skills. For LTC I am running EPT Shields 3 and for Cmdr Aux to SIF3. I find that I could REALLY use another hull heal but another Aux 2SIF is useless. Aux to Dampeners = useless because of shared cooldown with Aux2SIF. Aux to Battery would make all my science + healing powers useless so I can't use that.
DEM is cool but the 2 minute cooldown is absurdly long for such a weak skill.
Boarding Party is stupid. Shuttles can be shot down and take a long time to reach the target. Boarding Parties should be transported onto the target ship instantly.
Engineering needs some useful skills. At the very least Aux 2 Dampeners and Aux 2 SIF need to be changed so they can be chained. Having to pick one and only get one copy is dumb.
This is game, if you had not noticed before. You most likely did not.
In the TV, all ships only did was shooting. That's it.
They did not make a lot of anomalies in space, or they did not use strange shield-healing abilities beside "Scotty, we need more power on the shields!"
I would LOVE to see how much you would like it if all your shield heals taken away.
And how well the Borg would kill you. And how much you would whine for "Good old times" and blame Cryptic.
Actually...why don't you just make your own game if you know so much better?
Because... you know... escorts have crappy shield mods and low hull... *sigh*
I really do question the existence of anything in your skull besides ignorance. Look at current top tier escorts, more specifically fleet level escorts and specialty escorts (JHEC and JAS). They have hull and shields that are barely weaker after skills and equipment (almost unnoticeable in many cases) than a cruiser, at base, usually 4 or 5x the firepower of a cruiser (more in many cases), which easily goes up to 8 or 9x after skills and equipment, easily 3x it's turn rate and overall maneuverability at base, with it going to 4 or 5x after skills, with maybe 20% less tanking ability after skills.
So... you are basically saying that escort pilots are the only ones that are allowed to "have their cake and eat it too". Because guess what, they do.
This is what happens when anyone challenges the dominion of escort pilots in this game (irony, two of the three dominion ships are escorts... go figure). It brings all the escort lovers running and saying that cruisers are just trying to do something that they weren't intended to do, and they want unfair this, blah blah blah...
Ugh... people... -.-
Yup. Internet forum ftw.
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
That's not answering the question. And YES for sure, I'll take lesser shields, lesser hull or ever 1-2 LESS device slots if thats what needs to be sacrificed to get this game in order and give Cruisers a purpose once again.
If you are a straight up tank then that's fine. If you are a Science Captain or you fly any sort support cruiser you cannot use that build. All non-damage related skills become worthless after using Aux 2 Battery.
I'm sure somebody will come screaming about how that won't work because they can't stick their A2B to their space bar... *giggle* but as a sci A2B is an amazing skill. It allows you to keep aux power high for the seconds you require it to be high, and then turn it all into other system power for when your sci skills are on cooldown. Aux battery and red matter cap for emergencies.
I've been flying my ody, anniversary ambassador, and dread all day. It's a L2P issue, cruisers are fine. Beating people in DPS all day. Eating hits that would have flattened any of these "escort tanks" Healing like a champ.
One thing you come to learn while pugging is most people don't have any idea what they are doing. Average DPS is like 3k. That is everybody, escort, cruiser, sci, doesn't matter. I do twice that without trying, and close to 9k if I'm focused. Good tacs pull off 9-11k. The thing is these players are rare. Most people peak out at 4k, think they are an authority on why their pet ship is broken, and then complain loudly that us other players that are flying that ship type and not having a problem are either lying or deluded.
"Escort tanks" also are forgetting that a cruiser is going to be able to soak larger single hits then an escort. Great, clever escorts have learned to mitigate damage. That is excellent. They still shouldn't tank because they are more vulnerable to one shot. Cue some twit ranting about how that doesn't matter...
Now to get back to my Atrox. I miss her.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
All of this is absolutely true. An Aux2Batt build will work on any cruiser that has the slots to run two copies of it, and will work with any Captain type. If you really feel the need to use Sci abilities, either plan ahead with your timing or keep Aux Batteries and/or a Red Matter Capacitor on hand. Either way, taking max points in EPS systems helps, and most Cruisers have room to stick in and EPS Relay if you're really hurting for transfer speed.
Personally, I run an Engineering Team in my Aux2Batt builds to take up the hull healing Engineering spot, but there are a lot of people who make it work with Aux2SIF as well. All it takes is a little practice, and Cruisers get to virtually ignore the weapon power drain on beams in return - the Aux2Batt setup seriously turns Cruisers into a powerhouse tank/DPS combo.
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
And you are absolutely right about Escorts.
R.I.P
Whew, and this time with name-calling.
Here's a question that you can direct all that escort-rage towards: If cruisers and sci ships suck SO much, why do I see them everywhere, including E-STF's?
Jesus, do you even play this game??? Listen, why don't you spare us the the next delusional tale of woe and respec for a tac and fly an escort, because you seem to HATE the other options.
EDIT: This thread has now devolved and is heading down a bad path. /thread -BranFlakes