*Ultra-spike needs to be toned down further or eliminated outright of very limited use gimmick attakcs.
*General average DPS of NPCs should be increased to the point where it creates pressure on a cruiser's ability to maintain constant healing - few if any escorts will have enough resources to maintain healing vs. this level of pressure damage.
*Boss fights should have an average DPS that is high enough to outright outpace a single cruiser's ability to survive through extreme pressure damage - a second tank or healer would be required to survive.
*Rebalance new Romulan Embassy Consoles - consoles that add +THREAT should be limited to consoles that also offer survivability increases. Consoles that offer -THREAT would not offer survivability increases and would instead be linked to improving debuff type sci powers.
Re-balance content to require crowd control
*Missions should put players in situations where crowd control is critical, and not simply "nice to have a GW 1 on an escort".
There's really a lot that would need to be done and these are just a few drops in the bucket, and quite frankly we are on a runaway train at this point.
The devs keep the content easy to require no specific team comp because that most likely fits best with a free to play, pug queue teaming system.
Fine, then relegate all of the normal content and lower tier rewards to the PUG queue system - Elite content should be harder and require at least some roles (not specific ships or captains, roles) to be covered for optimal completion.
I suspect that is a lot harder to do than one might think. Anyone got any specific proposals on how to do that?
It's only hard for this game, it's been done in MMOs for a very, very long time.
I don't think we need specifically holy trinity play, but there should be some role emphasis considered for all mission content.
What we have now are STFs that require DPS above all, PvE queue events that are the worst examples of spacebar mashing to freedom, and a few one off missions that are token "bring your control build" missions.
We need roles to be useful in all missions and not just a few one offs.
The only means I've seen of reliably shooting them down it scatter volley. The torpedo tend to blend into the background on something like elite.
1) I play a support role. I'm not God. I can't watch every detail at once.
2) Photonic Shockwave is a punk to use because of the short range. You have to focus on the torpedo above all else to hit it at about 2.5Km. Any further and you're likely to miss. Any closer and the torpedo has a good chance to hit before server gets around to saying "Oh, I should maybe apply damage to the torpedo."
Considering their travel speed, that about a 1-2 second you have to ignore everything else. Like say a shield failing and being hammer away at by cannons and 800per second plasma dot?
3) Fire at Will is often a death sentence. Sure, it will a torpedo, but it will also bring down the wrath of everything in 10Km. Also doing negotiable damage if there are more then two targets _anywhere_ inside that 10Km sphere.
The only use I've found for FaW is taking out fighters, and you'll lose more ground to the lower total DPS then you will slow down a carrier on top of spamming fighters.
4)Tractor beam will instantly kill one torpedo, but is only partially effective vs. one target. It also requires you have nothing else distracting you so you can target the torpedo in a timely fashion or other more practical uses for it.
5) Fighters while probably the most effective option are: A) a high attention sinks prone to just staring off into the abyss.
Now that I've answered a few of the point patronizing me, I'll go back to the OP?
Why not a HDC with scatter volley will always kill the torpedo offend before the animation comes out from behind the cube, doesn't aggro half the map, maintains a high pressure on the target, and if your going to die anyway?
They can get back on point faster then anything else.
I think a point here is missing here: HDC or even HC are not just effective, they are that effective because every other abilities are so have trivialized.
Before you go shooting off how I'm after nerfing cannons, I don't have a problem with escorts being ship killers. I have a problem with how everything else failing in their use so badly.
A great way of doing it is introduce an ability tied to each level 45 and 50 ship, and give the typical PvE content enemies some very very nasty skills that only those ships can deal with.
For example, you could have Borg Cubes completely arrest one of the ships attacking it. Catch it in some kind of stasis bubble. That player automatically loses all aggro and is forever stuck until he somehow dies.
To get rid of the bubble and be able to move again, you need help from a Science Vessel's 'elite' ability. (Note this is not a console or device, it's something the PLAYER automaticall receives if he is a science officer in a science ship)
Then maybe give them a huge linked AoE attack that debuffs everyone's hull in a 50 km radius (something like a shipborne nano-virus, or "termites") and you need an Engineer in a Cruiser to actually get rid of it.
Only if a game has hard lock-ins towards classes like in the above examples would you have proper classes.
You simply wouldn't be able to pew-pew at the Borg without science and engineer officers in their respective ship types, and thus, people would be forced to play them.
Of course, tactical would get some token cause/effect ability too, but that would be besides the point.
The above are only examples, but show what kind of game design thinking is required to have players actually use their careers properly.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] bloodpact.net
"The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it."
Assuming that it is not the dreaded invisible heavy plasma torpedo of death, then it is easy to shoot down if you pay attention. Sometimes when a heavy plasma torpedo is nearby, then I spend a couple of seconds shooting it down since if its not dealt with could cause me or a teammate a death.
I'm at the conclusion that the cube fires 3 torps at a time with only 1 being visable. My ADS saves me from the visable one but cannot knock out the invis ones.
As an escort I am thrilled to see a tank who can hold aggro, otherwise i usually find myself as the primary target.
As the tank I believe you can not fight the borg standing still. What i do is point different shield facings toward my target for no longer than 3-5 seconds. I fly around at 3/4 impulse for a balance of speed and manuverability.
The problem i see most in PuG STF is how you end up with bad composition. Too many escorts might be ok due to damage output. Too many tanks? You're screwed!
There was no patch two weeks ago. Even if there was, it would not nerf super Borg torps. They have never been nerfed. Devs tell us they were brought down in damage (lie). Devs tell us that Borg no longer crit (lie).
Running elite STFs means you are okay with randomly blowing up at full health and outside of enemy weapon range from time to time.
What still boggles my mind are forum big mouths who insists that they are better players then everyone else and never fall victim to the above by saying "just shoot them down".
Lol. This guy. Just... lol...
Yes, there was a patch a few weeks back in which the Borg spike damage was reduced by 20%. Even though getting hit for 80% of 300k is still 240k which will still usually kill it's target. The Borg also do not crit anymore. However as a direct result, their regular damage ability was greatly increased. Tough. ****. And yes, the Borg were nerfed. They had a massive AI upgrade about 3 weeks before S7 went live, and during that time the rage threads on the forums went through the roof, and as such the Borg were reduced to stupid again.
Running an ESTF means you are ok with actually having to work with your team and keep an eye out for high danger targets/enemies. Aka Heavy Plasma Torps. And if you die outside of enemy range it just means there was a torp you outran that just took a little longer to hit you.
And us "forum bigmouths" are players who actually pay attention and know what they are doing. We don't think we're better than you, we're just better at staying alive. We're better at predicting patterns, we're better at knowing what an NPCs pre-programming is.
So get off your high horse, get your head out of your rear, put on some monotaniums and a new diaper, and stop complaining.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Am I the only one to use these heavy plasma torpedoes to my advantage? Those torpedoes aren't made to be shot down. Rather a player should return them to sender. When one of the borg torps goes off it's like getting hit by a Tricobalt High Yield III. Difficult to survive, but it can be done every time with Brace for impact, tactical team, emergency power to shields, and hazard emitters. EPtS is optional, but it does ensure your survival.
I would suggest trying to let the torpedo hit you point blank (0.25km away from the cube). When you are the target and the cube buffs up, debuff the cube with fire on my mark/sensor scan, attack pattern beta, and gravitic anchor (-50 torpedo resistance and -33% defense rating). Then fly up to the cube, hit brace for impact et all, and wait for the torpedo. Sure, it will drop you to 20% health in your escort, but if that cube's facing shields are down it will oneshot itself with the splash damage. Science vessels are the ship class that should avoid those torps like the plague (gravity well, subnuke beam, repulsors, shockwave). Every other ship class can survive the torpedoes providing they at least have tactical team, brace for impact, and hazards to clear the DoT (which is actually what kills most players hit by the torps, not the initial shot).
Now that sounds absolutely insane and awesome at the same time. I hear people try to do something similar in Borg Red Alerts as well with Plasma Bolts.
The new Romulan Hyper-plasma torpedo has no problems countering cube heavy plasma torps since they detonate in close proximity of each other. This accomplishes the job of turning the cube's torpedo against itself while still firing from 9km out.
*General average DPS of NPCs should be increased to the point where it creates pressure on a cruiser's ability to maintain constant healing - few if any escorts will have enough resources to maintain healing vs. this level of pressure damage.
You just killed solo play.
*Boss fights should have an average DPS that is high enough to outright outpace a single cruiser's ability to survive through extreme pressure damage - a second tank or healer would be required to survive.
Missions should put players in situations where crowd control is critical
You just killed random teams.
The devs keep the content easy to require no specific team comp because that most likely fits best with a free to play, pug queue teaming system.
You know why it fits best? Because people don't like to be forced to play with a specific team makeup and specific strategy in order to get anywhere.
A sci ship wielding GW3 or TBR3 is an unholy nightmare in an STF with embassy consoles.
Against a near fixed or fixed target, TBR3 puts out enough DPS to take a third to half of a cube or transformer's health, as will GW3.
A Fleet Excelsior, or ACR with just blue mrk XI energy weap consoles and fleet weapons can pump their beam arrays into the 1000 dps per array range, giving them slightly more firepower than the average escort.
Why NOT use those two? Especially with the Quantum turret and a Torpedo Spread 2 (or maybe three if you're lucky!) You don't need an escort to do DPS in an STF.
Cryptic however, have built a game which concentrates solely on dps and how fast you can kill something.
This is not correct game design. It should be be made so that you need a mix of careers to complete pve content....
yes and not...
escorts deal many DPS, but have not so much hull and shield as cruisers and sci vessels. So they can and must destroy an opponent faster.
cruisers and sci vessels have less dps, but this only means that they need more time to destroy an opponent, but they have all the necessary to resist longer.
I use both a tactical toon on escorts and a sci toon on wells, both of them can easly destroy a cube... simply I need some more time (just some more seconds) if I am playing my sci toon. I'll tell more... in KSE my sci toon can manage one side solo, even better than my tactical toon (because of some usefull sci abilities like GW and TBR).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
"Just needs more time", however, is an important difference when your missions often boil down to "kill that stuff within the time limit".
It's not such a tragedy...
First of all now we have weapons that let cruisers and sci vessels have much more dps than before, enough to complete every stf within the time limits... Even before season 7 i played some stf without escorts and I completed them (I remember a ISE, played by sci vessels only, completed in 9 minutes).
however it's not supposed that cruisers and sci vessels do the same job of escorts... this is a collaborative game, each ship has its role, so even if escorts can't tank enough, there are cruiser to help them (extending the shield, healing them, getting the agro) and sci vessels that help them to deal as much damage as possible (think about GW used to group enemies and let escorts using AoE attacks).
If you want dps, fly escort, but do not expect to be a tank... you must fly, buff yourself, fire and running away, than again and again and again...
If you want be able to tank a cube, use a cruiser... but do not expect to be fast and have the same dps of an escort. Your role is getting the agro and healing yorself and your teammates... You can have enough dps, but not the dps of an escort.
And finally if you want to be a damned plague, fly a sci vessel... you will not have the dps of an escort, not the tank ability of a cruiser... but what satifation: GW and TB to stop enemy, TBR to repulse them, destroy their heavy torpedos, sensor scan to debuff their resistance, abilities to drain energy, others to buff your teammates... and torpedos to deal enough damage, expecially if my tractor beam catch my opponent.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Minus getting optional (both space and ground) you can pretty much get away with anything.
I messed up all of my builds to this day, still have no idea what I am doing and I feel overpowered playing elite.
I don't think the quality of players or the average user in sto warrents forced roles and strict builds.
If we had a game where you HAD to have a perfect tank to get through stf's, we'd never get anything done.
It's casual and down to earth, forgiving, in so many ways and that's just proper balance for the intended audience.
Throw in high end demands on proper build and big numbers stats mixed with a votekick function and I promise you this game would suffer rapidly and heavily.
I'd go as far as to say you can complete nearly everything with 2 people that can play - only some ground events require 3 people for triggers.
So basically it's set up to more than half your team not knowing what they are doing...
And that might not be very challenging to a person who spent 2-3 years learning and farming stats but my response to that is if you are bored go play pvp.
As far as getting killed by huge amounts of damage on stf well that's the only way you can justify calling it elite and simulate at least some degree of difficulty - to let people know yes you can actually die here.
Minus getting optional (both space and ground) you can pretty much get away with anything.
I messed up all of my builds to this day, still have no idea what I am doing and I feel overpowered playing elite.
I don't think the quality of players or the average user in sto warrents forced roles and strict builds.
If we had a game where you HAD to have a perfect tank to get through stf's, we'd never get anything done.
It's casual and down to earth, forgiving, in so many ways and that's just proper balance for the intended audience.
Throw in high end demands on proper build and big numbers stats mixed with a votekick function and I promise you this game would suffer rapidly and heavily.
I'd go as far as to say you can complete nearly everything with 2 people that can play - only some ground events require 3 people for triggers.
So basically it's set up to more than half your team not knowing what they are doing...
And that might not be very challenging to a person who spent 2-3 years learning and farming stats but my response to that is if you are bored go play pvp.
As far as getting killed by huge amounts of damage on stf well that's the only way you can justify calling it elite and simulate at least some degree of difficulty - to let people know yes you can actually die here.
Not many folks would agree with this. There's quite a bit of truth to it, though.
Over the past 5-6 years, there's been a growing trend for the "efficiency" crowd to change the minimum requirements for content in MMOs.
Something that requires X - suddenly requires Y. It doesn't really require Y, it still requires X. Some players want it to require Y - because Y's more efficient. Y definitely is more efficient...but Y's not required. X is. Yet to them, Y is the requirement. Hell, some require Z...but it's still just X.
The funny thing is some folks at Z will complain that the content's too easy. Duh, it's designed for X.
Its worse than that, those suggested changes make characters be and FEEL less powerful than NPCs. That only works in ultra hardcore survival style games.
In this game we have 3 different kind of ships (and some hybrid), each ship is somehow a balance (dps, resistance...), each ships is designed to play a role... this is equivalent to classes in other games. If you play a role (ex. the healer) trying to do something different (ex. damage) you are simply doing it wrong.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Its worse than that, those suggested changes make characters be and FEEL less powerful than NPCs. That only works in ultra hardcore survival style games.
The hero is heroic by overcoming something... if it's just shooting fish in a barrel, then you're just looking at a bully.
It's a form of munchkin gaming - powergaming... it's incredibly tedious.
It's not just ultra hardcore survival style games... even Bejeweled offers a challenge.
Running an ESTF means you are ok with actually having to work with your team and keep an eye out for high danger targets/enemies. Aka Heavy Plasma Torps.
Get off your high horse, get your head out of your rear, and tell us how your team is able to "keep an eye out" for invisible Borg torpedoes that kill you in one hit.
Like I said it deserved a massive thread on its own.
Ideally, changes like that would be for advanced and elite play, where the best rewards could be earned.
With "normal" continuing to the be pushover content that it currently is - but having correspondingly lower rewards (which already exists in a fashion now with STFs).
The entire gaming being design for random teams kills any kind of challenging play.
Its worse than that, those suggested changes make characters be and FEEL less powerful than NPCs.
You are already less powerful than quite a few NPCs.
Besides, there was no where that I suggested you fight one, humongous, god-like NPC in every mission.
You could fight waves of NPCs, similar to No Win. The individual Players are quite clearly more powerful than any single NPC in that mission - but now you are facing overwhelming odds.
You know, like they often do in those Star Trek TV shows and movies.:rolleyes:
You can't have it all guys, you can't be invulnerable in your escort and do the most DPS on every single mission and never need a team and at the same time have a valuable space for Cruisers and Sci ships.
So the thread's OP still stands, currently in this game's PvE Tac/Escort is far and wide the best all around choice for the vast majority of content.
lol as an escort player myself all i ever see in stfs is low damage dealing cruisers that dont do there jobs right, how many points do you have in threat control hmmmm???? iv not ment 1 cruiser that can take the agro off me in an stf which that is your job isnt it? to tank? so if you cant take the aggro what use are you cruisers?, in fact most cruisers struggle to even take care of the probs in KSE, iv got to run around in most stfs like a headless chicken to cover the TRIBBLE of most cruisers.
When ever i jump into an stf and see a team of crusiers i know its a fail straight away, there are far more bad cruisers out there than escorts that is for sure
Your message seems to be somewhat inconsistent. You can't complain about cruisers doing low damage when you demand that they be consigned to a low damage role.
The reason you don't see a lot of people using threat control skill is that it's VERY expensive and serves a very limited purpose which relies on a particular team composition and team skill level in order to be effective. It also locks that player into flying cruisers and nothing else without buying a respec (which is laughably expensive).
The reason you don't see a lot of people using threat control skill is that it's VERY expensive and serves a very limited purpose which relies on a particular team composition and team skill level in order to be effective. It also locks that player into flying cruisers and nothing else without buying a respec (which is laughably expensive).
Tanking and healing are dedicated roles.
If you are unable to build your cruiser to do either, you should not be in a cruiser.
A cruiser that does not tank, or heal, is just a low damage, minimal value addition to the team.
That's what you get for having a game that is designed to benefit random teams, and be generally very easy.
There is very little role space for the Cruiser tank as it is, players only make it worse on themselves by specifically avoiding aggro and then not even having the courtesy to toss a single heal onto the allied escort clearly eating all of the NPC fire that should be going towards a tank to begin with.
Your message seems to be somewhat inconsistent. You can't complain about cruisers doing low damage when you demand that they be consigned to a low damage role.
The reason you don't see a lot of people using threat control skill is that it's VERY expensive and serves a very limited purpose which relies on a particular team composition and team skill level in order to be effective. It also locks that player into flying cruisers and nothing else without buying a respec (which is laughably expensive).
So yeah.
Threat control doesn't force you to fly only cruisers, it just forces you to put a greater emphasis on tanking skills than you might otherwise. I have been very successful at acting as the team tank in a Chimera-class escort with 6 points in Threat Control, and very rarely do I end up waiting for the respawn button. Nor do I feel that I missed out on skill points elsewhere because I put points in Threat Control, in fact I might have been forced to put points where I wouldn't need them if I tried to do without the points in Threat Control.
That said, cruisers are obviously generally designed to play tank in PvE content (not to say that's the ONLY role they can fill), but approaching that functionality is especially difficult given the greater capacity for DPS on escorts, which is the primary method for gaining threat. Other games that have tank classes include abilities and more than one passive skill to increase threat generation. STO has lacked this in the past, but it's nice to see further improvements on this with the Threat Control skill and consoles.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
lol as an escort player myself all i ever see in stfs is low damage dealing cruisers that dont do there jobs right, how many points do you have in threat control hmmmm???? iv not ment 1 cruiser that can take the agro off me in an stf which that is your job isnt it? to tank? so if you cant take the aggro what use are you cruisers?, in fact most cruisers struggle to even take care of the probs in KSE, iv got to run around in most stfs like a headless chicken to cover the TRIBBLE of most cruisers.
When ever i jump into an stf and see a team of crusiers i know its a fail straight away, there are far more bad cruisers out there than escorts that is for sure
This is so true...luckily my selfs heals will cover me for about a minute and a half with the Breen ship!
I cringe every time I see another useless odyssey or science ship.
a 1/4 hour later after reading everything in the thread...
I fly KDF. I am a sci in a Battlecruiser. I pull aggro off escorts/BOP's/Raptors all the time.
I just switched out of a mirror universe Vor'cha battlecruiser to a fleet K't'inga refit (serious sweetness by the by think of it as a escort on steroids). I expect I shall be causing even more damage to the Borg in STF's at this point, and take even less damage from them due to even greater manuverability allowing me to both avoid/mitigate incomeing damage, and manuver so as to keep my array of the Quad Disruptor and 3 AP DHC's [borg] on target and blasting away. Plus the additional shield ratings and add in the Sci captain special effects, and the typical cruiser type BOFF layout, along with a skill tree tuned for max damage/max survival space combat (zero points in torpedo/mines.. all about direct damage weps.. all about power levels, hull, and shield enhancement. Other skill are tuned to support my preffered BOFF powers)
If your seeing players with Feddy cruisers who are not grabbing aggro the most likely culprit is they simply do not understand thier player character skill trees. Don't ***** at em.. grab em and educate them.. there is in game voice chat.. be polite, use the tools at your command and educate your fellow players. The thing about STF's is its a TEAM effort. Educate one fellow player a week on the condition that they must educate one other player per week and in a short amount of time STF's will be walk in the park with time to take pictures and walk the selat.
I make a point of not calling people newb. noob, etc. There are several reasons for this..
1. It's insulting
2. It alienates the listener and prevents communication.
3. When your doing that your not creating a solution, your being part of the problem.
4. STOP using abbreviations in posts on the forums other then the simplest. Just because you have managed to pick up on STO tech speak does not mean that your reader/listener has.
5. Your playing the part of a STARSHIP CAPTAIN in STO... so act like one instead of jerky know it all leet creep.. I know from decades of real world life experience that an "I'm leet and your not" attitude will come back and eventually bite you in a seriously uncomfortable place.
Yes, once apon a time you were ignorant and didn't know how to make a starship sit up and do battle magic, and you learned the hard way. Good for you. You've earned the kudo's. Now, SHARE that hard earned knowledge and earn the respect!
..And just as a little it of additional wisdom.. if you think that what I've written here doesn't apply to you, and all it elicets from you is a snort of derission. Maybe you better read it again. Peoples ego's get in the way of thier progreess all the time.. It is an avoidable mistake.
I don't know where people get the idea that cruisers are supposed to be tanks or healers. It must be some strange idea from one of those other games. If you think that, you are simply wrong.
Ships in this game do not get heals or taunts just for being that class of ship. They are what you make of them. Granted most people suck at making their ships excel, or sometimes even just be useful, but that is true of any game.
Cross healing is something every ship should do if they have a heal power, especially escorts. DPS is also something every ship should be doing. Trying to pigeonhole a ship into a role is nonsense, because this game has never been set up that way.
Comments
That's a megathread on it's own.
Let's see if I can sum up:
1) Re-balance NPC damage.
*Ultra-spike needs to be toned down further or eliminated outright of very limited use gimmick attakcs.
*General average DPS of NPCs should be increased to the point where it creates pressure on a cruiser's ability to maintain constant healing - few if any escorts will have enough resources to maintain healing vs. this level of pressure damage.
*Boss fights should have an average DPS that is high enough to outright outpace a single cruiser's ability to survive through extreme pressure damage - a second tank or healer would be required to survive.
*Rebalance new Romulan Embassy Consoles - consoles that add +THREAT should be limited to consoles that also offer survivability increases. Consoles that offer -THREAT would not offer survivability increases and would instead be linked to improving debuff type sci powers.
Re-balance content to require crowd control
*Missions should put players in situations where crowd control is critical, and not simply "nice to have a GW 1 on an escort".
There's really a lot that would need to be done and these are just a few drops in the bucket, and quite frankly we are on a runaway train at this point.
The devs keep the content easy to require no specific team comp because that most likely fits best with a free to play, pug queue teaming system.
Fine, then relegate all of the normal content and lower tier rewards to the PUG queue system - Elite content should be harder and require at least some roles (not specific ships or captains, roles) to be covered for optimal completion.
It's only hard for this game, it's been done in MMOs for a very, very long time.
I don't think we need specifically holy trinity play, but there should be some role emphasis considered for all mission content.
What we have now are STFs that require DPS above all, PvE queue events that are the worst examples of spacebar mashing to freedom, and a few one off missions that are token "bring your control build" missions.
We need roles to be useful in all missions and not just a few one offs.
If I'm done be patronized by the thread. :P
The only means I've seen of reliably shooting them down it scatter volley. The torpedo tend to blend into the background on something like elite.
1) I play a support role. I'm not God. I can't watch every detail at once.
2) Photonic Shockwave is a punk to use because of the short range. You have to focus on the torpedo above all else to hit it at about 2.5Km. Any further and you're likely to miss. Any closer and the torpedo has a good chance to hit before server gets around to saying "Oh, I should maybe apply damage to the torpedo."
Considering their travel speed, that about a 1-2 second you have to ignore everything else. Like say a shield failing and being hammer away at by cannons and 800per second plasma dot?
3) Fire at Will is often a death sentence. Sure, it will a torpedo, but it will also bring down the wrath of everything in 10Km. Also doing negotiable damage if there are more then two targets _anywhere_ inside that 10Km sphere.
The only use I've found for FaW is taking out fighters, and you'll lose more ground to the lower total DPS then you will slow down a carrier on top of spamming fighters.
4)Tractor beam will instantly kill one torpedo, but is only partially effective vs. one target. It also requires you have nothing else distracting you so you can target the torpedo in a timely fashion or other more practical uses for it.
5) Fighters while probably the most effective option are: A) a high attention sinks
Now that I've answered a few of the point patronizing me, I'll go back to the OP?
Why not a HDC with scatter volley will always kill the torpedo offend before the animation comes out from behind the cube, doesn't aggro half the map, maintains a high pressure on the target, and if your going to die anyway?
They can get back on point faster then anything else.
I think a point here is missing here: HDC or even HC are not just effective, they are that effective because every other abilities are so have trivialized.
Before you go shooting off how I'm after nerfing cannons, I don't have a problem with escorts being ship killers. I have a problem with how everything else failing in their use so badly.
For example, you could have Borg Cubes completely arrest one of the ships attacking it. Catch it in some kind of stasis bubble. That player automatically loses all aggro and is forever stuck until he somehow dies.
To get rid of the bubble and be able to move again, you need help from a Science Vessel's 'elite' ability. (Note this is not a console or device, it's something the PLAYER automaticall receives if he is a science officer in a science ship)
Then maybe give them a huge linked AoE attack that debuffs everyone's hull in a 50 km radius (something like a shipborne nano-virus, or "termites") and you need an Engineer in a Cruiser to actually get rid of it.
Only if a game has hard lock-ins towards classes like in the above examples would you have proper classes.
You simply wouldn't be able to pew-pew at the Borg without science and engineer officers in their respective ship types, and thus, people would be forced to play them.
Of course, tactical would get some token cause/effect ability too, but that would be besides the point.
The above are only examples, but show what kind of game design thinking is required to have players actually use their careers properly.
bloodpact.net
"The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it."
-Michelangelo
I'm at the conclusion that the cube fires 3 torps at a time with only 1 being visable. My ADS saves me from the visable one but cannot knock out the invis ones.
As an escort I am thrilled to see a tank who can hold aggro, otherwise i usually find myself as the primary target.
As the tank I believe you can not fight the borg standing still. What i do is point different shield facings toward my target for no longer than 3-5 seconds. I fly around at 3/4 impulse for a balance of speed and manuverability.
The problem i see most in PuG STF is how you end up with bad composition. Too many escorts might be ok due to damage output. Too many tanks? You're screwed!
Lol. This guy. Just... lol...
Yes, there was a patch a few weeks back in which the Borg spike damage was reduced by 20%. Even though getting hit for 80% of 300k is still 240k which will still usually kill it's target. The Borg also do not crit anymore. However as a direct result, their regular damage ability was greatly increased. Tough. ****. And yes, the Borg were nerfed. They had a massive AI upgrade about 3 weeks before S7 went live, and during that time the rage threads on the forums went through the roof, and as such the Borg were reduced to stupid again.
Running an ESTF means you are ok with actually having to work with your team and keep an eye out for high danger targets/enemies. Aka Heavy Plasma Torps. And if you die outside of enemy range it just means there was a torp you outran that just took a little longer to hit you.
And us "forum bigmouths" are players who actually pay attention and know what they are doing. We don't think we're better than you, we're just better at staying alive. We're better at predicting patterns, we're better at knowing what an NPCs pre-programming is.
So get off your high horse, get your head out of your rear, put on some monotaniums and a new diaper, and stop complaining.
Now that sounds absolutely insane and awesome at the same time. I hear people try to do something similar in Borg Red Alerts as well with Plasma Bolts.
I've never had the guts to try it myself... :P
You just killed solo play.
You just killed random teams.
You know why it fits best? Because people don't like to be forced to play with a specific team makeup and specific strategy in order to get anywhere.
Against a near fixed or fixed target, TBR3 puts out enough DPS to take a third to half of a cube or transformer's health, as will GW3.
A Fleet Excelsior, or ACR with just blue mrk XI energy weap consoles and fleet weapons can pump their beam arrays into the 1000 dps per array range, giving them slightly more firepower than the average escort.
Why NOT use those two? Especially with the Quantum turret and a Torpedo Spread 2 (or maybe three if you're lucky!) You don't need an escort to do DPS in an STF.
yes and not...
escorts deal many DPS, but have not so much hull and shield as cruisers and sci vessels. So they can and must destroy an opponent faster.
cruisers and sci vessels have less dps, but this only means that they need more time to destroy an opponent, but they have all the necessary to resist longer.
I use both a tactical toon on escorts and a sci toon on wells, both of them can easly destroy a cube... simply I need some more time (just some more seconds) if I am playing my sci toon. I'll tell more... in KSE my sci toon can manage one side solo, even better than my tactical toon (because of some usefull sci abilities like GW and TBR).
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
It's not such a tragedy...
First of all now we have weapons that let cruisers and sci vessels have much more dps than before, enough to complete every stf within the time limits... Even before season 7 i played some stf without escorts and I completed them (I remember a ISE, played by sci vessels only, completed in 9 minutes).
however it's not supposed that cruisers and sci vessels do the same job of escorts... this is a collaborative game, each ship has its role, so even if escorts can't tank enough, there are cruiser to help them (extending the shield, healing them, getting the agro) and sci vessels that help them to deal as much damage as possible (think about GW used to group enemies and let escorts using AoE attacks).
If you want dps, fly escort, but do not expect to be a tank... you must fly, buff yourself, fire and running away, than again and again and again...
If you want be able to tank a cube, use a cruiser... but do not expect to be fast and have the same dps of an escort. Your role is getting the agro and healing yorself and your teammates... You can have enough dps, but not the dps of an escort.
And finally if you want to be a damned plague, fly a sci vessel... you will not have the dps of an escort, not the tank ability of a cruiser... but what satifation: GW and TB to stop enemy, TBR to repulse them, destroy their heavy torpedos, sensor scan to debuff their resistance, abilities to drain energy, others to buff your teammates... and torpedos to deal enough damage, expecially if my tractor beam catch my opponent.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
I messed up all of my builds to this day, still have no idea what I am doing and I feel overpowered playing elite.
I don't think the quality of players or the average user in sto warrents forced roles and strict builds.
If we had a game where you HAD to have a perfect tank to get through stf's, we'd never get anything done.
It's casual and down to earth, forgiving, in so many ways and that's just proper balance for the intended audience.
Throw in high end demands on proper build and big numbers stats mixed with a votekick function and I promise you this game would suffer rapidly and heavily.
I'd go as far as to say you can complete nearly everything with 2 people that can play - only some ground events require 3 people for triggers.
So basically it's set up to more than half your team not knowing what they are doing...
And that might not be very challenging to a person who spent 2-3 years learning and farming stats but my response to that is if you are bored go play pvp.
As far as getting killed by huge amounts of damage on stf well that's the only way you can justify calling it elite and simulate at least some degree of difficulty - to let people know yes you can actually die here.
Not many folks would agree with this. There's quite a bit of truth to it, though.
Over the past 5-6 years, there's been a growing trend for the "efficiency" crowd to change the minimum requirements for content in MMOs.
Something that requires X - suddenly requires Y. It doesn't really require Y, it still requires X. Some players want it to require Y - because Y's more efficient. Y definitely is more efficient...but Y's not required. X is. Yet to them, Y is the requirement. Hell, some require Z...but it's still just X.
The funny thing is some folks at Z will complain that the content's too easy. Duh, it's designed for X.
Its worse than that, those suggested changes make characters be and FEEL less powerful than NPCs. That only works in ultra hardcore survival style games.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
The hero is heroic by overcoming something... if it's just shooting fish in a barrel, then you're just looking at a bully.
It's a form of munchkin gaming - powergaming... it's incredibly tedious.
It's not just ultra hardcore survival style games... even Bejeweled offers a challenge.
Lol. This guy. Just... lol...
Get off your high horse, get your head out of your rear, and tell us how your team is able to "keep an eye out" for invisible Borg torpedoes that kill you in one hit.
:rolleyes:
I thought it was pretty obvious that those changes would be for teaming content.
I don't really care if you faceroll your way to freedom solo.
Like I said it deserved a massive thread on its own.
Ideally, changes like that would be for advanced and elite play, where the best rewards could be earned.
With "normal" continuing to the be pushover content that it currently is - but having correspondingly lower rewards (which already exists in a fashion now with STFs).
The entire gaming being design for random teams kills any kind of challenging play.
No one would be forced to play elite teaming content, which is where these changes could take place.
Then you could remain happy pugging random normal missions.
You are already less powerful than quite a few NPCs.
Besides, there was no where that I suggested you fight one, humongous, god-like NPC in every mission.
You could fight waves of NPCs, similar to No Win. The individual Players are quite clearly more powerful than any single NPC in that mission - but now you are facing overwhelming odds.
You know, like they often do in those Star Trek TV shows and movies.:rolleyes:
You can't have it all guys, you can't be invulnerable in your escort and do the most DPS on every single mission and never need a team and at the same time have a valuable space for Cruisers and Sci ships.
So the thread's OP still stands, currently in this game's PvE Tac/Escort is far and wide the best all around choice for the vast majority of content.
Your message seems to be somewhat inconsistent. You can't complain about cruisers doing low damage when you demand that they be consigned to a low damage role.
The reason you don't see a lot of people using threat control skill is that it's VERY expensive and serves a very limited purpose which relies on a particular team composition and team skill level in order to be effective. It also locks that player into flying cruisers and nothing else without buying a respec (which is laughably expensive).
So yeah.
Tanking and healing are dedicated roles.
If you are unable to build your cruiser to do either, you should not be in a cruiser.
A cruiser that does not tank, or heal, is just a low damage, minimal value addition to the team.
That's what you get for having a game that is designed to benefit random teams, and be generally very easy.
There is very little role space for the Cruiser tank as it is, players only make it worse on themselves by specifically avoiding aggro and then not even having the courtesy to toss a single heal onto the allied escort clearly eating all of the NPC fire that should be going towards a tank to begin with.
Threat control doesn't force you to fly only cruisers, it just forces you to put a greater emphasis on tanking skills than you might otherwise. I have been very successful at acting as the team tank in a Chimera-class escort with 6 points in Threat Control, and very rarely do I end up waiting for the respawn button. Nor do I feel that I missed out on skill points elsewhere because I put points in Threat Control, in fact I might have been forced to put points where I wouldn't need them if I tried to do without the points in Threat Control.
That said, cruisers are obviously generally designed to play tank in PvE content (not to say that's the ONLY role they can fill), but approaching that functionality is especially difficult given the greater capacity for DPS on escorts, which is the primary method for gaining threat. Other games that have tank classes include abilities and more than one passive skill to increase threat generation. STO has lacked this in the past, but it's nice to see further improvements on this with the Threat Control skill and consoles.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
This is so true...luckily my selfs heals will cover me for about a minute and a half with the Breen ship!
I cringe every time I see another useless odyssey or science ship.
I fly KDF. I am a sci in a Battlecruiser. I pull aggro off escorts/BOP's/Raptors all the time.
I just switched out of a mirror universe Vor'cha battlecruiser to a fleet K't'inga refit (serious sweetness by the by think of it as a escort on steroids). I expect I shall be causing even more damage to the Borg in STF's at this point, and take even less damage from them due to even greater manuverability allowing me to both avoid/mitigate incomeing damage, and manuver so as to keep my array of the Quad Disruptor and 3 AP DHC's [borg] on target and blasting away. Plus the additional shield ratings and add in the Sci captain special effects, and the typical cruiser type BOFF layout, along with a skill tree tuned for max damage/max survival space combat (zero points in torpedo/mines.. all about direct damage weps.. all about power levels, hull, and shield enhancement. Other skill are tuned to support my preffered BOFF powers)
If your seeing players with Feddy cruisers who are not grabbing aggro the most likely culprit is they simply do not understand thier player character skill trees. Don't ***** at em.. grab em and educate them.. there is in game voice chat.. be polite, use the tools at your command and educate your fellow players. The thing about STF's is its a TEAM effort. Educate one fellow player a week on the condition that they must educate one other player per week and in a short amount of time STF's will be walk in the park with time to take pictures and walk the selat.
I make a point of not calling people newb. noob, etc. There are several reasons for this..
1. It's insulting
2. It alienates the listener and prevents communication.
3. When your doing that your not creating a solution, your being part of the problem.
4. STOP using abbreviations in posts on the forums other then the simplest. Just because you have managed to pick up on STO tech speak does not mean that your reader/listener has.
5. Your playing the part of a STARSHIP CAPTAIN in STO... so act like one instead of jerky know it all leet creep.. I know from decades of real world life experience that an "I'm leet and your not" attitude will come back and eventually bite you in a seriously uncomfortable place.
Yes, once apon a time you were ignorant and didn't know how to make a starship sit up and do battle magic, and you learned the hard way. Good for you. You've earned the kudo's. Now, SHARE that hard earned knowledge and earn the respect!
..And just as a little it of additional wisdom.. if you think that what I've written here doesn't apply to you, and all it elicets from you is a snort of derission. Maybe you better read it again. Peoples ego's get in the way of thier progreess all the time.. It is an avoidable mistake.
Khemaraa Sends
Ships in this game do not get heals or taunts just for being that class of ship. They are what you make of them. Granted most people suck at making their ships excel, or sometimes even just be useful, but that is true of any game.
Cross healing is something every ship should do if they have a heal power, especially escorts. DPS is also something every ship should be doing. Trying to pigeonhole a ship into a role is nonsense, because this game has never been set up that way.