The whole concept of Dilithium is Pay 2 Win, especially in terms of Fleets.
A currency that is available through ingame play is the exact opposite of Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win only applies to things where you cannot obtain either the same item, or one of very nearly comparable worth, through ingame means.
Dilithium can be acquired through play. I think your definition of Pay 2 Win is not realistic; if you're expecting that "Free 2 Play" means "this is no longer a for-profit venture, and you can't buy anything except hats and dye packs", I'm afraid there will never be a successful MMO that meets your definition.
This is a very expensive game to produce and operate.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
The fleet marks awarded from the Foundry were easily exploited in their original form and easily farmed faster than official fleet content in their updated form.
Which Cryptic knew, and allowed anyway - then blamed the player base for 'using' it.
Cryptic were heavy handed in removing them but the complaints would have come even if they'd released the increased FM from other sources in the same patch.
Not nearly as bad as it was trying to sneak them out and then tell players 'tough nuts' only to, yet again, realize it was an enormous blunder and do what they should have done in the first place - bolster FM's elsewhere to compensate. They make mistakes any person with 10% control over their brain and a reasonable grasp of common sense could avoid.
They're delivering the type of content they're employed to, mission content usually comes with events, featured episodes and season updates, ships come whenever they're finished.
When is the last time they actually released something when it was 'finished'? Everything they release is rampant with bugs/problems and is either untested on Tribble or tested and players give feedback about said problems yet it goes to Holodeck without any changes whatsoever. Give examples.
Featured projects are vanity projects for larger fleets to give a source of Fleetmarks and have a visual reward at the end of it. It's not intended for every fleet to achieve them.
Pointless resource sinks that do nothing for a system that really does mostly nothing in of itself other than dispense end game gear in a gated system that succinctly locks a portion of the player base out of it permanently unless they bend to Cryptic's ever changing demands upon players to play the game they want you to. Why the hell would anyone hang out on their Fleet Starbase for more than a few minutes at a time? There is **** all to do there, and the only thing people care about these 'Featured Projects' is once they are done they want a way to turn them OFF.
Maybe not, but after 6 months of ESTFs and getting no prototype drops I'll happily hand over Dilithium for them.
It's hardly like Dilithium's hard to come by these days, last week I was earning nearly 10k a day without the mining claims.
Every time I see someone whine about 'never getting my X piece(s)' from the old STF system I giggle. It's absurd to say you played every day or even every other day for 6 months STRAIGHT and NEVER got one piece of Tech. It's absolutely false and until we see any 'metrics' to the contrary it's mathematically impossible. I played it every day for a month and had 2/3 pieces for 2 different sets. I was not lucky either. Also finished 2 complete Borg sets just saving my EDC which is much better than paying DIL and commodities through the nose with this Rep system. I would never waste DIL on Fleet projects, or any other projects for that matter...just my choice. But again who cares if you are pulling in 10k or even 20k in DIL daily - only 8k of that is usable per 24 hours.
It was a last minute addition intended to prevent people from easily farming Fleet Marks, you know, the exact same reason they were so heavy handed in removing FM from the Foundry in the first place.
Congratulations, you have now described a stealth nerf.
The rest is, unfortunately, almost exactly what Ben Cousins says. Oh, I hate to be the proof of Godwin's Law, especially for someone who takes such pains to show us the wacky, skateboarding, nature loving, bicycle riding people who worked at EAsy, I really do; but what we have here is the perfect example of The Banality Of Evil. The bland disassociation from consequences or meaning. The reduction of people down to metrics. It's all there, it really is.
Now as one of the 78% who never post at the forums and, apart from a purchase when I first started the game I think, haven't paid anything since, normally I'd expect to stay quiet as a crab as the temperature slowly creeps up but... But Ben honest to goodness makes the argument that the ability to get more money out of people who aren't strong enough to say "no" is a good thing. He puts a percentage figure to that minority, defines them, admits that he's aware they claim to suffer from his actions... and casually justifies exchanging their outrage for more of their money all the same.
You can draw your own parallels according to taste; The drug pusher who justifies dealing as earning him money to escape, and as long as the sold drugs stay in the run down areas he's escaping... "Sure, I know they hate themselves for doing it... but they come back to me all the same."
Domestic violence? "I hit her, but it's for her own good, if she really didn't believe that, she'd leave". Do I hear a sharp intake of breath? I hope so... and my point is, if you didn't draw that exact same breath when you heard Ben's presentation, just because it came in a respectable format and in a calm, educated voice rather than screaching hate and bile in a Xeroxed pamphlet... well your moral compass needs seriously recalibrating if you didn't gasp. Because listen to what he actually says, and he makes it quite clear that the customer states they're being abused, and he explains it doesn't matter what they say, because they keep crawling back, and no one else makes too much of a fuss about the noise they did make where it counts.
All your analogies are missing right now is Sarah McLaughlin and a montage of sad-looking dogs. Seriously, you've gone straight through a cavalcade of face-palm worthy emotional appeal complete with analogizing video games to Adolf Eichmann. Video games to the banality of industrial genocide. Hooboy.
And not once did you even stop to consider that nobody is forcing Cousins' customers at gun-point, physical-addiction-point, or physical-abuse-point to keep saying 'Yes.'
You are the customer. You have the fundamental right to say 'No.' Nobody is forcing you to say 'Yes.' If you believe the company is gouging you for Pay2Win, or in Cousins' case they're even admitting as such, then its your responsibility to either continue to play along, moderate your game play, or just walk away. If you loudly proclaim how Pay2Win blows and you'll never spend another dime on the game, and then turn around and continue to spend many dimes on the game, then that's not the publisher's problem. At some point, personal responsibility has to kick in. If you can't say No, then that's your problem too.
I've been discussing this issue with my fleet and their answer is very simple on the matter.
If you go down to the pub every Thursday with your friends and enjoy it but don't buy a drink, you can't complain when the pub closes down. You don't have to spend any money, just sit there and enjoy the ambiance but it doesn't mean the bartender will give you a free drink.
If the pub sells more than one drink or has a pool table that costs is that greedy or just trying to provide you with another method of spending your money without having to have a drink?
The difference is that when things are so OP they make even paid for things look terrible in comparison, that is where the problem lies.
AMS used to be hated because it couldn't be cleared and could be chained easily and consistently.
Aceton Assimilators and Plasmonic Leech are hated because insulators don't work on them at all.
I don't mind paying for things that might give me a little bit of a more competitive edge. (the faster, lighter bike analogy) but not something that gives a completely unfair advantage (being able to push others off their bikes.) Which is the direction that some of these consoles and ships are heading in.
That is the fine line that Cryptic are treading and should try to be aware of when they market their goods.
A currency that is available through ingame play is the exact opposite of Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win only applies to things where you cannot obtain either the same item, or one of very nearly comparable worth, through ingame means.
Dilithium can be acquired through play. I think your definition of Pay 2 Win is not realistic; if you're expecting that "Free 2 Play" means "this is no longer a for-profit venture, and you can't buy anything except hats and dye packs", I'm afraid there will never be a successful MMO that meets your definition.
This is a very expensive game to produce and operate.
I think, with respect that is a rather dull argument. Dilithium can be acquired in game but how many things cost more then the 8k a day cap they put on Dilithium? Well not many things... the point is that Cryptic puts in this great ways of getting dilithium in game and then slaps a cap on it to stop people from developing too fast.
Presenting a much "easier" option of buying Zen and converting it into Dilthium. If they really weren't that greedy, the would make the Dilithium converted out of Zen into ORE and have to be refined under the 8k cap each day. If they were really the concerned about a play developing dilthium too fast.
Presenting a much "easier" option of buying Zen and converting it into Dilthium. If they really weren't that greedy, the would make the Dilithium converted out of Zen into ORE and have to be refined under the 8k cap each day. If they were really the concerned about a play developing dilthium too fast.
Correct, and smart business nous too, make people think that it's "fair" but in reality the system was always designed to pressure people to buy Dilithium with Zen. Sybe just took the marketing spiel at it's word, which is generally a really bad idea.
I would also take point with the idea that the game was expensive to produce considering that the core of the game is the engine which wasn't created for this game but modified and ported from Champions, There are a lot MMO's out there who have built their engine from scratch and that does take time and more money than porting one over. To be honest Cryptics entire behaviour has been about cutting costs and maximizing profit from the get go, releasing a beta quality game to market, taking 3 years to get it to a half finished state, introducing profit maximizing agents like lockboxes and generally ignoring bugs. Any smart business with a product that isn't that hot would do the same.
I think, with respect that is a rather dull argument. Dilithium can be acquired in game but how many things cost more then the 8k a day cap they put on Dilithium? Well not many things... the point is that Cryptic puts in this great ways of getting dilithium in game and then slaps a cap on it to stop people from developing too fast.
... and to stop the Dilithium Exchange from going completely to the Dilithium farmers. But gating content is pretty important as well.
Presenting a much "easier" option of buying Zen and converting it into Dilthium. If they really weren't that greedy, the would make the Dilithium converted out of Zen into ORE and have to be refined under the 8k cap each day. If they were really the concerned about a play developing dilthium too fast.
Right now, $10 worth of zen gets me 88000 dilithium. That's not exactly a huge rate of return there. Convert the dilithium bought to ore and the market crashes in favor of the Dilithium sellers even further.
Correct, and smart business nous too, make people think that it's "fair" but in reality the system was always designed to pressure people to buy Dilithium with Zen. Sybe just took the marketing spiel at it's word, which is generally a really bad idea.
And if people don't put money into the game, it stops running. You have to have a cap on the free currency conversion or you'd end up with no one buying anything ever. No purchases = no money = no game
I would also take point with the idea that the game was expensive to produce considering that the core of the game is the engine which wasn't created for this game but modified and ported from Champions, There are a lot MMO's out there who have built their engine from scratch and that does take time and more money than porting one over. To be honest Cryptics entire behaviour has been about cutting costs and maximizing profit from the get go, releasing a beta quality game to market, taking 3 years to get it to a half finished state, introducing profit maximizing agents like lockboxes and generally ignoring bugs. Any smart business with a product that isn't that hot would do the same.
What would you rather? They took the game down, rebuilt the engine from scratch and got rid of all the bugs and re released it in a year or two? That would seem to be the logical answer to that.
It may have escaped your notice, but Cryptic have been taken over twice. Hard to keep a high level of performance with rapid staff turn over like that and that's just the execs...
And if people don't put money into the game, it stops running. You have to have a cap on the free currency conversion or you'd end up with no one buying anything ever. No purchases = no money = no game
What would you rather? They took the game down, rebuilt the engine from scratch and got rid of all the bugs and re released it in a year or two? That would seem to be the logical answer to that.
It may have escaped your notice, but Cryptic have been taken over twice. Hard to keep a high level of performance with rapid staff turn over like that and that's just the execs...
You're missing the point entirely.
1] No I want people to put money into the game if you look to the left you will see I am a LTS, I have myself poured money into the game. What the other poster was saying is that if Cryptic were being honest they would only allow you to buy UNREFINED ore from the exchange.
2] Nope, I don't want that I merely stating a point of fact about the games development. Having said that even with the flawed game we have there are still improvements that can be made within the confines of the current engine and financial model that Cryptic should be exploring.
Well no, if Cryptic were being completely honest about it Ore wouldn't exist and there would be no need to refine it. You'd just get dilithium from missions.
By allowing you to sell ore, it would be a one way street. Ore for Zen. No one in their right mind would buy ore and then have to refine it on top of that. I might decide to drop ?20 so I can get the dilithium for the base project or a reputation one. I wouldn't do it so that I could make my cap for the next week. That's silly.
I think that's a discussion for another thread though.
Hmmm. I guess it comes down to "Pay to Win" or "Pay to Play"
If your silver and never spent a cent on STO you have no say here. Go enjoy the game as is. you would not even exist if it wasn't for F2P or P2W.. whatever you want to call it.
People who DO invest money rightfully expect to get more out of a "free" game. A few c-points and inv/bank slots won't cut it. There is just NO way anyone would spend any money on a "Free" game if it didn't give them an advantage, perk or bonus.
Really, if you want the Kumari or JHAS so bad, you have the exact same chance as any lifer or wallet warrior, you can grind dil and buy c-points/keys, or remove your credit cap and spend millions on the exchange. There is nothing stopping you from getting these P2W ships, open enough boxes and you can buy them with Lobi. Sure it will take time, and keys cost a bunch in c-points or ec but you can make both in game. You'll just have to work harder.
For the record I was against F2P from the start (not that I ever had a say). But I can't deny it has increased the STO population many times over, they have hired a ton more staff, the episodes are getting more complex and the maps much nicer looking, more voice, more cut scenes.. more everything really.
Hmmm. I guess it comes down to "Pay to Win" or "Pay to Play"
If your silver and never spent a cent on STO you have no say here. Go enjoy the game as is. you would not even exist if it wasn't for F2P or P2W.. whatever you want to call it.
People who DO invest money rightfully expect to get more out of a "free" game. A few c-points and inv/bank slots won't cut it. There is just NO way anyone would spend any money on a "Free" game if it didn't give them an advantage, perk or bonus.
Really, if you want the Kumari or JHAS so bad, you have the exact same chance as any lifer or wallet warrior, you can grind dil and buy c-points/keys, or remove your credit cap and spend millions on the exchange. There is nothing stopping you from getting these P2W ships, open enough boxes and you can buy them with Lobi. Sure it will take time, and keys cost a bunch in c-points or ec but you can make both in game. You'll just have to work harder.
For the record I was against F2P from the start (not that I ever had a say). But I can't deny it has increased the STO population many times over, they have hired a ton more staff, the episodes are getting more complex and the maps much nicer looking, more voice, more cut scenes.. more everything really.
Cheers
Just that some of us don't want to fly a JHAS or a Kumari, some of us want our ships to be balanced to them. I love Cruisers more then Escorts and the stats on some of these ships would make Picard weep.
And NO! Flying a Galor is not the answer either, all the ships should be balanced.
Just that some of us don't want to fly a JHAS or a Kumari, some of us want our ships to be balanced to them. I love Cruisers more then Escorts and the stats on some of these ships would make Picard weep.
And NO! Flying a Galor is not the answer either, all the ships should be balanced.
Blame those who worship "Trinity" gameplay. Personally I don't care for the trinity and the way they shoehorned that model into STO does not work well. A Cruiser/Sci will never dish out dps in sto (no matter what happens in the shows). We don't really need tanks, and cruisers can't often tank anyway as they can never keep aggro. Healing is nice but most ships have enough self healing to at least get out of combat and repair so it's not critical. CC still has a use in certain situations, GW, TB, and the like.
Umm pay to win happened a long long long time ago lol. As for all ships being balanced thats not going to work. Generic set ups have caused more loss of subs to mmos then any other change I can think of. You want the dps then go escort, you want the tank then go cruiser, and if you want to heal you can go science. Although I pretty sure a science could heal in a cruiser pretty well.
If you want the game to be pure star trek you can forget about ever flying a defiant or bop again. Those ships in the star trek world were never meant to take on full blown battleships/cruisers. Hell this game moved away from pure star trek the second it endorsed carriers.
The fact is the game is what it is and its not the worse set up ive seen as far as balance. My biggest gripe in sto is the dang dilithium.
For the love of mercy will the prophets go away lol. Every where I go, I hear some ding bat prophesying about how trinity is a failure, and not the future. Yet the one game that tried to go generic got kicked in the teeth. That was world of ********. Until something better comes along, there's no point trying to get rid of it. No one enjoys a generic game.
Edit LOL pefect world your sad. W A R C R A F T is a bleeped out word on these forums thats too funny.
Ben doesn't even show awareness that public impression counts in any wider sense... again, listen to all nearly 50 minutes of the presentation. He genuinely doesn't seem to understand anyone might be shocked by the dreadful algebra he's presenting.
While I'm not defending him , I think that part of his message (which you're welcome to disagree with) was that "seemingly popular (or unpopular) opinion" does not have to dictate or represent the financial reality of a game .
I think he's both right and wrong in a way , but more importantly I think that his stance represents a kind of hubris that can lead to the downfall of the project he's in charge of .
His stance is "we're making money so we're doing nothing wrong" . That is 'old school' business POV .
There are plenty of big businesses that would disagree with him .
According to the video, STO is following a very good path of player satisfaction and profits. If anything, it solidifies Cyptic and PWE actions of F2P and avoiding of renting items. Could you image STO requiring you to rent your ship or weapons. Then all you complainers of Pay 2 win would finally have a valid point. :P
Sick of hearing people say this game is free to play. The dilithium system put everyone in a position to buy from the exchange . I've managed to buy plenty of items using the dilithium exchange .
I'm a **** just noticed my stupid comment being free to play rather than pay to win.
This game is truly F2P... if you grind enough you can play and get anything in game with the exception of the few veteran and lifetime unlocks. This game is also P2W and I will explain this one.
Pay2Win basically is every game on the market... Until the day we become a real Trek society and get rid of money everything revolves around making profit and that happens from someone paying up. No money = no game.
In terms of how a player is affected by this P2W and F2P... A
person who is not spending any real money has to grind and grind and grind to obtain enough dilithium to exchange for zen to buy c-store items. This same person would have to grind EC to buy some of the items off the exchange like keys etc so they then could grind lobi or what have you. By the time someone could grind enough to get all these lovely items the paying player could just have bought everything they want and be much more powerful (or so we hope, right?) and kick your hind end. When you finally reach that spot and earn enough to buy your new lock box ship or c-store item, guess what, omg!, another item is released that out does the one you just worked your rear off for and the process repeats itself all over again. Now if you're not in a fleet and you're not spending on other dilithium sinks then I suppose you probably have loads of dilithium to trade. If you are fully embracing the game and doing all the various projects etc, my guess is you don't have dilithium just laying around.
So you see, it really still is Pay2Win but is Free2Play.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
I'm sorry but I can't agree with the p2w idea, in terms of paying to win, you can win with out spending a penny , just be patient and you'll get your reward n the end.
This game is truly F2P... if you grind enough you can play and get anything in game with the exception of the few veteran and lifetime unlocks. This game is also P2W and I will explain this one.
ANY game that still utilizes a subscription model of any kind is not truly Free to Play. Truly Free to Play games are just that - NO Sub model period.
ANY game that still utilizes a subscription model of any kind is not truly Free to Play. Truly Free to Play games are just that - NO Sub model period.
It's completely free to play if you can start the game from start to lvl cap and not pay a penny. Paying subscription of any kind is players choice, no obligations, there for free to play.
It's completely free to play if you can start the game from start to lvl cap and not pay a penny. Paying subscription of any kind is players choice, no obligations, there for free to play.
There a benefits and features of this game that you MUST pay to unlock at least once if you wish to take advantage of them. There is no other way to obtain them than paying for at least 1 month, how is that 'free'?
You missed the point I was making, let me break it down for you.
There is 'content' or benefits available in this game to those who ONLY subscribe, for at least a month. More benefits are available to you if you continue your subscription or buy the still available 'Lifetime' sub(please find me another MMO that still sells you 'lifetime' subs btw). There is absolutely NO OTHER WAY to obtain these items/benefits. None, zip, zilch ZERO. You must pay for them.
If you are preventing your 'Free' players from obtaining items or features that are available to 'Paid' players only, this is not 'truly' Free to play. Make no mistake, this is still very much a subscription game with an 'option' to play for free.
Two weeks, grinding the TRIBBLE out of two characters just to get enough DIL for a ship while someone plunks down their CC for that ship the day it's available and is pew-pewing circles around you for those two weeks. If we were talking about PvP, they just paid to win while you were trying to play to win.
The entire problem is the way Cryptic presents their 'Free-to-play' system on the player base. We realize like any other business they need to make money to survive, this is common knowledge. The problem is that this 'need for greed' is on our face practically every time we log in no matter what we are doing. I can't even think about getting immersed in a story line or just geeking out on some mob killing for a while before I'm reminded I need to put some 'tokens' into the Reputation System vending machine, or that I'll need a TRIBBLE load of DIL to get.....well anything mostly. Also the amount of CONTROL that is exerted by Cryptic over this game is similar to that of a severely overbearing parent. Their 'metrics' show them that a certain area of the game is not getting attention, or that one area is getting too much....so they yank the rewards, or TRIBBLE with them so people can't get anything from them anymore under the guise 'It was never meant to give that type of reward!' Well which one of you geniuses decided 2 months ago that was a stellar idea and threw it in there? Say 'oops' much?
Sometimes I think they just spin a wheel or throw darts at a dartboard to get their decisions. Nobody except maybe Joan Rivers is that erratic by nature.
I don't have a problem with the P2W/F2P type of game (I firmly believe you don't get one without the other in a free market economy)... This game is in far better shape as a whole than it was when it was a sub based game. I'm a lifer and I don't mind spending money and it does have advantages over F2P mostly in vet awards and having things faster when you spend money. This game is making far more money off of those pesky lock boxes than it ever did off of subs. We have the F2P model to thank for that. So I'll take the good with bad... I hate the boxes but am happy the game is alive and well and has several more devs working on the project now. I don't think it says the quality is bad to be F2P... this change happened with the onset of all the browser based F2P games taking market share from the premium pay games. This has been a win for STO but it's important to keep the balance on the content side as well. A grind fest for the sake of a grind fest isn't really a game anymore. I think now that STO has proven its worth to PWE we will probably see more content since the money is flowing in. I also agree with the poster that those who whine the loudest usually are the spenders. I complain but it's because I'm invested. If I didn't spend money I could leave and not feel bad about it but I've probably spent in my household over $1000 since the game was released. So like most people who spend money on a product you want to be happy with your purchase and if not you complain.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
There a benefits and features of this game that you MUST pay to unlock at least once if you wish to take advantage of them. There is no other way to obtain them than paying for at least 1 month, how is that 'free'?
You missed the point I was making, let me break it down for you.
There is 'content' or benefits available in this game to those who ONLY subscribe, for at least a month. More benefits are available to you if you continue your subscription or buy the still available 'Lifetime' sub(please find me another MMO that still sells you 'lifetime' subs btw). There is absolutely NO OTHER WAY to obtain these items/benefits. None, zip, zilch ZERO. You must pay for them.
If you are preventing your 'Free' players from obtaining items or features that are available to 'Paid' players only, this is not 'truly' Free to play. Make no mistake, this is still very much a subscription game with an 'option' to play for free.
Can you play through every story in this game with out payment, yes you can there for free to play.
This game has a full free to play experience . You do not have to pay to enjoy this game.
Yes there are specific items in this game that can only be obtained by a subscription, however non of those prevent you from archiving your goals nor stop you at any point in playing this game.
You want to pay for extra features go ahead but that doesn't stop this being f2p.
Can you play through every story in this game with out payment, yes you can there for free to play.
The 'story' of the game is not the sole playing experience, that's only maybe the first half of it. Focus on the entire picture, not just what you want to see.
Which is up to personal opinion. If you ever want to see more than 10mil EC(since you can't 'win' the best in game ship anymore), or need enough inventory space so that you don't have to trash things constantly to make room, you must sub for at least 1 month....but again, 'enjoy' is subject to personal opinion.
Yes there are specific items in this game that can only be obtained by a subscription, however non of those prevent you from archiving your goals nor stop you at any point in playing this game.
It's 'achieving', and thank you for confirming this game is not truly Free-to-Play. The bottom line is once you have 'items' or 'features' that are ONLY available to those who will PAY your are not operating a Free-to-Play game, you are operating a subscription game with the OPTION to play for free. If this game WAS truly F2P then all those things I listed would still be available to you somehow in game without paying real $ for them. It's gated content.
If this game WAS truly F2P then all those things I listed would still be available to you somehow in game without paying real $ for them. It's gated content.
You can be Free 2 Play with exclusive items, as long as equivalent items are available via free means. What is there in game that you can't get an equivalent item via Zen obtained from Dilithium trading?
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
You can be Free 2 Play with exclusive items, as long as equivalent items are available via free means. What is there in game that you can't get an equivalent item via Zen obtained from Dilithium trading?
Comments
A currency that is available through ingame play is the exact opposite of Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win only applies to things where you cannot obtain either the same item, or one of very nearly comparable worth, through ingame means.
Dilithium can be acquired through play. I think your definition of Pay 2 Win is not realistic; if you're expecting that "Free 2 Play" means "this is no longer a for-profit venture, and you can't buy anything except hats and dye packs", I'm afraid there will never be a successful MMO that meets your definition.
This is a very expensive game to produce and operate.
Which Cryptic knew, and allowed anyway - then blamed the player base for 'using' it.
Not nearly as bad as it was trying to sneak them out and then tell players 'tough nuts' only to, yet again, realize it was an enormous blunder and do what they should have done in the first place - bolster FM's elsewhere to compensate. They make mistakes any person with 10% control over their brain and a reasonable grasp of common sense could avoid.
When is the last time they actually released something when it was 'finished'? Everything they release is rampant with bugs/problems and is either untested on Tribble or tested and players give feedback about said problems yet it goes to Holodeck without any changes whatsoever. Give examples.
Pointless resource sinks that do nothing for a system that really does mostly nothing in of itself other than dispense end game gear in a gated system that succinctly locks a portion of the player base out of it permanently unless they bend to Cryptic's ever changing demands upon players to play the game they want you to. Why the hell would anyone hang out on their Fleet Starbase for more than a few minutes at a time? There is **** all to do there, and the only thing people care about these 'Featured Projects' is once they are done they want a way to turn them OFF.
Every time I see someone whine about 'never getting my X piece(s)' from the old STF system I giggle. It's absurd to say you played every day or even every other day for 6 months STRAIGHT and NEVER got one piece of Tech. It's absolutely false and until we see any 'metrics' to the contrary it's mathematically impossible. I played it every day for a month and had 2/3 pieces for 2 different sets. I was not lucky either. Also finished 2 complete Borg sets just saving my EDC which is much better than paying DIL and commodities through the nose with this Rep system. I would never waste DIL on Fleet projects, or any other projects for that matter...just my choice. But again who cares if you are pulling in 10k or even 20k in DIL daily - only 8k of that is usable per 24 hours.
Congratulations, you have now described a stealth nerf.
I'm pretty sure there's thousands of players who already know that based on the money they spent on this game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
All your analogies are missing right now is Sarah McLaughlin and a montage of sad-looking dogs. Seriously, you've gone straight through a cavalcade of face-palm worthy emotional appeal complete with analogizing video games to Adolf Eichmann. Video games to the banality of industrial genocide. Hooboy.
And not once did you even stop to consider that nobody is forcing Cousins' customers at gun-point, physical-addiction-point, or physical-abuse-point to keep saying 'Yes.'
You are the customer. You have the fundamental right to say 'No.' Nobody is forcing you to say 'Yes.' If you believe the company is gouging you for Pay2Win, or in Cousins' case they're even admitting as such, then its your responsibility to either continue to play along, moderate your game play, or just walk away. If you loudly proclaim how Pay2Win blows and you'll never spend another dime on the game, and then turn around and continue to spend many dimes on the game, then that's not the publisher's problem. At some point, personal responsibility has to kick in. If you can't say No, then that's your problem too.
If you go down to the pub every Thursday with your friends and enjoy it but don't buy a drink, you can't complain when the pub closes down. You don't have to spend any money, just sit there and enjoy the ambiance but it doesn't mean the bartender will give you a free drink.
If the pub sells more than one drink or has a pool table that costs is that greedy or just trying to provide you with another method of spending your money without having to have a drink?
The difference is that when things are so OP they make even paid for things look terrible in comparison, that is where the problem lies.
AMS used to be hated because it couldn't be cleared and could be chained easily and consistently.
Aceton Assimilators and Plasmonic Leech are hated because insulators don't work on them at all.
I don't mind paying for things that might give me a little bit of a more competitive edge. (the faster, lighter bike analogy) but not something that gives a completely unfair advantage (being able to push others off their bikes.) Which is the direction that some of these consoles and ships are heading in.
That is the fine line that Cryptic are treading and should try to be aware of when they market their goods.
I think, with respect that is a rather dull argument. Dilithium can be acquired in game but how many things cost more then the 8k a day cap they put on Dilithium? Well not many things... the point is that Cryptic puts in this great ways of getting dilithium in game and then slaps a cap on it to stop people from developing too fast.
Presenting a much "easier" option of buying Zen and converting it into Dilthium. If they really weren't that greedy, the would make the Dilithium converted out of Zen into ORE and have to be refined under the 8k cap each day.
Correct, and smart business nous too, make people think that it's "fair" but in reality the system was always designed to pressure people to buy Dilithium with Zen. Sybe just took the marketing spiel at it's word, which is generally a really bad idea.
I would also take point with the idea that the game was expensive to produce considering that the core of the game is the engine which wasn't created for this game but modified and ported from Champions, There are a lot MMO's out there who have built their engine from scratch and that does take time and more money than porting one over. To be honest Cryptics entire behaviour has been about cutting costs and maximizing profit from the get go, releasing a beta quality game to market, taking 3 years to get it to a half finished state, introducing profit maximizing agents like lockboxes and generally ignoring bugs. Any smart business with a product that isn't that hot would do the same.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
... and to stop the Dilithium Exchange from going completely to the Dilithium farmers. But gating content is pretty important as well.
Right now, $10 worth of zen gets me 88000 dilithium. That's not exactly a huge rate of return there. Convert the dilithium bought to ore and the market crashes in favor of the Dilithium sellers even further.
And if people don't put money into the game, it stops running. You have to have a cap on the free currency conversion or you'd end up with no one buying anything ever. No purchases = no money = no game
What would you rather? They took the game down, rebuilt the engine from scratch and got rid of all the bugs and re released it in a year or two? That would seem to be the logical answer to that.
It may have escaped your notice, but Cryptic have been taken over twice. Hard to keep a high level of performance with rapid staff turn over like that and that's just the execs...
You're missing the point entirely.
1] No I want people to put money into the game if you look to the left you will see I am a LTS, I have myself poured money into the game. What the other poster was saying is that if Cryptic were being honest they would only allow you to buy UNREFINED ore from the exchange.
2] Nope, I don't want that I merely stating a point of fact about the games development. Having said that even with the flawed game we have there are still improvements that can be made within the confines of the current engine and financial model that Cryptic should be exploring.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
By allowing you to sell ore, it would be a one way street. Ore for Zen. No one in their right mind would buy ore and then have to refine it on top of that. I might decide to drop ?20 so I can get the dilithium for the base project or a reputation one. I wouldn't do it so that I could make my cap for the next week. That's silly.
I think that's a discussion for another thread though.
If your silver and never spent a cent on STO you have no say here. Go enjoy the game as is. you would not even exist if it wasn't for F2P or P2W.. whatever you want to call it.
People who DO invest money rightfully expect to get more out of a "free" game. A few c-points and inv/bank slots won't cut it. There is just NO way anyone would spend any money on a "Free" game if it didn't give them an advantage, perk or bonus.
Really, if you want the Kumari or JHAS so bad, you have the exact same chance as any lifer or wallet warrior, you can grind dil and buy c-points/keys, or remove your credit cap and spend millions on the exchange. There is nothing stopping you from getting these P2W ships, open enough boxes and you can buy them with Lobi. Sure it will take time, and keys cost a bunch in c-points or ec but you can make both in game. You'll just have to work harder.
For the record I was against F2P from the start (not that I ever had a say). But I can't deny it has increased the STO population many times over, they have hired a ton more staff, the episodes are getting more complex and the maps much nicer looking, more voice, more cut scenes.. more everything really.
Cheers
Just that some of us don't want to fly a JHAS or a Kumari, some of us want our ships to be balanced to them. I love Cruisers more then Escorts and the stats on some of these ships would make Picard weep.
And NO! Flying a Galor is not the answer either, all the ships should be balanced.
Blame those who worship "Trinity" gameplay. Personally I don't care for the trinity and the way they shoehorned that model into STO does not work well. A Cruiser/Sci will never dish out dps in sto (no matter what happens in the shows). We don't really need tanks, and cruisers can't often tank anyway as they can never keep aggro. Healing is nice but most ships have enough self healing to at least get out of combat and repair so it's not critical. CC still has a use in certain situations, GW, TB, and the like.
Cheers
If you want the game to be pure star trek you can forget about ever flying a defiant or bop again. Those ships in the star trek world were never meant to take on full blown battleships/cruisers. Hell this game moved away from pure star trek the second it endorsed carriers.
The fact is the game is what it is and its not the worse set up ive seen as far as balance. My biggest gripe in sto is the dang dilithium.
For the love of mercy will the prophets go away lol. Every where I go, I hear some ding bat prophesying about how trinity is a failure, and not the future. Yet the one game that tried to go generic got kicked in the teeth. That was world of ********. Until something better comes along, there's no point trying to get rid of it. No one enjoys a generic game.
Edit LOL pefect world your sad. W A R C R A F T is a bleeped out word on these forums thats too funny.
While I'm not defending him , I think that part of his message (which you're welcome to disagree with) was that "seemingly popular (or unpopular) opinion" does not have to dictate or represent the financial reality of a game .
I think he's both right and wrong in a way , but more importantly I think that his stance represents a kind of hubris that can lead to the downfall of the project he's in charge of .
His stance is "we're making money so we're doing nothing wrong" . That is 'old school' business POV .
There are plenty of big businesses that would disagree with him .
I'm a **** just noticed my stupid comment being free to play rather than pay to win.
Pay2Win basically is every game on the market... Until the day we become a real Trek society and get rid of money everything revolves around making profit and that happens from someone paying up. No money = no game.
In terms of how a player is affected by this P2W and F2P... A
person who is not spending any real money has to grind and grind and grind to obtain enough dilithium to exchange for zen to buy c-store items. This same person would have to grind EC to buy some of the items off the exchange like keys etc so they then could grind lobi or what have you. By the time someone could grind enough to get all these lovely items the paying player could just have bought everything they want and be much more powerful (or so we hope, right?) and kick your hind end. When you finally reach that spot and earn enough to buy your new lock box ship or c-store item, guess what, omg!, another item is released that out does the one you just worked your rear off for and the process repeats itself all over again. Now if you're not in a fleet and you're not spending on other dilithium sinks then I suppose you probably have loads of dilithium to trade. If you are fully embracing the game and doing all the various projects etc, my guess is you don't have dilithium just laying around.
So you see, it really still is Pay2Win but is Free2Play.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
ANY game that still utilizes a subscription model of any kind is not truly Free to Play. Truly Free to Play games are just that - NO Sub model period.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
It's completely free to play if you can start the game from start to lvl cap and not pay a penny. Paying subscription of any kind is players choice, no obligations, there for free to play.
Not to mention that in a months time that ship or other shiny is old news and something else is on the horizon to be released.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
There a benefits and features of this game that you MUST pay to unlock at least once if you wish to take advantage of them. There is no other way to obtain them than paying for at least 1 month, how is that 'free'?
You missed the point I was making, let me break it down for you.
There is 'content' or benefits available in this game to those who ONLY subscribe, for at least a month. More benefits are available to you if you continue your subscription or buy the still available 'Lifetime' sub(please find me another MMO that still sells you 'lifetime' subs btw). There is absolutely NO OTHER WAY to obtain these items/benefits. None, zip, zilch ZERO. You must pay for them.
If you are preventing your 'Free' players from obtaining items or features that are available to 'Paid' players only, this is not 'truly' Free to play. Make no mistake, this is still very much a subscription game with an 'option' to play for free.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
I don't have a problem with the P2W/F2P type of game (I firmly believe you don't get one without the other in a free market economy)... This game is in far better shape as a whole than it was when it was a sub based game. I'm a lifer and I don't mind spending money and it does have advantages over F2P mostly in vet awards and having things faster when you spend money. This game is making far more money off of those pesky lock boxes than it ever did off of subs. We have the F2P model to thank for that. So I'll take the good with bad... I hate the boxes but am happy the game is alive and well and has several more devs working on the project now. I don't think it says the quality is bad to be F2P... this change happened with the onset of all the browser based F2P games taking market share from the premium pay games. This has been a win for STO but it's important to keep the balance on the content side as well. A grind fest for the sake of a grind fest isn't really a game anymore. I think now that STO has proven its worth to PWE we will probably see more content since the money is flowing in. I also agree with the poster that those who whine the loudest usually are the spenders. I complain but it's because I'm invested. If I didn't spend money I could leave and not feel bad about it but I've probably spent in my household over $1000 since the game was released. So like most people who spend money on a product you want to be happy with your purchase and if not you complain.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
Can you play through every story in this game with out payment, yes you can there for free to play.
This game has a full free to play experience . You do not have to pay to enjoy this game.
Yes there are specific items in this game that can only be obtained by a subscription, however non of those prevent you from archiving your goals nor stop you at any point in playing this game.
You want to pay for extra features go ahead but that doesn't stop this being f2p.
The 'story' of the game is not the sole playing experience, that's only maybe the first half of it. Focus on the entire picture, not just what you want to see.
No it doesn't, for the reasons I already pointed out.
Which is up to personal opinion. If you ever want to see more than 10mil EC(since you can't 'win' the best in game ship anymore), or need enough inventory space so that you don't have to trash things constantly to make room, you must sub for at least 1 month....but again, 'enjoy' is subject to personal opinion.
It's 'achieving', and thank you for confirming this game is not truly Free-to-Play. The bottom line is once you have 'items' or 'features' that are ONLY available to those who will PAY your are not operating a Free-to-Play game, you are operating a subscription game with the OPTION to play for free. If this game WAS truly F2P then all those things I listed would still be available to you somehow in game without paying real $ for them. It's gated content.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
You can be Free 2 Play with exclusive items, as long as equivalent items are available via free means. What is there in game that you can't get an equivalent item via Zen obtained from Dilithium trading?
These items and rewards maybe?
Some of which are skill point rewards or items for which there are no equivalent items anywhere else?
Nouveau riche LTS member
I've had a few good lock box items from my free to play guy, managed to get a tholian orb weaver.