Well the one good thing to come out of this is that Cryptic/PW have learned that there is indeed a line in the sand that even the most staunch STO supporter wont allow them to cross.
TRIBBLE off enough of your player base and watch your lockbox and zen store sales plummet as your player base go's elsewhere..........lets hope its a lesson they learn well for any upcoming seasons.
All too true.
___________________
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
Not to rain on the devs politeness parade, but Dan and the Devs were forewarned by forum vets well in advance-quite a few weeks in advance, in fact-of a forum ragefest. You knew it would happen, and yet you still complain about it.
I'm also a little amazed at Dan's reaction because the devs have always said that the forums constitute a small percentage of the player base. Well, guess what? The forums just got invaded by the people who don't usually come on them to give feedback on season 7, so in a strange way, you should be happy. People that never usually give feedback, gave it, and it was helpful because it gave Cryptic had a pretty good idea of what people wanted. It might be rude, but at least it gave you some insight into how season 7 was received. Take it or leave it, as they say.
I just would like to say that Cryptic do listen and what we need is provide them with constructive feedback, not shout and whine and threaten and badger!
Learn to provide solutions instead of just saying: ITS BROKEN! FIX IT!!! Need to tell the devs how exactly you want it fixed.
ST crowd supposed to be more mature, objective and coherent, i'm sure many of you arent 16 year olds.
So as Dan aptly put it: learn some manners!
Didn't your mother tell you that shouting at people isn't good manners? :P
I just would like to say that Cryptic do listen and what we need is provide them with constructive feedback, not shout and whine and threaten and badger!
Learn to provide solutions instead of just saying: ITS BROKEN! FIX IT!!! Need to tell the devs how exactly you want it fixed.
ST crowd supposed to be more mature, objective and coherent, i'm sure many of you arent 16 year olds.
So as Dan aptly put it: learn some manners!
you serious? Have you even read any of those threads by veteran players ? They not only described the problems ( even before they went live ) in great detail- complete with the math - but also described exactly what the effect would be of some of the plans . They outlined what needed to be done - also in great detail and with the math -and were subsequently completely ignored ( threads were even removed or moved from main discussion) .The fact of the matter is that only after Cryptic saw exactly just how mad folks were did they reverse - no other word for it - some of the "ideas " they implemented in Season 7 .They could have avoided the entire thing ....
That's all well and good to address half the point.
But if they 'love pvp' and 'want pvp to be great' so much, then why do they break it more with every patch?
Also, the devs of the game have demonstrated time and again that they have little to no clue how pvp works (or even in some cases basic game mechanics), beyond how the queue drags players into a map. So I highly doubt that many of them pvp on an even semi-regular basis, since Heretic left.
Maybe because loving it and wanting it to be great is not the same as working on making it great or it being a financial/business/strategic priority?
I agree some people in this game to need to learn some manners, and respect of others not just the devs and dan, (though they get the brunt of the rudeness) but to each other in the game too, I have witnessed far to many cursing and bullying going on in game, and treating fellow players like they are nothing. Everyone has the right not to be bullied. Respect in general is need.
Although I have learned though on the Internet Respect is from a bygone era it seems
I just would like to say that Cryptic do listen and what we need is provide them with constructive feedback, not shout and whine and threaten and badger!
Learn to provide solutions instead of just saying: ITS BROKEN! FIX IT!!! Need to tell the devs how exactly you want it fixed.
2) Lack of a retail service sensibility. As companies like Cryptic/PWE assume more retail control and involvement beyond standard product authorship/development, I think there are lessons to be learned from how retail and service employees operate. While we get a lot of insight into things, a downside can be that the communication we get isn't filtered or framed the way a retail service experience is.
Take some of Gozer, Geko, or Borticus' comments. They're very real and frank. I think they're great people but at the same time, I think a lot of customers would reasonably flip their gourd if a Wal-Mart or Applebee's manager talked the way some of the devs do. And, yes, artists and engineers traditionally do get more frank but this is also a retail operation and retail operations are not being dumb by filtering their comments and flattering their customers. As a retail service provider, you have to assume the best of your customers and trust them and budget ways of making them happy even when it's their fault, even when they curse you out, pretty much for anything shy of something you'd need to call the cops over.
And incorporating in monetization necessitates having more of a retail service approach, a polished service model that is engineered to soothe and satisfy irrate customers.
When you complain at Red Lobster, they don't boot you out. They buy you dessert. I'm highly skeptical of people who think that kind of approach is wrong. Yes, it gets abused. You budget around it getting abused though. Better to reward a few customers who are jerks than to let one legitimate gripe fester. The goal of being in business is not to dispense justice or to operate fairly but to use happiness and desire to coax sales.
As someone who works in the restaurant business, as an Assistant manager nonetheless, Let me offer some insight into the reciprocation of customer service.
YES! We are suppose to give you 150% of what you want back if you have a complaint. As a business model, it is best to quell complaints quickly before it leaves the store. If one choloate cake for free will keep a customer form spreading bad reviews about your establishment, so be it. It will be worth the cost in the long run in just return service.
However, we are still human, (well, I'm a Trill, but that is a different story ) We have feelings and don't take kindly to insults. None of us do. If you flag down your waitress and say "Excuse me, miss, but there is a fly in my soup, can I have another?" You are more likely to get "Sure, and while I am at, let me upgrade the cup of soup to a full bowl." Nice and simple, you point out a problem, offer a solution, and the company fixes it for you.
However, if you start off with saying "Hey *****, How ****ing hard is your job? I ask for a soup and you give me this ***ing tumble garnished with a fly, a ***ing FLY. What kind of low caliber service are you running? I should have excepted this from such a low brow place like this... I want a new soup, a free meal and deseert RIGHT NOW!!... What is taking so long? Are you busy smoking? I wanted a new soup 30 seconds ago! Where is it?"
Yeah... as soon as customer B opens his mouth... the Empathy centers in my brain shuts right off. :rolleyes:
Same thing towards the Devs. They are trying. They are listening. They are reading the post. And honestly, I am impressed with the speed they have fixed alot of the issues. Season 7 has been out for a little over a week, and they have already cut down timers on the rep system, lowered the requirements, reinstated Dilthium in STFs, fixed public queues, and have released a plan to fix the rest of the issues by the end of the month. Season 6 was broken for at LEAST a month before it was limping back to normal.
Bad mouthing them won't get you heard. In fact, it will most likely get you ignored.
Live on Earth. Work in Space. Play with Dragons. Join the best add on to STO, the Neverwinter holodeck program! Only 14 GPL a month.
There are days this whole forum makes me wanna break out a bottle of good old JD. Because if I'm drunk, I probably won't be able to read 90% of the posts.
However, if you start off with saying "Hey *****, How ****ing hard is your job? I ask for a soup and you give me this ***ing tumble garnished with a fly, a ***ing FLY. What kind of low caliber service are you running? I should have excepted this from such a low brow place like this... I want a new soup, a free meal and deseert RIGHT NOW!!... What is taking so long? Are you busy smoking? I wanted a new soup 30 seconds ago! Where is it?"
Yeah... as soon as customer B opens his mouth... the Empathy centers in my brain shuts right off. :rolleyes:
Bad mouthing them won't get you heard. In fact, it will most likely get you ignored.
As someone who use to work in a Coffee company with a mermaid that's everywhere...i will say when customers go on rants, the employees will add extra stuff in their beverage, on the house
As someone who use to work in a Coffee company with a mermaid that's everywhere...i will say when customers go on rants, the employees will add extra stuff in their beverage, on the house
Some guy once was being a real....come on, think of a PG rated term....TRIBBLE over wanting extra mustard and onions on their burger.
So they got it. Half a cup of mustard and a heaping handful of fresh slivered onions.
Maybe because loving it and wanting it to be great is not the same as working on making it great or it being a financial/business/strategic priority?
No, but it implies that some effort at least is put into not fracking it up so badly with every patch that people who like to pvp (easily pleased by the way, all we need is an arena and opponents, with some semblance of a level playing field) are actually leaving the game.
That was the pettiest part of his post. If he wanted to communicate in a mature and professional fashion he did not need to put that jab in there, as it brought him down to their level.
Exactly...it's extremely bad form to chide or insult your customers...no matter how great the sycophants think it is. I know people can be rude, but that doesn't change what's correct to do in a merchant customer environment.
Op do you realize the can of worms you just opened? I was in most of these threads against the way season 7 was at launch. Me I am blunt when someone screws up. I dont use caps, but I will use words that best describe the situation.
Putting that tibit in there about manners was not cool, and not to mention the fact the Klingons have got to be bouncing off the walls laughing at this guy. Given all the promises that have been made to kdf players, and very few have come to be. Hes telling the player base to have manners. Its just wow.
If he wants people stop being rude then things got to change. Its real simple you have a fan who loves star trek, but then you have cryptic/perfect world scheming to see how much money they can take from said fan. You know what op that makes people angry.
Ultimately this is why f2p fails, because in the end you end up paying more then a 15 buck sub, when the game starts charging for everything. Or puts in a system to get RL money like Dilithium. Opposed to wow just keeping a 15 buck sub and getting a whole heck of allot of content. I am no fan of games copying wow, as wow is its on IP, but holding to the sub was the smartest thing Blizzard ever did with that game. Part of the reason why subs did not work out in sto was bad management form the beginning with lifetime subs. You loose continued sustained income form someone the second they go lifetime sub.
It's interesting the comments on customer service and restaurants. Let me see...
a. Customer is brought food and notices there are some problems; customer points out problems politely and asks them to be fixed.
b. Food is brought out again. Problems have not been addressed. Customer is upset.
c. Customer once again points out problems with the food. Servers say nothing about problems with the food. Customer wonders why and what they are doing about it.
d. Customer is REALLY upset. Screams at servers. Servers finally notice customer is unhappy. Change the food, but not entirely to the customer's satisfaction.
What does customer do?
1. Learn some manners.
2. Eat it and shut up!
3. Get up and take their business and money elsewhere.
Does that about sum the situation up? I love analogies...
Some people need to learn that "the customer is always right" does NOT mean "the customer has license to treat the people that serve them worse than they would treat their pets".
Because sometimes you're the customer, and sometimes you're the servant. For those without tact, how would you treat you?
Thanks for your response, its really heartening to see 57 responses so far in a short 8 hours. This goes to show that many of us do care about this game and Star Trek.
Now, my apologies to be blunt and forthcoming in my OP because somehow i feel that level of bluntness would be needed to kickstart a discussion about this. And yes, i realize the can of worms i would be opening, i have actually intended for that.
I have been playing MMOs for a very long time (To list some of those MMOs I've played for a duration of > 6 months and have max level characters are: Asherons Call, Everquest, Asherons Call 2, Everquest 2, FFXI, GW, LOTRO, GW2, WoW, Warhammer Online) So I've seen plenty of behavioral issues plaguing many other MMOs out there and have witnessed first hand how bad players behavior literally brought down an MMO.
An MMO's success largely depends on community behavior and there's a delicate relationship between the playerbase and the developers. Not everything the developers do will make players happy, and sometimes the changes done irks players a lot (example here on how Turbine changed the way PVP was in AC2 that basically drove most of the mages out of the game). But, the issue there was the playerbase did not manage to resolve the issue with Turbine nicely and well the whole thing kinda imploded. See what happens to AC2 now? It no longer exist..
However, on the player side.. I also understand the frustrations we experience.. because we play an MMO to have fun, to be entertained, in a sense to get things easy.. But that doesn't mean that we still can't be civil and polite. We don't need to call developers names, insulting producers and well generally being ill-blooded.
Also, on requesting changes - it greatly helps to inform the developers what you want in actionable steps. Not just "torpedo, full spread" approach where you just demand fixes but yourselves don't know what fixes you want.
Be specific in your requests: I want rep timers reduced from 40 hrs to 20 hrs, I want dilithium requirements reduced 30% or removed completely... and justify why you want it so.
Imagine the devs sifting through forums trying to find out players feedback (Yes, i am that naive to think that devs care about the forums) but to only find insults, name calling.. Just think of it for a second, how would you feel if you're in their shoes?
I'm not suggesting that we can't protest or wage a demonstration and demand changes for a season gone bad. But what I'm asking is do it nicely and provide constructive feedback.
I love this game and I love Trek, but somehow i feel disgusted at some of the posts in the forums, seemingly brazen and unaware that our behaviour in the forums reflects that within the game? Imagine, new players checking the forums and found to their horror the kind of community they will be immersing themselves into. Remember, no new players, game shuts down very quickly.
Gene R envisions a universe where different alien species works together in harmony and resolve everything diplomatically. Never in his philosophy: Shoot first and ask questions later.
I just would like to say that Cryptic do listen and what we need is provide them with constructive feedback, not shout and whine and threaten and badger!
Learn to provide solutions instead of just saying: ITS BROKEN! FIX IT!!! Need to tell the devs how exactly you want it fixed.
ST crowd supposed to be more mature, objective and coherent, i'm sure many of you arent 16 year olds.
So as Dan aptly put it: learn some manners!
While i am not a fan of direct attacks against individuals, Cryptic as a company gets the flames they deserve.
What lots of the new people around STO forget, is that there are people on these forums that have given constructive critisim for over 3years, and have been ignored time and again.
Cryptic tends to "Listen" when the flames on the forums carry over onto other social media, until then, they try to get away with whatever they can, whenever they can.
This game would never have gone F2P/P2W if they had honestly listened to their playerbase, and in good faith kept the same informed and involved.
Instead Cryptic has time and again, abused this IP in the sole name of profits at all cost. A single example would be the introduction of the CSTORE. When it launched around month 3, Cryptic PROMISED the playerbase, that all items would be available through in game means, and that the profits from the micro transactions would go to hiring more Dev's, so we could get more content. Well that promise took over 2 years to see any fruit.
Again, i don't condone personal attacks, but the company gets what it deserves.
Imagine the devs sifting through forums trying to find out players feedback (Yes, i am that naive to think that devs care about the forums) but to only find insults, name calling.. Just think of it for a second, how would you feel if you're in their shoes?"
Comments
Someone Gets it!
All too true.
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
I'm also a little amazed at Dan's reaction because the devs have always said that the forums constitute a small percentage of the player base. Well, guess what? The forums just got invaded by the people who don't usually come on them to give feedback on season 7, so in a strange way, you should be happy. People that never usually give feedback, gave it, and it was helpful because it gave Cryptic had a pretty good idea of what people wanted. It might be rude, but at least it gave you some insight into how season 7 was received. Take it or leave it, as they say.
Didn't your mother tell you that shouting at people isn't good manners? :P
Recalling the "Sarcastic Venom Award" he handed me still makes me grin...
you serious? Have you even read any of those threads by veteran players ? They not only described the problems ( even before they went live ) in great detail- complete with the math - but also described exactly what the effect would be of some of the plans . They outlined what needed to be done - also in great detail and with the math -and were subsequently completely ignored ( threads were even removed or moved from main discussion) .The fact of the matter is that only after Cryptic saw exactly just how mad folks were did they reverse - no other word for it - some of the "ideas " they implemented in Season 7 .They could have avoided the entire thing ....
Is it appropriate to discuss alcohol in a forum made up primarily of 5th graders? j/k
I was drinking beer the other day and thinking about aliens with kitty tails....no, nevermind.
Maybe because loving it and wanting it to be great is not the same as working on making it great or it being a financial/business/strategic priority?
If people on the forums were nice, I would not have anything to read in the bathroom.
I'm waiting for when STO closes and the Dev's just snap and go all Sam Kinison on everyone.
Although I have learned though on the Internet Respect is from a bygone era it seems
Commanding Officer USS Frontenac
Commanding Officer Enterprise NX-01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=-WmGvYDLsj4 That all I got to day lol
I spent hours, not a few minutes doing this.
It angered me to be told I was aberrant when the devs created the pressure that caused
me to make alts.
I still don't understand them wanting to help me get dil by cutting my income per hour by 50%.
How do i discuss this politely?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moX3z2RJAV8
the op needs to learn manners
As someone who works in the restaurant business, as an Assistant manager nonetheless, Let me offer some insight into the reciprocation of customer service.
YES! We are suppose to give you 150% of what you want back if you have a complaint. As a business model, it is best to quell complaints quickly before it leaves the store. If one choloate cake for free will keep a customer form spreading bad reviews about your establishment, so be it. It will be worth the cost in the long run in just return service.
However, we are still human, (well, I'm a Trill, but that is a different story
However, if you start off with saying "Hey *****, How ****ing hard is your job? I ask for a soup and you give me this ***ing tumble garnished with a fly, a ***ing FLY. What kind of low caliber service are you running? I should have excepted this from such a low brow place like this... I want a new soup, a free meal and deseert RIGHT NOW!!... What is taking so long? Are you busy smoking? I wanted a new soup 30 seconds ago! Where is it?"
Yeah... as soon as customer B opens his mouth... the Empathy centers in my brain shuts right off. :rolleyes:
Same thing towards the Devs. They are trying. They are listening. They are reading the post. And honestly, I am impressed with the speed they have fixed alot of the issues. Season 7 has been out for a little over a week, and they have already cut down timers on the rep system, lowered the requirements, reinstated Dilthium in STFs, fixed public queues, and have released a plan to fix the rest of the issues by the end of the month. Season 6 was broken for at LEAST a month before it was limping back to normal.
Bad mouthing them won't get you heard. In fact, it will most likely get you ignored.
There are days this whole forum makes me wanna break out a bottle of good old JD. Because if I'm drunk, I probably won't be able to read 90% of the posts.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
As someone who use to work in a Coffee company with a mermaid that's everywhere...i will say when customers go on rants, the employees will add extra stuff in their beverage, on the house
Some guy once was being a real....come on, think of a PG rated term....TRIBBLE over wanting extra mustard and onions on their burger.
So they got it. Half a cup of mustard and a heaping handful of fresh slivered onions.
Well, the customer is always right, aren't they?
ROLL TIDE ROLL
No, but it implies that some effort at least is put into not fracking it up so badly with every patch that people who like to pvp (easily pleased by the way, all we need is an arena and opponents, with some semblance of a level playing field) are actually leaving the game.
Exactly...it's extremely bad form to chide or insult your customers...no matter how great the sycophants think it is. I know people can be rude, but that doesn't change what's correct to do in a merchant customer environment.
Putting that tibit in there about manners was not cool, and not to mention the fact the Klingons have got to be bouncing off the walls laughing at this guy. Given all the promises that have been made to kdf players, and very few have come to be. Hes telling the player base to have manners. Its just wow.
If he wants people stop being rude then things got to change. Its real simple you have a fan who loves star trek, but then you have cryptic/perfect world scheming to see how much money they can take from said fan. You know what op that makes people angry.
Ultimately this is why f2p fails, because in the end you end up paying more then a 15 buck sub, when the game starts charging for everything. Or puts in a system to get RL money like Dilithium. Opposed to wow just keeping a 15 buck sub and getting a whole heck of allot of content. I am no fan of games copying wow, as wow is its on IP, but holding to the sub was the smartest thing Blizzard ever did with that game. Part of the reason why subs did not work out in sto was bad management form the beginning with lifetime subs. You loose continued sustained income form someone the second they go lifetime sub.
This is all I am going to say on that subject.
a. Customer is brought food and notices there are some problems; customer points out problems politely and asks them to be fixed.
b. Food is brought out again. Problems have not been addressed. Customer is upset.
c. Customer once again points out problems with the food. Servers say nothing about problems with the food. Customer wonders why and what they are doing about it.
d. Customer is REALLY upset. Screams at servers. Servers finally notice customer is unhappy. Change the food, but not entirely to the customer's satisfaction.
What does customer do?
1. Learn some manners.
2. Eat it and shut up!
3. Get up and take their business and money elsewhere.
Does that about sum the situation up? I love analogies...
Because sometimes you're the customer, and sometimes you're the servant. For those without tact, how would you treat you?
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Now, my apologies to be blunt and forthcoming in my OP because somehow i feel that level of bluntness would be needed to kickstart a discussion about this. And yes, i realize the can of worms i would be opening, i have actually intended for that.
I have been playing MMOs for a very long time (To list some of those MMOs I've played for a duration of > 6 months and have max level characters are: Asherons Call, Everquest, Asherons Call 2, Everquest 2, FFXI, GW, LOTRO, GW2, WoW, Warhammer Online) So I've seen plenty of behavioral issues plaguing many other MMOs out there and have witnessed first hand how bad players behavior literally brought down an MMO.
An MMO's success largely depends on community behavior and there's a delicate relationship between the playerbase and the developers. Not everything the developers do will make players happy, and sometimes the changes done irks players a lot (example here on how Turbine changed the way PVP was in AC2 that basically drove most of the mages out of the game). But, the issue there was the playerbase did not manage to resolve the issue with Turbine nicely and well the whole thing kinda imploded. See what happens to AC2 now? It no longer exist..
However, on the player side.. I also understand the frustrations we experience.. because we play an MMO to have fun, to be entertained, in a sense to get things easy.. But that doesn't mean that we still can't be civil and polite. We don't need to call developers names, insulting producers and well generally being ill-blooded.
Also, on requesting changes - it greatly helps to inform the developers what you want in actionable steps. Not just "torpedo, full spread" approach where you just demand fixes but yourselves don't know what fixes you want.
Be specific in your requests: I want rep timers reduced from 40 hrs to 20 hrs, I want dilithium requirements reduced 30% or removed completely... and justify why you want it so.
Imagine the devs sifting through forums trying to find out players feedback (Yes, i am that naive to think that devs care about the forums) but to only find insults, name calling.. Just think of it for a second, how would you feel if you're in their shoes?
I'm not suggesting that we can't protest or wage a demonstration and demand changes for a season gone bad. But what I'm asking is do it nicely and provide constructive feedback.
I love this game and I love Trek, but somehow i feel disgusted at some of the posts in the forums, seemingly brazen and unaware that our behaviour in the forums reflects that within the game? Imagine, new players checking the forums and found to their horror the kind of community they will be immersing themselves into. Remember, no new players, game shuts down very quickly.
Gene R envisions a universe where different alien species works together in harmony and resolve everything diplomatically. Never in his philosophy: Shoot first and ask questions later.
"You can never shake hands with a clenched fist"
While i am not a fan of direct attacks against individuals, Cryptic as a company gets the flames they deserve.
What lots of the new people around STO forget, is that there are people on these forums that have given constructive critisim for over 3years, and have been ignored time and again.
Cryptic tends to "Listen" when the flames on the forums carry over onto other social media, until then, they try to get away with whatever they can, whenever they can.
This game would never have gone F2P/P2W if they had honestly listened to their playerbase, and in good faith kept the same informed and involved.
Instead Cryptic has time and again, abused this IP in the sole name of profits at all cost. A single example would be the introduction of the CSTORE. When it launched around month 3, Cryptic PROMISED the playerbase, that all items would be available through in game means, and that the profits from the micro transactions would go to hiring more Dev's, so we could get more content. Well that promise took over 2 years to see any fruit.
Again, i don't condone personal attacks, but the company gets what it deserves.
Just my 2 cents
Were you picked on a lot in school?