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Wing Cannon Testing
ussultimatum
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Test: Starbase 234 (100% hit chance, to avoid DMG vs. ACC conversation)
Offensive Powers cycled: CRF 2 & 3, TT 1 x2, APB 1 x2 (no captain powers were used)
Distance: 2 to 3 km
DOFFs: 3 x SDO
NOTES:
Layout 1: (Wing Cannon slotted in Left most weapon slot for maximum Weapon Power)
4x MK XI Phaser DHC [CrtH]x3
1x Wing Cannon [DMG]x4
2x MK XI Phaser Turret [CrtH]x2 [CrtD]x1
4x MK XI Rare Phaser Relays
Layout 1 LOG - EDITED
Layout 2
4x MK XI Phaser DHC [CrtH]x3
1x MK XI Andorian Phaser DHC [ACC]x2 [DMG]x1
2x MK XI Phaser Turret [CrtH]x2 [CrtD]x1
4x MK XI Rare Phaser Relays
Layout 2 LOG - EDITED
As you can see the results were nearly identical (the non-wing cannon set up came out ahead, but the amount is insignificant), the Wing Cannon does not add any more DPS even in PvE with 100% chance to hit the target vs. a DHC that has no real advantage in PvE (Andorian with ACCx2).
This means it can only be worse in PvP.
Other issues:
1) Both tests utilized the Andorian Wing Cannon Platforms, you'll notice they don't show up in the logs anywhere - this is because they died nearly instantly.
2) I had a comment on the other Andorian consoles but as per tweets from Captain Gecko they are due for a buff of some kind. I'll reserve evaluation until then.
That being said as it stands now the Wing Cannon is not particularly good in PvE (it's not an improvement over a DHC, that is) and even worse in PvP, and the burst damage console is a very powerful (if extremely inaccurate in PvP) BO 3 you can only use on one specific cannon with 600% the cooldown of a typical BO 3.
Offensive Powers cycled: CRF 2 & 3, TT 1 x2, APB 1 x2 (no captain powers were used)
Distance: 2 to 3 km
DOFFs: 3 x SDO
NOTES:
- All 3 consoles were slotted for both tests.
- I did not use the console special attacks, my testing was strictly limited to CRF/CSV
- I did deploy the pets, however SB234 (Normal mode) destroyed them within 5 to 10s each time. They contributed nothing to the overall DPS.
Layout 1: (Wing Cannon slotted in Left most weapon slot for maximum Weapon Power)
4x MK XI Phaser DHC [CrtH]x3
1x Wing Cannon [DMG]x4
2x MK XI Phaser Turret [CrtH]x2 [CrtD]x1
4x MK XI Rare Phaser Relays
Layout 1 LOG - EDITED
Layout 2
4x MK XI Phaser DHC [CrtH]x3
1x MK XI Andorian Phaser DHC [ACC]x2 [DMG]x1
2x MK XI Phaser Turret [CrtH]x2 [CrtD]x1
4x MK XI Rare Phaser Relays
Layout 2 LOG - EDITED
As you can see the results were nearly identical (the non-wing cannon set up came out ahead, but the amount is insignificant), the Wing Cannon does not add any more DPS even in PvE with 100% chance to hit the target vs. a DHC that has no real advantage in PvE (Andorian with ACCx2).
This means it can only be worse in PvP.
Other issues:
1) Both tests utilized the Andorian Wing Cannon Platforms, you'll notice they don't show up in the logs anywhere - this is because they died nearly instantly.
2) I had a comment on the other Andorian consoles but as per tweets from Captain Gecko they are due for a buff of some kind. I'll reserve evaluation until then.
That being said as it stands now the Wing Cannon is not particularly good in PvE (it's not an improvement over a DHC, that is) and even worse in PvP, and the burst damage console is a very powerful (if extremely inaccurate in PvP) BO 3 you can only use on one specific cannon with 600% the cooldown of a typical BO 3.
Post edited by ussultimatum on
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Comments
My wing cannon platforms hardly ever die for starters and my wing cannon most definitely does additional dps to the tune of 10k (buffed).
It's an Awsome Pve ship, yet to take it into pvp but I'de imagine it will just be like any other escort.
It depends what skills you have trained in, Passive skills acquired, your gear not just whacking on any old weapons on any old ship then complaining it doesn't work.
Feel free to post your combat logs and testing.
I took mine into a PVP one on one with someone who simply wanted to see what it could do.
The player I was up against was a PVP'er, I am most certainly not.
I am however a more than capable escort pilot.
He was in a JHAS I was in the Tac version with all three consoles.
THe only real issues that came out of this were,
1. I am NOT a PVP player and as such was outskilled.
2. the JHAS turns on a frakking DIME, the Andorian ships do not. They turn well but are outclassed by the JHAS in turn rate.
My WCP deployments were responsible for my getting him to 50% health in roughly 5 seconds.
THe only problem with them is that they only fire when your Andorian Wing cannons fire.
If they were able to simple autofire they'd be great as they ALWAYS face the enemy.
You're making the very large assumption that for PvE the only way to be effective in a Kumari is to stack DHCs
In my tests I used a stand alone DHC and then a WC with no other cannons on the whole ship.
The issue is clearly how CRF interacts with the WCs. I have a suspicion the lower firing rate of the WC does not play well with CRF and instead of getting a DPS boost from the increased # of shots the only aspect of CRF that is effecting the WCs is the lowering of damage per shot.
I scanned through the whole in game combat log of each fight and looked at the hits. The WCs per the CRF description in stowiki should be routinely hitting in the 2500ish range on my ship given my base damage. However, the majority of the CRF hits with it were around 1000ish. My DHCs did much better.
The only way the WCs make up the differences to be close to the DHCs in the damage averages of his log is that they have big auto attack hits.
I'm not bad mouthing the ship because I love it. I survive just fine in STFs in the tac version. Bottom line is though I don't use any of the consoles and I don't mount the wing cannons and that's because the ship performs better without them.
1) My testing was to show a comparison of 4 DHC + 1 Wing Cannon vs. 5 DHCs. Nothing you do beyond that set up will change what the Wing Cannon is going to realistically do.
2) All cannons is still one of, if not the most, consistent DPS layouts, even in PvE. This is not an assumption, this is from over 12 months of grinding STFs and log parsing dozens of ships and ship layouts (quite literally, thousands of ESTFs. I have 10 L50 characters in full MK XII MACO / OMEGA / KHG and in most cases multiple sets, 90% of which was attained pre-rep system).
3) Feel free to show your own testing and data.
In my past testing I've found that the weapon you place in the left-most slot ALWAYS does more damage. I can't figure out why but I've seen it make up to a 5% difference.
When I've done weapon testing I've found the best way is to have only one of each type of weapon on the ship. That way the parser doesn't show you the sum of multiple weapons. Sure, you might run a skittle boat but if you're capable in eSTFs then you'll be fine in a skittle boat in normal STFs.
My conclusions are:
1. They are definitely not over powered. in fact other existing ships allow builds with e.g. higher DPS. (If you think they are overpowered that should be an incentive to optimize your current build).
2. They do not add a new game-play style. If you think it does I am interested to hear which type of game style with this ship cannot be done with any other existing ship.
3. No "must buy" ships (see point 1), just If you like them you buy them like I did for the collection.
Remark: Cryptic's strategy of nerfing and un-nerfing and creating variations etc is a method to create dynamics and sales. If everything would be completely static and predicable, game would feel more boring. And people would not feel the incentive to fiddle around, check out new stuff, etc for example to keep their build optimal.
Because your weapons fire from left to right and the left most weapon fires with the benefit of having weapon power maxed completely, where as the second third and fourth will have less as weapon power goes down from use of the previous weapons in the sequence.
1) That I can accept
2) You're operating under another assumption, this time that a 5/2 ship is functionally identical to a 4/3 ship. How many of those parses from the last year come from a 5/2 ship?
3) As of right now, you're the one with zero data (see 2). Unless and until you change that, others are under zero obligation to dispute (or support) your assertion with data of their own.
Um... For PVE it really doesnt matter if u uwze MK XIIII DMG x6 weaps or common mk x right, the npc's will blow up anyway because they are senselessly shooting at everything.
oh wait..
lulz.
I thought this game was PVE only. hahahahahh
Feel free to take this to the PvP forums and ask them if 5/2 vs. 4/3 and which one will have better output assuming DHCs/Turrets.
The answer is clear as day.
You mean other than what I posted?
Again, post your testing. I'm not sure what you'd be proving since you don't actually seem to have a point.
The Wing Cannon does not significantly improve DPS over a 5th DHC, and FWIW I did in fact slot it in the left most slot of the ship.
Testing is better than hyperbole.
Post your combat logs.
You are also missing the entire point of the testing.
Emphasis mine.
You're still not getting it are you? You're operating under a set of assumptions from a functionally different configuration that you havent actually bothered to test yet.
Your data is wing cannon versus DHC, not "optimal" loadout for a 5 fore slot ship. Fundamental difference.
Never argued it didn't, only that your premise (IE: 5 DHCs are better than anything else) is inherently flawed since you never actually bothered to test it, then went out of your way to preach how it's better than anything else in PvE.
No, you are the one not getting it.
1) You are making assumptions. You have no data to present.
2) You have missed the entire point of the thread, multiple times.
3) You are assuming that there is some other optimal layout and repeatedly refuse to post any data showing otherwise.
I'm done with you, either add to the thread and discuss the actual topic and not your continued DERAILMENT and show your data or I'm just going to ignore you.
Apparently, neither do you.
I've done nothing of the kind. You're the one who changed tack by running with the assumption that what works for older escorts automatically works for the Kumari.
Please quote for me where I have made any statement saying there is a superior build on a Kumari. You won't be able to, because I haven't. The only point I've been consistently making is that because of the fundamental change in the way the ship is setup (specifically the 5/2 weapon slottings) assumptions based around the "standard" escort layout (4/3) do not by definition transfer.
Assuming they do with zero testing is operating under a fundamentally questionable premise.
You're the one who made the following statement:
yet refuse to back it up with data on a 5 fore weapon ship. And I'm the one who's derailing things?
Bottom line: provide for me thorough logs showing 5 dhcs/2 turrets outperforming other builds and I'll happily concede the point. Unless and until you do, don't go around making unfounded statements about what is superior to what.
I for one will happily fly a tac version with 3/4 DHC, 1/0 WC, 1 Torp, 1 Cutter, and a mine launcher though. I already have a nearly optimal fleet defiant no desire to complete cut n paste his setup. But I also hate phasers in PvE, disruptors FTW!
Theres not really much point, I run a completely different setup to you.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128665397
Just ignore the beam overload lol, still yet to get back to esd.
Your testing also didn't indicate what Doff's you have on active duty as this is very important and also what skills your toon has.
We can go back and forth we data all you like but its not going to make much sense unless we run the same setup.
Having OCD tantrums.
For the love of Q: Switch that beam overload for another tactical team. U do not need 2 Eng team. I can, if I try VERY hard, ignore that photon tac console... but PLEASE remove the universal borg from tacticals. Throw as far away as u can that alt torpedo launcher and get another turret.
>.<
3x SDOs, nothing else.
If the 3 piece set was not equipped during testing, the wing cannons don't work with cannon powers.
Member since December 2009
That shared cannon buffs 3-piece bonus only pertains to Wing Cannon Platforms, not the Wing Cannons that are slotted directly on the ship.
To USS_Ultimatum: Which slot was the Kumari Wing Cannon mounted during testing? Since weapons fire from left to right, I can see the Wing Cannons mounted in the forward left slot getting the most benefit since it will be firing before other weapon energy drains kick in.
As others have noted, that's for the Wing Cannon Platform. The "Platform" is a console (ENG version) that launches Pets that are supposed to synch with your CRF/CSV.
It has nothing to do with the actual Wing Cannon that is slotted in your weapon slot.
That being said, I'll clairfy:
- All 3 consoles were slotted for both tests.
- I did not use the console special attacks, my testing was strictly limited to CRF/CSV
- I did deploy the pets, SB234 (Normal mode) destroyed them within 5 to 10s each time. They contributed nothing to the overall DPS.
I'll add this to the OP.Hmm, I'm not sure why.
Is anyone else having issues? I'll check the sharing permissions later today - although I'm pretty sure I set it to anyone with the link.
There are a lot of players with pre-concieved notions about ship mechanics and functions. They don't like the idea that their favorite set up might not be the "best" or "most optimal".
My goal was to test the DPS contribution of the Wing Cannons vs. a 5th DHC.
Left most slot to give it the most benefit.
I'll put that into the OP.
I think some people are taking this all a little too personally and getting nasty, if I may again state that I love the ship. My posting is solely about the issue with the Kumari wing cannons.
I'd like to point out discussions over where the weapon is loaded and what someone's build is or their skill set up is essentially irrelevant to what I am discussing. I will re post to move the conversation to the point.
I ran a test. I engaged the Tal Shiar in one of the Tau Dewa system and ran the fight start to end twice, once with the Kumari wing cannon and once with a DHC as the only cannon class of weapon on the ship.
My base damage on the wing cannons is just shy of 1800 and on my DHC is just shy of 700.
CRF was used. CRF reduces the damage per shot from a cannon but increases the total # of shots. This causes more chances for procs and there is a fixed % increase in the base damage output of 30/40/50% for the 3 skill levels of it.
I went through the combat log for each fight looking at the damage entries for the two weapons and specifically the CRF strings of fire.
The DHC #s were precisely what I would expect and anywhere from about 1000 to much higher depending on other skills like TT and APO. The wing cannons were a very different story. On all non crit hits their #s were no where near what they should have been. The DHC had many strings of CRF fire where there would be 3 hits 1000ish. The problem with the wing cannons was that was also about their #s as well. There should have been a number of strings of CRF fire from the wing cannons of at least 2500 and some higher given TT and APO, but there weren't any. Their crits were also not on par with what I would expect to see based on how CRF works with all other cannons.
Auto attack hits from the cannon did show #s you would expect to see from a 1700 base damage weapon, so the issue is clearly how they interact with CRF. I've always stated my hunch is CRF reduces the damage per shot at the front end of a string of 10 secs of rapid fire like it is supposed to. I don't think the Kumari wing cannons, because of the inherent slower rate of fire, can put out enough shots to make up the damage reduction after the ten seconds. Just my hunch, but that doesn't change the #s.
The consoles are a whole other discussion.
I did say "just ignore the beam overload I haven't got back to esd"....
As for the Eng Team you do realise by having two I always have a heal 15secs apart instead of 30?
As for the borg piece you might want to look at its stats, I mainly use it for its +5 weapon power the other consoles listed there only give a percentage boost the borg console does not.
Interesting.
I'd recommend the following:
That being said, when I get home I'll go through the hits to see if I can find patterns like you suggest where the Wing Cannon is not firing in fast succession when CRF is most likely activated and post that if it's feasible.