test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
ACR, AHCR or Odyssey, Which One?
orondis
Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
ACR, AHCR or Odyssey, Which One?
Out of the Fleet Assault Cruiser refit, the Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit and the tactical Odyssey, which cruiser should I pick as my main DPS cruiser across all my fed toons?
Note also that I have a preference for cannon builds and don't like torps (I find them ineffective and costly in skill points).
Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit
Pros:-
* 4 tactical skills, allowing me to make to take 2x tact teams and x2 cannon rapid fire.
* 4x tac consoles
Cons:-
Slower turnrate than the Excelsior.
Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
Pros:-
* Handles like a dream thanks to it's turnrate
* 4x tac consoles
Cons:-
* Only three tactical skills, which means I need to waste active doff space to decrease tact teams cooldown.
Odyssey
Pros:-
* Potentially room for *six* tactical skills. While that would decrease my overall tankiness, since I can tank a gate/tac-cube with three engineer powers in a stationary escort, I should have no problem with four.
* The seperation console gives it a huge boost in turn rate.
Cons:-
* Turnrate of a brick when not seperated. Given the cooldown of the seperation console,
* Rather expensive given the useless gimmick escort.
* Only three tac consoles.
* Can't run 2x directed energy modulation as that'd leave me with only two tanking skills (though those will probably be more than enough, I do like RSP as a safety net)
Neutral:-
* Three science consoles meaning it's possible to take 3x field gens. Problem with that is that you really only need one for an ESTF.
I'm leaning toward the Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit personally.
Out of the Fleet Assault Cruiser refit, the Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit and the tactical Odyssey, which cruiser should I pick as my main DPS cruiser across all my fed toons?
Note also that I have a preference for cannon builds and don't like torps (I find them ineffective and costly in skill points).
Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit
Pros:-
* 4 tactical skills, allowing me to make to take 2x tact teams and x2 cannon rapid fire.
* 4x tac consoles
Cons:-
Slower turnrate than the Excelsior.
Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
Pros:-
* Handles like a dream thanks to it's turnrate
* 4x tac consoles
Cons:-
* Only three tactical skills, which means I need to waste active doff space to decrease tact teams cooldown.
Odyssey
Pros:-
* Potentially room for *six* tactical skills. While that would decrease my overall tankiness, since I can tank a gate/tac-cube with three engineer powers in a stationary escort, I should have no problem with four.
* The seperation console gives it a huge boost in turn rate.
Cons:-
* Turnrate of a brick when not seperated. Given the cooldown of the seperation console,
* Rather expensive given the useless gimmick escort.
* Only three tac consoles.
* Can't run 2x directed energy modulation as that'd leave me with only two tanking skills (though those will probably be more than enough, I do like RSP as a safety net)
Neutral:-
* Three science consoles meaning it's possible to take 3x field gens. Problem with that is that you really only need one for an ESTF.
I'm leaning toward the Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit personally.
Previously Alendiak
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Post edited by orondis on
0
Comments
The Tactical Odyssey is the only one of those that is an account wide purchase. So if you want one ship for all your toons, that's the easiest on the wallet. Unfortunately ...
The Odyssey is the worst choice of the ones you list for using cannons.
The Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit's pretty amazing. But you know, Tier 5 Starbase and all that. If you have access to it, and don't mind spending for each toon, it's probably the option best suited to your tastes.
I used to use that build a while ago and while I found it mostly successful, the aux drain really hindered transfer shield strength and hazard emitters. 2x DEM3 was real nice though.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Tac Oddy is not something I'd recommend. Sci Oddy may be better (power bonuses can be completely off set by adjusting your power settings - imagine that).
AHC - R is okay, but doesn't have the ability to have two copies of FAW and Torp Spread.
Cannons make sense if you use turrets in back for scatter volley or rapid fire... but they are weaker. AC - R has the wide arc Torp which makes broadsiding viable for the cruiser.
What he said.
Excel is your best bet in this case, since using an Aux2Bat build requires LOTS of engineering slots... which the Excel has plenty of. And it also needs a higher turn rate for cannons, which the Excel has. And it only requires a small number of Tac slots, which the Excel still has. Basically this idea is best.
It also depends if you are going all energy or will be using a torp with it, as if you are not using a torp, the 2nd ensign tac slot on the Fleet Ac will go to waste since you only need 1 TT with Aux2bat. If using a torp you might want that second ensign tac slot instead of having a 3rd ensign eng slot. I use the wide angle torp and TS1 in the Fleet AC myself so prefer that layout.
What...
Cruisers broadside that's their thing regardless of cheese torp or not
You clearly haven't been on the recovering end of a 4 cannons 4 turret with DEMIII backed up by 4 tac consoles if you had you'd know beams play second fiddle to this all day long
The fleet acr is the one in my opinion if I had access to a tier 5 fleet it would be sat there heading up my line of ships
You are correct, I haven't, I've been on the receiving end of that kinda build from an escort only. I'm just offering a different build. Just as I think you are intending to do.
I, personally, was never satisfied with the single cannons. My Excel-R has just sat there for a long time. Though I'm not sure how I'd feel about that build if I couldn't chain DEM 3, I guess you could to 3 and 1 to keep it up. /shrug
Well the Oddy certainly looks to be out of the running.
I am, but I'm also a fan of larger starships, especially in Trek. Also it's nice to try to challenge yourself.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Currently I am running a 7 Tetryon beam array, Wide Angel torp in the fore, with my boffs being
Lieutenant Uni: Hazard Emitters 1, Transfer Shield Strength 2
Lt. Cmnd Tac: Tac Team 1, Fire at Will 2, Attack Pattern Omega 1
Ensign Tac: High Yield Torpedo
Com Engi: Emergency to Shields 1, Directed Energy Mod 1, Emergency to Weapons 3, Auxilary to Structural 3
Lt. Engi: Emergency to Shields 1, Emergency to Weapons 2
Is there anything I can do to improve what I have going on? Ala changing from Beam Arrays to Banks or Cannons? Or changing around my Boff slots? Or even changing energy types? Basically whatever I can to preserve the feeling of being a really awesome battleship, escorts just felt weird to play; either seeming like a fighter or just sitting still.
From what I have seen, your build is neither particularly heavy-hitting, and not particularly resilient by cruiser standards. The latter respect is particularly important because your survivability also dictates how well you can dish out damage: cruisers are meant to stay in a fight and slug it out.
The nice thing about the Assault Cruiser Refit is that it's one of the better offensive cruisers out there, but the thing is that it's kind of tricky to put together. It took me about three different equipment load-outs, countless boff ability swaps and two respecs before settling on a workable offensive/tanking build.
If you're going pure energy weapons in terms of skills, ditch the wide-angle. If not, keep it and pair it off with another projectile weapon located aft. Hargh'Peng and Breen Transphasic Cluster seem to be popular choices here, although pretty much anything could work.
Consider getting a Borg Cutting Beam and an Assimilated Module. Whether you want to get the Omega Plasma Torpedo or not is up to you, since that will depend on whether or not you spec into torpedoes. The three-item set proc could be nice, but I personally feel that it is too unreliable. As I have yet to reach Tier IV reputation, I cannot comment on the effectiveness of the torpedo launcher.
Nothing wrong here. Personal experience tells me that the AC needs a sci officer on hand with those oh-so-useful support heals. However, I keep getting this nagging feeling that I should at least try filling it with an Engineer or Tactical boff...
Tac Team is always useful, especially on a cruiser.
Fire at Will is pretty much required for any cruiser with beam arrays, and I would recommend at least level 2-3 as you have here. Level 1 may be manageable as a back-up, though.
Attack Pattern Omega is of questionable use, partly because it isn't particularly well-suited for cruisers and also because it is a terrible waste of your only Tactical Lt Commander slot. On a cruiser, Emergency Power abilities are generally more useful for boosts, especially where firing energy weapons are concerned. A better use of your Tactical Lt Commander slot would be Fire at Will 3, Torpedo Spread 3, High Yield Torpedo 3, or Attack Pattern Beta 2.
High Yield isn't a bad idea, but I'd recommend at least level 2. Torpedo Spread might be a better choice, although I'd recommend either another Tactical Team or Beam Overload if you are going beam-heavy.
Your Engineering layout is atrocious. What you've got here wouldn't stand a stiff breeze.
As an Engineer, you should always consider having AT LEAST one Engineering Team handy. The instant hull heal is good for emergencies and the ability to clear disabled subsystems can be a life-saver in a tight spot.
Directed Energy Modulation 1 is junk: you should always go for at least 2 or 3. Also, while DEM is usable with beams (especially in combination with Fire at Will), it is generally better with cannons.
All your Emergency Power abilities are badly laid out. You're not going to keep up your shields with just two level 1 abilities and Transfer Sheild Strength 2 alone. Likewise, you're not going to be able to cycle between your level 2 and 3 weapons when under fire.
Auxiliary to Structural 3 is alright, but you may also consider sacrificing it in favour of Directed Energy Modulation 3 or Eject Warp Plasma 3, depending on your build.
This is probably the most badly-planned (and essential) section of your build, so I will take the liberty of suggesting the following layout, to fit in with what you've already got.
Commander Eng
Engineering Team 1
Reverse Shield Polarity 1
Emergency Power to Weapons 3
Auxiliary to Structural 3
Lt Eng
Emergency Power to Shields 1
Emergency Power to Shields 2
Cycle Emergency Power to Shields abilities when in an intense fire fight.
Apply Engineering Team 1 when hull running low or when a subsystem has been disabled.
Constantly apply Auxiliary to Structural 3 whenever your hull receives damage.
Reverse Shield Polarity as a last resort, should your shields fall on two or more sides.
Mind you, I will admit that this was made up off the top of my head, and is not perfect. I get the feeling that one or two abilities aren't in the right place, and that the whole thing lacks solid shield-restoring capability.
Keep arrays.
Change your boff abilities.
Do not neglect your survivability.
that is true for PVP, on the other hand it is of no concern when playing PVE content.
as i see it, aux2batt build is the way to go for the excelsior and ACR, the only difference is that the ACR can support a torpedo power (spread or high yield) for it's 180 degree torpedo. The excelsior instead can support an engineering team 1 which is usefull.
so, for PVE the ACR would be my choice (either beams or cannons)...for PVP the excelsior (with beams)
But i'm not sure if a cruiser is viable for team PVP for the DD slot, better have a heal cruiser at which the oddy is probably among the best choices.
personally i use a tac oddy with an engi captain for PVE exclusively, for me it represents a perfect combination of tankiness and DD, while the saucer separation gives very high manuverability.
What are you smoking? Aux2SIF3 is hands down the best hull healing skill in the game. It leaves all forms of ET writhing in the dust. Huge heal and tiny cooldown, and doesn't interfere with anything on a non-Aux2Bat build. ET also interferes with TT, which is way more important. Engi debuffs are the least dangerous in the game, Viral Matrix is rarely used in PvP, and only Tholians and Warbirds use it to any reasonable effect in PvE. DEM is junk in whatever form you use. And replacing Aux2SIF3 (a premium ability by the way) with EWP3? Oh please!
Well this fellow wants to optimize offensive punch, so I'm offering options to him. In any case, Aux to Structural 3's strength depends on auxiliary power levels, which I am assuming that not everyone would care to maintain at a sufficiently high level to make good use of.
As for Engineering Team, I believe that there should always be at least one instance of it, as an emergency heal. It does not rely on auxiliary and the heal is respectable at all levels. TT takes back-seat if your hull has gone down below 50% and you've turned on Reverse Shield Polarity. And while Viral Matrix isn't that deadly, it is annoying, and the repeated interruptions of subsystems can TRIBBLE up your tempo.
EptS1 x2 (x1 with DCE), RSP2, RSF, TSS, TT1 x2 (x1 with Conn doff)
Considering such, below is my recommended engi setup for a Fleet AC. To adapt for a Fleet Exc, just add an ET1, and make sure you keep a TT1 (you should really get a Conn Officer for either build though).
EptS1, EptW2, RSP2, Aux2SIF3
EptS1, EptW2
(ET1)
With 3 blue or purple DCEs, you can remove 1 EptS and 1 EptW, which opens another option:
EptS1, RSP1, ????, Aux2SIF3
EptW1, RSP1
(ET1)
The other engi skills are just shiny garbage (except Aux2Batt, but that requires an entirely different setup).
In one build I used (note: this was a Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit)
Lt Eng - Emergency Power to Shields I, Auxiliary to Dampeners I
Cmd Eng - Emergency Power to Weapons I, Auxiliary to Dampeners I, Directed Energy Modulation II, Directed Energy Modulation III
Lt Sci - Hazard Emitters I, Transfer Shield Strength II
Ens Tac - Fire at Will I
LtC Tac - Tactical Team I, Attack Pattern Beta I, Attack Pattern Beta II
Eng Consoles: VR Neutronium Mk XII, Assimilated Module, Zero-Point Energy Conduit, Tachyokinetic Converter
Sci Consoles: 2 VR Field Generators Mk XII
Tac Consoles: 4 VR Disruptor Induction Coils Mk XII
Weapons Fore: 3x Spiral Wave Disruptors, 1 Kinetic Cutting Beam
Weapons Aft: 4x Spiral Wave Disruptors
Deflector, Engines, Shields - Mk XII Borg Set
Doffs: 2 Conn-Tactical Team Variants, 3 Damage Control Officers
With this build my average DPS at Starbase 234 was 4,928.13 and in ISE it was 6,593.69
Without Chaining Auxiliary to Dampeners - Speed: 21.89, Turn Rate: 11.8
Chaining Auxiliary to Dampeners - Speed: 31.09, Turn Rate: 17.6
I used the Kinetic Cutting Beam instead of the Wide Angle Quantum because the final average DPS was higher... and I killed things quicker with it.
With the right pilot, and some slight modifications to the BOff powers and swapping out some DOffs, it would be an easy transition to cannons and turrets.
Intriguing design. What possibility is there to merge this with an Aux2Batt build? I would like to use such a build on the Fleet Excelsior, with cannons/turrets.
None actually. It was posted as an alternative to an Aux2Batt build. It is not going to surpass an Aux2Batt build in DPS, but it will give better maneuverability and decent DPS (for a cruiser); while not being as squishy as the Aux2Batt builds. can be, as one would still be able to heal incoming damage. Time it right and you should be able to keep the boosts to speed and turn rate up consistently; also at full speed it would max out your defense rating.
My Engine Power was set at 55/25.
Don't forget Saucer sep. An ody is plenty nimble when separated.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Well, every moment that you don't have someone in your sights is lost DPS, right? Aiming with the front arc is easier in PvE than PvP, and I doubt that you could sustain that effective rate of DPS for long.
Tho my best times were in a cannon build ody... maybe if I was an avid PvPer it would become a concern, but it wasn't for me on the small scale. Again, used to turning an Atrox and VQ around, so a saucer sepped ody felt like I was gliding...
I also have never flown those other ships, so I may not know what I am missing. I could understand if we were talking an ody at turn 6, but she saucer seps... and even non-seperated I still don't have that much problem, I find it just as easy if not easier then maintaining a beam broadside.
If I actually found PvP in a P2W MMO a compelling experience then I'd probly try to specialize more for it. As it stands I treat it as the unsupported mini-game that it is.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I am gonna agree that Aux2SIF3 is not an ability I'd be open to replace. And I keep four Emergency to to X powers because that way I can always have a boost to my weapons and shields online. Is DEM really bad then? I was looking it as the only other semi-useful Engi offense power, but if its garbage I'll dump it for Reverse Shield Polarity.
On the subject of Attack Pattern Omega, I had read that it was the best over all pattern. Certainly willing to swap it back to Beta, as that is what I was using earlier. And so chaining Tac Teams would be better than the punch of High Yield after enemy shields drop?
Overall thanks for the advice thus far!
Tac Team chain is pretty important. There is little room in the tac cruisers' tac slots however, which is why I always say at least one Purple Conn Officer is essential, so you only have to use one copy of it. BFAW or BO are important to keep your spike or crowd damage up, and HY/TS complement those well. I personally cannot get myself to stop using TS3, so there is no room for an APO in my build. Hence I just stick with
BFAW1, APB1, TS3
TT1
For an Excelsior I reluctantly ditch the APB1, and go
TT1, BFAW2, TS3
Well, keep in mind that the effectiveness of the heal is VERY heavily dependent on Auxiliary power. You may want to adjust your power profile accordingly. As I don't know what your actual skills are like, I can't advise you with complete certainty as to your options.
The reason why I have told you to change your Emergency Powers layout is because you are not going to be able to cycle between all them at the same time. You can chain together two abilities but you can't chain all four of them all together because all Emergency Power abilities share cooldowns. From what I've been able to deduce, you will likely be spending most of your time juggling your two Emergency Power to Shield powers, as you seem to lack any reliable source of instant shield restoration. At best, Emergency Power to Weapons will be an ability of opportunity that you can use to open a fight, or whenever you aren't at risk.
Directed Energy Modulation isn't something you can rely on as a pure damage booster. At best, a captain specced fully into energy can use it to slightly augment their firepower, especially when using rapid-fire abilities like Fire at Will or Rapid Fire. However, you will need to get higher levels to actually make a noticeable impact and it only works decently on ships with lots of energy weapons.
Attack Pattern Omega isn't nearly as good for cruisers as escorts because cruisers don't need the immunity to teleport, the speed bonus, or even the damage resistance. With a cruiser, you want to spend your Tac slots on purely offensive powers, with the exception of Tactical Team.
And again, I need to know whether or not you place any emphasis on projectile weapons in your skillset. How often do you use projectile launchers, and most importantly, how often do they do their full damage against bare hulls?
The Emergancy powers work because when you hit EPW, it puts both the shields at 15s cd, while the other EPW to 30s cd. Thus 15s later I can hit shields, putting my other EPW to 15, other shield to 15, and so on. This method allows me to keep up both power bonuses at all times, the only downtime is 15s when I start the rotation.