ok, I don't remember where, etc. But I believe in both the cases of The Doctor and Data, they were ruled as Senient by the Federation Council or whatever governing body does that. At the vary least, I seem to remember that the Doctor was ruled to have intellectual property rights.
However, in both cases, they were exceptions to the rule. Data was a unique andriod (whose creator is now dead, and thus most likely can not be reproduced) who was designed to "evolve" to the point of being more or less Human.
The Doctor by comparision had to evolve his programming to essentially fill a role he was not originally designed to do. This includes functioning far longer then the program was originally designed to do. The Emergency Medical Hologram was never suppose to be the only competent medical professional for 7 years.
This does not apply to all androids and Holograms. The Federation/Starfleet does not consider holograms or androids as a "species" to be sentient. I don't remember all the requirements of sentience, but one of them is independent thought. In the case of the Doctor i believe you have to prove that he could not only act beyond his original program design but counter to it.
As for holograms killing or not killing. The only time i remember this coming up is, a) holoprograms, in which safety protocols are active. b) the Doctor.
In the latter case, it had nothing to do with him being a hologram and everything to do with being a Doctor. As a medical hologram, he was programmed to be bound by the Hippocratic Oath at all times (as it was never deemed necessary for him not to be).
However, in both cases, they were exceptions to the rule.
In both cases the would be considered precedent. So as both are considered to be "living" and having rights, that means other beings like themselves would be grated the same rights. IIRC this is why Starfleet couldn't force Lal, Data's daughter to comply, but needed her to agree to going to the Daystrom.
As for holograms killing or not killing. The only time i remember this coming up is, a) holoprograms, in which safety protocols are active. b) the Doctor.
Various holographic officers in the game can kill.
We'll see playable androids before we see playable holograms, if ever.
Heck, I think the groundwork for playable androids has pretty well been laid now. If they don't follow through with that, then playable holograms are, well, just a light show.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
In both cases the would be considered precedent. So as both are considered to be "living" and having rights, that means other beings like themselves would be grated the same rights. IIRC this is why Starfleet couldn't force Lal, Data's daughter to comply, but needed her to agree to going to the Daystrom.
oh, I don't argue that they are a precedent. But that precedent comes with a series of guidelines. You can't just declare a Hologram living because it is an EMH. You have a series of guidelines to say, if a, b, and c then, yeah hologram such and such is sentient. Can it be done again, of course, but it is far from the norm. And again, I stand by my statement that the general rule is they aren't sentient and aren't considered living. So you are far from having Holographic Captains running around Starfleet.
ok, I don't remember where, etc. But I believe in both the cases of The Doctor and Data, they were ruled as Senient by the Federation Council or whatever governing body does that. At the vary least, I seem to remember that the Doctor was ruled to have intellectual property rights.
However, in both cases, they were exceptions to the rule. Data was a unique andriod (whose creator is now dead, and thus most likely can not be reproduced) who was designed to "evolve" to the point of being more or less Human.
The Doctor by comparision had to evolve his programming to essentially fill a role he was not originally designed to do. This includes functioning far longer then the program was originally designed to do. The Emergency Medical Hologram was never suppose to be the only competent medical professional for 7 years.
This does not apply to all androids and Holograms. The Federation/Starfleet does not consider holograms or androids as a "species" to be sentient. I don't remember all the requirements of sentience, but one of them is independent thought. In the case of the Doctor i believe you have to prove that he could not only act beyond his original program design but counter to it.
As for holograms killing or not killing. The only time i remember this coming up is, a) holoprograms, in which safety protocols are active. b) the Doctor.
In the latter case, it had nothing to do with him being a hologram and everything to do with being a Doctor. As a medical hologram, he was programmed to be bound by the Hippocratic Oath at all times (as it was never deemed necessary for him not to be).
In the case of androids, Data is fairly unique.
In the case of holograms, there are pages upon pages of STO lore (over a full chapter of the tie in novel) establishing that holograms are frequently sentient. And two in-game missions dealing with autonomous holograms. (The Vulcan Love Slave mission and the Bonniekins guy.) Vic Fontaine was ruled sentient, given a mobile emitter, and decided to leave Quark's bar. Moriarty is living on a planet of holographic refugees.
And the Doctor's armband has been mass produced. Evident not only on all holographic bridge officers (who wear them) but in the game's lore.
I'd like to see a mission that deals with the ethics of a 29th century holoemitter (and 29th century ships) going into use centuries ahead of schedule. But they have and are.
In all likelihood, sentient holograms are more common than liberated Borg and we have those.
How do you kill something like that? It can't be done except by another Q. He even dares you to fire your weapons at him. I doubt he would do that if you actually stood a chance at hurting him.
If they take human (or similar) form, they would physically die from the quantum torpedo provided they did not protect themselves from it. That is not to say that they would stay dead, mind you. They would probably just reform from their energy-based remains.
I think the best reason why they shouldn't be added is that it's just too little gain for too few people for the amount of work involved by the developers and programmers. Other than the flicker effect, pretty much everything that people want a hologram for can be accomplished by just making an alien and setting an appropriate bio.
I think the best reason why they shouldn't be added is that it's just too little gain for too few people for the amount of work involved by the developers and programmers. Other than the flicker effect, pretty much everything that people want a hologram for can be accomplished by just making an alien and setting an appropriate bio.
Maybe but they have holographic bridge officers. 2 Fed, 2 KDF.
They'd just need a player character with the same traits and the armband visual, plus whatever else they decided to do.
The Q still died from the tornado regardless of who sent it.
It most likely wasn't a tornado, it's more than likely that our primitive minds only perceived it as a tornado, the same way that Janeway perceived the Q Continuum as a shack on a road the first time she saw it and as a civil war re-enactment the second time.
Maybe but they have holographic bridge officers. 2 Fed, 2 KDF.
They'd just need a player character with the same traits and the armband visual, plus whatever else they decided to do.
I know it sounds easy, but as a programmer, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a lot more work than you'd think to add it to the list of available races on the character creation screen, and then have it set as an appropriate player race type for the various spots in the game that use it (of which there aren't many, but even having one such instance means it's there).
Of course, I could be wrong, and this would only take a short time in which case, I have no objection to it being added. I just have this strong suspicion that adding things like this is probably not as streamlined as it could be in something as large as STO.
I know it sounds easy, but as a programmer, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a lot more work than you'd think to add it to the list of available races on the character creation screen, and then have it set as an appropriate player race type for the various spots in the game that use it (of which there aren't many, but even having one such instance means it's there).
Of course, I could be wrong, and this would only take a short time in which case, I have no objection to it being added. I just have this strong suspicion that adding things like this is probably not as streamlined as it could be in something as large as STO.
Well, yes. It is work. I've programmed database intensive online games before.
But compared to adding most species, it's fairly easy. And I assume that everyone is talking about giving Cryptic money for the unlock, just like Caitians or Ferasans.
As opposed to adding NOTHING, it may be a lot of work. As compared with Avian Xindi or Lurians or Grazerites or Chameloids, it's fairly easy.
Well, yes. It is work. I've programmed database intensive online games before.
But compared to adding most species, it's fairly easy. And I assume that everyone is talking about giving Cryptic money for the unlock, just like Caitians or Ferasans.
As opposed to adding NOTHING, it may be a lot of work. As compared with Avian Xindi or Lurians or Grazerites or Chameloids, it's fairly easy.
I agree, but I would guess that if it happened, you'd see people asking why the time spent wasn't instead used to fix bugs, or add new missions, or fix the foundry, or PVP, or something else.
On my own personal wishlist of Cryptic priorities, adding a holographic playable species isn't as high up as some of those, unless it was something that could be done in an hour or two.
Well, yes. It is work. I've programmed database intensive online games before.
But compared to adding most species, it's fairly easy. And I assume that everyone is talking about giving Cryptic money for the unlock, just like Caitians or Ferasans.
As opposed to adding NOTHING, it may be a lot of work. As compared with Avian Xindi or Lurians or Grazerites or Chameloids, it's fairly easy.
Hehe, I know what you mean. I wrote a Space Empires 5 mod that added 15 Star Trek races to the game. Took months to code it all. But I didn't create any new graphics assets. I just used things that already existed.
Programing aside, they have to figure out a way to balance the game with new holographic traits and make the player immersion feels like they are playing a hologram.
I say if they do make hologram playable, which I doubt, they will have to make sure they can't take any environmental damages, physical and kinetic attacks can only slow them down, they will be easier to harm with energy weapon.
They will have to make a new animation for being knocked out and being revived.
They should change it so the holo characters only have shield point but no hit point (or very little amount). They should also be able to equip 2 personal shield but no armor.
Abilities that effect electronics, shielding, malfunctioning have to be affect the holo character.
Why not? I have several holographic duty officers on my ship, some of which are rather high in rank. Lieutenant Junior Grade and Lieutenant. We have holographic engineers, doctors, technicians, scientists and even soldiers. Why not holographic captains? If a hologram can take part in a ground offensive or search a civilian freighter or reinforce a base, why can't one captain a starship?
I vote NO..because i dont believe in TarTar Sauce..
I think the best reason why they shouldn't be added is that it's just too little gain for too few people for the amount of work involved by the developers and programmers. Other than the flicker effect, pretty much everything that people want a hologram for can be accomplished by just making an alien and setting an appropriate bio.
A Holographic Captain could be set as a Lockbox Race. People get to play it if they want it, and Cryptic gets a nice influx of cash in the process.
It most likely wasn't a tornado, it's more than likely that our primitive minds only perceived it as a tornado, the same way that Janeway perceived the Q Continuum as a shack on a road the first time she saw it and as a civil war re-enactment the second time.
If they could not use their powers to protect themselves then a regular tornado would do the trick.
If they could not use their powers to protect themselves then a regular tornado would do the trick.
You mean apart from the fact that Q was shown being able to protect himself multiple times in the show. The only time Q was ever hurt by a human was when he let his guard down because he was so used to Picard's diplomacy and not prepared for Sisko's more hands on style of dealing with problems.
Why not? I have several holographic duty officers on my ship, some of which are rather high in rank. Lieutenant Junior Grade and Lieutenant. We have holographic engineers, doctors, technicians, scientists and even soldiers. Why not holographic captains? If a hologram can take part in a ground offensive or search a civilian freighter or reinforce a base, why can't one captain a starship?
They must have a "H" on their foreheads so I can name the rest of my Boffs Kryton, Lister, Cat, Holly and some other Red Dwarfe character name. Captain hologram Rimmer reporting for duty.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
It most likely wasn't a tornado, it's more than likely that our primitive minds only perceived it as a tornado, the same way that Janeway perceived the Q Continuum as a shack on a road the first time she saw it and as a civil war re-enactment the second time.
IIRC, part of the plot of the ep was that the weather control equipment "malfunctioned" and the tornado was more powerful than a 'real' tornado. So, yeah.... see: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Amanda_Rogers
Edit: actually Q admitted that the tornado was a hit carried out by the continuum...
IIRC, part of the plot of the ep was that the weather control equipment "malfunctioned" and the tornado was more powerful than a 'real' tornado. So, yeah.... see: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Amanda_Rogers
Edit: actually Q admitted that the tornado was a hit carried out by the continuum...
Yes.
But it seems like some people assume they had their powers or "let their guard down" which allowed the Q-created tornado to kill them.
I assumed that they had no powers and that Q cannot be killed unless they have no powers. (See: Quinn, Q stripped of his powers, etc.)
If you have powers, you are part of the Q Continuum. If you leave the Q Continuum (which is both a place AND a club) then you have no powers.
But it seems like some people assume they had their powers or "let their guard down" which allowed the Q-created tornado to kill them.
I assumed that they had no powers and that Q cannot be killed unless they have no powers. (See: Quinn, Q stripped of his powers, etc.)
If you have powers, you are part of the Q Continuum. If you leave the Q Continuum (which is both a place AND a club) then you have no powers.
What do you mean by "leave the continuum"?
Amanda had powers she was born with. She'd never even been there. If her parents had been stripped of their powers, wouldn't she have been born a normal human?
Q(John de Lancie) was able to use his powers at will outside the continuum(except on the occasion where he was banished and stripped of his power).
Also.... several Q were killed during the Q civil war.... an odd side effect is that Q(Suzie Plakston) temporarily lost her powers as a side effect of the war.
Amanda had powers she was born with. She'd never even been there. If her parents had been stripped of their powers, wouldn't she have been born a normal human?
Presumably she has them due to her genetics, or whatever the Q equivalent is. If you go bald before you have a child, the kid will still be able to grow hair. Amanda's parents may have had their powers blocked but Amanda did not.
Oooor maybe she did and the Q simply activated her powers once she was old enough to properly wield them.
My thought is that her parents still had their powers when she was born.... Then the other Q assassinated her parents. I mean really.... why kill them if they're powerless?
I remember the episode saying that her had promised not to use their powers, but they did and that was what warranted their execution.
I know that she was not allowed to use them unless she joined their Clan. I do not recall about her parents. That makes sense though.
I wonder if Amanda survived the Q Civil War.
Hm. The actress (Ms. d'Abo) does a good amount of voice work. Maybe we can get her to reprise her role here in the game. Maybe we could get Amanda to host Summer Wonderlands over at Risa.
I know that she was not allowed to use them unless she joined their Clan. I do not recall about her parents. That makes sense though.
I wonder if Amanda survived the Q Civil War.
Hm. The actress (Ms. d'Abo) does a good amount of voice work. Maybe we can get her to reprise her role here in the game. Maybe we could get Amanda to host Summer Wonderlands over at Risa.
No. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOoooooooo!!!!!!!! No.
It's enough that this lame manure was hatched in Voyager. It's enough there are intellectually insultive boffs of that heap of dung.
They needed a new Data. A new super invulnerable "outsider" to play as a witty antagonist to another character (the McCoy/Spock parlay). DS9 had Odo. In voyager they made The Doctor.
IT WAS OBSCENE!!!
No more. The line must be drawn here. This far. No further!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
___________________________
Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
Comments
However, in both cases, they were exceptions to the rule. Data was a unique andriod (whose creator is now dead, and thus most likely can not be reproduced) who was designed to "evolve" to the point of being more or less Human.
The Doctor by comparision had to evolve his programming to essentially fill a role he was not originally designed to do. This includes functioning far longer then the program was originally designed to do. The Emergency Medical Hologram was never suppose to be the only competent medical professional for 7 years.
This does not apply to all androids and Holograms. The Federation/Starfleet does not consider holograms or androids as a "species" to be sentient. I don't remember all the requirements of sentience, but one of them is independent thought. In the case of the Doctor i believe you have to prove that he could not only act beyond his original program design but counter to it.
As for holograms killing or not killing. The only time i remember this coming up is, a) holoprograms, in which safety protocols are active. b) the Doctor.
In the latter case, it had nothing to do with him being a hologram and everything to do with being a Doctor. As a medical hologram, he was programmed to be bound by the Hippocratic Oath at all times (as it was never deemed necessary for him not to be).
In both cases the would be considered precedent. So as both are considered to be "living" and having rights, that means other beings like themselves would be grated the same rights. IIRC this is why Starfleet couldn't force Lal, Data's daughter to comply, but needed her to agree to going to the Daystrom.
Various holographic officers in the game can kill.
Heck, I think the groundwork for playable androids has pretty well been laid now. If they don't follow through with that, then playable holograms are, well, just a light show.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
oh, I don't argue that they are a precedent. But that precedent comes with a series of guidelines. You can't just declare a Hologram living because it is an EMH. You have a series of guidelines to say, if a, b, and c then, yeah hologram such and such is sentient. Can it be done again, of course, but it is far from the norm. And again, I stand by my statement that the general rule is they aren't sentient and aren't considered living. So you are far from having Holographic Captains running around Starfleet.
In the case of androids, Data is fairly unique.
In the case of holograms, there are pages upon pages of STO lore (over a full chapter of the tie in novel) establishing that holograms are frequently sentient. And two in-game missions dealing with autonomous holograms. (The Vulcan Love Slave mission and the Bonniekins guy.) Vic Fontaine was ruled sentient, given a mobile emitter, and decided to leave Quark's bar. Moriarty is living on a planet of holographic refugees.
And the Doctor's armband has been mass produced. Evident not only on all holographic bridge officers (who wear them) but in the game's lore.
I'd like to see a mission that deals with the ethics of a 29th century holoemitter (and 29th century ships) going into use centuries ahead of schedule. But they have and are.
In all likelihood, sentient holograms are more common than liberated Borg and we have those.
As do I. An Exocomp would ~so~ be my Main.
The Q still died from the tornado regardless of who sent it.
If they take human (or similar) form, they would physically die from the quantum torpedo provided they did not protect themselves from it. That is not to say that they would stay dead, mind you. They would probably just reform from their energy-based remains.
Maybe but they have holographic bridge officers. 2 Fed, 2 KDF.
They'd just need a player character with the same traits and the armband visual, plus whatever else they decided to do.
It most likely wasn't a tornado, it's more than likely that our primitive minds only perceived it as a tornado, the same way that Janeway perceived the Q Continuum as a shack on a road the first time she saw it and as a civil war re-enactment the second time.
I know it sounds easy, but as a programmer, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a lot more work than you'd think to add it to the list of available races on the character creation screen, and then have it set as an appropriate player race type for the various spots in the game that use it (of which there aren't many, but even having one such instance means it's there).
Of course, I could be wrong, and this would only take a short time in which case, I have no objection to it being added. I just have this strong suspicion that adding things like this is probably not as streamlined as it could be in something as large as STO.
Well, yes. It is work. I've programmed database intensive online games before.
But compared to adding most species, it's fairly easy. And I assume that everyone is talking about giving Cryptic money for the unlock, just like Caitians or Ferasans.
As opposed to adding NOTHING, it may be a lot of work. As compared with Avian Xindi or Lurians or Grazerites or Chameloids, it's fairly easy.
I agree, but I would guess that if it happened, you'd see people asking why the time spent wasn't instead used to fix bugs, or add new missions, or fix the foundry, or PVP, or something else.
On my own personal wishlist of Cryptic priorities, adding a holographic playable species isn't as high up as some of those, unless it was something that could be done in an hour or two.
My character Tsin'xing
I say if they do make hologram playable, which I doubt, they will have to make sure they can't take any environmental damages, physical and kinetic attacks can only slow them down, they will be easier to harm with energy weapon.
They will have to make a new animation for being knocked out and being revived.
They should change it so the holo characters only have shield point but no hit point (or very little amount). They should also be able to equip 2 personal shield but no armor.
Abilities that effect electronics, shielding, malfunctioning have to be affect the holo character.
I vote NO..because i dont believe in TarTar Sauce..
A Holographic Captain could be set as a Lockbox Race. People get to play it if they want it, and Cryptic gets a nice influx of cash in the process.
If they could not use their powers to protect themselves then a regular tornado would do the trick.
You mean apart from the fact that Q was shown being able to protect himself multiple times in the show. The only time Q was ever hurt by a human was when he let his guard down because he was so used to Picard's diplomacy and not prepared for Sisko's more hands on style of dealing with problems.
They must have a "H" on their foreheads so I can name the rest of my Boffs Kryton, Lister, Cat, Holly and some other Red Dwarfe character name. Captain hologram Rimmer reporting for duty.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
I assumed that they gave up their powers.
Edit: actually Q admitted that the tornado was a hit carried out by the continuum...
My character Tsin'xing
Yes.
But it seems like some people assume they had their powers or "let their guard down" which allowed the Q-created tornado to kill them.
I assumed that they had no powers and that Q cannot be killed unless they have no powers. (See: Quinn, Q stripped of his powers, etc.)
If you have powers, you are part of the Q Continuum. If you leave the Q Continuum (which is both a place AND a club) then you have no powers.
Amanda had powers she was born with. She'd never even been there. If her parents had been stripped of their powers, wouldn't she have been born a normal human?
Q(John de Lancie) was able to use his powers at will outside the continuum(except on the occasion where he was banished and stripped of his power).
Also.... several Q were killed during the Q civil war.... an odd side effect is that Q(Suzie Plakston) temporarily lost her powers as a side effect of the war.
My character Tsin'xing
Presumably she has them due to her genetics, or whatever the Q equivalent is. If you go bald before you have a child, the kid will still be able to grow hair. Amanda's parents may have had their powers blocked but Amanda did not.
Oooor maybe she did and the Q simply activated her powers once she was old enough to properly wield them.
My character Tsin'xing
I know that she was not allowed to use them unless she joined their Clan. I do not recall about her parents. That makes sense though.
I wonder if Amanda survived the Q Civil War.
Hm. The actress (Ms. d'Abo) does a good amount of voice work. Maybe we can get her to reprise her role here in the game. Maybe we could get Amanda to host Summer Wonderlands over at Risa.
That would be an AWESOME idea.
Brandon, I hope you're looking at this!
It's enough that this lame manure was hatched in Voyager. It's enough there are intellectually insultive boffs of that heap of dung.
They needed a new Data. A new super invulnerable "outsider" to play as a witty antagonist to another character (the McCoy/Spock parlay). DS9 had Odo. In voyager they made The Doctor.
IT WAS OBSCENE!!!
No more. The line must be drawn here. This far. No further!
___________________________
Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!