exceptional escort captains know how to make their builds to stand alone. It's not that they are not accustomed to team play which most are, it's because they want to be around no matter what and to be around no matter what you simply need to be able to live.
I have 0 threat control i found it to be the stupidest skill on earth for a tac commander, why exactly would a take commander want to even cause more people to look at them? It's beyond me... even the idea that a escort captain would want more damage is by far just the most ridiculous thing of all time.
This question alone is kinda weird i mean we play other games correct? And in those games the person who heals the most or shreds the most is considered the biggest threat to the npc even to players. So if an eng commander is producing 500 dps while a tac is producing 1.4k who in their right mind would say the eng was more of a threat? I know I wouldn't waste my time killing a thicker enemy that hits me for 600 when a weaker enemy that hits me for 1.4k is right there. I'm not saying that it is impossible, I'm saying it's improbable, and the person who has TC as an escort capt is not talented enough and will prolly die in seconds. I only die if my computer freezes up and it does alot now that it over heats so i'm becoming more and more careful with my fights.
Then their is the fact that a good tac captain can out tank a cruiser on it's worst day, if you fly the jem'hadar or patrol or even the new breen BShip it has the immortal influence set up where you have enough heals, enough resist and enough intelligence to live long and prosper, while the enemy dies fast and suffers.
It's just a way of life. Their are simply too many builds and abilities for a eng captain to cross the threshold of elite and to keep up all the other captains need to develop and hone their skills as well. It's simple math. The biggest threat will always be the strongest, rather it's healing or crushing.
What is so wrong with an Escort tanking? Any Tac Escort with a halfway decent setup and who is paying attention should be able to tank any enemy vessel in an STF, even on Elite, for at least for some time and be able to escape if it should ever get close. On normal mode it's even no problem to tank in a Tier-3 escort without any problems including Donatra, Gates and Tac-Cubes.
As far as tanks/cruisers in PUG STFs go, I'm just happy when they manage to bind and offtank opponents until we can get to them. Prime examples in CSE would be the two spheres that escort the first Tac-Cube or those that spawn after the second generator has been destroyed.
Oh there is most certainly a great number of people that are better than me. Nevertheless i'm quit high up there on the pyramid of skill, and the perspective i have from up there allows me to understand and see things that are just a mystery to you. Should you ever reach that point in the distant future, i hope STO is still running...but i doubt it, no game is that long living.
sometimes i just can't help it. i tend to use torp spread and CSV, the result is aggro from 5+ targets without threatcontrol skilled in any shape or form.
i plan to get the thread reduction console as soon as i can afford it.
There are Science Consoles you can buy from the Embassy Shuttlebay once your Embassy fully hits Tier 1 that either reduce threat, increase threat, or enhance plasma weapons, as well as provide Hull and Shield healing procs, AS WELL as providing basic Science Console functions (Shield Emitters, Graviton Generators, etc)
That said, a good way to get and keep aggro in a Cruiser is to fly a Tactical Leaning Cruiser...by that I mean, Excelsior, Regent, Ody with Tac in LTC slot so you can turn out more damage skills like FAW 2/3, Overload 2/3, Torp Spread 2/3 while still having another viable Tactical skill.
I, for example, in my Fleet Excelsior, run TT1, FAW2, and Overload 3. Overload 3 + Buffs + DBB can draw some serious aggro from a single target, especially on a nice big crit.
Oh, and you can also purchase and use the Fleet Boosts that give +whatever to Tactical Skills in space, which will up your damage and your Threat Control. I usually buy a Tac and Engi version for my Engi Cruiser for all sorts of awesomeness.
If you see an escort holding aggro because they're doing a lot of DPS, don't just stand there wondering how *you* can get the aggro, put Extends 3 on them so that when you can't get the aggro off them, they actually *can* tank it. Extends 3 = best tanking skill in the game.
If you see an escort holding aggro because they're doing a lot of DPS, don't just stand there wondering how *you* can get the aggro, put Extends 3 on them so that when you can't get the aggro off them, they actually *can* tank it. Extends 3 = best tanking skill in the game.
true that...TSS, HE, ET are already much apreciated, whe i'm not tanking in my escort i usually give my HE and TSS to the person tanking.
If you see an escort holding aggro because they're doing a lot of DPS, don't just stand there wondering how *you* can get the aggro, put Extends 3 on them so that when you can't get the aggro off them, they actually *can* tank it. Extends 3 = best tanking skill in the game.
true that...TSS, HE, ET are already much apreciated, when i'm not tanking in my escort i usually give my HE and TSS to the person tanking.
Not a huge fan of ES3, much rather use ET3, since escorts tend to be able to manage their own shields pretty well, and if not, TSS2 is a much better way, esp since you can fire and forget.
The main problem I have with keeping escorts alive is that they are always zipping around and not staying within 10k of the healing cruiser. That being said, I prefer fire and forget heals, ones you can launch and they can move away. That being said, my preferred heal setup in the event I can't draw aggro off an escort is HE1, TSS1 and 2, Aux2SIF3, and ET3. Great combination of hull and shield heals. And if all else fails you can always shoot them your EPS transfer skill to boost their shield power by 30 (if you are an engi you can do that, if you're a tac in a heal-cruiser... well I just... wow...).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I've said it many times, a support cruiser makes a boatload more sense to me than a tank cruiser. That is how they are even used in pvp.
Extend Shields, Engineering Team, along with HE and TSS make even the worst built escort a better tank than a cruiser can be.
Combine that with some eject warp plasma for zone denial/cc, perhaps an attack pattern beta with disruptors to boost everyone's DPS or another non selfish proc, even an aceton beam helps reduce an NPCs damage output a fair amount. Those are the cruisers I love to see in my PuGs.
Threat Control should have NEVER been added to the game, creates a false misconception if you ask me.
Actually now that I really think on it that is pretty much the root of the problem to me with cruisers more so than DPS/tank/anything. In the PvE setup both a science vessel and the escort have some considerable force multipling boff abilities that help your team considerable, those being attack pattern beta/delta for tac and energy drain and gravity well to a lesser extent for sci. Attack pattern beta will be the number one DPS contributor for a boff ability and well a completely drained target is self explanatory. Engineer boff abilities do have some things going for the team like healing and eject warp plasma but they are just not on the same level at all as far as force multipliers go.
The majority of Engineering powers, or at least the more powerful ones are selfish powers. They cannot be shared, and they cannot be given. Take EPtX, the mainstay of any good engineering captain cannot be given to another player. RSP, the oh @#$% button for engineers, also cannot be shared. And MW, the GOD SAVE ME!!! button, is also engineering only. With that in mind, that's why engineers are tanks, and science tends to be the healer. This transition from tank to support is simply because the intended role of the cruiser is not necessary. Pure tanks aren't needed, and in many cases are unwanted. As a result, ships like the Galaxy-R, which pretty much is the perfect, or at least an efficient tank, is not really a viable ship, ESPECIALLY since this game is DPS based, and the main DD ships can tank sufficiently to survive (unless like I stated in an earlier post, EVERYTHING is on cd). As a direct result the cruiser had to turn to something it could do, which is support/healer. Cruisers are built perfectly to tank. But why bother to tank when killing it faster is a more effective way of winning? Especially with timers on everything?
So... if there was a cruiser, it had to turn to keeping the main DD alive. Something it could do (not as well as a sci, but hey, it's better than sitting looking pretty).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I know it is off-topic but this does bring up an interesting topic.
When you remove hard coded relied upon roles, that being tank/healer/dd or the holy trinity yet still want to keep variety in 'classes' so to speak it does tend not to be very well implemented and gets messy. Some would approach the the subject with a different but equal approach where everyone can tank/dd just as well as the other but with a different method but that tends to also fail.
So what is the other approach or solution? I really think this is a place where the MMO genre could take a page from the new MOBA genre. In MOBAs their is no holy trinity so to speak, but you still have roles. You have carriers who are weak early game but excel late game and they even have a built in difference of AP or AD where the AP tends to be more 'burst' and the AD tends to be more 'sustain'. You also have supports who while do at times have the ability to heal damage more often they have the capability to shield and buff allies while bringing some crowd control abilities to the table. Then their are the bruisers or tanky DPS who shine mid game and deal solid damage while being able to take a beating typically with some built in healing capability. Finally their are tanks that tend to be broken into initiators who start a fight and peelers who protect the squishies. They tend to have crowd control abilities and debuffs as well. And many characters can fill more than one role and their is a good bit of overlap and this is just a very brief basic overview.
Now while I don't think this would translate directly to STO perhaps it should to a point depending upon how the ships were paired with the captain and the setup used.
Escorts would primarily be and are similar to the AP carriers and tanky DPS. They bring the pain in burst and depending on setup can take it as well. Sadly with current design they both have the highest burst AND sustained damage output with few exceptions.
Cruisers would be a mix between the initiator and the AD carry. They bring the solid steady damage matching an escort depending on build and would excel at initiating the fight and have the ability to cc and debuff while doing it. Unfortunately in the current game they tend to just be hybrids that can do any role decently but not as well as another type and do not tend to bring anything extra to the table at the same time.
Sci Vessels would fall mostly into the support role at first glance but would also be in both the AP carry department and the peeler style tank mainly because some AP carriers excel in AOE damage. They mostly work well within the current game in that role but do lack the raw burst damage Post Nerf thanks to the Tac/Sci craziness.
And in some ways STO does promote this type of setup but then it just falls flat on its face due to poor implementation of several things. I blame this on an over focus on simulation aspects of the popular GSN model that creates issues along with underlying math that has gotten out of whack in the game. I might ramble more about that later.
So what is the other approach or solution? I really think this is a place where the MMO genre could take a page from the new MOBA genre. In MOBAs their is no holy trinity so to speak, but you still have roles. You have carriers who are weak early game but excel late game and they even have a built in difference of AP or AD where the AP tends to be more 'burst' and the AD tends to be more 'sustain'. You also have supports who while do at times have the ability to heal damage more often they have the capability to shield and buff allies while bringing some crowd control abilities to the table. Then their are the bruisers or tanky DPS who shine mid game and deal solid damage while being able to take a beating typically with some built in healing capability. Finally their are tanks that tend to be broken into initiators who start a fight and peelers who protect the squishies. They tend to have crowd control abilities and debuffs as well. And many characters can fill more than one role and their is a good bit of overlap and this is just a very brief basic overview.
I wanted to avoid saying too much because it is just more entertaining "educating" players in pvp, but all of the roles you mention here (and more) exist in STO, just few players understand how to build or use them. I only discovered them by accident after getting bored of the existing escorts long ago. A lot of ships just seemed like wastes of space, but I made a point to just give them a legitimate chance/prove they are wastes of space. I was wrong. STO is not DPS based. The combat mechanics are complicated for a reason. There is sustained DPS and there is burst DPS. The problem is a lot of players are prone to target fixation. In an escort, this means that they are ignoring the full scope of what is going on. ESCORTS DO NOT have the highest sustained DPS. They can only maintain their DPS in isolated circumstances. Understanding and adapting your strategy to these circumstances is key.
Lastly, do not rely on the combat log exclusively. It doesn't lie, but it is not showing you everything and if you die, it isn't an isolated circumstance, it's because you made/are making a mistake.
I wanted to avoid saying too much because it is just more entertaining "educating" players in pvp, but all of the roles you mention here (and more) exist in STO, just few players understand how to build or use them. I only discovered them by accident after getting bored of the existing escorts long ago. A lot of ships just seemed like wastes of space, but I made a point to just give them a legitimate chance/prove they are wastes of space. I was wrong. STO is not DPS based. The combat mechanics are complicated for a reason. There is sustained DPS and there is burst DPS. The problem is a lot of players are prone to target fixation. In an escort, this means that they are ignoring the full scope of what is going on. ESCORTS DO NOT have the highest sustained DPS. They can only maintain their DPS in isolated circumstances. Understanding and adapting your strategy to these circumstances is key.
Lastly, do not rely on the combat log exclusively. It doesn't lie, but it is not showing you everything and if you die, it isn't an isolated circumstance, it's because you made/are making a mistake.
You are half right and half wrong. You are correct with your statement that STO is not completely DPS based. But you are incorrect because most end game PvE content is. PvP is a whole different beast, but this thread is about ESTFs, where escorts can easily sustain their burst. I would know, since I do it all the time, constantly cycling TT, CRF, APB and EPtW. That gives me constant high damage, with 66% uptime on my tactical abilities and 100% uptime on my EPtW (love my damage control engis).
However I say MOST because in no win scenario, you need heals. That you can share. Which Escorts cannot really tote around, due to their low rank Engi and sci BOff slots. But since this is discussing ESTFs, which I am sorry to say ARE DPS based (except HOE, which most pilots just globally complain about, myself not included, I rather enjoy that challenge level) which again, makes your point half correct and half wrong.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Specifically, the times in STFs in which you are attacking fixed structures, DPS is a crucial factor. You are rolling with APB though, a debuff lending to the idea that it's not all DPS. 66% up-time is a burst. EPtW is most effective in it's first five seconds and all of these abilities are most effective when used simultaneously. Also, a lot of things shoot back and your weapon arcs are dead ahead. The vast majority of escort captains either sit at less than 3k and pretend to be impenetrable weapons platforms and go squish or sit at more than 8k, in which case you are better off with a different ship in terms of DPS.
Specifically, the times in STFs in which you are attacking fixed structures, DPS is a crucial factor. You are rolling with APB though, a debuff lending to the idea that it's not all DPS. 66% up-time is a burst. EPtW is most effective in it's first five seconds and all of these abilities are most effective when used simultaneously. Also, a lot of things shoot back and your weapon arcs are dead ahead. The vast majority of escort captains either sit at less than 3k and pretend to be impenetrable weapons platforms and go squish or sit at more than 8k, in which case you are better off with a different ship in terms of DPS.
*takes a deep breath*
*remains calm*
For starters... APB is a DEFENSE and RESISTANCE debuff, which ADDS to DPS. Thus nullifying your first point.
Secondly with how cannon firing patterns go, more often than not, there is spillover from my CRF into the void zone (where I don't have CRF actually active), but due to how the weapon cycles, as soon as it starts firing, all modifiers will remain throughout it's entire firing cycle. Which means the uptime is actually closer to 80-90% with how DHC cycles go. Which isn't burst. Burst implies huge damage over a small period of time, with long periods of time between cycles. AKA torpedoes. TS3 and THY3 are examples of bursts. Good captains who know their abilities and timing inside and out can SUSTAIN that "burst" damage. Put into perspective, during the 15 second cycle, I usually get 4 cannon salvos off. 3 of those are always modified with APB and CRF. That 4th one will also be modified by those two abilities 50% of the time. And any remaining down time on the abilities is usually when my cannons are recharging between cycles. Nullifying your second point.
Now for your third comment, you are correct, a lot of escort pilots foolishly sit still and pretend to be cruisers. And get popped. All I have to say to that is EPtS1/2, TSS1/2, HE1/2, EM3, and FPE. My fleet patrol can tank a tac cube from point blank with almost no effort. While still maintaining that huge sustained DPS. That's on my fed. On my KDF I use a Fleet Tor'kaht. And I don't need to tell you that things ability to tank while still dealing tremendous sustained DPS. And I use both ships within 5k of my target. Nullifying your third point.
All of your points are situational, and I have situations that negate them. I will not say my argument is impervious, far from it. But I will say that you aren't really giving enough credit to captains that learned how to maximize damage under all situations. Your comment about how the arc of weapons is mostly forward is true, but the ships that use them have no trouble keeping a target in that arc. Escorts have the highest turn rates out of almost every ship in the game (still beat out by small craft), and battlecruisers can turn fast enough to do the same.
I give you credit for thinking it out. I however don't think you thought through it enough.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I wanted to avoid saying too much because it is just more entertaining "educating" players in pvp, but all of the roles you mention here (and more) exist in STO, just few players understand how to build or use them. I only discovered them by accident after getting bored of the existing escorts long ago. A lot of ships just seemed like wastes of space, but I made a point to just give them a legitimate chance/prove they are wastes of space. I was wrong. STO is not DPS based. The combat mechanics are complicated for a reason. There is sustained DPS and there is burst DPS. The problem is a lot of players are prone to target fixation. In an escort, this means that they are ignoring the full scope of what is going on. ESCORTS DO NOT have the highest sustained DPS. They can only maintain their DPS in isolated circumstances. Understanding and adapting your strategy to these circumstances is key.
Lastly, do not rely on the combat log exclusively. It doesn't lie, but it is not showing you everything and if you die, it isn't an isolated circumstance, it's because you made/are making a mistake.
I had to double check but yes this is infact the PvE subforum hence we are disguising the ships in relation to PvE, not PvP.
Second listen to what hereticknight is saying, he is correct. I tank tac cubes POINT BLANK in escorts all the time. I'm talking Tac/Defiant, Eng/FPE/Steamy, Sci/Varies so not in isolated situations but all the time even now that I can't hide from their torpedoes. And if I do explode before the cube it simply means one of two things.
1) I messed up
2) Team lacks dps AND ability to crossheal
Their is one goal, and one goal only in PvE. Dealing as much damage as humanly possible in the quickest manner. Attack Pattern Beta helps that happen, gravity well helps that happen, energy drains help that happen. And while yes someone keeping everyone alive either directly by tanking or indirectly by healing would help that happen it is not required because of the design of the game grants every single ship a large amount of built in self and targeted healing capability. What else would I put in my eng slots but Epower to Shields? Well I do have two copies of DEM on my steamrunner I guess but I also still have the two copies of Epower so it is all good. It is so easy to tank stuff that on my blasphemous beam array FPE I run two copies of Epower to weapons and don't even bother to use the Epower to shields unless I'm facing Donotra or a cube + gate.
It sounds like you are rolling multiple copies of these abilities, possibly with a macro to maintain continuous up time. In which case, Bravo! That is unfortunately not what I'm seeing most people do in these missions.
The point about the weapon arcs and the attempted weapons platforms is: use strafing runs if you can't stay alive. This is compared to other vessels that can remain in the fray. It might not be true for everyone, but it has increasingly been the focus in changes to PvE. Escorts lend themselves well to strafing runs and will take on a bursty characteristic. Tanky-er vessels with broader arcs can generally sit there without having to disengage. The newer PvE missions are also increasingly dependent on other roles as well. Even within the STFs, crowd control, and debuffs are important for some objectives for your average PUG.
You are missing the point about the debuff. There is your raw damage and then additional factors that will effect it, which other types of vessels can be involved in. Other vessels can also use more exotic attacks that can be brutal when used right.
Bareel - to the point of the original post, if you are going squish because you can't master the basic gameplay style of your ship, should other classes really have to compromise their builds in homage to the apparent godly damage of the escorts? What if the whole team used their vessels in ways that each aid damage and even with some additional adaptability?
PvP and PvE may be different, but most of the same gameplay mechanics and principles remain the same, and when properly applied, do not result in lost objectives and involve no dieing.
It sounds like you are rolling multiple copies of these abilities, possibly with a macro to maintain continuous up time. In which case, Bravo! That is unfortunately not what I'm seeing most people do in these missions.
The point about the weapon arcs and the attempted weapons platforms is: use strafing runs if you can't stay alive. This is compared to other vessels that can remain in the fray. It might not be true for everyone, but it has increasingly been the focus in changes to PvE. Escorts lend themselves well to strafing runs and will take on a bursty characteristic. Tanky-er vessels with broader arcs can generally sit there without having to disengage. The newer PvE missions are also increasingly dependent on other roles as well. Even within the STFs, crowd control, and debuffs are important for some objectives for your average PUG.
You are missing the point about the debuff. There is your raw damage and then additional factors that will effect it, which other types of vessels can be involved in. Other vessels can also use more exotic attacks that can be brutal when used right.
Bareel - to the point of the original post, if you are going squish because you can't master the basic gameplay style of your ship, should other classes really have to compromise their builds in homage to the apparent godly damage of the escorts? What if the whole team used their vessels in ways that each aid damage and even with some additional adaptability?
PvP and PvE may be different, but most of the same gameplay mechanics and principles remain the same, and when properly applied, do not result in lost objectives and involve no dieing.
Where on earth did I say that I'm getting squished all the time or that expect others to compromise their builds in homage? I have agreed that escorts occasionally explode with me at the driver seat and I have suggested what I feel is a better build approach but never in the way you imply. Do you even read my post before replying and insulting both my skill as a player and maturity in a group setting? Try reading the post this time mate.
- Escorts do NOT need anyone to tank or heal with rare exceptions
- In those exceptions a debuff heavy/energy draining Sci/Carrier are optimal
- Strafing beyond the yo-yo maneuver is NOT required of Escorts
- Optimal play in PvP and PvE are completely and total different to the point of comparing a raid group in vanilla wow to one in classic EQ. Key word 'optimal'
- Optimal PvE group consists of 4 heavy hitters (escort/raptor/bop/dreads/BCs) and a single debuffer/cc with skill (Carrier preferred) in the vast majority of content.
- Aside from hardcore draining the proper escort can bring all the force multipliers/roles to the table AND more damage (Advanced for Gravity Well as an example) including the best group ability in the game Attack Pattern Beta 3.
- Cruisers, and to a lesser extent Science Vessels, need to have a role they excel at in this content that they do not currently have.
- Escorts do NOT need anyone to tank or heal with rare exceptions
And I'm still waiting to see your cruiser build that aids the team in damage and has some additional adaptability over the standard escort unless by adaptability you mean it can tank/heal a bit better while dealing a bit less damage.
Now for your third comment, you are correct, a lot of escort pilots foolishly sit still and pretend to be cruisers. And get popped. All I have to say to that is EPtS1/2, TSS1/2, HE1/2, EM3, and FPE. My fleet patrol can tank a tac cube from point blank with almost no effort. While still maintaining that huge sustained DPS. That's on my fed. On my KDF I use a Fleet Tor'kaht. And I don't need to tell you that things ability to tank while still dealing tremendous sustained DPS. And I use both ships within 5k of my target. Nullifying your third point.
If you can do that then why should I even entertain the thought of flying my Excelsior?
Once again the escort does everything the cruiser does only better...
If you can do that then why should I even entertain the thought of flying my Excelsior?
Once again the escort does everything the cruiser does only better...
Because you enjoy flying it and are still contributing enough to the group to get the optional damage wise anyway if your built properly.
Optimal is not the only way, not even the best way. Good enough and fun is best and if anyone complains tell them they need to carry harder. I mean the Estfs can be completed by ships all using white gear with optional in a hodge podge group as long as they are built correctly.
It is true that all 3 of the old space elite stfs be completed in 5 minutes or less by a well-coordinated team flying optimal ships but their is nothing wrong with taking 14 minutes if it means you fly what you love. I'm sure you out damage half the escorts in the queues anyway so don't worry about it.
But at the same time that is why I really wish they would give cruisers a buff, a nudge. Nothing major just something.
Probably ought not to stick my oar in but having read this thread, here goes. Whenever I have tried to optimize my ships/toons for a specific role or style as suggested in these forums, it has not been as successful as I wanted. The roles as defined by whomever makes up these things are too confining for my taste. It also hasn't been as much fun for me to play STO whenever I do this. And we still play this game for fun and entertainment, correct? Or did I not get the memo?
The following are some things I have learned while playing. In PvE, I am fighting the AI. The AI is stupid. If the AI were not stupid there would be no need to give it advantages like InvisiTorps and the like. The AI does not use the abilities of whatever ship it is flying effectively ever. Further the AI has to cheat just to stay even with the newest player let alone someone who's been playing a long time. In PvP, I am fighting the Enemy Captain, not the Enemy ship. Someone who plays poorly or incorrectly will lose. Regardless of what GodShip with GodWeapons and GodAbilities her/she has.
We all encourage people to think outside the box and pat ourselves on the back long and hard whenever we are able to do so. We claim to respect people who do it their way according to their rules and damn the torpedoes. James T. Kirk is the best example of this I know. Yet whenever another person tries to implement this outside the box thinking ingame, somebody yells at them. Because 'Everybody Knows!' blah blah blah. The best piece of advice about playing STO(my 1st MMO) I ever got was this. A fleetmate told me to listen to everyone but make up my own mind about how I wanted to play. Because as long as I was having fun and other people wanted me on their team or in their fleet, I was probably doing it right. Or as close to right as I could get at the time. Been playing this way for about a year now and so far it has been one helluva ride.
I can tank in an escort. Do so all the time. I rather like the comments when my glass cannon soaks up everything an enemy can throw at it and is still standing to smack said enemy a second time. Does my team no good whatsoever if I deliver a crippling blow to Donatra and then go visit Respawnville immediately afterwards. If she aggros on me then, she'll follow me and ignore everyone else. I like being able to two shot an Oddy in PvP. Then, the rest of the Enemy Captains fire on me en masse and sit there in shock because my ship doesn't die. I dunno about you, OP, but any time I can give my team a few free shots at the Enemy, in either PvE or PvP, I'm gonna do it. Does this support the team? I think so. Is it 'tanking in an escort' the way you mean it? I'm not sure.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Because you enjoy flying it and are still contributing enough to the group to get the optional damage wise anyway if your built properly.
Currently I'm flying one of these 'optimised' builds but it's no fun sitting for 2-3 minutes killing something an escort can spend under 30 seconds shredding...
Optimal is not the only way, not even the best way. Good enough and fun is best and if anyone complains tell them they need to carry harder. I mean the Estfs can be completed by ships all using white gear with optional in a hodge podge group as long as they are built correctly.
Before season 6 I ran a jack of all trades Excelsior, back then this reigned true, I could rip CSE BoPs to shreds, admittedly not as fast as the escorts but it was fast enough that I felt I was making a difference, then with season 6 my build fell flat on it's face and was useless at everything it was formally good at.
It is true that all 3 of the old space elite stfs be completed in 5 minutes or less by a well-coordinated team flying optimal ships but their is nothing wrong with taking 14 minutes if it means you fly what you love. I'm sure you out damage half the escorts in the queues anyway so don't worry about it.
I wouldn't know about out damaging half the PuG escorts as I don't run them anymore
But at the same time that is why I really wish they would give cruisers a buff, a nudge. Nothing major just something.
If you can do that then why should I even entertain the thought of flying my Excelsior?
Once again the escort does everything the cruiser does only better...
escorts can't tank as good as cruisers...they can evade better (15% more def) but while evading, escorts deal less than half the dmg they could.
Escorts have very poor support capabilitys.
i can sit face to face with an elite tac tube (NOT moving, even if it is not a smart thing to do) and still out tank the incoming dmg. No escort can do that.
If i get aggro with my escorts, i usually hit brace for impact and EPtS and start to move out of its range. Sometimes i still get blasted 12km away by some invis torp.
2 TT on rotation and you will practically never run out of shieldpoints. thats in my opinion the only advantage an escort has for tanking, but cruiser (not all) can copy that if they have 2 ensign tac slots.
Anyway, i personally think all team powers should have the shield distribution build in, or atleast ET3 and ST3 should have it, to make the second TT less important.
*even one is sufficent if you stack the appropriate conn officer.
what cruisers definately need is a simple turnrate buff across the board. 6 to 8, 7 to 9, but none should have more than 10.
and 360 degree beams
and sci ships an additional rear weapon slot
and mine abilitys should start at ensign.
thats about everything, thank you
Interesting discussion here, though I did chuckle a bit at the notion of an escort with 2x Tac Team never running out of shields; happens to me all the time during Hive Onslaught runs if I don't get healing, and don't get me started on No-Win Scenario runs.
One concept that would be useful to introduce here is that of "Effective Hit Points", which any EVE player will be familiar with, but isn't talked about much in STO since resists are generally transitory and buff-based. Let's saw I've got an escort with MACO shields, and two copies of Emergency to Shields 1; that'll give me about 35% resistance to all shield damage (10% MACO shield ability, 5% resilient shields, 20% EPtS 1), meaning that if I have 1000 damage coming in, and 1000 shield HP, I only lose 650 shield HP, which would be equivalent to having had 1350 'effective HP' before getting attacked. Now let's suppose that I also have Extends 3 on me, which provides about a 40% resist; I now take 75% less damage, which is a quadrupling of my effective HP, which means it'll take a whole lot longer to kill me.
There is another important reason why resistances from Extends, EPtS, TSS, etc. are vital: healing. Let's say that a theoretical sci ship is capable of providing an average of 500 healing per second. If the above escort has only it's own shield resist abilities going, it's taking 650 damage per second, beyond the shield-healing abilities of the science ship, and will eventually die. However, if the resists are at 75%, it takes a mere 250 damage per second, and that same science ship, instead of being unable to keep a single escort afloat, can now comfortably keep two such ships alive indefinitely.
Disclaimer: The above numbers are for illustrative purposes, since there exist diminishing returns with regard to shield resists; nevertheless, the concept is still valid. I simply chose nice numbers to work with in order to make my point.
Shield resists function as a powerful force-multiplier not only for your own effective hit points, and thus survival time in the absence of healing, but also swings the healing vs. DPS race in the favour of your team. I pvp a lot, and as any serious pvp'er can attest, the healing demands placed upon a PvP team facing good opponents are far more strenuous than those encountered in typical PvE play; we've gotten into the gritty details of how exactly to optimize healing in a team environment. With new content like Hive Onslaught possibly needing solid healing, look to what has been demonstrated to work in PvP for healing, and that is cruisers to provide hull healing & strong shield resists, while the science ships keep your shields full with science team 3 every 15 seconds and TSS to provide that extra bit of resist and HP.
Below are some example builds that I've found to be successful, and reflect this sort of philosophy; the cruisers aren't designed to do the best DPS, the sci ships aren't designed to control everything in sight, but each ship is designed to fulfill it's role in a balanced team. You might notice the lack of tac teams on the cruiser: a good escort pilot sends that to other ships that really need it, just like the cruiser sends an extends to the escort that gets focused. An integrated team build, with a pre-made team behind it, will cruise through the STFs with little difficulty.
i meant a cruiser with 2 tac teams + enough shield heals. If you have the doffs that reduce CD for EPtX the rotation of your shieldheals + tac teams should have your facing shield allways above 50% at any time. That is for PVE ofcourse, PVP is a different story, because there you get the crosshealing, which is a rarety in stfs.
your builds seem very much focused on PVP. While i do support the notion that PVP builds work well for any PVE content, you can specialize your build towards PVE...stfs especially.
So in that retrospective the cruiser build is way too tanky or supportive in my opinion...with that you can probably park between gate and tac cube and not even feel them both pounding on you.
basically thats a nice PVP cruiser build, that in my opinion will never draw aggro away from an above average escort.
for the sci build you postet the same, viral matrix, cool for PVP, practically useless in PVE...TBR, grav well is the choice for PVE.
Role in balanced team is one thing, but certain abilitys are just a waste in PVE. No need for ES3 if your cruiser has aggro 90% of the time. And torpedo spreads are very nice to draw aggro and keep it.
The STF teams I play on cross-heal, though I do only pre-made ones with my fleet as a rule.
As to the sci build; that's one I had lying around, and the guy requested a build specifically for Hive Onslaught, where VM to shut down torp spread and FBP can be useful. I agree that GW 3 would be more useful for the other missions; happily boffs are easy to swap.
The cruiser needs all of those heals, because even with threat control, keeping aggro with high DPS escorts on the field is not a sure thing; if you're dealing with run-of-the-mill pug quality escort pilots, you can hold aggro, the good escorts get it no matter why you do, so I find it better to focus on healing them than keeping the aggro myself. It's actually not very tanky, with EPtS 1 & 2; primarily supportive.
The STF teams I play on cross-heal, though I do only pre-made ones with my fleet as a rule.
As to the sci build; that's one I had lying around, and the guy requested a build specifically for Hive Onslaught, where VM to shut down torp spread and FBP can be useful. I agree that GW 3 would be more useful for the other missions; happily boffs are easy to swap.
The cruiser needs all of those heals, because even with threat control, keeping aggro with high DPS escorts on the field is not a sure thing; if you're dealing with run-of-the-mill pug quality escort pilots, you can hold aggro, the good escorts get it no matter why you do, so I find it better to focus on healing them than keeping the aggro myself. It's actually not very tanky, with EPtS 1 & 2; primarily supportive.
yeah in that case you can just take the PVP build for stfs and support the escorts with heals. i understand your point.
Thank you, naldoran and baudl. The links and your posts have given me some ideas about how to tweak my own builds and Boffs. I was surprised to discover my Tac Boffs have skill sets similar to the ones naldoran linked to. So I am headed in the right direction after all, lol. Nice to have some external validation now and then.
If you can do that then why should I even entertain the thought of flying my Excelsior?
Once again the escort does everything the cruiser does only better...
I wouldn't discount that cruiser just yet if I were you. You got the ship to begin with for the same reasons I purchased the ones I have. Because it looked fun and you wanted it. While flying it, you're enjoying yourself or at least you seem to be. I view all of my ships as WIPs. They're never so good I cannot adjust them somewhere and there will always be things I'd like them to do better. Most times when my ship doesn't perform as expected it is because of me, not the crew or the hardware. Most of the time when my team does not do as well as we expect, it is because of a lack of effective communication amongst ourselves. Again, this is not a crew or hardware issue, it is a Captain issue.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Comments
I have 0 threat control i found it to be the stupidest skill on earth for a tac commander, why exactly would a take commander want to even cause more people to look at them? It's beyond me... even the idea that a escort captain would want more damage is by far just the most ridiculous thing of all time.
This question alone is kinda weird i mean we play other games correct? And in those games the person who heals the most or shreds the most is considered the biggest threat to the npc even to players. So if an eng commander is producing 500 dps while a tac is producing 1.4k who in their right mind would say the eng was more of a threat? I know I wouldn't waste my time killing a thicker enemy that hits me for 600 when a weaker enemy that hits me for 1.4k is right there. I'm not saying that it is impossible, I'm saying it's improbable, and the person who has TC as an escort capt is not talented enough and will prolly die in seconds. I only die if my computer freezes up and it does alot now that it over heats so i'm becoming more and more careful with my fights.
Then their is the fact that a good tac captain can out tank a cruiser on it's worst day, if you fly the jem'hadar or patrol or even the new breen BShip it has the immortal influence set up where you have enough heals, enough resist and enough intelligence to live long and prosper, while the enemy dies fast and suffers.
It's just a way of life. Their are simply too many builds and abilities for a eng captain to cross the threshold of elite and to keep up all the other captains need to develop and hone their skills as well. It's simple math. The biggest threat will always be the strongest, rather it's healing or crushing.
you know forget that i mentioned it, it is beyond your understanding how it is done...and how easy it actually is.
Remember there is always someone better than you
As far as tanks/cruisers in PUG STFs go, I'm just happy when they manage to bind and offtank opponents until we can get to them. Prime examples in CSE would be the two spheres that escort the first Tac-Cube or those that spawn after the second generator has been destroyed.
Oh there is most certainly a great number of people that are better than me. Nevertheless i'm quit high up there on the pyramid of skill, and the perspective i have from up there allows me to understand and see things that are just a mystery to you. Should you ever reach that point in the distant future, i hope STO is still running...but i doubt it, no game is that long living.
What is the name of this console?
That said, a good way to get and keep aggro in a Cruiser is to fly a Tactical Leaning Cruiser...by that I mean, Excelsior, Regent, Ody with Tac in LTC slot so you can turn out more damage skills like FAW 2/3, Overload 2/3, Torp Spread 2/3 while still having another viable Tactical skill.
I, for example, in my Fleet Excelsior, run TT1, FAW2, and Overload 3. Overload 3 + Buffs + DBB can draw some serious aggro from a single target, especially on a nice big crit.
Oh, and you can also purchase and use the Fleet Boosts that give +whatever to Tactical Skills in space, which will up your damage and your Threat Control. I usually buy a Tac and Engi version for my Engi Cruiser for all sorts of awesomeness.
true that...TSS, HE, ET are already much apreciated, whe i'm not tanking in my escort i usually give my HE and TSS to the person tanking.
Not a huge fan of ES3, much rather use ET3, since escorts tend to be able to manage their own shields pretty well, and if not, TSS2 is a much better way, esp since you can fire and forget.
The main problem I have with keeping escorts alive is that they are always zipping around and not staying within 10k of the healing cruiser. That being said, I prefer fire and forget heals, ones you can launch and they can move away. That being said, my preferred heal setup in the event I can't draw aggro off an escort is HE1, TSS1 and 2, Aux2SIF3, and ET3. Great combination of hull and shield heals. And if all else fails you can always shoot them your EPS transfer skill to boost their shield power by 30 (if you are an engi you can do that, if you're a tac in a heal-cruiser... well I just... wow...).
Extend Shields, Engineering Team, along with HE and TSS make even the worst built escort a better tank than a cruiser can be.
Combine that with some eject warp plasma for zone denial/cc, perhaps an attack pattern beta with disruptors to boost everyone's DPS or another non selfish proc, even an aceton beam helps reduce an NPCs damage output a fair amount. Those are the cruisers I love to see in my PuGs.
Threat Control should have NEVER been added to the game, creates a false misconception if you ask me.
Actually now that I really think on it that is pretty much the root of the problem to me with cruisers more so than DPS/tank/anything. In the PvE setup both a science vessel and the escort have some considerable force multipling boff abilities that help your team considerable, those being attack pattern beta/delta for tac and energy drain and gravity well to a lesser extent for sci. Attack pattern beta will be the number one DPS contributor for a boff ability and well a completely drained target is self explanatory. Engineer boff abilities do have some things going for the team like healing and eject warp plasma but they are just not on the same level at all as far as force multipliers go.
So... if there was a cruiser, it had to turn to keeping the main DD alive. Something it could do (not as well as a sci, but hey, it's better than sitting looking pretty).
When you remove hard coded relied upon roles, that being tank/healer/dd or the holy trinity yet still want to keep variety in 'classes' so to speak it does tend not to be very well implemented and gets messy. Some would approach the the subject with a different but equal approach where everyone can tank/dd just as well as the other but with a different method but that tends to also fail.
So what is the other approach or solution? I really think this is a place where the MMO genre could take a page from the new MOBA genre. In MOBAs their is no holy trinity so to speak, but you still have roles. You have carriers who are weak early game but excel late game and they even have a built in difference of AP or AD where the AP tends to be more 'burst' and the AD tends to be more 'sustain'. You also have supports who while do at times have the ability to heal damage more often they have the capability to shield and buff allies while bringing some crowd control abilities to the table. Then their are the bruisers or tanky DPS who shine mid game and deal solid damage while being able to take a beating typically with some built in healing capability. Finally their are tanks that tend to be broken into initiators who start a fight and peelers who protect the squishies. They tend to have crowd control abilities and debuffs as well. And many characters can fill more than one role and their is a good bit of overlap and this is just a very brief basic overview.
Now while I don't think this would translate directly to STO perhaps it should to a point depending upon how the ships were paired with the captain and the setup used.
Escorts would primarily be and are similar to the AP carriers and tanky DPS. They bring the pain in burst and depending on setup can take it as well. Sadly with current design they both have the highest burst AND sustained damage output with few exceptions.
Cruisers would be a mix between the initiator and the AD carry. They bring the solid steady damage matching an escort depending on build and would excel at initiating the fight and have the ability to cc and debuff while doing it. Unfortunately in the current game they tend to just be hybrids that can do any role decently but not as well as another type and do not tend to bring anything extra to the table at the same time.
Sci Vessels would fall mostly into the support role at first glance but would also be in both the AP carry department and the peeler style tank mainly because some AP carriers excel in AOE damage. They mostly work well within the current game in that role but do lack the raw burst damage Post Nerf thanks to the Tac/Sci craziness.
And in some ways STO does promote this type of setup but then it just falls flat on its face due to poor implementation of several things. I blame this on an over focus on simulation aspects of the popular GSN model that creates issues along with underlying math that has gotten out of whack in the game. I might ramble more about that later.
I wanted to avoid saying too much because it is just more entertaining "educating" players in pvp, but all of the roles you mention here (and more) exist in STO, just few players understand how to build or use them. I only discovered them by accident after getting bored of the existing escorts long ago. A lot of ships just seemed like wastes of space, but I made a point to just give them a legitimate chance/prove they are wastes of space. I was wrong. STO is not DPS based. The combat mechanics are complicated for a reason. There is sustained DPS and there is burst DPS. The problem is a lot of players are prone to target fixation. In an escort, this means that they are ignoring the full scope of what is going on. ESCORTS DO NOT have the highest sustained DPS. They can only maintain their DPS in isolated circumstances. Understanding and adapting your strategy to these circumstances is key.
Lastly, do not rely on the combat log exclusively. It doesn't lie, but it is not showing you everything and if you die, it isn't an isolated circumstance, it's because you made/are making a mistake.
You are half right and half wrong. You are correct with your statement that STO is not completely DPS based. But you are incorrect because most end game PvE content is. PvP is a whole different beast, but this thread is about ESTFs, where escorts can easily sustain their burst. I would know, since I do it all the time, constantly cycling TT, CRF, APB and EPtW. That gives me constant high damage, with 66% uptime on my tactical abilities and 100% uptime on my EPtW (love my damage control engis).
However I say MOST because in no win scenario, you need heals. That you can share. Which Escorts cannot really tote around, due to their low rank Engi and sci BOff slots. But since this is discussing ESTFs, which I am sorry to say ARE DPS based (except HOE, which most pilots just globally complain about, myself not included, I rather enjoy that challenge level) which again, makes your point half correct and half wrong.
*takes a deep breath*
*remains calm*
For starters... APB is a DEFENSE and RESISTANCE debuff, which ADDS to DPS. Thus nullifying your first point.
Secondly with how cannon firing patterns go, more often than not, there is spillover from my CRF into the void zone (where I don't have CRF actually active), but due to how the weapon cycles, as soon as it starts firing, all modifiers will remain throughout it's entire firing cycle. Which means the uptime is actually closer to 80-90% with how DHC cycles go. Which isn't burst. Burst implies huge damage over a small period of time, with long periods of time between cycles. AKA torpedoes. TS3 and THY3 are examples of bursts. Good captains who know their abilities and timing inside and out can SUSTAIN that "burst" damage. Put into perspective, during the 15 second cycle, I usually get 4 cannon salvos off. 3 of those are always modified with APB and CRF. That 4th one will also be modified by those two abilities 50% of the time. And any remaining down time on the abilities is usually when my cannons are recharging between cycles. Nullifying your second point.
Now for your third comment, you are correct, a lot of escort pilots foolishly sit still and pretend to be cruisers. And get popped. All I have to say to that is EPtS1/2, TSS1/2, HE1/2, EM3, and FPE. My fleet patrol can tank a tac cube from point blank with almost no effort. While still maintaining that huge sustained DPS. That's on my fed. On my KDF I use a Fleet Tor'kaht. And I don't need to tell you that things ability to tank while still dealing tremendous sustained DPS. And I use both ships within 5k of my target. Nullifying your third point.
All of your points are situational, and I have situations that negate them. I will not say my argument is impervious, far from it. But I will say that you aren't really giving enough credit to captains that learned how to maximize damage under all situations. Your comment about how the arc of weapons is mostly forward is true, but the ships that use them have no trouble keeping a target in that arc. Escorts have the highest turn rates out of almost every ship in the game (still beat out by small craft), and battlecruisers can turn fast enough to do the same.
I give you credit for thinking it out. I however don't think you thought through it enough.
I had to double check but yes this is infact the PvE subforum hence we are disguising the ships in relation to PvE, not PvP.
Second listen to what hereticknight is saying, he is correct. I tank tac cubes POINT BLANK in escorts all the time. I'm talking Tac/Defiant, Eng/FPE/Steamy, Sci/Varies so not in isolated situations but all the time even now that I can't hide from their torpedoes. And if I do explode before the cube it simply means one of two things.
1) I messed up
2) Team lacks dps AND ability to crossheal
Their is one goal, and one goal only in PvE. Dealing as much damage as humanly possible in the quickest manner. Attack Pattern Beta helps that happen, gravity well helps that happen, energy drains help that happen. And while yes someone keeping everyone alive either directly by tanking or indirectly by healing would help that happen it is not required because of the design of the game grants every single ship a large amount of built in self and targeted healing capability. What else would I put in my eng slots but Epower to Shields? Well I do have two copies of DEM on my steamrunner I guess but I also still have the two copies of Epower so it is all good. It is so easy to tank stuff that on my blasphemous beam array FPE I run two copies of Epower to weapons and don't even bother to use the Epower to shields unless I'm facing Donotra or a cube + gate.
The point about the weapon arcs and the attempted weapons platforms is: use strafing runs if you can't stay alive. This is compared to other vessels that can remain in the fray. It might not be true for everyone, but it has increasingly been the focus in changes to PvE. Escorts lend themselves well to strafing runs and will take on a bursty characteristic. Tanky-er vessels with broader arcs can generally sit there without having to disengage. The newer PvE missions are also increasingly dependent on other roles as well. Even within the STFs, crowd control, and debuffs are important for some objectives for your average PUG.
You are missing the point about the debuff. There is your raw damage and then additional factors that will effect it, which other types of vessels can be involved in. Other vessels can also use more exotic attacks that can be brutal when used right.
Bareel - to the point of the original post, if you are going squish because you can't master the basic gameplay style of your ship, should other classes really have to compromise their builds in homage to the apparent godly damage of the escorts? What if the whole team used their vessels in ways that each aid damage and even with some additional adaptability?
PvP and PvE may be different, but most of the same gameplay mechanics and principles remain the same, and when properly applied, do not result in lost objectives and involve no dieing.
Where on earth did I say that I'm getting squished all the time or that expect others to compromise their builds in homage? I have agreed that escorts occasionally explode with me at the driver seat and I have suggested what I feel is a better build approach but never in the way you imply. Do you even read my post before replying and insulting both my skill as a player and maturity in a group setting? Try reading the post this time mate.
- Escorts do NOT need anyone to tank or heal with rare exceptions
- In those exceptions a debuff heavy/energy draining Sci/Carrier are optimal
- Strafing beyond the yo-yo maneuver is NOT required of Escorts
- Optimal play in PvP and PvE are completely and total different to the point of comparing a raid group in vanilla wow to one in classic EQ. Key word 'optimal'
- Optimal PvE group consists of 4 heavy hitters (escort/raptor/bop/dreads/BCs) and a single debuffer/cc with skill (Carrier preferred) in the vast majority of content.
- Aside from hardcore draining the proper escort can bring all the force multipliers/roles to the table AND more damage (Advanced for Gravity Well as an example) including the best group ability in the game Attack Pattern Beta 3.
- Cruisers, and to a lesser extent Science Vessels, need to have a role they excel at in this content that they do not currently have.
- Escorts do NOT need anyone to tank or heal with rare exceptions
And I'm still waiting to see your cruiser build that aids the team in damage and has some additional adaptability over the standard escort unless by adaptability you mean it can tank/heal a bit better while dealing a bit less damage.
If you can do that then why should I even entertain the thought of flying my Excelsior?
Once again the escort does everything the cruiser does only better...
Because you enjoy flying it and are still contributing enough to the group to get the optional damage wise anyway if your built properly.
Optimal is not the only way, not even the best way. Good enough and fun is best and if anyone complains tell them they need to carry harder. I mean the Estfs can be completed by ships all using white gear with optional in a hodge podge group as long as they are built correctly.
It is true that all 3 of the old space elite stfs be completed in 5 minutes or less by a well-coordinated team flying optimal ships but their is nothing wrong with taking 14 minutes if it means you fly what you love. I'm sure you out damage half the escorts in the queues anyway so don't worry about it.
But at the same time that is why I really wish they would give cruisers a buff, a nudge. Nothing major just something.
The following are some things I have learned while playing. In PvE, I am fighting the AI. The AI is stupid. If the AI were not stupid there would be no need to give it advantages like InvisiTorps and the like. The AI does not use the abilities of whatever ship it is flying effectively ever. Further the AI has to cheat just to stay even with the newest player let alone someone who's been playing a long time. In PvP, I am fighting the Enemy Captain, not the Enemy ship. Someone who plays poorly or incorrectly will lose. Regardless of what GodShip with GodWeapons and GodAbilities her/she has.
We all encourage people to think outside the box and pat ourselves on the back long and hard whenever we are able to do so. We claim to respect people who do it their way according to their rules and damn the torpedoes. James T. Kirk is the best example of this I know. Yet whenever another person tries to implement this outside the box thinking ingame, somebody yells at them. Because 'Everybody Knows!' blah blah blah. The best piece of advice about playing STO(my 1st MMO) I ever got was this. A fleetmate told me to listen to everyone but make up my own mind about how I wanted to play. Because as long as I was having fun and other people wanted me on their team or in their fleet, I was probably doing it right. Or as close to right as I could get at the time. Been playing this way for about a year now and so far it has been one helluva ride.
I can tank in an escort. Do so all the time. I rather like the comments when my glass cannon soaks up everything an enemy can throw at it and is still standing to smack said enemy a second time. Does my team no good whatsoever if I deliver a crippling blow to Donatra and then go visit Respawnville immediately afterwards. If she aggros on me then, she'll follow me and ignore everyone else. I like being able to two shot an Oddy in PvP. Then, the rest of the Enemy Captains fire on me en masse and sit there in shock because my ship doesn't die. I dunno about you, OP, but any time I can give my team a few free shots at the Enemy, in either PvE or PvP, I'm gonna do it. Does this support the team? I think so. Is it 'tanking in an escort' the way you mean it? I'm not sure.
Currently I'm flying one of these 'optimised' builds but it's no fun sitting for 2-3 minutes killing something an escort can spend under 30 seconds shredding...
Before season 6 I ran a jack of all trades Excelsior, back then this reigned true, I could rip CSE BoPs to shreds, admittedly not as fast as the escorts but it was fast enough that I felt I was making a difference, then with season 6 my build fell flat on it's face and was useless at everything it was formally good at.
I wouldn't know about out damaging half the PuG escorts as I don't run them anymore
Same here's my idea upon how this could be done
escorts can't tank as good as cruisers...they can evade better (15% more def) but while evading, escorts deal less than half the dmg they could.
Escorts have very poor support capabilitys.
i can sit face to face with an elite tac tube (NOT moving, even if it is not a smart thing to do) and still out tank the incoming dmg. No escort can do that.
If i get aggro with my escorts, i usually hit brace for impact and EPtS and start to move out of its range. Sometimes i still get blasted 12km away by some invis torp.
2 TT on rotation and you will practically never run out of shieldpoints. thats in my opinion the only advantage an escort has for tanking, but cruiser (not all) can copy that if they have 2 ensign tac slots.
Anyway, i personally think all team powers should have the shield distribution build in, or atleast ET3 and ST3 should have it, to make the second TT less important.
*even one is sufficent if you stack the appropriate conn officer.
what cruisers definately need is a simple turnrate buff across the board. 6 to 8, 7 to 9, but none should have more than 10.
and 360 degree beams
and sci ships an additional rear weapon slot
and mine abilitys should start at ensign.
thats about everything, thank you
One concept that would be useful to introduce here is that of "Effective Hit Points", which any EVE player will be familiar with, but isn't talked about much in STO since resists are generally transitory and buff-based. Let's saw I've got an escort with MACO shields, and two copies of Emergency to Shields 1; that'll give me about 35% resistance to all shield damage (10% MACO shield ability, 5% resilient shields, 20% EPtS 1), meaning that if I have 1000 damage coming in, and 1000 shield HP, I only lose 650 shield HP, which would be equivalent to having had 1350 'effective HP' before getting attacked. Now let's suppose that I also have Extends 3 on me, which provides about a 40% resist; I now take 75% less damage, which is a quadrupling of my effective HP, which means it'll take a whole lot longer to kill me.
There is another important reason why resistances from Extends, EPtS, TSS, etc. are vital: healing. Let's say that a theoretical sci ship is capable of providing an average of 500 healing per second. If the above escort has only it's own shield resist abilities going, it's taking 650 damage per second, beyond the shield-healing abilities of the science ship, and will eventually die. However, if the resists are at 75%, it takes a mere 250 damage per second, and that same science ship, instead of being unable to keep a single escort afloat, can now comfortably keep two such ships alive indefinitely.
Disclaimer: The above numbers are for illustrative purposes, since there exist diminishing returns with regard to shield resists; nevertheless, the concept is still valid. I simply chose nice numbers to work with in order to make my point.
Shield resists function as a powerful force-multiplier not only for your own effective hit points, and thus survival time in the absence of healing, but also swings the healing vs. DPS race in the favour of your team. I pvp a lot, and as any serious pvp'er can attest, the healing demands placed upon a PvP team facing good opponents are far more strenuous than those encountered in typical PvE play; we've gotten into the gritty details of how exactly to optimize healing in a team environment. With new content like Hive Onslaught possibly needing solid healing, look to what has been demonstrated to work in PvP for healing, and that is cruisers to provide hull healing & strong shield resists, while the science ships keep your shields full with science team 3 every 15 seconds and TSS to provide that extra bit of resist and HP.
Below are some example builds that I've found to be successful, and reflect this sort of philosophy; the cruisers aren't designed to do the best DPS, the sci ships aren't designed to control everything in sight, but each ship is designed to fulfill it's role in a balanced team. You might notice the lack of tac teams on the cruiser: a good escort pilot sends that to other ships that really need it, just like the cruiser sends an extends to the escort that gets focused. An integrated team build, with a pre-made team behind it, will cruise through the STFs with little difficulty.
Escort: Link
Cruiser: Link
Sci Ship: Link
your builds seem very much focused on PVP. While i do support the notion that PVP builds work well for any PVE content, you can specialize your build towards PVE...stfs especially.
So in that retrospective the cruiser build is way too tanky or supportive in my opinion...with that you can probably park between gate and tac cube and not even feel them both pounding on you.
basically thats a nice PVP cruiser build, that in my opinion will never draw aggro away from an above average escort.
for the sci build you postet the same, viral matrix, cool for PVP, practically useless in PVE...TBR, grav well is the choice for PVE.
Role in balanced team is one thing, but certain abilitys are just a waste in PVE. No need for ES3 if your cruiser has aggro 90% of the time. And torpedo spreads are very nice to draw aggro and keep it.
As to the sci build; that's one I had lying around, and the guy requested a build specifically for Hive Onslaught, where VM to shut down torp spread and FBP can be useful. I agree that GW 3 would be more useful for the other missions; happily boffs are easy to swap.
The cruiser needs all of those heals, because even with threat control, keeping aggro with high DPS escorts on the field is not a sure thing; if you're dealing with run-of-the-mill pug quality escort pilots, you can hold aggro, the good escorts get it no matter why you do, so I find it better to focus on healing them than keeping the aggro myself. It's actually not very tanky, with EPtS 1 & 2; primarily supportive.
yeah in that case you can just take the PVP build for stfs and support the escorts with heals. i understand your point.
I wouldn't discount that cruiser just yet if I were you. You got the ship to begin with for the same reasons I purchased the ones I have. Because it looked fun and you wanted it. While flying it, you're enjoying yourself or at least you seem to be. I view all of my ships as WIPs. They're never so good I cannot adjust them somewhere and there will always be things I'd like them to do better. Most times when my ship doesn't perform as expected it is because of me, not the crew or the hardware. Most of the time when my team does not do as well as we expect, it is because of a lack of effective communication amongst ourselves. Again, this is not a crew or hardware issue, it is a Captain issue.