Builds Vs Gear / Sub Par Dps

vexashen · February 2013

This is a post I put on my fleets forums. A couple people suggested that I mirror it here.

This was a test to prove how little gear matters when it comes to damage in this game. The gap between 7000 dps and 11000 dps is gear. There is basically no reason that anyone pulls 1500 dps based on gear. This fleet has MANY people willing to help with builds. It is my job in this fleet to help tactical captains build ships. I can help with engineers to pull high damage and tactical captains in escorts or cruisers. Science captains and Science ships are not my field.

We ran an stf with 5 of the top damaging people in the fleet all running common mark 10 gear. The only item we didnt run that was mk x common was the Subspace Field Generator. This item is free from a mission so we felt it was valid. I used a zen-store defiant, So did scoaler, Cutter in the Kamarag Battle Cruiser Retrofit (free from a mission), Protector in the Ambassador (same mission), And bottle0rum in an intrepid.

The AVERAGE damage in Infected space elite was 4710. My toon came in 2nd on damage with nothing in any of the reputations. This was basically a fresh level 50. This run took a total of 8 minutes and 46 seconds.

http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/205090/testing_2.jpg

This is the gear I ran on my ship and you can see the skills I used.

http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/205090/testing1.jpg

We ran this to make a point.

There is NO REASON AT ALL people shouldnt be able to pull 3000 damage per second in elite stfs.

If you cant. Something is wrong with your:
BUILD
GEAR
TACTICS

Builds we can fix easy.
Gear anyone can get decent gear (blue consoles, purple weapons)
Tactics. Work with some of the people out damaging you. A large group of people in the fleet run damage parsing software. If they are beating you... ASK WHY!

This isnt meant to be elitist. Its not meant to be cocky. Its meant to prove this can be done with builds and skill. This takes the gear right out of the equation.

I have personally seen my borg cutting beam (no boff skills effect this directly like fire at will, rapid fire, torpedo high yield etc) beat fleet members on damage. Thats ONE of my weapons beating ALL of theirs.

We need to figure out why people are unable to break 3000 dps. This is a very low bench mark that anyone should be able to hit.

If you need help with boff training ASK
If you need help with your captains skill points ASK
If you need help with some basic tactics ASK

If you cannot pull 3000 dps with a proper build and average gear (blue mk xi) then we need to figure out why.

If you are pulling less damage than this you are slowing down other peoples grinding. Its not to be mean or offensive to you. Its a FACT. We have had people say many times they dont want to run with some people because their damage is just so very very low.

I dont want to see that happening so this is my attempt to address the issue.

lasonio · February 2013

I completely agree. There should not be a reason why players aren't getting 3-5k damage per second with their ships. I run 6 beams, 1-2 torps depending on when i want to make lights sparkle and the BC and I put up 3-5k per second with beams, people these are BEAMS not DHC's. If i switched to DHC's i wouldn't have much fun since my damage with be far higher.

So generally when people say they arn't making much damage then it comes back to build, gear only gives you incremental step ups unless you've been using commons all this time and then all of a sudden get UR or VR items then you will see a major jump.

I truly do not think this is elitist in anyway so much as helping players to understand their builds. Generally Elitist players tend to just say they are better and have no interest in making those around them any better and generally they are a bunch of blowhards that got their skills and builds from the forums alone and think they are gods gift to the universe of STO. And alot of players gripe about pugs and elites being terrible and everyone around them being "Noobs" (I hate that word. It's like the kettle calling the pot black, wtf.) But when you run a parser with them everyone else is pulling 750K Damage and they are barely breaching 200k and it's like "Eeeeer... okay. If you kill something we might actually win how YOU want us to win, you douche."

So I agree players need to actually take time to learn how the system works how skills stacks and innate abilities like teamwork and efficient come into play when it comes to your ships. These small things will make you into an elite player in no time or you can remain elitist lol.

adamkafei · February 2013

vexashen wrote: »

The AVERAGE damage in Infected space elite was 4710. My toon came in 2nd on damage with nothing in any of the reputations. This was basically a fresh level 50. This run took a total of 8 minutes and 46 seconds.

http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/205090/testing_2.jpg

This is the gear I ran on my ship and you can see the skills I used.

http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/205090/testing1.jpg

We ran this to make a point.

What is your skill layout?

virusdancer · February 2013

vexashen wrote: »

If you are pulling less damage than this you are slowing down other peoples grinding.

This kind of bugs me. Slowing down other peoples' grinding. It opens a door, so to speak.

I can see complaining that folks are not putting out enough DPS to complete optionals. I can see wanting to help folks with their builds so they can put out enough DPS to contribute to completing optionals.

However, slowing down other peoples' grinding goes beyond that. That gets into the 5 minute ESTF territory. Cause even 3k DPS is going to be slowing down other peoples' grinding.

To me, it just opens the door for that 10 minutes is taking twice as long as 5 minutes thing - and yes, that elitist attitude does exist out there in regard to how people look at certain ships and careers...because it's slowing down other peoples' grinding.

Folks should definitely be putting out the damage to get the optionals done...or the one guy that's not, he should be taking almost all the damage so the other four guys can do that much more damage because they don't have to worry about taking damage. Cause there were 8 deaths in that image you shared - which ESTF was that? Depending on which it was, there shouldn't have been any deaths - you'd have had the guy taking taking the most damage while doing the least damage - and the other guys would have done that much more damage since no time would have been wasted on respawns and less time spent on positioning for damage.

disturbeddudeex · February 2013

http://postimage.org/image/yokve21qj/

I run a dread carrier with elite scorpion pets. This was at a cure normal testing out the ACT. Once in a while I sit back in the cure and defend the kang to see if the other four people can do it and twice we failed the optional, this is in normal mode. Its true there is no reason at all if you can't put 3000 dps.

ferdzso0 · February 2013

lol. one of my ex-fleetmates said that skill does not matter in this game, only the build. you can guess why he is an ex-fleetmate

if you have a basic understanding of the game, you will deal good dps, no matter what.

however the problem is, that the current dmg numbers (6k at best, anyone who deals above that is considered a good player, even in my eyes, though others might disagree, especially with the experience I have, and the numbers I have seen) are with the best of the equipments.

also this is not only the players fault, but the game's too. there is not much info available of anything how stuff work, and if someone comes to the forums, they will encounter pretty much the same chaos, and they do not really have the knowledge to sort through the BS, to find the right info to operate stuff...

I wasnt particularly good, until someone personally showed me whats what, and showed me some posts that are reliable

jadensecura · February 2013

That's a really good point. There is as much bad advice as good both on the forums and in Zone chat, and even the wiki is frequently inaccurate on basic facts, so getting good requires either good luck in finding the right people or picking the right advice, or an absurd amount of work to put it all together yourself. I was lucky enough to find a few really good threads (all becoming outdated now), and a small group of people to put everything else together with.

corbinwolf · February 2013

Agreed! When I started playing this game I was completely at a loss as the game provides very little to nothing in the way of helping someone along. That being said, the STO team have been trying to rectify this with PVP Boot Camp - which regardless if PVP is your thing or not it nevertheless is a great way to learn the basics, including how to build a ship and RESPEC your skill tree.

In all I think the Hilbert Guide, the STO Skill Planner, boot camp and as mentioned, simply asking and seeking advice from players, especially those dealing out massive DPS and who can clearly fly well is the only way to go....

focslain · February 2013

Thank you for posting this, I've always considered myself a mediocre player, competent, but mediocre. Seeing this and your build gives me hope that I am doing things right I just have to get the gull to use what I have.

I just got the ACT so I can see the hard numbers, I'll post later after collecting data, if i can pull what you did on my two low end alts (Fed eng in tact escort and kdf sci in vo'quv), then I think you proven your point.

Knowledge is power and all power to the weapons my friends.

ascaladar · February 2013

Could you tell me where to download your analysing tool and how to set it up for STO?

lasonio · February 2013

There will always be good players around, some are hard to notice since top notch players hardly talk about much other then pure nonsense to pass the time between killing borgs and eachother... lord knows i do. But skill and talent comes down to preference and usually if you get a good teacher, then you get all you can learn then tweak that build to make it your own. I used to give out a ton of builds no I only make builds for some players and keep my own a secret, but I'm always around ESD around 6-8 EST doing rep until i max my rommy then after that you'll prolly have to look around in Azure nebula or Hive and hive elite to find me or something and I have no problem with discussing builds, ships, and skills and such.

But be forewarned I will only give you advice to a build how I like it not necessarily how you want it to be.

vexashen · February 2013

ascaladar wrote: »

Could you tell me where to download your analysing tool and how to set it up for STO?

google advanced combat tracker and grab the sto plugin

vexashen · February 2013

virusdancer wrote: »

This kind of bugs me. Slowing down other peoples' grinding. It opens a door, so to speak.

I can see complaining that folks are not putting out enough DPS to complete optionals. I can see wanting to help folks with their builds so they can put out enough DPS to contribute to completing optionals.

However, slowing down other peoples' grinding goes beyond that. That gets into the 5 minute ESTF territory. Cause even 3k DPS is going to be slowing down other peoples' grinding.

To me, it just opens the door for that 10 minutes is taking twice as long as 5 minutes thing - and yes, that elitist attitude does exist out there in regard to how people look at certain ships and careers...because it's slowing down other peoples' grinding.

Folks should definitely be putting out the damage to get the optionals done...or the one guy that's not, he should be taking almost all the damage so the other four guys can do that much more damage because they don't have to worry about taking damage. Cause there were 8 deaths in that image you shared - which ESTF was that? Depending on which it was, there shouldn't have been any deaths - you'd have had the guy taking taking the most damage while doing the least damage - and the other guys would have done that much more damage since no time would have been wasted on respawns and less time spent on positioning for damage.

This was in infected elite with the entire group running only mk x common gear. it was to prove a point that you can pull decent damage without having the top end gear. Of course we died alot. Mk x common resilient shields arent very good.

vexashen · February 2013

disturbeddudeex wrote: »

http://postimage.org/image/yokve21qj/

I run a dread carrier with elite scorpion pets. This was at a cure normal testing out the ACT. Once in a while I sit back in the cure and defend the kang to see if the other four people can do it and twice we failed the optional, this is in normal mode. Its true there is no reason at all if you can't put 3000 dps.

Im running the same ship with very high end gear on my klingon. He has the "Bug ship" pets and is pulling 12-17k dps running 6 single beams. Ive read some of the threads saying this ship is TRIBBLE... they dont know what they are doing

seniorchief421 · February 2013

I'm posting this as someone who is having DPS issues, I'm familiar enough with the game that I can enjoy playing it (and I'm a VA) but that doesn't mean I know what I'm doing at all lol. Could anyone give me some insight on where I can find some good advice on how to properly set up a ship?

Anything anyone could do to help would be appreciated. I enjoy the game but hate being the weakest link.

(I read through the whole post but I didn't see any links to sites etc that I could head to)

vexashen · February 2013

the question is what ship, captain type and what missions do you run?

seniorchief421 · February 2013

I'm an engineering captain using an Odyssey currently. I've gone through everything trying to run a tactical cruiser. I would like to be more competitive in PvE's

vexashen · February 2013

my engineer does the same thing. hes primarily built to be a tank / healer but in stfs he pulls about 6k

the real trick is to run emergency to shields 1 x2 and emergency to weapons 2 x2

then run fire at will. be careful of your positioning.

also i run 6 points in energy weapon specialization when i run beam boats. run 6 beams and a torp front and rear. max out ALL your energy weapons kills, and max eps

malkarris · February 2013

Well, since this seems to be an advice thread, can I run this by you?

It seems to me that there is a basic skill build that seems to make sense for 90 percent of all builds. Put 9 levels into the first three skills on the tactical rows (attack patterns, energy weapons, maneuvers, weapons training, projectile weapons, and targeting systems), Hull repair, shield emitters, structural integrity, subsystem repair, warp core efficiency, shield systems, electro-plasma systems, impulse thrusters, and warp core potential. And then the rest is basically season to taste for your specific build. But these powers seem to be the must haves, would that be fair to say in 90 percent of all builds?

vexashen · February 2013

malkarris wrote: »

Well, since this seems to be an advice thread, can I run this by you?

It seems to me that there is a basic skill build that seems to make sense for 90 percent of all builds. Put 9 levels into the first three skills on the tactical rows (attack patterns, energy weapons, maneuvers, weapons training, projectile weapons, and targeting systems), Hull repair, shield emitters, structural integrity, subsystem repair, warp core efficiency, shield systems, electro-plasma systems, impulse thrusters, and warp core potential. And then the rest is basically season to taste for your specific build. But these powers seem to be the must haves, would that be fair to say in 90 percent of all builds?

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=nimitzoddy_0

try that out. this builds dependant on you running 3 blue damage control engineers or 2 purples.

i run this build when i stf. its VERY tanky and hold threat very well. put embassy + threat shield emitter consoles with the shield proc for tanking or the plasma proc for dps.

if you dont want to tank... take the 9 points out of threat control and run - threat consoles

jadensecura · February 2013

malkarris wrote: »

Well, since this seems to be an advice thread, can I run this by you?

It seems to me that there is a basic skill build that seems to make sense for 90 percent of all builds. Put 9 levels into the first three skills on the tactical rows (attack patterns, energy weapons, maneuvers, weapons training, projectile weapons, and targeting systems), Hull repair, shield emitters, structural integrity, subsystem repair, warp core efficiency, shield systems, electro-plasma systems, impulse thrusters, and warp core potential. And then the rest is basically season to taste for your specific build. But these powers seem to be the must haves, would that be fair to say in 90 percent of all builds?

Not really, no. Attack Patterns skill isn't useful on most non-escort builds that don't have a tac captain, since they simply don't have any attack pattern abilities for the skill to boost. Subsystem Repair seems to be mainly good for PvP, for PvE there just isn't that much occasion for it. The power boosting skills are good, but more than 6 points in them is really a waste (you'll get like 1 or 2 points of power total from the last 3 points). How much Impulse Thrusters skill you need will depend on both the content you play and the ship you use. Projectile Weapons isn't useful on builds that don't use projectiles (many escorts fit into this category), and energy weapons isn't useful if you aren't running any energy weapons (some sci ships and most B'Rel builds do this, although the latter don't really belong in the Fed forums). And of course sci ships can't necessarily run all of the rest maxed, since they need so many other skills (mine runs with 6 in Hull Repair and 8 in Structural Integrity).

unangbangkay · February 2013

jadensecura wrote: »

Not really, no. Attack Patterns skill isn't useful on most non-escort builds that don't have a tac captain, since they simply don't have any attack pattern abilities for the skill to boost.

Subsystem Repair seems to be mainly good for PvP, for PvE there just isn't that much occasion for it. The power boosting skills are good, but more than 6 points in them is really a waste (you'll get like 1 or 2 points of power total from the last 3 points). How much Impulse Thrusters skill you need will depend on both the content you play and the ship you use.

And of course sci ships can't necessarily run all of the rest maxed, since they need so many other skills (mine runs with 6 in Hull Repair and 8 in Structural Integrity).

Subsystem repair has become a little more important as Tholians and other random enemies from the Fleet Actions have become subsystem-happy, but generally this sentiment is correct. If you grind mainly STFs then 3 points should suffice, supplementing the rest with batteries or subsystem power skills.

And yes, if you're running purer science ships then it's in your best interest to skimp just a bit on the tac skills and dump points into your favorite science skills (Particle Generators, etc.) to pump those.

Otherwise, the "all-purpose" tac-focused skill build is useful for characters that don't respec often or like to switch ship types a lot. I'm an Eng but have no alts at the moment, so I find this build useful, since I switch from Escort to SV to Cruiser depending on my mood.

That said, I've noticed I rarely use torps, so I may transition out of that skill in favor of more Energy Weapon type points. Or maybe pumping Science to make my Vesta and Carrier more useful.

marc8219 · February 2013

When I made a new tac a few times I would just start it out with cheap rare plasma gear from exchange, and always get over 6k dps. Once a tac is geared better, should be able to sustain over 10k throughout a boss fight, and peak at over 15k at times.

malkarris · February 2013

Thanks, that pointed out some flawas in my thinking.

dixa1 · February 2013

vexashen wrote: »

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=nimitzoddy_0

try that out. this builds dependant on you running 3 blue damage control engineers or 2 purples.

i run this build when i stf. its VERY tanky and hold threat very well. put embassy + threat shield emitter consoles with the shield proc for tanking or the plasma proc for dps.

if you dont want to tank... take the 9 points out of threat control and run - threat consoles

could you do something like this for an assault cruiser refit?

jadensecura · February 2013

dixa1 wrote: »

could you do something like this for an assault cruiser refit?

You could do something sort of similar, it'll end up with a bit more firepower and a fair bit less tank. ??? indicates users choice:

TT1, FAW2, APO1
???
EPtS1, RSP1, RSP2, A2SIF3
EPtW1, ???
HE1, TSS2

I'm not sure how well it'll work, the Ody version was a lot stronger on heals, but you can try it. Options for the ??? slots might be another TT or a BO for the tac slot, or a torp ability if you use torps, and for the eng maybe a second A2SIF, or else an Extend Shields or DEM. You could also consider dropping the APO for an APB depending on content, my understanding is that you almost have to have a tractor immunity ability for PvP, but in PvE you'll do fine without it and the APB is a bigger damage buff.

hereticknight085 · February 2013

jadensecura wrote: »

You could do something sort of similar, it'll end up with a bit more firepower and a fair bit less tank. ??? indicates users choice:

TT1, FAW2, APO1
TS1/THY1
EPtS1, RSP1, RSP2, A2SIF3
EPtW1, A2B1/EPtW2
HE1, TSS2

I'm not sure how well it'll work, the Ody version was a lot stronger on heals, but you can try it. Options for the ??? slots might be another TT or a BO for the tac slot, or a torp ability if you use torps, and for the eng maybe a second A2SIF, or else an Extend Shields or DEM. You could also consider dropping the APO for an APB depending on content, my understanding is that you almost have to have a tractor immunity ability for PvP, but in PvE you'll do fine without it and the APB is a bigger damage buff.

Modifications in green.

Btw, you should never run a cruiser of any kind without at least one copy of EPtW. Beams are just too energy inefficient for you to do otherwise.

ericphail · February 2013

hereticknight085 wrote: »

Btw, you should never run a cruiser of any kind without at least one copy of EPtW. Beams are just too energy inefficient for you to do otherwise.

Really? I'll keep that in mind for my new eng. (Previous caps were a sci and a tac).

As for the skills thing - I feel my sci in his Chel'Grett would have benefitted from at least 3 in attack patterns, ah well, benefits of hindsight. TBH I don't think you'd go massively wrong with putting 3 points in each of the first three tiers of tac and eng skills before anything else (in fact excl. Threat control, 3 points in everything is while not great, certainly not a terrible start it seems to me)

ferdzso0 · February 2013

ericphail wrote: »

Really? I'll keep that in mind for my new eng. (Previous caps were a sci and a tac).

As for the skills thing - I feel my sci in his Chel'Grett would have benefitted from at least 3 in attack patterns, ah well, benefits of hindsight. TBH I don't think you'd go massively wrong with putting 3 points in each of the first three tiers of tac and eng skills before anything else (in fact excl. Threat control, 3 points in everything is while not great, certainly not a terrible start it seems to me)

threat control is great. it gives you good dmg resistance to shields and hull. and if you are flying any ship right, you would have the aggro anyway because of your dps, so in the end it is good to have that few more resistance points

jlantis · February 2013

Hi it would be great, if you could add your build, used officers and whatever i missed to your X common equipment example.
I would try to rebuild it on a new toon and fly some rounds.
Atm i fly tactical escourt on my first toon with an torpedo pve build (incl purple cooldown reduction for torpedos with officers) xii weapons. My parsings today gave me only about 5,5k dps.

shookyang · February 2013

ferdzso0 wrote: »

threat control is great. it gives you good dmg resistance to shields and hull. and if you are flying any ship right, you would have the aggro anyway because of your dps, so in the end it is good to have that few more resistance points

I thought it was just to hull and gives both kinetic and energy weapon resistance.

Builds Vs Gear / Sub Par Dps

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