I assumed he was refering to the fleet varient ships, not the KDF Zen store which there's been next to nothing released.
There were 2 problems w/the fleet varient's:
1. The cost
2. The poor product
Seriously who would pay 2k zen or w/e 4 ship units cost for just 1 xtra Tac console and slight shield/hp buff per toon? Or otherthan novelty pay for 16k hull raider?
With the exception of the Vet ship (not a fleet/zen ship) the destroyers while fun to play, don't fit the hit and run raider style. Also, the boff/console layouts were generally a bit lacking imo.
They've added a fleet b'rel, but that's T5 and the xtra console is in the worst slot. It should have been a 4th sci.
The Fleet Torkhat is imo the best Fleet ship option.
The Vet ship is a nice destroyer raider hybrid (imo better than what the vast majority of the fleet ship options are). But, not sure I'd count on additional lifers sales to get it.
The Fleet Somraw seems like an ok option, but it lacks the movement and 5th tac console of the Fed Escorts. Tbh, I'd rather fly the Fleet Torkaht.
The Fleet Sci ships lack the movement needed to stay w/a hit and run playstyle team and are lacking compared to the many Fed options.
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at this point, I'd like to see some combat logs from PvP on that ship, if you don't mind, and maybe some confirmed kill-counts directed at non-borg opposition, preferably the kind that actually is capable of thinking rather than following a preset pattern of movement.
Reason being, your position is counter-intuitive for those of us whom have used both Cruisers of the slow variety, and any(or every) thing besides. High potential DPS means nothing if you can't get the guns to bear, which is the primary problem the rest of us have believeing there is a special 'superior skill' to using a ship that handles like a city bus with flat tyres and bad brakes.
ESPECIALLY one whose DPS is reliant on a main weapon that has a narrow firing arc and a long cooldown.
now, maybe just sharing your build with the panel would be enough-someone else could hop on Tribble and run a comparison test...
It can be used in PVP, i use it everyday for it, and this "superior skill" you speak of is called the right abilities and tactics. All in all, my ship alone has killed more than 30 individual players. And i've only had it for a few weeks. It can do DPS just as well as any vor'cha i've seen.
And we could put our builds up, but we've put enough work into them thatat least i have no intentions of doing so, you want to test it, fight against it. You'll find out then. Until then, you know nothing to judge how we use our ships
I agree, that most people who go Klingon want something different form the Fed ships, or they'd still be flying Fed. The Bortas'qu fills a gap, don't get me wrong, but it's not one that urgently needed filling. I can't think of anything it can do that either of the fleet Vor'cha or Negh'var could do better either.
For me personally, after having good handling cruisers, going to one that handles like a drunk pig in treacle is not my idea of a good time.
As for "lost money on", I think Cryptic is pulling a bit of a cop-out here. I'd love to see a Bird of Prey equivalent to the Vesta though, a nice big bird, with 3 flavours, and lots of pew-pew. I'd buy that. If only there were some much requested BoP... like a K'vort or something...
Federation iconic ship: Cruiser. Gobs of money made
Klingon iconic ship: Bird of Prey. Gobs of money lost when they build a cruiser instead.
:rolleyes:
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I thought the main reason the Bortasqu ost money is because all the time leading up to its release we were saying how much we loved it as it had plenty of potential firepower and a pretty neat ability to tank.
Just before it got released however they nerfed its turn even more, gimped its cloak and moved all shield defenses onto Sci slots which the Bortas is severely crippled on. Basically they killed it for us just prior to release.
I wouldnt have a Bortas pack now if it was given away as a bonus to buying a Hydrospray.
I'm not convinced the Bortasq is really the ship they lost money with. I see plenty of them around and shortly after release Qonos orbit was filled with them.
My money would be on some fleet ships. Cheap rehashes and all that, but do you guys know anybody flying a fleet raptor or BoP ? I just know two or three people getting a fleet Raptor and just one going for the fugly skeleton BoP.
Fleet Kar'fi would be in high demand imho, but...
Fleet B'rel is TRIBBLE, too. While I love the B'rel retrofit the fleet B'rel is underwhelming. I may go for it anyway, for that bit more HP, but wtf should I do with the additional engineering slot ? Maybe a universal console will find it's way int there, but that's it. :mad:
The BoP could be called 'iconic' because that's pretty much all we ever saw in TNG and later. There were exceptions, but not many of them.
I'd agree that the D7 is also an 'iconic' ship. They've been around a lot longer, and strongly identified with long before we ever saw a BoP. But now that I've flown BoP's I have a hard time wanting to fly a battlecruiser.
I'd have to agree with the Bortasq' not being a ship I'd want to fly, let alone buy. I have one of the freebies and I've never bothered to unpack it after I'd test flown one and saw all of the stats. On the other hand, I was sorely tempted to buy an Oddy pack even though the inertia makes it a beast to pilot. But, for now, I'm sticking with my free Odyssey.
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I thought the main reason the Bortasqu ost money is because all the time leading up to its release we were saying how much we loved it as it had plenty of potential firepower and a pretty neat ability to tank.
Just before it got released however they nerfed its turn even more, gimped its cloak and moved all shield defenses onto Sci slots which the Bortas is severely crippled on. Basically they killed it for us just prior to release.
I wouldnt have a Bortas pack now if it was given away as a bonus to buying a Hydrospray.
I think you've just solved the mystery.
In testing the Bortasqu was getting rave reviews and then Cryptic severely gimped it before it went live.
I had forgotten all the rage posts about how the Bortasqu was crippled beyond all belief but the Odyssey was barely touch and pretty much played the same has it was on tribble.
The BoP could be called 'iconic' because that's pretty much all we ever saw in TNG and later. There were exceptions, but not many of them.
I'd agree that the D7 is also an 'iconic' ship. They've been around a lot longer, and strongly identified with long before we ever saw a BoP. But now that I've flown BoP's I have a hard time wanting to fly a battlecruiser.
I'd have to agree with the Bortasq' not being a ship I'd want to fly, let alone buy. I have one of the freebies and I've never bothered to unpack it after I'd test flown one and saw all of the stats. On the other hand, I was sorely tempted to buy an Oddy pack even though the inertia makes it a beast to pilot. But, for now, I'm sticking with my free Odyssey.
Well, not to get pulled into the 'most iconic' debate again I'll concede that BoPs were seen more post film era, my guess is with empire dying BoP's were cheaper to build and crew so there likely were more on patrol while larger ships were aiding in the evacuation of the homeworld.
That does not explain why the game chose to include more powerful versions of a scout ship than the mainstay of the Klingon fleet for generations. Having started this game in BoPs and eventually test flying the free D7 I quickly moved to the more balanced (and powerful) Raptor class but wish to return to the cruiser IF cryptic could figure out that a battlecruiser is NOT a science ship nor healer. They gave us a tactical Bortas that can't turn around without the gravatic help of a nearby star, so why can't they do the same for our iconic battlecruiser (with better than cruiserlike maneuverability)???
I play KDF, but I don't like Klingon ships. I've bought the Orion, Gorn and Nausicaan ships because I love their designs. Too bad there aren't bridges to go with those ships.
Corry to drag up the "iconic" thing. D7 is clearly the most iconic TOS KDF ship. Post-TOS (Films and later) the BoP has clearly become the ship we se associated instantly on screen with the KDF.
Yes there are other examples, just not as common is all.
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Well, not to get pulled into the 'most iconic' debate again I'll concede that BoPs were seen more post film era, my guess is with empire dying BoP's were cheaper to build and crew so there likely were more on patrol while larger ships were aiding in the evacuation of the homeworld.
That does not explain why the game chose to include more powerful versions of a scout ship than the mainstay of the Klingon fleet for generations. Having started this game in BoPs and eventually test flying the free D7 I quickly moved to the more balanced (and powerful) Raptor class but wish to return to the cruiser IF cryptic could figure out that a battlecruiser is NOT a science ship nor healer. They gave us a tactical Bortas that can't turn around without the gravatic help of a nearby star, so why can't they do the same for our iconic battlecruiser (with better than cruiserlike maneuverability)???
Regarding the BoP/Raptor setup: I agree, I don't really see why they put in the raptors. The Bird of Prey class is just as oriented for DPSing, albeit with more maneuverability. With the universal consoles, it's also a jack-of-all trades. . .except for the fact that it can't tank as well as an escort, let alone a science ship or cruiser. That limits what it can do, as most BoPs have to rely on their battlecloak to stay hidden and choose their battles.
All you would have to do to obsolete the raptors would be to buff the BoP hull and shield mod. That's the biggest difference that I can see. So yeah, the raptor class never made that much sense.
If the BoP could reasonably stand in as an escort and as a light tanker/shield tanker, I would have much less issue with there being no dedicated science class for the KDF ships, since the BoP does an ok job at using sci builds. The universal boffs work wonders in the right hands.
Of course, then the Feddies would howl and whine about it being 'OP!!!', and demand a counterpart or a nerf. . .despite the advantages they already have.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
Regarding iconic ship styles: I personally don't care what my Klingon ships look like. With the amount of abilities being used in PvP, the appearance of your ship is meaningless because you can't see it clearly half the time. Not to mention I spend most of my time cloaked.
As long as the ship has the general Klingon 'look' (wings with engines, central portion, and then neck section jutting forward), I could care less about the aesthetic details. I care far more about the stats. The looks aren't a factor at all when I'm considering a ship's merits, beyond an initial 'not bad' when they come up with a particularly cool looking design. I personally find it confusing that someone would seriously wave away a ship's disadvantages with the logic of 'It looks COOL!!!'.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
Regarding the BoP/Raptor setup: I agree, I don't really see why they put in the raptors. The Bird of Prey class is just as oriented for DPSing, albeit with more maneuverability. With the universal consoles, it's also a jack-of-all trades. . .except for the fact that it can't tank as well as an escort, let alone a science ship or cruiser. That limits what it can do, as most BoPs have to rely on their battlecloak to stay hidden and choose their battles.
All you would have to do to obsolete the raptors would be to buff the BoP hull and shield mod. That's the biggest difference that I can see. So yeah, the raptor class never made that much sense.
If the BoP could reasonably stand in as an escort and as a light tanker/shield tanker, I would have much less issue with there being no dedicated science class for the KDF ships, since the BoP does an ok job at using sci builds. The universal boffs work wonders in the right hands.
Of course, then the Feddies would howl and whine about it being 'OP!!!', and demand a counterpart or a nerf. . .despite the advantages they already have.
Before TNG I never knew raptors existed, always figured there were unknown classes between the raiders and the battlecruisers but never gave them much though. After they were introduced I figured they were more of a fast attack gunboat (like WW2 light cruisers) but noticed as more of them were put on screen, the more powerful they became. We've reached the point (with STO) where BoP's (who are so messed up sizewise due to faulty canon) and raptors (a recent addition to canon) are more powerful than the warship that introduced the warlike race to fans, and dwarfs both in size and longevity.
IF either were more powerful or preferred by the high command a fleet of BoPs would've met 'the cloud' in the first movie -or- a fleet of either would've escorted Chancellor Gorkon in the undiscovered country, or he would've used either one as his flagship. Neither was the case.
Sorry for the rant but I'm a HUGE fan of the D7 and I hate to see it treated like the red-headed stepchild - too many years playing starfleet battles and starfleet command 2.
Before TNG I never knew raptors existed, always figured there were unknown classes between the raiders and the battlecruisers but never gave them much though. After they were introduced I figured they were more of a fast attack gunboat (like WW2 light cruisers) but noticed as more of them were put on screen, the more powerful they became. We've reached the point (with STO) where BoP's (who are so messed up sizewise due to faulty canon) and raptors (a recent addition to canon) are more powerful than the warship that introduced the warlike race to fans, and dwarfs both in size and longevity.
IF either were more powerful or preferred by the high command a fleet of BoPs would've met 'the cloud' in the first movie -or- a fleet of either would've escorted Chancellor Gorkon in the undiscovered country, or he would've used either one as his flagship. Neither was the case.
Sorry for the rant but I'm a HUGE fan of the D7 and I hate to see it treated like the red-headed stepchild - too many years playing starfleet battles and starfleet command 2.
Sorry, if this appears to be nitpicking but I certainly hope you're referring to Birds of Repy here, not Raptors.
In testing the Bortasqu was getting rave reviews and then Cryptic severely gimped it before it went live.
I had forgotten all the rage posts about how the Bortasqu was crippled beyond all belief but the Odyssey was barely touch and pretty much played the same has it was on tribble.
so does anyone remember what stats it had before all those nerfbat hits it recieved?
No, raptors.
BoP's have existed since TOS, tho movie canon messed that one up too.
I was flying a klingon F5 frigate in 1983 when I got my copy of SFB (was NOT a BoP on any level), could it have been a raptor ?
Sorry, but you completely lost me now.:(
You wrote you didn't know before TNG that there were Raptors.
There were no Raptors in TNG.
The only Raptor that ever appeared anywhere was in "Enterprise" in the year 2002 episode "Sleeping Dogs".
I'm also not really sure what you mean by BoPs have existed since TOS, several novels that appeared after Star Trek 3 but play during the TOS era have them, sure.
The 1986 novel "The First Adventure" should be one of the first to feature one.
But I don't quite understand in what way movie canon got that wrong since the Bird of Prey Kruge uses is a familiar design to the Enterprise's crew so it was certainly not brand new to them.
And while the F5 could be something related, the F5 has a nearly trapezoid rear hull and the nacelles under the hull.
Of course it could be some kind of "TOS Raptor", but then the people from SFB could hardly have anticipated what the people who would make "Enterprise" would design some 20 years later.
And depending on the angle, the glowing green light from the original version of "Saturday's Child" could just as well be a Raptor.
Sorry, but you completely lost me now.:(
You wrote you didn't know before TNG that there were Raptors.
There were no Raptors in TNG.
The only Raptor that ever appeared anywhere was in "Enterprise" in the year 2002 episode "Sleeping Dogs".
I'm also not really sure what you mean by BoPs have existed since TOS, several novels that appeared after Star Trek 3 but play during the TOS era have them, sure.
The 1986 novel "The First Adventure" should be one of the first to feature one.
But I don't quite understand in what way movie canon got that wrong since the Bird of Prey Kruge uses is a familiar design to the Enterprise's crew so it was certainly not brand new to them.
And while the F5 could be something related, the F5 has a nearly trapezoid rear hull and the nacelles under the hull.
Of course it could be some kind of "TOS Raptor", but then the people from SFB could hardly have anticipated what the people who would make "Enterprise" would design some 20 years later.
And depending on the angle, the glowing green light from the original version of "Saturday's Child" could just as well be a Raptor.
Basically every smaller companion to the D7 that has nacelles and a neck could be a Raptor of sorts.;)
I meant the entire trek universe changed with TNG, and raptors appeared AFTER TNG (Enterprise) tho some non-canon ships could very well be raptors without the official name given them until 'enterprise' aired.
Eaves' objective was to make the craft appear more primitive than the Klingon ships later in the franchise's chronology, with exposed piping and rugged design. Eaves stated that the design was made to look "like it is made up of different pieces that are attached to one another, as opposed to a uniform shape". Several designs of various sizes were proposed before Zimmerman settled on the Raptor-class. While the vessel is lightly based on Industrial Light & Magic's Bird of Prey, Eaves attempted to make the craft appear as a precursor to the D7-class.
It's been way too many years since I've seen my TOS tech books and blueprints, but they've been reconsidered as non-canon anyway.
At the end of the first season of Star Trek: The Next Generation, all licenses for Star Trek spin-off fiction were renegotiated and the animated series was essentially "decanonized" by Gene Roddenberry's office. Writers of the novels, comics and role-playing games were prohibited from using concepts from the animated series in their works.[6] Among the facts established within the animated series that were called into question by the "official canon" issue was its identification of Robert April as the first captain of the USS Enterprise in the episode "The Counter-Clock Incident".
Romulans had a 'bird of prey' ship in TOS (1967??) tho ST3 'officially' stole the name many years later.
Raptors were a NEW creation, only seen in the series 'Enterprise' and created to be a precursor to the D7 design, so I don't understand the prominence of the Raptor class in STO since canonically it OLDER than the D7.
And I agree with you on the BoP design being messed up by writers, directors,producers when written into the later series' storylines, only later to have more rubbish considered canon explaining there are multiple versions of the ship to cover the mistakes in filming the ships scale.
After re-reading you above post I have to ask: why build a BoP thats as large as a cruiser when you have:
A: an ancient design like a Raptor being built and upgraded
B: have HUNDREDS of older D7's available for refit (canonically newer than Raptors and mass produced for numerous wars since introduction.
C: have an newer cruiser 'in production' with the Vor'Cha.
It always struck me has odd how the Romulans and the Klingons both had Bird of Prey.
I'm pretty sure that the Romulans had them 1st and then the Klingons improved on the concept during their alliance.
If there were ever a lock box vessel that I'd actually want to acquire a Romulan Bird of Prey would be it.
On topic of the Bortasqu:
What role (if any) in each of the Elite Space STF?s do you believe that a Bortasqu could fill?
There limited mobility makes them near useless in KA, on probe defense they have to position themselves so far off the gate that there pretty much right near the time portal and if a probe makes it past the head it's all over.
There limited mobility gimps them in Cure and Infected where speed and positioning key.
They cannot defend the Kang without backup and there very slow on probe clearing.
To be fair I would never try to defend the Kang in KA with my Vo?Quv because it's a positioning nightmare (for me at least).
When running the Cure space I always go on the probe and Cube clearing detail, it's so much easier to park my Carrier just within firing range of the probes and still be able to help deal with the BOP and Neg that spawn.
It always struck me has odd how the Romulans and the Klingons both had Bird of Prey.
I'm pretty sure that the Romulans had them 1st and then the Klingons improved on the concept during their alliance.
In the drafts for The Search for Spock; the Bird of Prey now in the KDF was originally a romulan design. I believe at one draft copy, it was supposed to be stolen by the klingon crew.
In testing the Bortasqu was getting rave reviews and then Cryptic severely gimped it before it went live.
I had forgotten all the rage posts about how the Bortasqu was crippled beyond all belief but the Odyssey was barely touch and pretty much played the same has it was on tribble.
I never really payed attention back then, may I ask its stats if you recall them?
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just an fyi i have successfully defended kang with my voq'uv i just had a friend drop the right side as we start. I go left right defense till middle probes cleared and then left middle till right cube droped then destroy the left raptors while middle ones are taken by the 4 people left over. Im sure the bortasqu(sp) with a good captian and right gearing could do the same thing. As for slugginess of the voq'uv im sure my kar'fi could do the job way easier but i have done it successfully only switching when the escorts have issues with taking out the bigger spawned ships.
As for the raptor /shrug how can we claim cannon or not as that is really what the owners deside is cannon. Raptors and BoP are not my type of fighters but you give me a slow turning ship and i turn it into the cruiser/carrier of death. I enjoy taking out a side of Transformers in Kase. Defending probes. Taking out kang duty or dps duty in CSE. or saving the day in ise with my carrier even though it turns like the titanic in an ice flow.
Klingon isnt about the ship you fly but how you do it with the crappiest selection you get given. Klingons are the Gnomes of the Star trek world. They take the TRIBBLE turn it into something usefully then beat the odds with it!
so does anyone remember what stats it had before all those nerfbat hits it recieved?
From what I understand, it at least had better turning capabilities. I don't remember anything else, didn't pay much attention to it. I fly BoPs/raptors, not battlecruisers/space whales :P
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Comments
There were 2 problems w/the fleet varient's:
1. The cost
2. The poor product
Seriously who would pay 2k zen or w/e 4 ship units cost for just 1 xtra Tac console and slight shield/hp buff per toon? Or otherthan novelty pay for 16k hull raider?
With the exception of the Vet ship (not a fleet/zen ship) the destroyers while fun to play, don't fit the hit and run raider style. Also, the boff/console layouts were generally a bit lacking imo.
They've added a fleet b'rel, but that's T5 and the xtra console is in the worst slot. It should have been a 4th sci.
The Fleet Torkhat is imo the best Fleet ship option.
The Vet ship is a nice destroyer raider hybrid (imo better than what the vast majority of the fleet ship options are). But, not sure I'd count on additional lifers sales to get it.
The Fleet Somraw seems like an ok option, but it lacks the movement and 5th tac console of the Fed Escorts. Tbh, I'd rather fly the Fleet Torkaht.
The Fleet Sci ships lack the movement needed to stay w/a hit and run playstyle team and are lacking compared to the many Fed options.
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And we could put our builds up, but we've put enough work into them thatat least i have no intentions of doing so, you want to test it, fight against it. You'll find out then. Until then, you know nothing to judge how we use our ships
For me personally, after having good handling cruisers, going to one that handles like a drunk pig in treacle is not my idea of a good time.
As for "lost money on", I think Cryptic is pulling a bit of a cop-out here. I'd love to see a Bird of Prey equivalent to the Vesta though, a nice big bird, with 3 flavours, and lots of pew-pew. I'd buy that. If only there were some much requested BoP... like a K'vort or something...
Klingon iconic ship: Bird of Prey. Gobs of money lost when they build a cruiser instead.
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Just before it got released however they nerfed its turn even more, gimped its cloak and moved all shield defenses onto Sci slots which the Bortas is severely crippled on. Basically they killed it for us just prior to release.
I wouldnt have a Bortas pack now if it was given away as a bonus to buying a Hydrospray.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
Wait, what ?
BoP is iconic ?
IF the D7 wasn't such a DOG more would be flying it (the fleet k'tinga is a MAJOR move in the right direction)
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My money would be on some fleet ships. Cheap rehashes and all that, but do you guys know anybody flying a fleet raptor or BoP ? I just know two or three people getting a fleet Raptor and just one going for the fugly skeleton BoP.
Fleet Kar'fi would be in high demand imho, but...
Fleet B'rel is TRIBBLE, too. While I love the B'rel retrofit the fleet B'rel is underwhelming. I may go for it anyway, for that bit more HP, but wtf should I do with the additional engineering slot ? Maybe a universal console will find it's way int there, but that's it. :mad:
I'd agree that the D7 is also an 'iconic' ship. They've been around a lot longer, and strongly identified with long before we ever saw a BoP. But now that I've flown BoP's I have a hard time wanting to fly a battlecruiser.
I'd have to agree with the Bortasq' not being a ship I'd want to fly, let alone buy. I have one of the freebies and I've never bothered to unpack it after I'd test flown one and saw all of the stats. On the other hand, I was sorely tempted to buy an Oddy pack even though the inertia makes it a beast to pilot. But, for now, I'm sticking with my free Odyssey.
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I think you've just solved the mystery.
In testing the Bortasqu was getting rave reviews and then Cryptic severely gimped it before it went live.
I had forgotten all the rage posts about how the Bortasqu was crippled beyond all belief but the Odyssey was barely touch and pretty much played the same has it was on tribble.
Well, not to get pulled into the 'most iconic' debate again I'll concede that BoPs were seen more post film era, my guess is with empire dying BoP's were cheaper to build and crew so there likely were more on patrol while larger ships were aiding in the evacuation of the homeworld.
That does not explain why the game chose to include more powerful versions of a scout ship than the mainstay of the Klingon fleet for generations. Having started this game in BoPs and eventually test flying the free D7 I quickly moved to the more balanced (and powerful) Raptor class but wish to return to the cruiser IF cryptic could figure out that a battlecruiser is NOT a science ship nor healer. They gave us a tactical Bortas that can't turn around without the gravatic help of a nearby star, so why can't they do the same for our iconic battlecruiser (with better than cruiserlike maneuverability)???
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Yes there are other examples, just not as common is all.
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Regarding the BoP/Raptor setup: I agree, I don't really see why they put in the raptors. The Bird of Prey class is just as oriented for DPSing, albeit with more maneuverability. With the universal consoles, it's also a jack-of-all trades. . .except for the fact that it can't tank as well as an escort, let alone a science ship or cruiser. That limits what it can do, as most BoPs have to rely on their battlecloak to stay hidden and choose their battles.
All you would have to do to obsolete the raptors would be to buff the BoP hull and shield mod. That's the biggest difference that I can see. So yeah, the raptor class never made that much sense.
If the BoP could reasonably stand in as an escort and as a light tanker/shield tanker, I would have much less issue with there being no dedicated science class for the KDF ships, since the BoP does an ok job at using sci builds. The universal boffs work wonders in the right hands.
Of course, then the Feddies would howl and whine about it being 'OP!!!', and demand a counterpart or a nerf. . .despite the advantages they already have.
As long as the ship has the general Klingon 'look' (wings with engines, central portion, and then neck section jutting forward), I could care less about the aesthetic details. I care far more about the stats. The looks aren't a factor at all when I'm considering a ship's merits, beyond an initial 'not bad' when they come up with a particularly cool looking design. I personally find it confusing that someone would seriously wave away a ship's disadvantages with the logic of 'It looks COOL!!!'.
Before TNG I never knew raptors existed, always figured there were unknown classes between the raiders and the battlecruisers but never gave them much though. After they were introduced I figured they were more of a fast attack gunboat (like WW2 light cruisers) but noticed as more of them were put on screen, the more powerful they became. We've reached the point (with STO) where BoP's (who are so messed up sizewise due to faulty canon) and raptors (a recent addition to canon) are more powerful than the warship that introduced the warlike race to fans, and dwarfs both in size and longevity.
IF either were more powerful or preferred by the high command a fleet of BoPs would've met 'the cloud' in the first movie -or- a fleet of either would've escorted Chancellor Gorkon in the undiscovered country, or he would've used either one as his flagship. Neither was the case.
Sorry for the rant but I'm a HUGE fan of the D7 and I hate to see it treated like the red-headed stepchild - too many years playing starfleet battles and starfleet command 2.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Sorry, if this appears to be nitpicking but I certainly hope you're referring to Birds of Repy here, not Raptors.
No, raptors.
BoP's have existed since TOS, tho movie canon messed that one up too.
I was flying a klingon F5 frigate in 1983 when I got my copy of SFB (was NOT a BoP on any level), could it have been a raptor ?
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Sorry, but you completely lost me now.
You wrote you didn't know before TNG that there were Raptors.
There were no Raptors in TNG.
The only Raptor that ever appeared anywhere was in "Enterprise" in the year 2002 episode "Sleeping Dogs".
I'm also not really sure what you mean by BoPs have existed since TOS, several novels that appeared after Star Trek 3 but play during the TOS era have them, sure.
The 1986 novel "The First Adventure" should be one of the first to feature one.
But I don't quite understand in what way movie canon got that wrong since the Bird of Prey Kruge uses is a familiar design to the Enterprise's crew so it was certainly not brand new to them.
And while the F5 could be something related, the F5 has a nearly trapezoid rear hull and the nacelles under the hull.
Of course it could be some kind of "TOS Raptor", but then the people from SFB could hardly have anticipated what the people who would make "Enterprise" would design some 20 years later.
And depending on the angle, the glowing green light from the original version of "Saturday's Child" could just as well be a Raptor.
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4953/fridayschildscoutraptor.jpg
Basically every smaller companion to the D7 that has nacelles and a neck could be a Raptor of sorts.;)
I meant the entire trek universe changed with TNG, and raptors appeared AFTER TNG (Enterprise) tho some non-canon ships could very well be raptors without the official name given them until 'enterprise' aired. It's been way too many years since I've seen my TOS tech books and blueprints, but they've been reconsidered as non-canon anyway.
Romulans had a 'bird of prey' ship in TOS (1967??) tho ST3 'officially' stole the name many years later.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
And I agree with you on the BoP design being messed up by writers, directors,producers when written into the later series' storylines, only later to have more rubbish considered canon explaining there are multiple versions of the ship to cover the mistakes in filming the ships scale.
After re-reading you above post I have to ask: why build a BoP thats as large as a cruiser when you have:
A: an ancient design like a Raptor being built and upgraded
B: have HUNDREDS of older D7's available for refit (canonically newer than Raptors and mass produced for numerous wars since introduction.
C: have an newer cruiser 'in production' with the Vor'Cha.
It just doesn't make sense.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I'm pretty sure that the Romulans had them 1st and then the Klingons improved on the concept during their alliance.
If there were ever a lock box vessel that I'd actually want to acquire a Romulan Bird of Prey would be it.
On topic of the Bortasqu:
What role (if any) in each of the Elite Space STF?s do you believe that a Bortasqu could fill?
There limited mobility makes them near useless in KA, on probe defense they have to position themselves so far off the gate that there pretty much right near the time portal and if a probe makes it past the head it's all over.
There limited mobility gimps them in Cure and Infected where speed and positioning key.
They cannot defend the Kang without backup and there very slow on probe clearing.
To be fair I would never try to defend the Kang in KA with my Vo?Quv because it's a positioning nightmare (for me at least).
When running the Cure space I always go on the probe and Cube clearing detail, it's so much easier to park my Carrier just within firing range of the probes and still be able to help deal with the BOP and Neg that spawn.
Oh the power of the advanced Bird of Prey!
I never really payed attention back then, may I ask its stats if you recall them?
As for the raptor /shrug how can we claim cannon or not as that is really what the owners deside is cannon. Raptors and BoP are not my type of fighters but you give me a slow turning ship and i turn it into the cruiser/carrier of death. I enjoy taking out a side of Transformers in Kase. Defending probes. Taking out kang duty or dps duty in CSE. or saving the day in ise with my carrier even though it turns like the titanic in an ice flow.
Klingon isnt about the ship you fly but how you do it with the crappiest selection you get given. Klingons are the Gnomes of the Star trek world. They take the TRIBBLE turn it into something usefully then beat the odds with it!
From what I understand, it at least had better turning capabilities. I don't remember anything else, didn't pay much attention to it. I fly BoPs/raptors, not battlecruisers/space whales :P