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New Omega Adapted Set, the [DMG] Modifier & [DMG] Mod in general.
ussultimatum
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
This question is for any dev willing to answer.
The new Omega Adapted Set cutting beam & torpedo both have multiple [DMG] modifiers on them (x3 and x2 respectively)
The Fleet weapons all have [DMG]x3.
Many dilithium store & crafted items have [DMG] modifier or [DMG]x2.
The Vesta Aux DHC also has [DMG]x2 modifiers.
It is also largely considered the worst possible modifier.
I'm not sure if that's 100% accurate for PvE content (it's certainly not as good as multiple CrtH or CrtD modifiers), but it's true for PvP certainly.
It's also, as modifiers go, pretty boring.
Why do we continue to see [DMG] modifier, and in many cases [DMG] x2 or x3 added to all kinds of new weapons?
Is it intended for these weapons to be mediocre by design, as a stepping stone towards getting weapons off the exchange or lucky drops?
Or do the devs have some other reason they consider [DMG] to be more valuable than the playerbase does?
The new Omega Adapted Set cutting beam & torpedo both have multiple [DMG] modifiers on them (x3 and x2 respectively)
The Fleet weapons all have [DMG]x3.
Many dilithium store & crafted items have [DMG] modifier or [DMG]x2.
The Vesta Aux DHC also has [DMG]x2 modifiers.
It is also largely considered the worst possible modifier.
I'm not sure if that's 100% accurate for PvE content (it's certainly not as good as multiple CrtH or CrtD modifiers), but it's true for PvP certainly.
It's also, as modifiers go, pretty boring.
Why do we continue to see [DMG] modifier, and in many cases [DMG] x2 or x3 added to all kinds of new weapons?
Is it intended for these weapons to be mediocre by design, as a stepping stone towards getting weapons off the exchange or lucky drops?
Or do the devs have some other reason they consider [DMG] to be more valuable than the playerbase does?
Post edited by ussultimatum on
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Except it's being, or has previously been, added to nearly every endgame weapon available.
* Omega Adapted set weapons
* Fleet weapons
* Dilithium store weapons
* Crafted weapons
* Ship specific weapons such as Spiral Wave Disruptors & Aux DHCs
If you're unable to attain any of those, you are also probably unable to attain anything top end from the exchange as well.
That also does not answer my question because it's purely speculation on your part and mine. Without a direct developer comment, neither of us will ever really know the design intent.
Its fuel for the power creep thats all. And thats a bad thing.
Everyone seems to think that [acc] are the best because when you're maxed out in accuracy, they give you more critical procs, which will increase your DPS more than a sustained [dmg] modifier - but when I've been testing out new weapons setups and examing my battle log afterwards, [dmg]x3[crtD] fleet weapons have outperformed [dmg]x3[acc] weapons when specced for crits.
[dmg]x3 also outperforms [acc]x2 [dmg] weapons when you're specced for energy crits, it had a higher DPS over a 10-minute run.
Not to mention that fleet weapons easily outperform borg weapons!
Basically, I want to see some numbers and hard evidence that shows me that dmg is a poor modifier - because as of right now I simply don't believe it and I'm content to think it's just an urban legend of the forums.
Kirk's Protege.
ACC and ACC overflow are generally poorly understood by most players.
However, ACC is very important in PvP as you can often deal with high defense targets.
For PvE however, CrtH (higher sustained improvement) and CrtD (higher burst) are both generally better than both DMG and ACC.
Yes, it doesn't scale at all which is one of the main issues with it.
But such changes will not arrive in time for Season 7 launch.
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Interesting, thanks for the info Bort.
For torps, to me Acc CritHx2 'feels' more appropriate, because I don't have projectile weapons spec.
But when I have full targeting and every single energy weapon skill specced to full, what modifiers should I bring? What's the evidence base for Accx3 in pve, versus another set of mods? Anyone crunched the numbers?
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Additive Modifiers, these are not effected by anything else and provide a flat addition to the base. The base is the weapon's damage itself which is determined by its mark level and rarity. Note that a Mk 10 white will get the same exact numeric bonus from these modifiers.
Weapon [Dmg] Mods
Console Bonus Damage
Skill Bonus Damage
Miscellaneous (accolades, etc)
Then you have your Multiplicative Modifiers. These are applied to the total of the above.
Crit Modifier (Crit Chance * Crit Severity so 5% chance at 100% severity would be a 1.05 modifier)
Boff Abilities (attack pattern omega, emergency power to weapons, etc)
Miscellaneous (energy levels, etc)
In addition [acc] is never wasted as extra accuracy translates into extra critical chance and severity. So what ends up happening is that the additive modifiers do not scale as quickly as a multiplicative modifiers do and when you get to the higher numbers they become much less desirable. *2 tends to make a larger number than +2 simple put.
So lets use a hypothetical example. Weapon does 1,000 damage per volley. You miss one out of every ten attacks. Your crit chance/severity are at base 5% and 50%. Your options are to increase the damage by 10 additively [Dmg], reduce miss quantity in half [Acc], or increase crit severity by 20% [CritD?].
[Dmg] Mod would give you (1,000 + 10) * 1.025 crit modifier * .9 accuracy modifier or an average of 932 damage per volley.
[Acc] mod 1,000 * 1.025 * .95 = 974 average damage per volley.
[CritD] mod 1,000 * 1.035 * .9 = 932 damage per volley.
So as you can see the [acc] mod wins out in that comparison because of how it is a multiplier. It does get really complex though because there will be a point when increasing the base with an additive modifier will be better than increasing the multiplier as you only increase the multiplier additively so it is no where near as cut and dry as most would like it to be sadly.
Actually all of the Advanced fleet weapons have [DMG]x3 and one additional ability, however, the Elite fleet weapons have [DMG]x2 and 2 additional abilities. It still sucks, and I agree otherwise, I was just letting you know that you'll be able to look forward to slightly better fleet weapons as your fleet progresses.
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It may sound strange but looking at the effectiveness of Dmg on different weapons, it almost seems like the current philosophy behind it would be retained and improved by replacing Dmg with a haste proc.
Dmg seems to do more already for high damage, high speed weapons. The lower the damage or the speed, the less effective it is. A Haste modifier would accomplish much the same effect but would be much less limited in scope and more on par with other weapons mods by virtue of scaling more and scaling with multiples of itself more. Not excessively so but closer in scope to what CritD, CritH, etc. do.
I've seen similar things in other RPGs.
It just seems like the natural tendency is for CritH, CritD, Hit, and Haste to be the best kinds of stats outside of exotic procs (which one is best tends to be build determined)... and for Dmg to be less desired unless it's numerically quite pronounced.
One thing I do think holds STO back is that modifiers affect individual weapons rather than affecting all weapons. Consequently, players never get capped in one stat from a few pieces of gear and move on to the next best stat for their build.
Games where a person could get Hit/Accuracy capped from 4 gear items cause people to make more diverse choices on their next 4 gear items. Whereas with stats being per item in STO, the best stats for any one slot end up being the best stat for all slots, since weapons do not benefit from eachother's stats. If one wants to focus on getting hitcapped here, they need to gear for hit on every item.
I'm sure Cryptic knows all of this but I thought maybe it would bear repeating since I'm sure they probably get into more advanced topics that may leave behind these basic kind of ideas sometimes.
If you are talking about the ground set and all there are some key factors. Most players don't understand its a set meant to be used as a teamwork function so both factions can get it. They do not see anything other than it adapting quickly but also that players will go after things that benefit their character only before something like the omega set that only is better once the whole team has it.
Getting 5 people together that will actually use it is easier said than done. The only logical course would be to make it some what not adapt as quick or putting something in that instead of the remodulator putting in something that high procs when wearing the full set that auto remodulates it. The current setup is flawed in the fact that no one gets the omega set when looking at the whole player base unless they are just out to collect collectors items or a costume other than that based on those facts it would need to be changed to be more meaningful to use.
Just to let you know, almost everyone in my fleet thinks that the Elite Fleet Weapons are worse than the Advanced ones, all because of the stacks of [Dmg] mods on them. If Fleet weapons are supposed to be some of the best in the game, giving them mods such as [CritH], [CritD], and most importantly, [Acc] would bring them in line with their intended performance values in the eyes of the players.
This also goes for the Quad Cannons, which are NOT the best cannons in the game due to the [Dmg]x4 mod on them. Why not just up the base DPS and then give it different mods, like [Acc]? If something's supposed to be the best, why not use the best mods?
Because I could see CritH and CrtD being more useful on Kinetic based weapons, like Torps and Mines. And Acc Weapons being useful on DBB and obviously currently DHCs.
This also begs the question, in PVP, vs the Borg.. which weapon would benifit the most from [Borg] Weapons..? (I know another question for another thread)
Think about this:
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It's still worse than either CrtH or CrtD for PvE.
How do you figure this?
In a way, that's what it does now.
It grants a much lower (percentage-wise) DPS bonus the more damage your weapon does.
Which only adds to it not being very good.
Those ships are supposed to be the most effective ships at dealing damage.
Just as Cruisers are supposed to be the most effective at mitigation and healing, and Sci ships are supposed to be the most effective at CC/Debuffs (and healing)
The problem is not with those ships, or their weapons.
The problem is the game environment which favors damage and does not require healing, CC or tanking.
While I haven't played it yet, Onslaught seems to be a step in the right direction to create a role-space for ships like Cruisers and Sci.
Or change the DMG modifier to something noticeable.
It is not quite that simple. It is not always worse it depends.
And the only guns in the game that will outperform the fleet weapons are [acc] x3 and only if it would increase your hit chance over the fleet [acc] guns. I have done the math for that one before already and it is a simple fact.
To add some math fleet weapons [Dmg] x3 [Acc] vs [Acc] [CritD] [CritH]
The Toon
Has maxed Weapons Training and Energy Weapons, 6 in Energy Specialization. Also, borg console is used in these maths.
The Gear (All Dual Beam Banks) no consoles 123 weapon power
Mk 12 Fleet [Dmg]x3, [Acc] 1108.7 DPV
Mk 12 [CritD], [Acc], [CritH] 1044.7 DPV
Base Crit Chance = 7.62%, Base Severity = 80.4
Average DPV /w Crits
Mk 12 Fleet = 1176.7
Mk 12 [CritD], [Acc], [CritH] = 1145.6 9.66
Adding Blue Mk 11 consoles adds 84 damage to all 3 guns. First will be with 2, second 4.
Mk 12 Fleet = 1355 / 1533.2
Mk 12 STF = 1329.8 / 1514.1
I could compare a strait up [Dmg] x3 instead but do not own one. The way the math works makes [Acc] the ONLY highly desirable modifier because of how important it is to hit your target. Crit vs Dmg is very close that it does not really need changed aside from if it is indeed bugged not to work with boff abilities. And that would be a bug.
Its pretty simple, the higher your modifiers get the more valuable a higher base value becomes and vice a verse.
In PvP [ACC] is king, but outside of that it's rather useless. Yes there's the overflow which will increase the number and damage of crits, but it's a very small increase. Without ACC in PvP you might as well unequip your weapons when facing a half decent escort (or even a cruiser), since hardly any of your shots will connect with the target.
[CrtD] and [CrtH] are great for high damage dealing or burst damage weapons, such as torpedos, dual heavy cannons (not so much dual cannons) and dual beam banks. With the right CrtD/CrtH mods a dual heavy cannon criting will do more damage then a torp, sometimes quite a bit more.
[Dmg] mods are however beneficial to low damage dealing weapons with a high firing rate, such as turrets and cannons. It's no big deal if these crit, but an increased sustained damage is a big plus.
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You didn't compare vs. MK XII [CrtH] x3 & MK XII [CrtD] x3, which would be a much better comparison.
Stacking multiple CrtH chances should still see a generally higher overall average increase.
Even if what you're saying is true, we are still stuck with the problem that all fleet weapons and many dilithium store weapons are either saddled with multiple DMG mods making them subpar choices for anything but the weakest weapons or they have a handful of scattered mods which is significantly less desirable than 3 of the same mod (ACC, CrtH, CrtD) stacked.
Cause that stuff is for PvE
A blue {Ship Weapon} Mk (N) [Dmg]x2 = A White {Ship Weapon} Mk (N+1)
So:
Antiproton Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X [Dmg]x2 = Antiproton Dual Heavy Cannons Mk XI
Disruptor Beam Array Mk VIII [Dmg]x2 = Disruptor Beam Array Mk IX
Tricobalt Torpedo Launcher Mk XI [Dmg]x2 = Tricobalt Torpedo Launcher Mk XII
And so on...at least according to my research and simple arithmetic. Furthermore, I thought I should add this to deepen an informed discussion, rather than pick one side or the other
No it wouldn't be as they would still be worse. It all comes down to ratios mate. The [Dmg] Mod increases the base damage by a FLAT number, the [CritH] Mod increases the critical multiplier by a FLAT number. So the only question left is what is the optimum ratio to get the largest final number.
Cryptic has made one part of that easy on us, since with items 1% crit chance has the same 'cost' as 10% crit severity you want to keep a ratio of 1 crit chance to 10 crit damage for optimum results. IE if you have 10% chance to crit and only 50% severity you will have a better overall DPS gain from 20% severity increase than you would a 2% crit chance increase.
In my previous comparison if I replaced the weapon with a [CritD] x3
Standard Average Volley /w Crit: 1156.5
/w Crit & 4 consoles: 1528.4
So the fleet weapon still does MORE average damage and in addition has accuracy. I do not personally know how much damage the [Dmg] mod adds exactly but it really is splitting hairs on it being a horrible mod. Using my example ship with the 4 consoles on, his skill set and the dual beams a weapon with [CritD]x2 Mod for a [Dmg] Mod to be better than a third [CritD] mod it would need to add 31.2 damage to the weapon. It is all relative and has to do with ratios.
And I would ask that if you wish to continue to argue this point with me that you show some math to back up your position. This [Dmg] is an aweful mod idea is simply not true. The only mod that needs a balance pass is the [Acc] mod and that has more to do with the flawed accuracy vs defense mechanics than it does with weapons.
@spessmehreen: Do you have the weapon damage formula by any chance?
*edit*
Just to clarify my position in case I'm being vague.
The actual difference in overall DPS gain from any of the weapon mods be it [Crit] or [Dmg] are so close to the same that it doesn't really matter which one you go for. The only weapon mod that is an exception is the [Acc] mod because of how the 'to hit' roll works and the importance of it. The only other exception is, and I do not personally know but it has been claimed, that torpedo skills are bugged and do not take the [Dmg] mod into account but that would be a bug.
When you say "sweeping changes" it smells of nerf. No offense.
Really, "sweeping changes" aren't needed; a simply buff to the [DMG] modifier would be decent, because constantly using it as the go-to modifier is weak.