Keep in mind that was one developer's opinion, and he wasn't the Executive Producer; it didn't represent Cryptic's plans for the future of the game. We can't keep complaining that the devs don't post here if we're also going to overreact when they're spitballing ideas or giving individual opinions. Gozer liked throwing unpopular ideas out and seeing what people think, and he liked thinking out loud. That doesn't mean Cryptic's going to decide to do what he said, or even that he still thought that way the next day.
While I've got your attention, I also want to clarify something else:
When I titled this thread "The importance of avoiding Pay 2 Win", I wasn't intending that title as a value statement "it's important to avoid Pay 2 Win; discuss why". I intended it more as "a discussion of whether it's really important to avoid Pay 2 Win in Star Trek Online, and related subjects".
I would hope folks who don't agree it's important would feel empowered to speak up as to why they feel that way, just as much as people who DO agree it's important will; and also that we'd discuss HOW important it is.
Is it as important to avoid it in this game as in a shooter? How hard should Cryptic strive to avoid it? If avoiding it requires sacrifice, what should they sacrifice? How far is too far?
Of course the problem is that Cryptic thinks Pay 2 Win is alright, especially if its making them money. They are not likely to fix anything while it makes them money.
Cryptic = Greedy
There is no point talking about this, its not going to change anything and ultimately, its the way the game is going to go.
Of course the problem is that Cryptic thinks Pay 2 Win is alright, especially if its making them money. They are not likely to fix anything while it makes them money.
Cryptic = Greedy
There is no point talking about this, its not going to change anything and ultimately, its the way the game is going to go.
Talk about why we can't have nice things.....
Look, this game has only one thing that is truly P2W. The fleet ships are literally the only thing that's P2W, and even those can be obtained for free.
Look, this game has only one thing that is truly P2W. The fleet ships are literally the only thing that's P2W, and even those can be obtained for free.
For me Pay 2 Win is when there are game-breakingly good items that only paying customers have access to.
For me Pay 2 Win is when there are game-breakingly good items that only paying customers have access to.
And there isn't too much of that content.
That's why I wasn't too bothered by your cavalier "I don't mind watching everyone else suffer so long as I can pay cash to avoid it" attitude you displayed earlier.
I think it was something like the third post in that I said there's nothing to win in this game, so P2W seems superfluous.
Unless, of course, they were constantly updating ship types each month, and scaling content to parity with those new ships, under the expectation that I'll buy a new ship each month; that's the only way I can see P2W really entering this game, and as much as it kind of happened to me already that was due to my timing in picking up the game moreso than it was by Cryptic's design.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
That's why I wasn't too bothered by your cavalier "I don't mind watching everyone else suffer so long as I can pay cash to avoid it" attitude you displayed earlier.
Well that's not exactly my view, my view is that the current content makes grinding something that people suffer through and that I don't like to see.
But I would like some kind of equality between those who are cash-rich and those who are time-rich. As it stands those with more time to play than me have an advantage I would like to see more options for those of us with less time to be able to buy progress.
That the current content people have to grind is terribly tedious is unfortunate either way you look at it.
I read most of the post in this thread and I see no one posting what items are p2w.Yes this game has broken items or stupid items or traits (placate is one) ,but none are p2w.The best things in the game are worth zero if you dont know how to use your ship /buffs or how to equip your ship or how to skill your toon.
Everything is obtainable in game with some grind.What can be a problem is the amount of time you need to spend grinding to get certain items (for 1 lobi store console 200 lobi you need to grind @50 master key worth of ec ....if those are the p2w things in the game )...grind in this game is a problem not only for f2p players (reputation system)
as for pvp ....this game will never have good 1 vs 1 pvp .Team pvp in this game is brilliant and if the game would have some kind of pvp tutorial (in which people to learn about distribute shields and how and when to use buffs) we'd see many many people playing pvp not complaining about how "escort popped my ship".
I read most of the post in this thread and I see no one posting what items are p2w.Yes this game has broken items or stupid items or traits (placate is one) ,but none are p2w.
The Jem Hadar Attack Ship has been mentioned at least a dozen times. If you want to argue why it isn't pay-to-win, go right ahead.
The best things in the game are worth zero if you dont know how to use your ship /buffs or how to equip your ship or how to skill your toon.
Your literal interpretation of the term 'pay-to-win' is a poor argument. No game would actually sell a guaranteed win. What games do sell is items that give better odds at winning. Like the Jem Hadar Attack Ship.
The Jem Hadar Attack Ship has been mentioned at least a dozen times. If you want to argue why it isn't pay-to-win, go right ahead
Your literal interpretation of the term 'pay-to-win' is a poor argument. No game would actually sell a guaranteed win. What games do sell is items that give better odds at winning. Like the Jem Hadar Attack Ship.
I see you developed a small obsession about that ship.:rolleyes:
how is that ship p2w?just buy one from exchange.What stops you to buy a ship from exchange?Is it grind? If its grind maybe everyone should get everything from tutorial (the box where you get your first kit and weapon) and have no reason to play.
Not even in pve where damage/dps are important to "win" the first place in sb24 JHAS is p2w .There are ships which deliver more damage than JHAS.
How does my ability to buy a JHAS from the exchange make it not p2w? People spend around $250 on average to obtain one; that includes the ones that end up on the exchange. Those JHAS were obtained by people who paid to win, they just for some reason decided not to take advantage of it.
Not even in pve where damage/dps are important to "win" the first place in sb24 JHAS is p2w .There are ships which deliver more damage than JHAS.
Because there is nothing more to a ship than dee pee es.
Of course the problem is that Cryptic thinks Pay 2 Win is alright, especially if its making them money. They are not likely to fix anything while it makes them money.
Cryptic = Greedy
There is no point talking about this, its not going to change anything and ultimately, its the way the game is going to go.
You've made those statements several times now, but I haven't seen you present any supporting evidence. Could you provide some reasons why you feel that way?
Unless you truly think there's no point talking about this, which seems unlikely, since you keep talking about this.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
How does my ability to buy a JHAS from the exchange make it not p2w? People spend around $250 on average to obtain one; that includes the ones that end up on the exchange.
Because there is nothing more to a ship than dee pee es.
so for you p2w is both real world money and ec?
you need the game version with all ingame items for free in the tutorial.No reason to play or grind.:D
if you buy it with ec you dont care about that guy who paid 250 dollars for it and wants few hundred millions ec unless you forced that person to spend money .
still I dont know how is that ship p2w .Win what? PvP 1 vs 1 is s*** with or without that ship.In team pvp with a dedicated healer you will want a escort with more dps (defiant ,mvam) .In team pvp you will rarely see escorts dogfights to need jhas turn rate.
I know someone who thinks the way jhas looks makes it op (easy to see the 45degrees dhc firing arc ) :rolleyes:
You've made those statements several times now, but I haven't seen you present any supporting evidence. Could you provide some reasons why you feel that way?
Unless you truly think there's no point talking about this, which seems unlikely, since you keep talking about this.
I would like to see some evidence to show that Cryptic are not Greedy... Look around you... Bugs that have been here for almost 2-3 years have gone unfixed, a lockbox system that Cryptic refuses to post probability figures for because that would probably discourage people from getting it... I have a few more points if you are interested.
- Trying to remove a decent number of Fleet Marks because players progressing too fast. The Fleet Starbase system has been out for almost a year now.
- Limited content development compared to release of new ships and profit driven items... etc... You can argue that the Dev team that develops content is not the same as the ship designers but then what is the Content Devs doing rather then twiddling their thumbs?
- Ridiculous Starbase progression products. Tier 2 Military Shipyard costs 120,000 Dilithium which is hard unless you are part of a large, "faceless" Fleet.
- Completely Pointless Featured Projects, which continue to serve no usual purpose and are not worth the 200,000 Dilithium asked for them. They are not even worth 10,000.
- Reputation Items Require Dilithium which you didn't need to get the M.A.C.O, Omega Force or Borg sets in the past.
Not to mention, the "Stealth Nerf" to private PvP which only came in this week and was only added to the patch notes during the game downtime so that minimum people would be away of the change.
I am sure that lots and lots of people could offer additional reasons why Cryptic's reputation is considered to be worse then a politicians. Because they have repeatedly promised things and failed to deliver to the standard demanded by the player-base.
However, I am sure if the Z-Store broke for any reason, the entire of Cryptic Studios would be straight on to fixing it.
you need the game version with all ingame items for free in the tutorial.No reason to play or grind.:D
You don't get it. It doesn't matter who actually pays the money, the problem with pay-to-win is that the company running it makes money by selling power in the store. It doesn't matter if you pay the money or an intermediary does.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Of course the problem is that Cryptic thinks Pay 2 Win is alright, especially if its making them money. They are not likely to fix anything while it makes them money.
Cryptic = Greedy
There is no point talking about this, its not going to change anything and ultimately, its the way the game is going to go.
You've made those statements several times now, but I haven't seen you present any supporting evidence. Could you provide some reasons why you feel that way?
Unless you truly think there's no point talking about this, which seems unlikely, since you keep talking about this.
Which statement has no evidence? I think it's abundantly clear that the best ships are available from the store (either direct, through lockboxes or fleet modules.) I think it's completely proven that every such ship is bought with cash that PWE receives from some source, even if it's not the end user. This shows that PWE and Cryptic are making money by selling top-level power for cash. That is pay-to-win.
Now as for Cryptic being Greedy, I wouldn't necessarily go that far. Cryptic is a business that wants to make money. It's unfortunate that they make more money by denying their motivations with regards to pay-to-win. It's dishonest and perhaps not entirely ethical, but as they say, "it's just business."
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
There's NOTHING in STO that you can't get through playing the game normally.
*EDIT: stupid laptop lost the rest of my post and I'm too tired to retype it.*
***The above ramblings are, as always, my own opinion. Based on my experiences and interpreted by my mind, they by no means reflect the universal truth (unless coincidentally). Peace.***
I see you developed a small obsession about that ship.:rolleyes:
how is that ship p2w?just buy one from exchange.What stops you to buy a ship from exchange?Is it grind? If its grind maybe everyone should get everything from tutorial (the box where you get your first kit and weapon) and have no reason to play.
Maybe you are forgetting the fact that no 'free' account can have more than 10 million EC without an 'upgrade' to Gold for at least a month, not even counting the fact the Bug ship costs 500 million+ EC by itself? It's comical.
There's NOTHING in STO that you can't get through playing the game normally.
*EDIT: stupid laptop lost the rest of my post and I'm too tired to retype it.*
The only way that statement is true is if you plan to play for the rest of your life. I'd be interested to see you break that down into farming EC to buy keys to lock boxes and continue attempting to get all of those ships without spending a single dime over and over and over until you have them all. Very interested.
Maybe you are forgetting the fact that no 'free' account can have more than 10 million EC without an 'upgrade' to Gold for at least a month
This is completely untrue and shows a disturbing lack of even basic research.
It costs all of 500 Zen to remove the cap. Or, with the exchange in it's current state, about a whopping 7 days worth of Dilithium. That's assuming of course you don't even DOFF farm on your KDF slot. Which would be really stupid being as contraband just falls out of the sky over there.
Also, I didn't pay a penny for an Odyssey bundle. Just saying.
and continue attempting to get all of those ships
Why would anyone not suffering from OCD "need" all the ships?
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
Why would anyone not suffering from OCD "need" all the ships?
My wish list for Cap'n Denny is: Fleet Patrol Escort, then later on down the road a Regent, Armitage, MVAE, Ody, maybe a Vesta, maybe a Tac Refit, and maybe a Fleet Escort if/when my fleet finally hits Tier 2.
But the thing is: I'm in no hurry for anything but the FPE. The Emden is my gray lady. :cool: All the others are luxuries, I can take my time saving up Zen and exchanged Zen for them. And I have no real desire for any of the lockbox ships, since, well, lockbox. And I honestly don't think any of them would be ships my Fed would want to pilot.
I can understand players being vocal about getting the best stuff in the shortest amount of time, but understand not all of us are in such a hurry.
The argument is easy to refute, because in the unadorned language Ben Cousins presents it in, it's own moral monstrousness is obvious... unless, as Upton Sinclair famously noted, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
The argument he makes, with no apparent understanding, is simply this.
1.) We attempted to discover what items, if any, people were willing to buy in game by public responses to a system of polling.
2.) From this data, and data taken from Korea that warned us there would be a perceived emotional rejection to some of the concepts, we discovered we could make a lot more money if we didn't abide by our earlier promises to various forums to not introduce those concepts. I feel guilty about this, but I have a family to feed.
3.) We discovered that compromising on our promises had no overall effect on retention, recruitment, the average customers' average spending... Every average metric remains unchanged except;
4.) We did find, apart from the disastrous and offended media coverage, there was a minority of customers, whom we place at around 2% of people judging by their linked forum account responses, who would react in an emotionally upset way if we passed these changes. 78% of players never read or posted on forums, but this 2% did, and posted loudly and negatively.
5.) We began tracking these specific individuals and discovered that despite the immense emotional distress they stated we were causing, they would still spend money on something they hated doing all the same. I am pleased to share some of their emotional posts and a little of their actual spending habits, as specific individuals, with you the world.
6.) We discovered that, by exchanging our principles on pay to win items, we could thus generate a lot more profit from those individuals, and from those who couldn't bear to lose in our game, in exchange for only a rise in public condemnation. We tripled our profits in fact when we did this. And now here is the data showing we know it's from those personality types, as we tracked them after launch too.
7.) By a set of self serving rationalisations about sports, general unfairness, and more references to the families we had to feed, the moral issue of exchanging responsibility towards the overall happiness of a minority with a lack of self control, for a tripling in our profits by changing only that one metric, totally disappeared.
8.) We did not cross check whether the tendency to post on forums co-relates to the tendency to also respond to polling data, and we were thus getting our original data biased by the exact same masochistic minority on the forums. We did not ever ask if we should have listened to that polling in case it was them again, just as we now will not listen to the public forums because we don't care what they have to say in that setting.
... Only that last one is my paraphrase of the first bit of information, and basic awareness, that is missing from the presentation.
The rest is, unfortunately, almost exactly what Ben Cousins says. Oh, I hate to be the proof of Godwin's Law, especially for someone who takes such pains to show us the wacky, skateboarding, nature loving, bicycle riding people who worked at EAsy, I really do; but what we have here is the perfect example of The Banality Of Evil. The bland disassociation from consequences or meaning. The reduction of people down to metrics. It's all there, it really is.
Now as one of the 78% who never post at the forums and, apart from a purchase when I first started the game I think, haven't paid anything since, normally I'd expect to stay quiet as a crab as the temperature slowly creeps up but... But Ben honest to goodness makes the argument that the ability to get more money out of people who aren't strong enough to say "no" is a good thing. He puts a percentage figure to that minority, defines them, admits that he's aware they claim to suffer from his actions... and casually justifies exchanging their outrage for more of their money all the same.
You can draw your own parallels according to taste; The drug pusher who justifies dealing as earning him money to escape, and as long as the sold drugs stay in the run down areas he's escaping... "Sure, I know they hate themselves for doing it... but they come back to me all the same."
Domestic violence? "I hit her, but it's for her own good, if she really didn't believe that, she'd leave". Do I hear a sharp intake of breath? I hope so... and my point is, if you didn't draw that exact same breath when you heard Ben's presentation, just because it came in a respectable format and in a calm, educated voice rather than screaching hate and bile in a Xeroxed pamphlet... well your moral compass needs seriously recalibrating if you didn't gasp. Because listen to what he actually says, and he makes it quite clear that the customer states they're being abused, and he explains it doesn't matter what they say, because they keep crawling back, and no one else makes too much of a fuss about the noise they did make where it counts.
You can argue that his real sin, as the Koreans try to warn him, is that EA not get caught not caring about it; but Ben doesn't even show awareness that public impression counts in any wider sense... again, listen to all nearly 50 minutes of the presentation. He genuinely doesn't seem to understand anyone might be shocked by the dreadful algebra he's presenting.
I personally don't fly that particular ship (my fleet is not t5 military and my main is a sci/sci) but I take your point.
The argument that is presented in the video is pretty much: Pay to win exists because people wanted it. If people didn't want it, we'd be broke and the game would be gone.
Like it or lump it, that's true. But that doesn't mean it's morally right.
I would like to see some evidence to show that Cryptic are not Greedy... Look around you... Bugs that have been here for almost 2-3 years have gone unfixed, a lockbox system that Cryptic refuses to post probability figures for because that would probably discourage people from getting it... I have a few more points if you are interested.
- Trying to remove a decent number of Fleet Marks because players progressing too fast. The Fleet Starbase system has been out for almost a year now.
The fleet marks awarded from the Foundry were easily exploited in their original form and easily farmed faster than official fleet content in their updated form.
Cryptic were heavy handed in removing them but the complaints would have come even if they'd released the increased FM from other sources in the same patch.
- Limited content development compared to release of new ships and profit driven items... etc... You can argue that the Dev team that develops content is not the same as the ship designers but then what is the Content Devs doing rather then twiddling their thumbs?
They're delivering the type of content they're employed to, mission content usually comes with events, featured episodes and season updates, ships come whenever they're finished.
- Ridiculous Starbase progression products. Tier 2 Military Shipyard costs 120,000 Dilithium which is hard unless you are part of a large, "faceless" Fleet.
Assuming everyone dumps their daily dilithium into the projects and gets the full 8000, you only need a fleet of 15 to match that everyday. Hardly a large faceless fleet.
- Completely Pointless Featured Projects, which continue to serve no usual purpose and are not worth the 200,000 Dilithium asked for them. They are not even worth 10,000.
Featured projects are vanity projects for larger fleets to give a source of Fleetmarks and have a visual reward at the end of it. It's not intended for every fleet to achieve them.
Not to mention, the "Stealth Nerf" to private PvP which only came in this week and was only added to the patch notes during the game downtime so that minimum people would be away of the change.
It was a last minute addition intended to prevent people from easily farming Fleet Marks, you know, the exact same reason they were so heavy handed in removing FM from the Foundry in the first place.
I am sure that lots and lots of people could offer additional reasons why Cryptic's reputation is considered to be worse then a politicians. Because they have repeatedly promised things and failed to deliver to the standard demanded by the player-base.
MMO player bases are hard to please anyway, so are Star Trek fans. As such the devs are held to unrealistic expectations anyway.
However, I am sure if the Z-Store broke for any reason, the entire of Cryptic Studios would be straight on to fixing it.
Yes, for the exact same reason that if any businesses primary way of making money stopped working everyone capable of fixing it would drop whatever they were doing to fix it.
The whole concept of Dilithium is Pay 2 Win, especially in terms of Fleets.
A currency that is available through ingame play is the exact opposite of Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win only applies to things where you cannot obtain either the same item, or one of very nearly comparable worth, through ingame means.
Dilithium can be acquired through play. I think your definition of Pay 2 Win is not realistic; if you're expecting that "Free 2 Play" means "this is no longer a for-profit venture, and you can't buy anything except hats and dye packs", I'm afraid there will never be a successful MMO that meets your definition.
This is a very expensive game to produce and operate.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
The fleet marks awarded from the Foundry were easily exploited in their original form and easily farmed faster than official fleet content in their updated form.
Which Cryptic knew, and allowed anyway - then blamed the player base for 'using' it.
Cryptic were heavy handed in removing them but the complaints would have come even if they'd released the increased FM from other sources in the same patch.
Not nearly as bad as it was trying to sneak them out and then tell players 'tough nuts' only to, yet again, realize it was an enormous blunder and do what they should have done in the first place - bolster FM's elsewhere to compensate. They make mistakes any person with 10% control over their brain and a reasonable grasp of common sense could avoid.
They're delivering the type of content they're employed to, mission content usually comes with events, featured episodes and season updates, ships come whenever they're finished.
When is the last time they actually released something when it was 'finished'? Everything they release is rampant with bugs/problems and is either untested on Tribble or tested and players give feedback about said problems yet it goes to Holodeck without any changes whatsoever. Give examples.
Featured projects are vanity projects for larger fleets to give a source of Fleetmarks and have a visual reward at the end of it. It's not intended for every fleet to achieve them.
Pointless resource sinks that do nothing for a system that really does mostly nothing in of itself other than dispense end game gear in a gated system that succinctly locks a portion of the player base out of it permanently unless they bend to Cryptic's ever changing demands upon players to play the game they want you to. Why the hell would anyone hang out on their Fleet Starbase for more than a few minutes at a time? There is **** all to do there, and the only thing people care about these 'Featured Projects' is once they are done they want a way to turn them OFF.
Maybe not, but after 6 months of ESTFs and getting no prototype drops I'll happily hand over Dilithium for them.
It's hardly like Dilithium's hard to come by these days, last week I was earning nearly 10k a day without the mining claims.
Every time I see someone whine about 'never getting my X piece(s)' from the old STF system I giggle. It's absurd to say you played every day or even every other day for 6 months STRAIGHT and NEVER got one piece of Tech. It's absolutely false and until we see any 'metrics' to the contrary it's mathematically impossible. I played it every day for a month and had 2/3 pieces for 2 different sets. I was not lucky either. Also finished 2 complete Borg sets just saving my EDC which is much better than paying DIL and commodities through the nose with this Rep system. I would never waste DIL on Fleet projects, or any other projects for that matter...just my choice. But again who cares if you are pulling in 10k or even 20k in DIL daily - only 8k of that is usable per 24 hours.
It was a last minute addition intended to prevent people from easily farming Fleet Marks, you know, the exact same reason they were so heavy handed in removing FM from the Foundry in the first place.
Congratulations, you have now described a stealth nerf.
The rest is, unfortunately, almost exactly what Ben Cousins says. Oh, I hate to be the proof of Godwin's Law, especially for someone who takes such pains to show us the wacky, skateboarding, nature loving, bicycle riding people who worked at EAsy, I really do; but what we have here is the perfect example of The Banality Of Evil. The bland disassociation from consequences or meaning. The reduction of people down to metrics. It's all there, it really is.
Now as one of the 78% who never post at the forums and, apart from a purchase when I first started the game I think, haven't paid anything since, normally I'd expect to stay quiet as a crab as the temperature slowly creeps up but... But Ben honest to goodness makes the argument that the ability to get more money out of people who aren't strong enough to say "no" is a good thing. He puts a percentage figure to that minority, defines them, admits that he's aware they claim to suffer from his actions... and casually justifies exchanging their outrage for more of their money all the same.
You can draw your own parallels according to taste; The drug pusher who justifies dealing as earning him money to escape, and as long as the sold drugs stay in the run down areas he's escaping... "Sure, I know they hate themselves for doing it... but they come back to me all the same."
Domestic violence? "I hit her, but it's for her own good, if she really didn't believe that, she'd leave". Do I hear a sharp intake of breath? I hope so... and my point is, if you didn't draw that exact same breath when you heard Ben's presentation, just because it came in a respectable format and in a calm, educated voice rather than screaching hate and bile in a Xeroxed pamphlet... well your moral compass needs seriously recalibrating if you didn't gasp. Because listen to what he actually says, and he makes it quite clear that the customer states they're being abused, and he explains it doesn't matter what they say, because they keep crawling back, and no one else makes too much of a fuss about the noise they did make where it counts.
All your analogies are missing right now is Sarah McLaughlin and a montage of sad-looking dogs. Seriously, you've gone straight through a cavalcade of face-palm worthy emotional appeal complete with analogizing video games to Adolf Eichmann. Video games to the banality of industrial genocide. Hooboy.
And not once did you even stop to consider that nobody is forcing Cousins' customers at gun-point, physical-addiction-point, or physical-abuse-point to keep saying 'Yes.'
You are the customer. You have the fundamental right to say 'No.' Nobody is forcing you to say 'Yes.' If you believe the company is gouging you for Pay2Win, or in Cousins' case they're even admitting as such, then its your responsibility to either continue to play along, moderate your game play, or just walk away. If you loudly proclaim how Pay2Win blows and you'll never spend another dime on the game, and then turn around and continue to spend many dimes on the game, then that's not the publisher's problem. At some point, personal responsibility has to kick in. If you can't say No, then that's your problem too.
I've been discussing this issue with my fleet and their answer is very simple on the matter.
If you go down to the pub every Thursday with your friends and enjoy it but don't buy a drink, you can't complain when the pub closes down. You don't have to spend any money, just sit there and enjoy the ambiance but it doesn't mean the bartender will give you a free drink.
If the pub sells more than one drink or has a pool table that costs is that greedy or just trying to provide you with another method of spending your money without having to have a drink?
The difference is that when things are so OP they make even paid for things look terrible in comparison, that is where the problem lies.
AMS used to be hated because it couldn't be cleared and could be chained easily and consistently.
Aceton Assimilators and Plasmonic Leech are hated because insulators don't work on them at all.
I don't mind paying for things that might give me a little bit of a more competitive edge. (the faster, lighter bike analogy) but not something that gives a completely unfair advantage (being able to push others off their bikes.) Which is the direction that some of these consoles and ships are heading in.
That is the fine line that Cryptic are treading and should try to be aware of when they market their goods.
A currency that is available through ingame play is the exact opposite of Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win only applies to things where you cannot obtain either the same item, or one of very nearly comparable worth, through ingame means.
Dilithium can be acquired through play. I think your definition of Pay 2 Win is not realistic; if you're expecting that "Free 2 Play" means "this is no longer a for-profit venture, and you can't buy anything except hats and dye packs", I'm afraid there will never be a successful MMO that meets your definition.
This is a very expensive game to produce and operate.
I think, with respect that is a rather dull argument. Dilithium can be acquired in game but how many things cost more then the 8k a day cap they put on Dilithium? Well not many things... the point is that Cryptic puts in this great ways of getting dilithium in game and then slaps a cap on it to stop people from developing too fast.
Presenting a much "easier" option of buying Zen and converting it into Dilthium. If they really weren't that greedy, the would make the Dilithium converted out of Zen into ORE and have to be refined under the 8k cap each day. If they were really the concerned about a play developing dilthium too fast.
Comments
Of course the problem is that Cryptic thinks Pay 2 Win is alright, especially if its making them money. They are not likely to fix anything while it makes them money.
Cryptic = Greedy
There is no point talking about this, its not going to change anything and ultimately, its the way the game is going to go.
Talk about why we can't have nice things.....
Look, this game has only one thing that is truly P2W. The fleet ships are literally the only thing that's P2W, and even those can be obtained for free.
For me Pay 2 Win is when there are game-breakingly good items that only paying customers have access to.
And there isn't too much of that content.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
I think it was something like the third post in that I said there's nothing to win in this game, so P2W seems superfluous.
Unless, of course, they were constantly updating ship types each month, and scaling content to parity with those new ships, under the expectation that I'll buy a new ship each month; that's the only way I can see P2W really entering this game, and as much as it kind of happened to me already that was due to my timing in picking up the game moreso than it was by Cryptic's design.
Well that's not exactly my view, my view is that the current content makes grinding something that people suffer through and that I don't like to see.
But I would like some kind of equality between those who are cash-rich and those who are time-rich. As it stands those with more time to play than me have an advantage I would like to see more options for those of us with less time to be able to buy progress.
That the current content people have to grind is terribly tedious is unfortunate either way you look at it.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
I agree.
Not really. There's plenty of stuff too do, it's just that not everything is worth doing due to crappy rewards.
Everything is obtainable in game with some grind.What can be a problem is the amount of time you need to spend grinding to get certain items (for 1 lobi store console 200 lobi you need to grind @50 master key worth of ec ....if those are the p2w things in the game )...grind in this game is a problem not only for f2p players (reputation system)
as for pvp ....this game will never have good 1 vs 1 pvp .Team pvp in this game is brilliant and if the game would have some kind of pvp tutorial (in which people to learn about distribute shields and how and when to use buffs) we'd see many many people playing pvp not complaining about how "escort popped my ship".
The game has rewards? lol
I thought everything is in your personal grinding list a.k.a reputation system
Your literal interpretation of the term 'pay-to-win' is a poor argument. No game would actually sell a guaranteed win. What games do sell is items that give better odds at winning. Like the Jem Hadar Attack Ship.
I see you developed a small obsession about that ship.:rolleyes:
how is that ship p2w?just buy one from exchange.What stops you to buy a ship from exchange?Is it grind? If its grind maybe everyone should get everything from tutorial (the box where you get your first kit and weapon) and have no reason to play.
Not even in pve where damage/dps are important to "win" the first place in sb24 JHAS is p2w .There are ships which deliver more damage than JHAS.
Because there is nothing more to a ship than dee pee es.
You've made those statements several times now, but I haven't seen you present any supporting evidence. Could you provide some reasons why you feel that way?
Unless you truly think there's no point talking about this, which seems unlikely, since you keep talking about this.
so for you p2w is both real world money and ec?
you need the game version with all ingame items for free in the tutorial.No reason to play or grind.:D
if you buy it with ec you dont care about that guy who paid 250 dollars for it and wants few hundred millions ec unless you forced that person to spend money .
still I dont know how is that ship p2w .Win what? PvP 1 vs 1 is s*** with or without that ship.In team pvp with a dedicated healer you will want a escort with more dps (defiant ,mvam) .In team pvp you will rarely see escorts dogfights to need jhas turn rate.
I know someone who thinks the way jhas looks makes it op (easy to see the 45degrees dhc firing arc ) :rolleyes:
I would like to see some evidence to show that Cryptic are not Greedy... Look around you... Bugs that have been here for almost 2-3 years have gone unfixed, a lockbox system that Cryptic refuses to post probability figures for because that would probably discourage people from getting it... I have a few more points if you are interested.
- Trying to remove a decent number of Fleet Marks because players progressing too fast. The Fleet Starbase system has been out for almost a year now.
- Limited content development compared to release of new ships and profit driven items... etc... You can argue that the Dev team that develops content is not the same as the ship designers but then what is the Content Devs doing rather then twiddling their thumbs?
- Ridiculous Starbase progression products. Tier 2 Military Shipyard costs 120,000 Dilithium which is hard unless you are part of a large, "faceless" Fleet.
- Completely Pointless Featured Projects, which continue to serve no usual purpose and are not worth the 200,000 Dilithium asked for them. They are not even worth 10,000.
- Reputation Items Require Dilithium which you didn't need to get the M.A.C.O, Omega Force or Borg sets in the past.
Not to mention, the "Stealth Nerf" to private PvP which only came in this week and was only added to the patch notes during the game downtime so that minimum people would be away of the change.
I am sure that lots and lots of people could offer additional reasons why Cryptic's reputation is considered to be worse then a politicians. Because they have repeatedly promised things and failed to deliver to the standard demanded by the player-base.
However, I am sure if the Z-Store broke for any reason, the entire of Cryptic Studios would be straight on to fixing it.
The whole concept of Dilithium is Pay 2 Win, especially in terms of Fleets.
You don't get it. It doesn't matter who actually pays the money, the problem with pay-to-win is that the company running it makes money by selling power in the store. It doesn't matter if you pay the money or an intermediary does.
Which statement has no evidence? I think it's abundantly clear that the best ships are available from the store (either direct, through lockboxes or fleet modules.) I think it's completely proven that every such ship is bought with cash that PWE receives from some source, even if it's not the end user. This shows that PWE and Cryptic are making money by selling top-level power for cash. That is pay-to-win.
Now as for Cryptic being Greedy, I wouldn't necessarily go that far. Cryptic is a business that wants to make money. It's unfortunate that they make more money by denying their motivations with regards to pay-to-win. It's dishonest and perhaps not entirely ethical, but as they say, "it's just business."
There's NOTHING in STO that you can't get through playing the game normally.
*EDIT: stupid laptop lost the rest of my post and I'm too tired to retype it.*
Maybe you are forgetting the fact that no 'free' account can have more than 10 million EC without an 'upgrade' to Gold for at least a month, not even counting the fact the Bug ship costs 500 million+ EC by itself? It's comical.
The only way that statement is true is if you plan to play for the rest of your life. I'd be interested to see you break that down into farming EC to buy keys to lock boxes and continue attempting to get all of those ships without spending a single dime over and over and over until you have them all. Very interested.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
This is completely untrue and shows a disturbing lack of even basic research.
It costs all of 500 Zen to remove the cap. Or, with the exchange in it's current state, about a whopping 7 days worth of Dilithium. That's assuming of course you don't even DOFF farm on your KDF slot. Which would be really stupid being as contraband just falls out of the sky over there.
Also, I didn't pay a penny for an Odyssey bundle. Just saying.
Why would anyone not suffering from OCD "need" all the ships?
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
My wish list for Cap'n Denny is: Fleet Patrol Escort, then later on down the road a Regent, Armitage, MVAE, Ody, maybe a Vesta, maybe a Tac Refit, and maybe a Fleet Escort if/when my fleet finally hits Tier 2.
But the thing is: I'm in no hurry for anything but the FPE. The Emden is my gray lady. :cool: All the others are luxuries, I can take my time saving up Zen and exchanged Zen for them. And I have no real desire for any of the lockbox ships, since, well, lockbox. And I honestly don't think any of them would be ships my Fed would want to pilot.
I can understand players being vocal about getting the best stuff in the shortest amount of time, but understand not all of us are in such a hurry.
The argument he makes, with no apparent understanding, is simply this.
1.) We attempted to discover what items, if any, people were willing to buy in game by public responses to a system of polling.
2.) From this data, and data taken from Korea that warned us there would be a perceived emotional rejection to some of the concepts, we discovered we could make a lot more money if we didn't abide by our earlier promises to various forums to not introduce those concepts. I feel guilty about this, but I have a family to feed.
3.) We discovered that compromising on our promises had no overall effect on retention, recruitment, the average customers' average spending... Every average metric remains unchanged except;
4.) We did find, apart from the disastrous and offended media coverage, there was a minority of customers, whom we place at around 2% of people judging by their linked forum account responses, who would react in an emotionally upset way if we passed these changes. 78% of players never read or posted on forums, but this 2% did, and posted loudly and negatively.
5.) We began tracking these specific individuals and discovered that despite the immense emotional distress they stated we were causing, they would still spend money on something they hated doing all the same. I am pleased to share some of their emotional posts and a little of their actual spending habits, as specific individuals, with you the world.
6.) We discovered that, by exchanging our principles on pay to win items, we could thus generate a lot more profit from those individuals, and from those who couldn't bear to lose in our game, in exchange for only a rise in public condemnation. We tripled our profits in fact when we did this. And now here is the data showing we know it's from those personality types, as we tracked them after launch too.
7.) By a set of self serving rationalisations about sports, general unfairness, and more references to the families we had to feed, the moral issue of exchanging responsibility towards the overall happiness of a minority with a lack of self control, for a tripling in our profits by changing only that one metric, totally disappeared.
8.) We did not cross check whether the tendency to post on forums co-relates to the tendency to also respond to polling data, and we were thus getting our original data biased by the exact same masochistic minority on the forums. We did not ever ask if we should have listened to that polling in case it was them again, just as we now will not listen to the public forums because we don't care what they have to say in that setting.
... Only that last one is my paraphrase of the first bit of information, and basic awareness, that is missing from the presentation.
The rest is, unfortunately, almost exactly what Ben Cousins says. Oh, I hate to be the proof of Godwin's Law, especially for someone who takes such pains to show us the wacky, skateboarding, nature loving, bicycle riding people who worked at EAsy, I really do; but what we have here is the perfect example of The Banality Of Evil. The bland disassociation from consequences or meaning. The reduction of people down to metrics. It's all there, it really is.
Now as one of the 78% who never post at the forums and, apart from a purchase when I first started the game I think, haven't paid anything since, normally I'd expect to stay quiet as a crab as the temperature slowly creeps up but... But Ben honest to goodness makes the argument that the ability to get more money out of people who aren't strong enough to say "no" is a good thing. He puts a percentage figure to that minority, defines them, admits that he's aware they claim to suffer from his actions... and casually justifies exchanging their outrage for more of their money all the same.
You can draw your own parallels according to taste; The drug pusher who justifies dealing as earning him money to escape, and as long as the sold drugs stay in the run down areas he's escaping... "Sure, I know they hate themselves for doing it... but they come back to me all the same."
Domestic violence? "I hit her, but it's for her own good, if she really didn't believe that, she'd leave". Do I hear a sharp intake of breath? I hope so... and my point is, if you didn't draw that exact same breath when you heard Ben's presentation, just because it came in a respectable format and in a calm, educated voice rather than screaching hate and bile in a Xeroxed pamphlet... well your moral compass needs seriously recalibrating if you didn't gasp. Because listen to what he actually says, and he makes it quite clear that the customer states they're being abused, and he explains it doesn't matter what they say, because they keep crawling back, and no one else makes too much of a fuss about the noise they did make where it counts.
You can argue that his real sin, as the Koreans try to warn him, is that EA not get caught not caring about it; but Ben doesn't even show awareness that public impression counts in any wider sense... again, listen to all nearly 50 minutes of the presentation. He genuinely doesn't seem to understand anyone might be shocked by the dreadful algebra he's presenting.
How many folks in this thread are flying a Fleet Assault Cruiser? How did you obtain that ship?
The argument that is presented in the video is pretty much: Pay to win exists because people wanted it. If people didn't want it, we'd be broke and the game would be gone.
Like it or lump it, that's true. But that doesn't mean it's morally right.
The fleet marks awarded from the Foundry were easily exploited in their original form and easily farmed faster than official fleet content in their updated form.
Cryptic were heavy handed in removing them but the complaints would have come even if they'd released the increased FM from other sources in the same patch.
They're delivering the type of content they're employed to, mission content usually comes with events, featured episodes and season updates, ships come whenever they're finished.
Assuming everyone dumps their daily dilithium into the projects and gets the full 8000, you only need a fleet of 15 to match that everyday. Hardly a large faceless fleet.
Featured projects are vanity projects for larger fleets to give a source of Fleetmarks and have a visual reward at the end of it. It's not intended for every fleet to achieve them.
Maybe not, but after 6 months of ESTFs and getting no prototype drops I'll happily hand over Dilithium for them.
It's hardly like Dilithium's hard to come by these days, last week I was earning nearly 10k a day without the mining claims.
It was a last minute addition intended to prevent people from easily farming Fleet Marks, you know, the exact same reason they were so heavy handed in removing FM from the Foundry in the first place.
Not a Stealth nerf.
MMO player bases are hard to please anyway, so are Star Trek fans. As such the devs are held to unrealistic expectations anyway.
Jim Ross said it best.
Yes, for the exact same reason that if any businesses primary way of making money stopped working everyone capable of fixing it would drop whatever they were doing to fix it.
Cryptic are running a business, not a charity.
A currency that is available through ingame play is the exact opposite of Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win only applies to things where you cannot obtain either the same item, or one of very nearly comparable worth, through ingame means.
Dilithium can be acquired through play. I think your definition of Pay 2 Win is not realistic; if you're expecting that "Free 2 Play" means "this is no longer a for-profit venture, and you can't buy anything except hats and dye packs", I'm afraid there will never be a successful MMO that meets your definition.
This is a very expensive game to produce and operate.
Which Cryptic knew, and allowed anyway - then blamed the player base for 'using' it.
Not nearly as bad as it was trying to sneak them out and then tell players 'tough nuts' only to, yet again, realize it was an enormous blunder and do what they should have done in the first place - bolster FM's elsewhere to compensate. They make mistakes any person with 10% control over their brain and a reasonable grasp of common sense could avoid.
When is the last time they actually released something when it was 'finished'? Everything they release is rampant with bugs/problems and is either untested on Tribble or tested and players give feedback about said problems yet it goes to Holodeck without any changes whatsoever. Give examples.
Pointless resource sinks that do nothing for a system that really does mostly nothing in of itself other than dispense end game gear in a gated system that succinctly locks a portion of the player base out of it permanently unless they bend to Cryptic's ever changing demands upon players to play the game they want you to. Why the hell would anyone hang out on their Fleet Starbase for more than a few minutes at a time? There is **** all to do there, and the only thing people care about these 'Featured Projects' is once they are done they want a way to turn them OFF.
Every time I see someone whine about 'never getting my X piece(s)' from the old STF system I giggle. It's absurd to say you played every day or even every other day for 6 months STRAIGHT and NEVER got one piece of Tech. It's absolutely false and until we see any 'metrics' to the contrary it's mathematically impossible. I played it every day for a month and had 2/3 pieces for 2 different sets. I was not lucky either. Also finished 2 complete Borg sets just saving my EDC which is much better than paying DIL and commodities through the nose with this Rep system. I would never waste DIL on Fleet projects, or any other projects for that matter...just my choice. But again who cares if you are pulling in 10k or even 20k in DIL daily - only 8k of that is usable per 24 hours.
Congratulations, you have now described a stealth nerf.
I'm pretty sure there's thousands of players who already know that based on the money they spent on this game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
All your analogies are missing right now is Sarah McLaughlin and a montage of sad-looking dogs. Seriously, you've gone straight through a cavalcade of face-palm worthy emotional appeal complete with analogizing video games to Adolf Eichmann. Video games to the banality of industrial genocide. Hooboy.
And not once did you even stop to consider that nobody is forcing Cousins' customers at gun-point, physical-addiction-point, or physical-abuse-point to keep saying 'Yes.'
You are the customer. You have the fundamental right to say 'No.' Nobody is forcing you to say 'Yes.' If you believe the company is gouging you for Pay2Win, or in Cousins' case they're even admitting as such, then its your responsibility to either continue to play along, moderate your game play, or just walk away. If you loudly proclaim how Pay2Win blows and you'll never spend another dime on the game, and then turn around and continue to spend many dimes on the game, then that's not the publisher's problem. At some point, personal responsibility has to kick in. If you can't say No, then that's your problem too.
If you go down to the pub every Thursday with your friends and enjoy it but don't buy a drink, you can't complain when the pub closes down. You don't have to spend any money, just sit there and enjoy the ambiance but it doesn't mean the bartender will give you a free drink.
If the pub sells more than one drink or has a pool table that costs is that greedy or just trying to provide you with another method of spending your money without having to have a drink?
The difference is that when things are so OP they make even paid for things look terrible in comparison, that is where the problem lies.
AMS used to be hated because it couldn't be cleared and could be chained easily and consistently.
Aceton Assimilators and Plasmonic Leech are hated because insulators don't work on them at all.
I don't mind paying for things that might give me a little bit of a more competitive edge. (the faster, lighter bike analogy) but not something that gives a completely unfair advantage (being able to push others off their bikes.) Which is the direction that some of these consoles and ships are heading in.
That is the fine line that Cryptic are treading and should try to be aware of when they market their goods.
I think, with respect that is a rather dull argument. Dilithium can be acquired in game but how many things cost more then the 8k a day cap they put on Dilithium? Well not many things... the point is that Cryptic puts in this great ways of getting dilithium in game and then slaps a cap on it to stop people from developing too fast.
Presenting a much "easier" option of buying Zen and converting it into Dilthium. If they really weren't that greedy, the would make the Dilithium converted out of Zen into ORE and have to be refined under the 8k cap each day.