My Orion Captain Susher has just joined a Fleet today, Klingon Intelligence. So far I have contributed stuff in value of over 17,000 fleet credits already.
This includes alot of science officers, 3 warp coils I had on me, and thousands in Dilithium.
I'm new to this fleet thing so I don't know anything about fleet missions yet.
I like contributing to my fleet because everyone benifits.
Still isn't the fleet credit system in essence the fleet tax system? You pay in resources that fund fleet projects, which when completed benifit everyone, and in return you are rewarded with fleet credits which allow to access to the rewards of fleet society, like fleet ships, fleet weapons, and in time fleet hangars.
And why the socialism bashing?
I hate to break it to you, but the Federation is a socialist society, abit of the Utopian Socialist strain, with elements of Liberation socialism perhaps, not marxist socialism.
The comments here make me think the Ferengi should be the next faction
You are characterizing it all wrong. I can see how that might be the case in some fleets, but not all. On my fleet our fearless leader has gotten SIX times as many fleet credits with his main as I have, and even has an alt that has contributed MORE than my main. Just to give you an idea of the kinds of numbers we're talking about, my main is on the leaderboard's "front page" (11nth as of today) and the fleet is LvL 16.... That kind of dedication and commitment by our leader deserves respect. We're not building his castle, we're building a castle for all of us. There IS a difference.
Or he's spending Zen for Dil and flooding that into the projects. Which is entirely up to him, but should not be used as an example for how others should contribute.
Or he's spending Zen for Dil and flooding that into the projects. Which is entirely up to him, but should not be used as an example for how others should contribute.
I don't think it was an example of how others should contribute, as much as it was a counter example to the idea that starbases are always about a fleet lead mooching off the rest of the fleet.
_________________________ TRIBBLE | -Show Me Your Critz- Svarog | Veles | et al.
Fleet credits, as has been pointed out, is already the system by which this is regulated. It allows you to contribute wherever you can, and pull back out of the system something equivalent to what you put in. Maybe you paid into provisioning Engineering Operational Assets, but you can spend the value of that contribution on a ship instead. It allows people to buy what they want, but not exceed the value of what they put in. So what if somebody doesn't contribute dilithium? If they have Fleet Credit enough to buy something, they obviously contributed enough of something else to pay for that.
I can see the complaint maybe if your Fleet is having a problem where your projects always hang up on Dilithium because nobody wants to chip that in. In the case of my fleet, Dilithium is always one of the first things to fill because it's the best earner. After Dil, Expertise, and common commodities, there may be a bit of a hangup on Doffs, but almost always what holds the project up from starting is Marks. If people are actually earning Fleet Marks to fill projects faster than they're chipping in the dilithium, you may need to have a chat with your fleet members because something is off.
The only thing I can say in relation to this that might make sense is a voluntary witholding, rather than a tax. I think somebody may have brought this up already, but still called it a tax. Really, it's more like deciding to withold a portion of your income toward your retirement. It's purely voluntary, and just a measure to help players budget their income automatically.
See this is why I'm in a small fleet. We don't have to worry about this bc everybody knows (and trust) everybody... and despite being small we ALWAYS have more then enough supplys/proviosions... no need to lock even new members bc the leadership doesn't invite just anyone in just for numbers...
Or he's spending Zen for Dil and flooding that into the projects. Which is entirely up to him, but should not be used as an example for how others should contribute.
Either way, it shows not all fleet leaders are asking others to do more than they do themselves.
I don't think it was an example of how others should contribute, as much as it was a counter example to the idea that starbases are always about a fleet lead mooching off the rest of the fleet.
Good point!
I agree with you completely, and with the other poster (skyranger1414) who wrote something similar.
Heh, the peasants aren't voluntarily sacrificing enough to fund Great Leader's Glorious Vision Of The Future? Mandate that volunteerism!
Ya, basically that. Every game that I have played that had a Tax system in their Guild/Organization/Fleet w/e, the mandatory Tax has been unpopular. Players don't like their character income taken any more than irl people do. Groups that force a tax upon it's member have usually been very unpopular groups. "What?! You guys Tax? i'm out!" *so-and-so left the group*
[SIGPIC]Handle: @kirian_darkstar
Registered: Oct/2009 , LTS : Feb/2011
Fleets: Warriors of the Phoenix, Kirian Industries[/SIGPIC] Three years and still no Captain Klaa hair...
Ya, basically that. Every game that I have played that had a Tax system in their Guild/Organization/Fleet w/e, the mandatory Tax has been unpopular. Players don't like their character income taken any more than irl people do. Groups that force a tax upon it's member have usually been very unpopular groups. "What?! You guys Tax? i'm out!" *so-and-so left the group*
Well certainly. Who do such leaders think they are exactly, deciding where other people's money goes, that the underlings need to just do as their told or else be forced to? I'll donate what I can to the projects that I think are a good idea, and zip for the ones that make me roll my eyes. Don't need some self-styled aristocracy making my decisions for me, particularly when we disagree. Free association FTW.
Perhaps this is naive, but.... why not have people in your fleet who actually support & contribute to it, instead of having to tax them?
(I mean, isn't that the point of joining an organization like that? To be part of it and support it? That's certainly why I haven't joined fleets, or guilds in other games - I don't want my play time to be beholden to a group of other people, so that my time is not my own. The idea of "joining" a guild, but being all offended when they expect you to actually put your resources/time/etc into the group, is strange to me.)
I very much doubt a fleet could successfully pull off a taxation system. It would just drive too many players away, and it wouldn't help foster a culture of cooperation.
Taxes in real life are paid for services, such as protection and civic improvements, that can't be provided otherwise, and are provided to everyone. They're involuntary because all the citizens of a locality benefit from those services, and so are obligated to financially support them. If taxes are too high and/or benefits too low, people will often move elsewhere.
A fleet would have to provide quite a lot to justify a tax. They'd have to provide more than just the projects (which many do for free). And on top of that, many 'free' fleets are quite generous, and any taxed fleet would have to be even more helpful. It's just impossible to provide a good deal for fleet members with a tax.
Taxes are quite attractive to the recipients, since it often gets more funds than voluntary donations. But the only ethical way to do it is to very clearly and obviously announce the tax to everyone, and only tax those who stay. But by then you would probably get less dilithium than donations
Take a look at my Foundry missions! Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
The only thing a fleet really needs from its' members (aside from participation in fleet activities) is contributions to fleet projects.
This is already gated by who is allowed to contribute and how much they contribute.
The people who are already contributing have enough of a drain on their resources. They shouldn't be penalized.
The people who aren't contributing aren't earning fleet credits. They can't buy anything worth buying from the fleet store, and they can be locked out of the fleet store in any case. At best, they get free use of some of the fleet facilities like the transwarps and those don't cost anything once the upgrade is completed.
A mandatory tax just encourages people to leave, unless it's the same mandatory tax everywhere... which Cryptic won't do because then they have to take the heat for it.
I think you are wrong here that taxes are only evil. In RL people are paying taxes for public services and the same goes slightly changed for a fleet, were people pay the DL tax for access to the fleet ressources.
The transwarp gate is a poor example. Yes the use is free until it is build, but building it is extremely costly and with the provisions you essentially brought a double payment into the game. First members have to pay for provisions, then they have to pay to use the provisions and this system is even more unfair then anything like 10% tax.
Also I am not a fleet leader, but I donated a lot of my personal DL into this black hole called starbase , for a long time we left the fleet store open to lower ranks but since was abused we are now going to same route as other fleets. Access is restricted to lower ranks until they show activity and willingness to contribute.
I am here to ENOJY the game, and spend the resources I, as in ME, decided to spend, and I would not want a single of my fleet members being forced to anything other.
I will dissolve my fleet, before I support this stupid idea.
If you want to pay taxes in a game, make your own.
I'm here for fun too, but I enjoy helping my fleet.
Seems this tax system could be set from 0% to say 60% Your fleet could choose to go with the every man for himself approach while others could tax 2, 45, 10, whatever percent in order to allow everyone to contribute to the well being of the fleet as a whole.
If folks are going to leave a fleet that charges 5% than fleets like yours set at 0 will gain more folks
Personally I like the Idea. beats pointing out what our fleet needs and trying to get folks to feel obligated to pitch in. A small tax would be totally painless and do the most good for the fleet as a whole.
Fleets that want to, set it at 0% and opt out.
Beside, those who are taxed would be receiving fleet credits in exchange anyway so they are also helping themselves too.
Comments
This includes alot of science officers, 3 warp coils I had on me, and thousands in Dilithium.
I'm new to this fleet thing so I don't know anything about fleet missions yet.
I like contributing to my fleet because everyone benifits.
Still isn't the fleet credit system in essence the fleet tax system? You pay in resources that fund fleet projects, which when completed benifit everyone, and in return you are rewarded with fleet credits which allow to access to the rewards of fleet society, like fleet ships, fleet weapons, and in time fleet hangars.
And why the socialism bashing?
I hate to break it to you, but the Federation is a socialist society, abit of the Utopian Socialist strain, with elements of Liberation socialism perhaps, not marxist socialism.
The comments here make me think the Ferengi should be the next faction
Or he's spending Zen for Dil and flooding that into the projects. Which is entirely up to him, but should not be used as an example for how others should contribute.
I don't think it was an example of how others should contribute, as much as it was a counter example to the idea that starbases are always about a fleet lead mooching off the rest of the fleet.
TRIBBLE | -Show Me Your Critz-
Svarog | Veles | et al.
I can see the complaint maybe if your Fleet is having a problem where your projects always hang up on Dilithium because nobody wants to chip that in. In the case of my fleet, Dilithium is always one of the first things to fill because it's the best earner. After Dil, Expertise, and common commodities, there may be a bit of a hangup on Doffs, but almost always what holds the project up from starting is Marks. If people are actually earning Fleet Marks to fill projects faster than they're chipping in the dilithium, you may need to have a chat with your fleet members because something is off.
The only thing I can say in relation to this that might make sense is a voluntary witholding, rather than a tax. I think somebody may have brought this up already, but still called it a tax. Really, it's more like deciding to withold a portion of your income toward your retirement. It's purely voluntary, and just a measure to help players budget their income automatically.
Either way, it shows not all fleet leaders are asking others to do more than they do themselves.
Good point!
I agree with you completely, and with the other poster (skyranger1414) who wrote something similar.
Ya, basically that. Every game that I have played that had a Tax system in their Guild/Organization/Fleet w/e, the mandatory Tax has been unpopular. Players don't like their character income taken any more than irl people do. Groups that force a tax upon it's member have usually been very unpopular groups. "What?! You guys Tax? i'm out!" *so-and-so left the group*
Registered: Oct/2009 , LTS : Feb/2011
Fleets: Warriors of the Phoenix, Kirian Industries[/SIGPIC]
Three years and still no Captain Klaa hair...
That means, instead of a fleet tax, we make it a fleet bonus. :cool:
You are in a fleet and get 960 dilithium and a bonus of 9.6 dilithium is automatically generated and put into the fleet.
BAM! fixed
You lose nothing and the fleet fills up that dilithium slowly but steady, just by members playing normally.
You are welcome (with John Hodgeman)
Well certainly. Who do such leaders think they are exactly, deciding where other people's money goes, that the underlings need to just do as their told or else be forced to? I'll donate what I can to the projects that I think are a good idea, and zip for the ones that make me roll my eyes. Don't need some self-styled aristocracy making my decisions for me, particularly when we disagree. Free association FTW.
(I mean, isn't that the point of joining an organization like that? To be part of it and support it? That's certainly why I haven't joined fleets, or guilds in other games - I don't want my play time to be beholden to a group of other people, so that my time is not my own. The idea of "joining" a guild, but being all offended when they expect you to actually put your resources/time/etc into the group, is strange to me.)
Taxes in real life are paid for services, such as protection and civic improvements, that can't be provided otherwise, and are provided to everyone. They're involuntary because all the citizens of a locality benefit from those services, and so are obligated to financially support them. If taxes are too high and/or benefits too low, people will often move elsewhere.
A fleet would have to provide quite a lot to justify a tax. They'd have to provide more than just the projects (which many do for free). And on top of that, many 'free' fleets are quite generous, and any taxed fleet would have to be even more helpful. It's just impossible to provide a good deal for fleet members with a tax.
Taxes are quite attractive to the recipients, since it often gets more funds than voluntary donations. But the only ethical way to do it is to very clearly and obviously announce the tax to everyone, and only tax those who stay. But by then you would probably get less dilithium than donations
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I think you are wrong here that taxes are only evil. In RL people are paying taxes for public services and the same goes slightly changed for a fleet, were people pay the DL tax for access to the fleet ressources.
The transwarp gate is a poor example. Yes the use is free until it is build, but building it is extremely costly and with the provisions you essentially brought a double payment into the game. First members have to pay for provisions, then they have to pay to use the provisions and this system is even more unfair then anything like 10% tax.
Also I am not a fleet leader, but I donated a lot of my personal DL into this black hole called starbase , for a long time we left the fleet store open to lower ranks but since was abused we are now going to same route as other fleets. Access is restricted to lower ranks until they show activity and willingness to contribute.
I'm here for fun too, but I enjoy helping my fleet.
Seems this tax system could be set from 0% to say 60% Your fleet could choose to go with the every man for himself approach while others could tax 2, 45, 10, whatever percent in order to allow everyone to contribute to the well being of the fleet as a whole.
If folks are going to leave a fleet that charges 5% than fleets like yours set at 0 will gain more folks
Personally I like the Idea. beats pointing out what our fleet needs and trying to get folks to feel obligated to pitch in. A small tax would be totally painless and do the most good for the fleet as a whole.
Fleets that want to, set it at 0% and opt out.
Beside, those who are taxed would be receiving fleet credits in exchange anyway so they are also helping themselves too.
Pretty simple and works for everyone.