And this is where I disagree, strongly. There is a world of difference between a good team and a bad team. And those differences will be clear from the first exchange of fire, most often. A good player will always be recognisable as a good player, a bad player as a bad player, no matter what gear they use.
I also see this differently. I think most players will still be playing to try and improve their game, their tactics and their performance. Many weak players teamed up with a good team will learn from this, particularly if they are already well-geared: then they can not blame gear, and will be forced to realise it's their gameplay that causes the difference.
Also, once a player that does not have the skillset, and/or willingless to learn, to do elites has the gear, I doubt they'd keep going into those missions. Getting killed again and again is little fun, if you do not see it as a challenge to up your game.
With the direct need to run elite STF's for mk XII gear eliminated, those players not enjoying the elites can stick to normal mode, instead. However, I suspect a large amount of gamers will still feel drawn to elites, for the challenge and the additional learning curve.
Of course ,but even elite stf players need their "unique" rewards .Yes i know when you think about "its elite ,the playtrhough should be the reward for doing it no need for more than that " works ,but after you play few times without a thing/goal/reward to fool you (like I said they could add a elite tribble or something to fool people and make some kind of goal ...no need for OP weapons ) gets old pretty fast.
I agree that is not fair ,but thats how humans work.They need to give some useless s*** which only those who play alot of elite stuffs can get .Each elite mission in this game should have some thing hard to get which will show others "that person played alot of X mission" .Those who run after epohhs will get a purple epohh .I will never have one so give me some stf things ...borg pet or assimilated epohh
Meaning its a stepping stone Game to fund other more important PWE projects. I have to hand it to the Chinese, they are smart people, with a shrewed way of doing business.
Im pretty sure the manager guy who is responsable for the current system is more american than most americans :P
STO like it or not is better than it was a year ago.It may have less content for hardcore players (I said players not fleet grind machines) but the game is better and has more things in it.
STO like it or not is better than it was a year ago.It may have less content for hardcore players (I said players not fleet grind machines) but the game is better and has more things in it.
I'm sorry, but this is a fallacy - STO has hardly grown or evolved at all since F2P hit us - all of the stuff that new players fawn over when they join the game is the stuff that was there since STO was a P2P game.
Since F2P we've had:
Lockboxes
Fleet Starbases
The Doff System
Defera
Nukara
One new featured episode series (the 2800)
and now New Romulus and the Reputation System
Barring the Doff System (which is rapidly turning from something that was great into just another time/money pit) and the 2800 (which has its moments), none of these additions make the game any better - IMO they've actually made it worse since it's development time and money spent on assets and systems that make the game less fun to play.
If the rep system was simply about giving *those people* their ground set drop it could have been solved in any number of ways.
Problem is with the new system you no longer have a reason to continue playing stf - unlike before.
So where it was supposed to prolong game time, which it might do for a short period for some of you, it's actually killing stf.
Classic cliche here, just like pissing your pants to stay warm.
As I said before anyone who feels it's justfied to kill the whole game for their one pity drop needs to rethink their life.
And just to add to that, you might be able to buy your set now but we all know you didn't go out and actually earn it.
So in the end I have to ask if you feel it was a great call to fubar the whole game up just so you could have your little plastic replica of what was once prestigious ?
I'm sorry, but this is a fallacy - STO has hardly grown or evolved at all since F2P hit us - all of the stuff that new players fawn over when they join the game is the stuff that was there since STO was a P2P game.
Since F2P we've had:
Lockboxes
Fleet Starbases
The Doff System
Defera
Nukara
One new featured episode series (the 2800)
and now New Romulus and the Reputation System
I fail to see how winning a dice roll qualified as "earning it". Conversely, putting in a certain amount of effort and being rewarded consistently based on that effort does easily qualify as "earning it". We can argue about what the exact costs could be, or whether specific gear should be tied to specific missions, but the new system is the one where you earn things.
This whole debate boils down to this:
"I had to suffer through the old system, so now you have to suffer too."
Well, I'm sorry that some people invested so much time into a system that was fundamentally broken. Or maybe you got all your drops inside of a day and just liked showing off in social zones. Whatever, the problem is we had no idea how much anybody actually "earned" anything before. Now we do, because it's always the same.
We can't continue to have a broken system just out of some misguided sense of "fairness" to everybody who suffered (or lucked out) in the old system. Everybody had the choice to either continue trying under the existing system or wait for the new one. I stopped going after STFs as hard months ago after I first heard a dev say they were revamping the reward system to remove the chance element. I focused instead on Fleet stuff after S6 launched. Now I'm playing STF more again. My choice, as it was everybody else's.
It costs how much?? What that means for this particular player is that he wont be bothering with getting the sets
I dont do Elites, preferring normal runs but theres no way I'm grinding for that amount of points. It strikes me that its now harder for the casual player to get the high end gear.
I'm now questioning why I should bother grinding through the tiers if the costs for the "toys" is going to be so steep?
The "FUN" is rapidly dissapearing from this game and that saddens me.
In the old days you HAD to play ground, you had to be able to fight on the ground and beat maps.
Now, you don't.
Wearing a groundset in the old days was associated with respect, now, it's not.
In season 7 you pay Y x crazy amount to not have to put in work. Is it pay to win? Well, more like paying to be lazy...
Sorry to rain on your parade, I can tell you were looking forward to being awesome, but the glory of those sets died with stf.
Not that I care, I earned mine the right way - and I don't even wear them either :rolleyes:
The point was not if you'd personally be happy or not, the point was; was it worth killing all of stf, which just so happened to be the main gamplay for a lot of people, just so you could get the drops you gave up on NOW that they lost their actual prestige ?
We can also take the prestige part out of the question if that distracts you too much and simply ask, do you think it's reasonable to kill the one thing that worked in the game, just so you personally could be free from playing ground missions ?
I said many times over I'd HAPPILY give up ALL my future set drops to random people on a list if we could have old stf's back.
Hand them out for free, put them on the c-store, change drop rates and all the other things I can't think of, I don't care.
Just don't kill stf and tell me you are doing me a favour.
Problem is with the new system you no longer have a reason to continue playing stf - unlike before.
So where it was supposed to prolong game time, which it might do for a short period for some of you, it's actually killing stf.
Classic cliche here, just like pissing your pants to stay warm.
As I said before anyone who feels it's justfied to kill the whole game for their one pity drop needs to rethink their life.
And just to add to that, you might be able to buy your set now but we all know you didn't go out and actually earn it.
So in the end I have to ask if you feel it was a great call to fubar the whole game up just so you could have your little plastic replica of what was once prestigious ?
So ehm. For my main, I got the full mk XII in about 2-3 months. For one of my alts, I got lucky, got it in a week (some 15 stf's). Another alt, two weeks. Felt lucky, but not exactly reward for effort. Now guess what: I never, ever have the visuals on those sets enabled.
Want to know why? Because 1) I think the visuals detract from the aesthetic of my characters, and 2) I fail to see how that would add to my quality as a player.
Also, I do still have a reason to play stf's: because I actually like to do so. In your words, I think anyone who repeats a set of missions again and again for the sole reason of a gear drop and the perceived prestige that gives needs to rethink their life.
I have to ask Cryptic, why the high costs with the STF Sets?
Granted the MK X Sets is a walk in the park and the MK XI Sets is a mile run, but the MK XI sets is the New York Marathon. Over 1000 Omega Marks per set, and the aforementioned 34000 Dilithum per set piece?
Did you not say this system supposed to help people who been struggling for months to get a MK12 set with the old STF system?
So now we (those have not completed our Elite sets), now have to do 20 Elite STF runs (getting optional every time) per set piece? Which means for a full ground or space set you need to do 60 Elite Runs? (Even more if for the MK12, the Adapted, and Space sets).
I just can't help but to think that this is a worse deal than the old way. We worked our buns off for 10 months with no luck, spend over a month grinding to Tier 5 Reputation and unlock it, then have to spend more months grinding to get the Set pieces we been after since Season 5 went live?
Is it me, or is a worse deal than what we were promised?
I gut the normal borg set we had in year one that one is the best against every species even better than the Mk XII Honerguard or Omega set. So why even bother yourself with those gears ??
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Coffee: the finest organic suspension ever devised. It's got me through the worst of the last three years. I beat the Borg with it."
I think the visuals detract from the aesthetic of my characters
...the perceived prestige --
Those 2 don't go together, you try to mock me for carring about visuals just after you rationalize how much your are into the appearance of your character?
Want to try again ?
If you don't feel a sense of accomplisment for the ground missions you played, unlucky you.
Sure, if you got carried by your fleet with your eyes closed I can see you didn't feel a sense of growing and improving... and the sets might represent exactly nothing to you, sure.
Me, I pug'd every last piece I ever got and I had to fight to point of expert professionalism you can't imagine.
I used google translator to push 2 virgins through CGE, just absolutely relentless and so they are a symbol of what I did on the ground.
Obviously if you never did anything on the ground they are symbol of nothing as in your case but at least for you it marks you were on ground maps at some point.
Also, I think your "got my set in 2 weeks" isn't actually helping defend season 7.
Anyway to sum up, just because you didn't put in any work on the ground and thus felt no prestige, doesn't mean the prestige there was has not be lost.
What you never had is lost for everyone, makes sense ?
In the old days you HAD to play ground, you had to be able to fight on the ground and beat maps.
Now, you don't.
This is a separate issue. I'm merely talking about random drops vs. reputation unlocks. Since you seem to like argument structure, I believe this is a strawman.
Wearing a groundset in the old days was associated with respect, now, it's not.
So, again, it's about lording it over other players because they're not as lucky as you? And I'm supposed to sympathize why...?
In season 7 you pay Y x crazy amount to not have to put in work. Is it pay to win? Well, more like paying to be lazy...
Amazing how we can simultaneously complain that the reputation system's inputs are too high and require too much work, but that it's also lazy and requires no work. Did somebody not just point out in this thread how many Elites you'd have to run to get all the gear? That seems like a lot of, you know, work.
Sorry to rain on your parade, I can tell you were looking forward to being awesome, but the glory of those sets died with stf.
Actually, I could care less about strutting around in MACO armor. I wouldn't display it if I had it, since I prefer the standard uniforms. Full sets of body armor aren't very Star Trek to me Thanks for making assumptions though.
Not that I care, I earned mine the right way - and I don't even wear them either :rolleyes:
Please define what criteria you used to determine what the "right way" is.
The point was not if you'd personally be happy or not, the point was; was it worth killing all of stf, which just so happened to be the main gamplay for a lot of people, just so you could get the drops you gave up on NOW that they lost their actual prestige ?
We can also take the prestige part out of the question if that distracts you too much and simply ask, do you think it's reasonable to kill the one thing that worked in the game, just so you personally could be free from playing ground missions ?
I said many times over I'd HAPPILY give up ALL my future set drops to random people on a list if we could have old stf's back.
Hand them out for free, put them on the c-store, change drop rates and all the other things I can't think of, I don't care.
Just don't kill stf and tell me you are doing me a favour.
I still don't understand what's preventing you from playing whatever mission you like. Did I miss the patch note that said "vestereng is forever banned from STF because we have a rep system now"? If you already had all the gear, I don't see what's changed for you. You obviously had other reasons to play STFs, what was taken away from you? If anything, you should be happy. The people playing most STFs are more likely to want to be there. The grinders are just hitting ISE over and over. If you're having trouble getting a PUG in the queue, hit up one of the STF channels. I'm sure there are still plenty of people there who want to play.
Within the older system, you could not earn the elite tech. You got elite drops at a very-very random interval.
Now you have to earn them.
/this
1000 times this
but i would prefer the cost for gear NOT being Dillithium, but the marks. Tons of them. Like you want veteran gear? Show it..
they could also leave some MKXII set parts dropping with the optional bag, with a very low chance. That way people would get at least SOMETHING for free and they would not AFK so much..
You said if you wear a ground set, you have something to show off, aka. in YOUR mind prestigious for a person to wear it.
So it's your words not an assumption.
And adding to that you clearly state you gave up until you found out there is now a cheap way to get back in, to buy your way out of playing ground missions. then you came back, so saying you really don't care doesn't go very far.
Like I said, yes you can buy it now, the cheap, lazy, cash, non real way BUT it will be without having earned it actually playing ground.
I think you should be rational enough to agree it's easier to play the same 200 maps on easy mode getting carried and throw down some cash for dil, than having to go solo cure ground elite, even a single time, am I wrong.
It takes actual twitch skill to beat those ground maps plain and simple, you can't make up for the lack of that by playing infected space elite 400 times, 1000 times or 10,000 times.
It's still the same level of ability you are using each run.
And now that's how it is, wearing a ground set today means absolutely nothing - regardless if you were able to talk me into believing what you personally felt, that's how it is.
Wearing a ground set is no longer proof you played ground and so they have no meaning.
People who wear ground sets now are no longer ground players and thus all of the sets are "plastic replicas" as I call them, which is a reference to the visa card you used but also mocks the whole "what are you made of soldier" respect era that is now dust.
And then lastly I asked the question, was it worth killing all of the game for, you getting NOW worthless sets you gave up on ?
Yes I know you don't get that, that's part of the whole question, how can you have so narrow a mind, to only care about your 1 pityful drop, to the point the whole server has to get shafted.
"I don't understand other people's situation", well that's probably the problem right there, you know...
Its cute you think there was ever any kind of objective prestige associated with a full set of mk12 gear. You may have valued it, but that doesnt mean anyone else did. The armor doesnt represent skill and barely represents dedication because of how random it was. The armor only has SUBJECTIVE value. You valued it because of the effort you put into getting it.
Ignorance is an obstacle not an excuse
Let the stupid suffer
You might want to go check out blog 8 for season 7 that rationalizes ALL of this whole release as a shortcut to people getting their sets faster before you try to cook up a story like that
I think you are trying to rationalize to yourself why you gave up on ground - doesn't really change anything for me what you tell yourself.
But, but, but you are overlooking the point in getting insulted over being a poor ground player.
I am not against you people have them at all, in fact the opposite; you could have my set drops and anyone else missing them or they could hand them out for free.
What I said was, there was no reason to kill the entire game just so you could have your drop.
Would you like me to provide you with my account details so you can log in and check for yourself? Or shall I provide screenshots of my accolades and bank/inventory content? Or maybe the Accolades that show how many runs I've done v how many items of Mk XII that have dropped?
I don't like being called a liar and if that is the level of your argument then I see no point in continuing to discuss any points you have to make.
EDIT: there ya go
If you REALLY did over 300 Elite STF then that means that you at least earned over 600 Encrypted Data Chips!!!
Maybe you failed acquiring the Mark XII Elite gear but you certainly could acquire for FREE every pieces of the Mark XI via converting EDC.
And lets not even start counting how many Mark XII brog weapons and other pieces of equipment and Dilithium boxes you did acquire with all the salvages you won over 300 run.
Face it. The new system is WAY less rewarding than the old one.
It could be worse, you could be a noob running normal STF'S to grind for Mk X & Mk XI gear. It will take that poor noob around 70 runs to get enough marks for a single Mk X set, and closer to 80 for the Maco/HG/Omega Mk X.
Of course, that's not going to happen anymore, why bother with normal when you can just jump into Elite and get carried to victory. No one with half a brain is going to waste time grinding out lower tir gear with normal's anymore.
You might want to go check out blog 8 for season 7 that rationalizes ALL of this whole release as a shortcut to people getting their sets faster before you try to cook up a story like that
I think you are trying to rationalize to yourself why you gave up on ground - doesn't really change anything for me what you tell yourself.
But, but, but you are overlooking the point in getting insulted over being a poor ground player.
I am not against you people have them at all, in fact the opposite; you could have my set drops and anyone else missing them or they could hand them out for free.
What I said was, there was no reason to kill the entire game just so you could have your drop.
Hardly a poor ground player. I dont like ground combat because its dull and feels more like a TRIBBLE knockoff of wow or everquest or any of the half dozen fantasy MMOs ive played. I like space combat more so thats where i spend my time. Even with the current system I'll convert my stuff to dilithium over getting ground gear because ground combat is dull.
Edit: good job on completely ducking the point though, which is your gear has no intrinsic value beyond its function. Anything else is simply perspective. If it makes you feel any better i dont value mk12 space stuff either except as being numerically better
Ignorance is an obstacle not an excuse
Let the stupid suffer
Those 2 don't go together, you try to mock me for carring about visuals just after you rationalize how much your are into the appearance of your character?
Want to try again ?
If you don't feel a sense of accomplisment for the ground missions you played, unlucky you.
Sure, if you got carried by your fleet with your eyes closed I can see you didn't feel a sense of growing and improving... and the sets might represent exactly nothing to you, sure.
Me, I pug'd every last piece I ever got and I had to fight to point of expert professionalism you can't imagine.
I used google translator to push 2 virgins through CGE, just absolutely relentless and so they are a symbol of what I did on the ground.
Obviously if you never did anything on the ground they are symbol of nothing as in your case but at least for you it marks you were on ground maps at some point.
Also, I think your "got my set in 2 weeks" isn't actually helping defend season 7.
Anyway to sum up, just because you didn't put in any work on the ground and thus felt no prestige, doesn't mean the prestige there was has not be lost.
What you never had is lost for everyone, makes sense ?
Sorry, from some of your previous words I gathered you cared about the set costumes for bragging rights, if I was mistaken there, I apologise.
What I tried to explain was that I got my sense of accomplishment from, you know, accomplishing the mission. The drops were random, and therefore out of my control.
And sure some people get carried through missions by their fleet mates, but that has never bothered me.
I also suspect you misimagined my case, judging from your post. I have pugged all of my STF's as well, just like you (I'm in a 2-man fleet with an inactive friend Fed-side, fleetless on my KDF characters). And I am glad you too take the time to help new players out, and I know that can be hard, at times. It is exactly those kinds of run that gave me particular pleasure in finishing them too - regardless of whether I got lucky in the RNG that time.
I also still fail to see how the STF's are killed. They seemed to be doing ok, last time I checked.
tali9999's point, however, is one I agree on: the Borg weapon exchanges provided an excellent and cheap way to get a (new/alt) character with decent weapons. That option's lost, and that is definitely a pity.
Why people even want the Mark XII ground set anyway? It is not like they will go play ground STFs with it anyway.
I am a big time PUG STF lover and nowadays Ground Queues are totally dead. I sometimes get to join a Khitomer ground after waiting over 15 minutes but Cure and Infected? Forget it, no one is queueing for them anymore it seems because the carrot was removed and you get your shiny anyway for doing cheap space mission.
I came to love the ground STFs because it was the only challenging stuff STO had in store for players who wanted tactical ground combat. I like ruthless borgs and Elite Tactical Heavy Drones. And i liked getting my random loot bag as a reward for fighting the toughest stuff in the game.
Well, it was another era i guess. ISE pew pew is all whats left for STF PUGers.
When did we start talking about ground vs. space? I thought this thread was about comparing the costs and work involved in getting STF gear in the old system vs. the new. Getting ground gear by running space missions is an entirely separate issue. If that's what you want, advocate having two different commodities, one for ground and one for space. That is not the point of the thread though. I feel like I'm arguing with my damn vegan boss who always tries to throw arguments for organic food in. Two totally separate things.
Now, my take on existing costs:
XP projects are fine how they are.
Store unlock projects are probably OK. If anything they're too low considering you can then claim as many as you want afterward for only dilithium.
Single unlock "requisitions" may need to come down a bit. In a certain sense, it's balanced to the old way. 2 EDC per ESTF (maybe more), 20 EDC for a Mk. X req, 10 ESTFs for a Mk. X req. 50 OM per ESTF (maybe more), 500 OM for Mk X. req, 10 ESTFs for a Mk. X req. We've already put time in grinding up through the rep system, and there's a dilithium cost associated as well, so I think a discount is in order here. Maybe 10-20%.
Hardly a poor ground player. I dont like ground combat because...
Edit: good job on completely ducking the point though, which is your gear has no intrinsic value beyond its function. Anything else is simply perspective. If it makes you feel any better i dont value mk12 space stuff either except as being numerically better
If you had played ground, you would have known, or should have known, ground combat is in fact the most innovative part about sto (outside the f2p system) and it's actually space that is your "2D point and click zombie hotbar casting" knock-off wow and all the other classic rpgs.
One of the reason ground is hard is because it's what is called twitch combat, you have to evade and fire manually in full 3D, which is quite unique for a mmorpg.
And obviously quite a few 2D'ers aren't used to that and hate ground for it. And I think you are one of those.
About your edit I don't know what point you were refering to because if something is intrinsic it is in fact very much subjective, whereas its function would be extrinsic.
So by the point you say "anything else is perspective" I don't even know where you are going anymore.
"it is what it is" well that's not really saying a lot.
I don't have any problems with you getting every drop, EC or whatever in the entire game handed into your lap in 5 minutes for 2 cents.
All I asked was, was it really necessary to kill the entire game just so a few lazy people could get the ground sets.
Since it's basically down to people buying them with plastic diltihium now anyway - making them useless, why not simply put them on the c-store and leave stf alone...
Sorry, from some of your previous words I gathered you cared about the set costumes for bragging rights, if I was mistaken there, I apologise.
I also still fail to see how the STF's are killed. They seemed to be doing ok, last time I checked.
No need, there were bragging involved just not anymore.
It killed stf for me personally and though I can't predict the future I'd say you might have people playing round now, temporay, like the people who are missing sets - but once they are done, then what ?
Whereas before you had people that were done who continued to play.
But sure it remains to be seen whether season 7 was good or bad regardless of what I personally think.
Check a poster a few posts before this one, he brings up some good points that were brought up even before season 7.
Removal of the restrospective drops takes away incentive to do anything but farm the same maps on easy mode over and over.
The topic is the price we pay which might be the ultimate one in the end. As in lost motivation to play because the reward is too little.
And ground sets new plastic replica status, no more unique drops, queue times, dil rate drop, slower fleet progress, etc. etc. all of that is the price of the stf store.
Part of that price, that it was done so people could get their ground drops.
We are losing a lot more than just a few 100's of thousands of dilithium here
I have to ask Cryptic, why the high costs with the STF Sets?
Granted the MK X Sets is a walk in the park and the MK XI Sets is a mile run, but the MK XI sets is the New York Marathon. Over 1000 Omega Marks per set, and the aforementioned 34000 Dilithum per set piece?
Did you not say this system supposed to help people who been struggling for months to get a MK12 set with the old STF system?
So now we (those have not completed our Elite sets), now have to do 20 Elite STF runs (getting optional every time) per set piece? Which means for a full ground or space set you need to do 60 Elite Runs? (Even more if for the MK12, the Adapted, and Space sets).
I just can't help but to think that this is a worse deal than the old way. We worked our buns off for 10 months with no luck, spend over a month grinding to Tier 5 Reputation and unlock it, then have to spend more months grinding to get the Set pieces we been after since Season 5 went live?
Is it me, or is a worse deal than what we were promised?
I tend to agree the Mk10 & Mk11 gear is overpriced.
Don't get angry at people because they WON'T play archaic game systems that aren't fun. Just like SWTOR is filled with old MMO mechinics that sucked the first time around, Facebook mechanics of time and resource gates are also outdated and incongruous with a modern MMO.
I don't really have any serious issues, with this. 34k strikes me as a little on the high side, however no one has hit tier 5, and we won't have a good sense of community reaction until they have move those little sliders over. I was have expected a dil cost more in line with the Fleet Gear. However I'm basically ok with it taking a year to get all the sets.
I gut the normal borg set we had in year one that one is the best against every species even better than the Mk XII Honerguard or Omega set. So why even bother yourself with those gears ??
Your opinion.
People hated the shield, thats why they ran around with the 2-3 piece sets.
*For honesty's sake, I would like to point out that it was unlikely that you got the collection of mk XII Maco and Omega ground and space sets in much less time, previously, particularly now you can grind for ground sets in space*. Also, if you divide that number by six, for the six STF's you had to run to get the prototype tech, you're up to 35 runs per tech unit; I understand some people's odds have been way worse than that.
Also: I don't consider myself a top player at all, but I generally manage 3 elite space stf's in an hour. At that rate, it's 70 hours. Even if you round it up to 100, that's not really a year, unless you're a really casual player.
Edit: I could go as far as to say that you get the adapted set as an extra, in the same amount of time you'd have spent before. Also: trust me, I do see how it is harsh on those that spent a lot of time in the previous system, and will have to again, now. But that's a matter of implementation, not necessarily a flaw in the system.
So its okay for those who didn't get any Mk12 gear prior to S7, having to grind another 6-7 months on top of the 11 months they already invested in? :rolleyes:
That's the point of the thread!
Cryptic said this system was to HELP those people, which makes what they said a major LIE! It didn't help those people, it kicked them in the groin and left them in the mud! Because it's making them wait a half a year to complete, and after a massive Dilithium price to pay as well.
I tend to agree the Mk10 & Mk11 gear is overpriced.
mk XI is overpriced but mk XII which is +1 is not .
Again why should everyone had mk XII when most people rant about how stfs suck and dont want to play them.Why those who like and play them get the same thing others buy and bash all day on the forum?
Comments
Of course ,but even elite stf players need their "unique" rewards .Yes i know when you think about "its elite ,the playtrhough should be the reward for doing it no need for more than that " works ,but after you play few times without a thing/goal/reward to fool you (like I said they could add a elite tribble or something to fool people and make some kind of goal ...no need for OP weapons ) gets old pretty fast.
I agree that is not fair ,but thats how humans work.They need to give some useless s*** which only those who play alot of elite stuffs can get .Each elite mission in this game should have some thing hard to get which will show others "that person played alot of X mission" .Those who run after epohhs will get a purple epohh .I will never have one so give me some stf things ...borg pet or assimilated epohh
Im pretty sure the manager guy who is responsable for the current system is more american than most americans :P
STO like it or not is better than it was a year ago.It may have less content for hardcore players (I said players not fleet grind machines) but the game is better and has more things in it.
I'm sorry, but this is a fallacy - STO has hardly grown or evolved at all since F2P hit us - all of the stuff that new players fawn over when they join the game is the stuff that was there since STO was a P2P game.
Since F2P we've had:
Lockboxes
Fleet Starbases
The Doff System
Defera
Nukara
One new featured episode series (the 2800)
and now New Romulus and the Reputation System
Barring the Doff System (which is rapidly turning from something that was great into just another time/money pit) and the 2800 (which has its moments), none of these additions make the game any better - IMO they've actually made it worse since it's development time and money spent on assets and systems that make the game less fun to play.
Problem is with the new system you no longer have a reason to continue playing stf - unlike before.
So where it was supposed to prolong game time, which it might do for a short period for some of you, it's actually killing stf.
Classic cliche here, just like pissing your pants to stay warm.
As I said before anyone who feels it's justfied to kill the whole game for their one pity drop needs to rethink their life.
And just to add to that, you might be able to buy your set now but we all know you didn't go out and actually earn it.
So in the end I have to ask if you feel it was a great call to fubar the whole game up just so you could have your little plastic replica of what was once prestigious ?
Nice list for F2P :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
I fail to see how winning a dice roll qualified as "earning it". Conversely, putting in a certain amount of effort and being rewarded consistently based on that effort does easily qualify as "earning it". We can argue about what the exact costs could be, or whether specific gear should be tied to specific missions, but the new system is the one where you earn things.
This whole debate boils down to this:
"I had to suffer through the old system, so now you have to suffer too."
Well, I'm sorry that some people invested so much time into a system that was fundamentally broken. Or maybe you got all your drops inside of a day and just liked showing off in social zones. Whatever, the problem is we had no idea how much anybody actually "earned" anything before. Now we do, because it's always the same.
We can't continue to have a broken system just out of some misguided sense of "fairness" to everybody who suffered (or lucked out) in the old system. Everybody had the choice to either continue trying under the existing system or wait for the new one. I stopped going after STFs as hard months ago after I first heard a dev say they were revamping the reward system to remove the chance element. I focused instead on Fleet stuff after S6 launched. Now I'm playing STF more again. My choice, as it was everybody else's.
It saddens alot of us...this game had potential.
http://austhink.com/reason/tutorials/Tutorial_2/print.htm
False premise. And I will explain why.
In the old days you HAD to play ground, you had to be able to fight on the ground and beat maps.
Now, you don't.
Wearing a groundset in the old days was associated with respect, now, it's not.
In season 7 you pay Y x crazy amount to not have to put in work. Is it pay to win? Well, more like paying to be lazy...
Sorry to rain on your parade, I can tell you were looking forward to being awesome, but the glory of those sets died with stf.
Not that I care, I earned mine the right way - and I don't even wear them either :rolleyes:
The point was not if you'd personally be happy or not, the point was; was it worth killing all of stf, which just so happened to be the main gamplay for a lot of people, just so you could get the drops you gave up on NOW that they lost their actual prestige ?
We can also take the prestige part out of the question if that distracts you too much and simply ask, do you think it's reasonable to kill the one thing that worked in the game, just so you personally could be free from playing ground missions ?
I said many times over I'd HAPPILY give up ALL my future set drops to random people on a list if we could have old stf's back.
Hand them out for free, put them on the c-store, change drop rates and all the other things I can't think of, I don't care.
Just don't kill stf and tell me you are doing me a favour.
So ehm. For my main, I got the full mk XII in about 2-3 months. For one of my alts, I got lucky, got it in a week (some 15 stf's). Another alt, two weeks. Felt lucky, but not exactly reward for effort. Now guess what: I never, ever have the visuals on those sets enabled.
Want to know why? Because 1) I think the visuals detract from the aesthetic of my characters, and 2) I fail to see how that would add to my quality as a player.
Also, I do still have a reason to play stf's: because I actually like to do so. In your words, I think anyone who repeats a set of missions again and again for the sole reason of a gear drop and the perceived prestige that gives needs to rethink their life.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Now you have to earn them.
I gut the normal borg set we had in year one that one is the best against every species even better than the Mk XII Honerguard or Omega set. So why even bother yourself with those gears ??
"Coffee: the finest organic suspension ever devised. It's got me through the worst of the last three years. I beat the Borg with it."
Those 2 don't go together, you try to mock me for carring about visuals just after you rationalize how much your are into the appearance of your character?
Want to try again ?
If you don't feel a sense of accomplisment for the ground missions you played, unlucky you.
Sure, if you got carried by your fleet with your eyes closed I can see you didn't feel a sense of growing and improving... and the sets might represent exactly nothing to you, sure.
Me, I pug'd every last piece I ever got and I had to fight to point of expert professionalism you can't imagine.
I used google translator to push 2 virgins through CGE, just absolutely relentless and so they are a symbol of what I did on the ground.
Obviously if you never did anything on the ground they are symbol of nothing as in your case but at least for you it marks you were on ground maps at some point.
Also, I think your "got my set in 2 weeks" isn't actually helping defend season 7.
Anyway to sum up, just because you didn't put in any work on the ground and thus felt no prestige, doesn't mean the prestige there was has not be lost.
What you never had is lost for everyone, makes sense ?
Still waiting for that.
This is a separate issue. I'm merely talking about random drops vs. reputation unlocks. Since you seem to like argument structure, I believe this is a strawman.
So, again, it's about lording it over other players because they're not as lucky as you? And I'm supposed to sympathize why...?
Amazing how we can simultaneously complain that the reputation system's inputs are too high and require too much work, but that it's also lazy and requires no work. Did somebody not just point out in this thread how many Elites you'd have to run to get all the gear? That seems like a lot of, you know, work.
Actually, I could care less about strutting around in MACO armor. I wouldn't display it if I had it, since I prefer the standard uniforms. Full sets of body armor aren't very Star Trek to me
Please define what criteria you used to determine what the "right way" is.
I still don't understand what's preventing you from playing whatever mission you like. Did I miss the patch note that said "vestereng is forever banned from STF because we have a rep system now"? If you already had all the gear, I don't see what's changed for you. You obviously had other reasons to play STFs, what was taken away from you? If anything, you should be happy. The people playing most STFs are more likely to want to be there. The grinders are just hitting ISE over and over. If you're having trouble getting a PUG in the queue, hit up one of the STF channels. I'm sure there are still plenty of people there who want to play.
/this
1000 times this
but i would prefer the cost for gear NOT being Dillithium, but the marks. Tons of them. Like you want veteran gear? Show it..
they could also leave some MKXII set parts dropping with the optional bag, with a very low chance. That way people would get at least SOMETHING for free and they would not AFK so much..
You said if you wear a ground set, you have something to show off, aka. in YOUR mind prestigious for a person to wear it.
So it's your words not an assumption.
And adding to that you clearly state you gave up until you found out there is now a cheap way to get back in, to buy your way out of playing ground missions. then you came back, so saying you really don't care doesn't go very far.
Like I said, yes you can buy it now, the cheap, lazy, cash, non real way BUT it will be without having earned it actually playing ground.
I think you should be rational enough to agree it's easier to play the same 200 maps on easy mode getting carried and throw down some cash for dil, than having to go solo cure ground elite, even a single time, am I wrong.
It takes actual twitch skill to beat those ground maps plain and simple, you can't make up for the lack of that by playing infected space elite 400 times, 1000 times or 10,000 times.
It's still the same level of ability you are using each run.
And now that's how it is, wearing a ground set today means absolutely nothing - regardless if you were able to talk me into believing what you personally felt, that's how it is.
Wearing a ground set is no longer proof you played ground and so they have no meaning.
People who wear ground sets now are no longer ground players and thus all of the sets are "plastic replicas" as I call them, which is a reference to the visa card you used but also mocks the whole "what are you made of soldier" respect era that is now dust.
And then lastly I asked the question, was it worth killing all of the game for, you getting NOW worthless sets you gave up on ?
Yes I know you don't get that, that's part of the whole question, how can you have so narrow a mind, to only care about your 1 pityful drop, to the point the whole server has to get shafted.
"I don't understand other people's situation", well that's probably the problem right there, you know...
Let the stupid suffer
I think you are trying to rationalize to yourself why you gave up on ground - doesn't really change anything for me what you tell yourself.
But, but, but you are overlooking the point in getting insulted over being a poor ground player.
I am not against you people have them at all, in fact the opposite; you could have my set drops and anyone else missing them or they could hand them out for free.
What I said was, there was no reason to kill the entire game just so you could have your drop.
If you REALLY did over 300 Elite STF then that means that you at least earned over 600 Encrypted Data Chips!!!
Maybe you failed acquiring the Mark XII Elite gear but you certainly could acquire for FREE every pieces of the Mark XI via converting EDC.
And lets not even start counting how many Mark XII brog weapons and other pieces of equipment and Dilithium boxes you did acquire with all the salvages you won over 300 run.
Face it. The new system is WAY less rewarding than the old one.
Of course, that's not going to happen anymore, why bother with normal when you can just jump into Elite and get carried to victory. No one with half a brain is going to waste time grinding out lower tir gear with normal's anymore.
Hardly a poor ground player. I dont like ground combat because its dull and feels more like a TRIBBLE knockoff of wow or everquest or any of the half dozen fantasy MMOs ive played. I like space combat more so thats where i spend my time. Even with the current system I'll convert my stuff to dilithium over getting ground gear because ground combat is dull.
Edit: good job on completely ducking the point though, which is your gear has no intrinsic value beyond its function. Anything else is simply perspective. If it makes you feel any better i dont value mk12 space stuff either except as being numerically better
Let the stupid suffer
Sorry, from some of your previous words I gathered you cared about the set costumes for bragging rights, if I was mistaken there, I apologise.
What I tried to explain was that I got my sense of accomplishment from, you know, accomplishing the mission. The drops were random, and therefore out of my control.
And sure some people get carried through missions by their fleet mates, but that has never bothered me.
I also suspect you misimagined my case, judging from your post. I have pugged all of my STF's as well, just like you (I'm in a 2-man fleet with an inactive friend Fed-side, fleetless on my KDF characters). And I am glad you too take the time to help new players out, and I know that can be hard, at times. It is exactly those kinds of run that gave me particular pleasure in finishing them too - regardless of whether I got lucky in the RNG that time.
I also still fail to see how the STF's are killed. They seemed to be doing ok, last time I checked.
tali9999's point, however, is one I agree on: the Borg weapon exchanges provided an excellent and cheap way to get a (new/alt) character with decent weapons. That option's lost, and that is definitely a pity.
I am a big time PUG STF lover and nowadays Ground Queues are totally dead. I sometimes get to join a Khitomer ground after waiting over 15 minutes but Cure and Infected? Forget it, no one is queueing for them anymore it seems because the carrot was removed and you get your shiny anyway for doing cheap space mission.
I came to love the ground STFs because it was the only challenging stuff STO had in store for players who wanted tactical ground combat. I like ruthless borgs and Elite Tactical Heavy Drones. And i liked getting my random loot bag as a reward for fighting the toughest stuff in the game.
Well, it was another era i guess. ISE pew pew is all whats left for STF PUGers.
Now, my take on existing costs:
XP projects are fine how they are.
Store unlock projects are probably OK. If anything they're too low considering you can then claim as many as you want afterward for only dilithium.
Single unlock "requisitions" may need to come down a bit. In a certain sense, it's balanced to the old way. 2 EDC per ESTF (maybe more), 20 EDC for a Mk. X req, 10 ESTFs for a Mk. X req. 50 OM per ESTF (maybe more), 500 OM for Mk X. req, 10 ESTFs for a Mk. X req. We've already put time in grinding up through the rep system, and there's a dilithium cost associated as well, so I think a discount is in order here. Maybe 10-20%.
If you had played ground, you would have known, or should have known, ground combat is in fact the most innovative part about sto (outside the f2p system) and it's actually space that is your "2D point and click zombie hotbar casting" knock-off wow and all the other classic rpgs.
One of the reason ground is hard is because it's what is called twitch combat, you have to evade and fire manually in full 3D, which is quite unique for a mmorpg.
And obviously quite a few 2D'ers aren't used to that and hate ground for it. And I think you are one of those.
About your edit I don't know what point you were refering to because if something is intrinsic it is in fact very much subjective, whereas its function would be extrinsic.
So by the point you say "anything else is perspective" I don't even know where you are going anymore.
"it is what it is" well that's not really saying a lot.
I don't have any problems with you getting every drop, EC or whatever in the entire game handed into your lap in 5 minutes for 2 cents.
All I asked was, was it really necessary to kill the entire game just so a few lazy people could get the ground sets.
Since it's basically down to people buying them with plastic diltihium now anyway - making them useless, why not simply put them on the c-store and leave stf alone...
No need, there were bragging involved just not anymore.
It killed stf for me personally and though I can't predict the future I'd say you might have people playing round now, temporay, like the people who are missing sets - but once they are done, then what ?
Whereas before you had people that were done who continued to play.
But sure it remains to be seen whether season 7 was good or bad regardless of what I personally think.
Check a poster a few posts before this one, he brings up some good points that were brought up even before season 7.
Removal of the restrospective drops takes away incentive to do anything but farm the same maps on easy mode over and over.
The topic is the price we pay which might be the ultimate one in the end. As in lost motivation to play because the reward is too little.
And ground sets new plastic replica status, no more unique drops, queue times, dil rate drop, slower fleet progress, etc. etc. all of that is the price of the stf store.
Part of that price, that it was done so people could get their ground drops.
We are losing a lot more than just a few 100's of thousands of dilithium here
I tend to agree the Mk10 & Mk11 gear is overpriced.
Don't get angry at people because they WON'T play archaic game systems that aren't fun. Just like SWTOR is filled with old MMO mechinics that sucked the first time around, Facebook mechanics of time and resource gates are also outdated and incongruous with a modern MMO.
Your opinion.
People hated the shield, thats why they ran around with the 2-3 piece sets.
So its okay for those who didn't get any Mk12 gear prior to S7, having to grind another 6-7 months on top of the 11 months they already invested in? :rolleyes:
That's the point of the thread!
Cryptic said this system was to HELP those people, which makes what they said a major LIE! It didn't help those people, it kicked them in the groin and left them in the mud! Because it's making them wait a half a year to complete, and after a massive Dilithium price to pay as well.
mk XI is overpriced but mk XII which is +1 is not .
Again why should everyone had mk XII when most people rant about how stfs suck and dont want to play them.Why those who like and play them get the same thing others buy and bash all day on the forum?