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What I think Fed cruisers need.
fulleatherjacket
Member Posts: 980 Arc User
Yep, it's that time again for yet another cruiser thread. But I've been thinking about the complaints some players keep making and I want to add my own suggestion for a buff that I think Fed cruisers need.
Now reasonable people can disagree with my ideas, but even after the Borg set nerf and all the other changes that will make escorts slightly less tanky (and players will find new flavour of the month setups to make them more tanky again), I still say Fed cruisers need some love.
So here goes:
Changes affecting all ships
1. Increase the base damage of all beam arrays by 6%. For example, I believe advanced fleet beam arrays do 245 damage each, before modifiers. I'm suggesting that they be buffed to do 260 damage. I had considered suggesting a 10% buff, which would put those arrays at 270 damage each, but I assumed people would scream that it would be too high an increase, hence a compromise.
2. Increase all cruiser turn rates by one point. Just one. We really only need one. Then we'd have Assault and Star cruisers turning like Excelsiors, Excelsiors would turn almost as quickly as a Galor or Vor'cha without equalling them. And of course, Exploration cruisers and Odyssey cruisers (and the Bortasqu) would turn like Assault and Star cruisers do now. Fed cruisers would still feel like cruisers, they wouldn't step on KDF toes, nor would they suddenly become overpowered by this change. They would however, become slightly more nimble and slightly reduce that space whale feeling most Fed cruiser captains are sick of.
Changes affecting specific ships
1. Give the Fleet Star cruiser the kind of boff layout the Fleet Assault cruiser will have, if they ever put it back in the game:
Cmdr Engineering
Lt. Engineering
Lt. Cmdr Science
Ensign. Science
Lt. Universal
This one is no-brainer. Let's be honest here: three low level science powers are only good for tanking yourself. They are useless as offensive abilities, and thus the Fleet Star cruiser is just another superfluous tank ship, like the Assault cruiser is another superfluous combat ship which justified the creation of the Regent after so much rage at the Excelsior. Next to the Fleet Exploration cruiser, the Fleet Star cruiser is the other useless pile of garbage cruiser. It has nothing going for it compared to dedicated science ships or cruisers that do a better job in combat.
2. Give the Fleet Exploration cruiser a universal ensign. Yes, that argument again. If there's one thing this ship sorely needs, it's to be given at least one more officer who doesn't have to be an engineer. This is not an enormous change. This is not a gamebreaking change. But this is a Tier four Fleet ship we're talking about. It deserves to have something going for it to justify the cost of attaining it.
Do I have to invoke Wesley Crusher to justify this suggestion? Because I will. See that? Three bands on his uniform, representing all three departments. He is a universal ensign. Give this ship a universal ensign in kind.
3. Double the zen price of the Galaxy Dreadnought, give it a fourth tactical console, and give it two tactical lieutenants and a science ensign.
Honestly, this ship is never going to get a fleet version due to the phaser lance. Yet people still want it up to par with them. So do this as a compromise, but don't make its tactical boffs the same as the Regent or Excelsior. That would make other combat cruisers obsolete. Just make it better but different, and increase the cost because everyone will probably want one.
Now reasonable people can disagree with my ideas, but even after the Borg set nerf and all the other changes that will make escorts slightly less tanky (and players will find new flavour of the month setups to make them more tanky again), I still say Fed cruisers need some love.
So here goes:
Changes affecting all ships
1. Increase the base damage of all beam arrays by 6%. For example, I believe advanced fleet beam arrays do 245 damage each, before modifiers. I'm suggesting that they be buffed to do 260 damage. I had considered suggesting a 10% buff, which would put those arrays at 270 damage each, but I assumed people would scream that it would be too high an increase, hence a compromise.
2. Increase all cruiser turn rates by one point. Just one. We really only need one. Then we'd have Assault and Star cruisers turning like Excelsiors, Excelsiors would turn almost as quickly as a Galor or Vor'cha without equalling them. And of course, Exploration cruisers and Odyssey cruisers (and the Bortasqu) would turn like Assault and Star cruisers do now. Fed cruisers would still feel like cruisers, they wouldn't step on KDF toes, nor would they suddenly become overpowered by this change. They would however, become slightly more nimble and slightly reduce that space whale feeling most Fed cruiser captains are sick of.
Changes affecting specific ships
1. Give the Fleet Star cruiser the kind of boff layout the Fleet Assault cruiser will have, if they ever put it back in the game:
Cmdr Engineering
Lt. Engineering
Lt. Cmdr Science
Ensign. Science
Lt. Universal
This one is no-brainer. Let's be honest here: three low level science powers are only good for tanking yourself. They are useless as offensive abilities, and thus the Fleet Star cruiser is just another superfluous tank ship, like the Assault cruiser is another superfluous combat ship which justified the creation of the Regent after so much rage at the Excelsior. Next to the Fleet Exploration cruiser, the Fleet Star cruiser is the other useless pile of garbage cruiser. It has nothing going for it compared to dedicated science ships or cruisers that do a better job in combat.
2. Give the Fleet Exploration cruiser a universal ensign. Yes, that argument again. If there's one thing this ship sorely needs, it's to be given at least one more officer who doesn't have to be an engineer. This is not an enormous change. This is not a gamebreaking change. But this is a Tier four Fleet ship we're talking about. It deserves to have something going for it to justify the cost of attaining it.
Do I have to invoke Wesley Crusher to justify this suggestion? Because I will. See that? Three bands on his uniform, representing all three departments. He is a universal ensign. Give this ship a universal ensign in kind.
3. Double the zen price of the Galaxy Dreadnought, give it a fourth tactical console, and give it two tactical lieutenants and a science ensign.
Honestly, this ship is never going to get a fleet version due to the phaser lance. Yet people still want it up to par with them. So do this as a compromise, but don't make its tactical boffs the same as the Regent or Excelsior. That would make other combat cruisers obsolete. Just make it better but different, and increase the cost because everyone will probably want one.
Post edited by fulleatherjacket on
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At present with my tac based Excelsior I max out at about 2.5k so I'd estimate getting to 3-3.25 maybe with an extra 10% base... however it would increase the number of tac cruisers in game and would increase the effectiveness of most engineer based cruisers for the current content which is something a lot of people would appreciate
Particularly though, the fleet Star Cruiser.
I have one of these myself, and certainly would love a different flavor of cruiser. In fact, I mentioned on a thread a few days ago about the Federation only needing one more 'flavor' to fill our their ranks completely: A Cruiser with a Lt. Cmdr science.
I'd love for that to happen.
Anyways, back on topic. Your suggestions are interesting, but I would propose that you give cruisers +2 instead of just +1. You are correct, only having 1 would be enough, but I would prefer 2, and then a +1 to KDF BCs, that would give everyone a nice boost without making escorts cry foul.
As for your proposed BOff changes, I have a counter-proposal. Instead of modifying the Fl. Star Cruiser, why not just go with the alternate, and GIVE US BACK OUR Fl. Assault Cruiser. I would pay ZEN, ZEN mind you, for the FSMs to get that ship. You guys can even quote me on that and hold me to it. Give us back the Imperial-Class Fleet Assault Cruiser. I love my sovy. It has handles quite well and can do a nice bit of slappage. The only problem is that it's a 9 console ship. I really wouldn't mind a
4/4/2 console cruiser with a
LtCmdr Tac
Ensign Tac
Cmdr Engi
Lt Engi
Lt Sci
BOff setup.
Also give it the same hull and shield mod as the Fl. Star Cruiser, and you're set.
As for the Galaxy-R change, all I have to say is... GOOD LORD PLEASE JUST DO IT ALREADY. -.- And while you're at it (not being sarcastic) give the Fl Tac Escort-R a uni ensign instead of that superfluous extra tac ensign.
As for the changes to the Galaxy-X, putting aside my dislike for that ship, I think the zen cost x2 might be a little over the top, but the minor changes to the consoles I can approve of. Maybe increase it's cost by 500 zen, a small 20% increase. As for the BOff changes, i agree, for a combat cruiser (yeah, it's probably the only one that's actually a COMBAT cruiser) it's still a little engi heavy.
That's my input.
Layout,it's still a heal boat and a lot of cruiser
Skippers don't want another heal boat .
I would propose
Cmdr Uni
LT Cmdr Eng
LT Cmdr Sci
LT Tac
Consoles
3 Tac
5 Eng
2 Sci
This layout would allow a player to take a
Healboat
Crowd control ship
Firepower
Into what ever battle his or her team needed
Making it a true multi purpose ship I'n reality
And not I'n talk
Tac ships are still better at Dps
Sci is still better at crowd control
The ship is still slow and turns even slower
And it would sell BIG. $$$$$$$$
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I don't like what you proposed at all. Don't take this the wrong way, but there is no reason at all to have 5 engi consoles. Not with the way diminishing returns are in this game. The only thing I would maybe consider putting in that 5th slot would be an RCS console, but with the low turn rate, it's almost not worth it.
As for your propsed BOff layout... Sorry man, but no. I put the Cmdr Engi simply because it's still a cruiser. And it's a fleet cruiser at that. Having the Cmdr Engi is a requirement for that. EVERY T5 and Fleet Cruiser in the game has a Cmdr Engi. All of them, Starfleet and KDF. You cannot make a fleet cruiser without it. And two LtCmdr slots? What? That's too many high level powers. Especially with a universal Cmdr slot. Also you only have 4 BOff slots. It's a fleet ship. Give it 5.
Your BOff setup violates any sense of balance. I'm sorry, but no. And the console setup doesn't say assault cruiser to me. Too many engi slots. It reminds me of the Galaxy-R.
The console setup I proposed is a copy of the setup on a fleet tor'kaht, probably one of the best damage dealing BCs in the game. It has a damage dealing and tanky feel with the 4/4, but still says attack because of the only 2 sci.
And lastly, how is the setup I proposed too much healboat? Cmdr Engi + Lt Engi = 6 engi slots. That's not that bad. I can think of 6 engi powers I would use that would all be pretty effective and not be too redundant. Also the 2 sci powers would be good for support and self survival.
You have to remember what a cruiser is. It's still a support tank. Granted the AC and Tac cruisers are all better for damage output, which is why I put the LtCmdr Tac and Lt Tac. Combine those two and you can have a constant APB1 and TT1 cycling, which give you good damage output. Also that LtCmdr tac allows you to put a higher level power if you need it, like APO2 or TS3. However you still need to be able to tank and heal/support both yourself and your team. Hence the Cmdr & Lt engi, and the Lt sci. Balanced BOff setup, and a good ship overall. Tbh, it's actually better with BOff setup than the Odyssey, at least as powers go.
Bit more manouverabilty couldn't hurt, either. I'd say this proposal would improve gaming experience for many players. Do it cryptic !
I would however suggest 4 eng, 3 sci and 4 tac consoles for it with the same turn rate, health etc the Excelsior has... I dunno perhaps that could be the fleet version of the ship (in the event they make one) I'd pay money (read "grind") for that
I think generally if Cryptic is going to make it terribly difficult for me to maneuver, I shouldn't have to suffer penalties for lack of proper positioning.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
You have my support on that one
Disadvantage? You pretty much have to be fully spec'd around this one ship which ain't fun or good if you like to use multiple ships.
What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
I beg to differ. My idea for the Fleet Assault Cruiser is not OP in any way. It is a little more powerful than the current AC (which is kind of the point of the fleet ship) and still not as powerful as an Odyssey or KDF BC. Bleh to you sir!!
I am half and half with this one.
I half agree for precisely the reason you stated: if I can't get anywhere, don't make me suffer for not being where I need to be. (self explanatory, so no additional backup reasoning needed here)
However I disagree because I can see that it would basically eliminate single cannons from ever needing to be used. DHCs won't suffer from this because their primary users would still be able to get up close and personal, neither would turrets because it's hard to make a 360 degree weapon suffer, but single cannons (barely used as is, exchange prices on purple quality mk XI and XIIs says enough there) would be almost unnecessary since you would be able to sustain better damage at higher ranges.
My 2 ECs (and courtesy of recent purchases on the exchange, I don't have a lot more XD)
Logic?
It would be big buff for beams versus cannons. Maybe too big.
Currently beams do 65% of thier base unbuffed damage at 10km with maximum damage of 100% at 1km.
Cannons do 35% of thier base unbuffed damage at 10km with maximum damage of 100% at 2km.
Range is important to damage stats. What you propose would make range irrelevant for beams.
I can easily zombie beam boats exploiting the "tall ships" flight dynamic, beam boat runners that stay at max range as one chases ineffectually, beamscorts that not longer have to aim or be close to target. Shudder.
Now I would not be against a change of;
Beams do 100% damage at 2km and 75% at 10km.
Cannons do 100% at 2km and 45% at 10km.
A 10% increase across the board.
R.I.P
Read quote below.
Alright now for the rest of my reply. I am a cruiser fan. You know this adam, but I am also a balance fan. The single cannons was only an example, not the entirety of what I was saying. But it was also late at night so I didn't have the brain power to completely articulate what I meant. Thankfully biteme was awake enough to do it for me and I thank him.
Anyways, you take away the range damage reduction, and that will make certain weapons that are less used (not completely worthless mind you) unused. Single cannons are not completely worthless. They are viable on many of the faster turning ships that can't use DHCs (like sci ships and smaller cruisers like your personal fave, the excel). But I would hold back this weapon because it's too strong. You take away range, and then all of a sudden you have something that's totally ludicrous in power, in both PvP and PvE. And that, as much as I love my Oddy and other cruisers, I cannot stand behind. Not in good conscience with balance in mind.
Its a near every waking moment thing for me.
R.I.P
Funny that Cryptic puts Threat Control in Tactical skills area when it should be in Engineering. Most Uber damage escorts will be able to steal aggro, but then they deserve to go down (if they do) for being lame at thinking strategically (the whole MAX DMG mindset can take you only so far, that's why many matches fail when 1 player think they can solo the map).
Note to Cryptic : put Threat Control in Engi Skills
1.) No its not a good idea to try and face off a Jem'Hadar head-on and try using BO, when TT is in place.
2.) For pete sake, balance your shields or do something...
3.) Front Torps, Rear Torps + Mines are useless. (At a mini. 7x beams + 1x mines)
4.) Stop using EWP offensively and conserve it for that time that will come when you have an escort on your tail
5.) NEUTRALIZE WEAPONS (TWSS) or ENGINES (Grav. pulse/ Omega 3-piece/ Chrotonic) of your opponent asap.
6.) The only position is abreast of your target 180 and wide circles. This way ALL 8 beams are firing on target.
7.) IF you do not have ACC trait you had better be running a minimal of [ACC]x3 weapons.
8.) EPTW + Jem Deflect + Jem Engine = weapons boost
9.) DEM + Omega Deflect + Omega Engine = still great
10.) Keybinds. Learn them
11.) Shared CD. Avoid them
12.) Doffs - the right ones.
And now we have the requisite PvPer going "You're a bunch of stupid idiots that need to learn how to play the game" post. This thread is now complete. Good day everyone.
If you want to get a message across find a better way to do it than coming and treating everybody you're talking to like a bunch of mentally deficient whiners.
From what I have read, most (not all) Cruiser pilots just want a little more bite to their attacks. Anytime it is mentioned, someone usually accuses them of wanting to do equal damage to an escort, when this is not the case.
My main is a Tac and he flies escorts period. My Engineer alt flies only Cruisers. If I would ask for advice for my Engineer in a Cruiser, I would be told to re-roll a Tac and get in an escort. Searching the forums, you will find a lot posts giving that same advice.
I don't believe the problem are Cruisers as such. I believe the problem lies more with the Beam Arrays, or more specifically, the lack of options for increasing their damage. With Beams, we get a choice of Fire at Will or Beam Overload. Both of which I see as situational abilities. While with cannons (and I mean all cannons) there is Cannon Scatter Volley and Cannon Rapid Fire. Scatter Volley and Fire at Will are more analogs of each other, but Beam Overload and Cannon Rapid Fire are more apples and oranges; which if Beams were given an analog of Cannon Rapid Fire (damage percentage increase only) then that might quiet things down a bit.
I took a different path with my beam boat. I took Attack Pattern Beta in lieu of Beam Overload. Works out a lot better for me and my team. You should keep in mind that I only PVE, so it won't work in PVP as Tac Team would counter it.
With my Engi-Cruiser my DPS is decent. In my Assault Cruiser I get 4500-5000 DPS over the course of the encounter; in my Assault Cruiser Refit or Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit I get 5000-5500 DPS over the encounter. Currently I fly a D'Kora and get 5500-6000 DPS. Couldn't get Cannons to perform reliably with any of them, so I stuck with Beams. In my Tac-Escort, I can get at least 7000 DPS without really trying.
There are two good comparisons I would like to share from what I have seen during STFs in a Cruiser. Situation 1: 2 Cruisers, 1 Science Vessel, and 2 Escorts. The Escorts bailed after commenting that there was no way the team had the DPS to get the optional. Situation 2: 1 Cruiser, 2 Science Vessels, and 2 Escorts. The Escorts stuck around. The Science Vessels were told to do their thing, and I (in a Cruiser) was told to not get in the way. Not make sure they were kept healed, just stay out of the way.
As far as Cruisers being Tanks, that's fine; but even Tanks have teeth.
I have read enough posts, and I can point you to a number of posts where they are indeed asking for very much more than a "little bite". They are always multiple buffs across dmg, turn rate, uni boffs slots. - completely disproportionate to what the Developers intended them for.
A better supply of Fed players who both understand and accept the role of cruisers, rather than expecting them to turn and deal damage like escorts.
Of course you can, I have read them too; but they are still in the minority. I took the time to work my build to be effective and not a lot do but wish to instead ask for outrageous things; but I do see some problems that I pointed out in the rest of my post, that you didn't include in your reply. Do I think you were condescending? No. You focused on what you felt you needed to address and I really have no problem with that.
In regards to hanover2's post... please read the sixth paragraph of my post. A Cruiser is considered a liability in STFs. Mostly because they are not needed or wanted for tanking. The Cruiser's role has been taken over by the tanky escort and the heal boat science vessel. Cruiser's are stuck in the middle with no real role at present. I know what their intended role is, but as I said, they are not wanted or needed at present. In my D'Kora, I debuff the enemy with Attack Pattern Beta 2 (have the three Conn Duty Officers to reduce the cooldown, so it is up most of the time), I am also able to heal my teammates as needed, and I can also hold aggro fairly well (Donatra loves me). That is the best I can do in my role; even if its not wanted.
One thing people need to understand is you either are DPS/Support, DPS/Tank or Tank/Support in a cruiser, I went the DPS/Tank route but I have enough skills to support the nearest player (keyword here being nearest, a support ship is no use when you have escorts who stay +15km from you and wonder why they did not get any heals, hence why I just throw the heals on my self/npc(s) defended as I need to).
When it comes to DPS in a cruiser, you need to think in terms of broadsiding and keeping a target there till its dead, if you want to go with a frontal attack then fly a escort that's what they do, if you want to play support and target passivisation then fly the sci, end of the day, you dictate your role your gear/boff/doff setup helps refine that role. Don't expect to just hop into a ship and right off the bat deal high damage or tank everything in sight.
If people want a copy of my build I'm more than happy to share it, but any build shared is not always gonna fit like a glove, its up to the player to decide where to adjust to make it work for their play-style.
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The opinions expressed in my posts are my own views and do not reflect on any other entity(s) or person(s) I may or may not represent at the time.
For the record I instantly said no to that. And I understand where you are coming from. I too want more content/ships/attention to be done with the KDF. However until that happens I will just sit in my Tor'Kaht, get TRIBBLE from all the nearby escorts for flying a cruiser, and then laugh quietly to myself as I not only draw aggro off of them, but then proceed to not only hold aggro, but stay alive with ease against most boss class enemies.
I really do wish they would add more content to the Klingon side. But what you need to remember is that the majority of players are feds. Therefore Cryptic/PWE is only going where the money is. The feds. Also, this is a post in the Fed subforum. Of course the majority of us are going to ignore the KDF completely here. I only post about federation things here unless I am laughing at how much better KDF stuff is in certain cases. Or if I really think the feds are getting out of hand.
However as soon as I enter the KDF subforums, I instantly go KDF. I think and breathe KDF only for the most part.
Yes, it's unfair that the KDF got shafted again, especially by a ship as stupidly powerful as the Vesta is going to be (seriously, that ship only has one bloody weakness, it's low base HP, it's stupid!!). And I am annoyed that the KDF got screwed by a few other things. But as I stated before, this is a Fed subforum. So naturally... you hear fed gripes here, with little to no regard for anything else.
Thank you and I apologise for being very critical. It was late and I was frustrated and I took it out on everyone.
The only thing I wish to mention, is I believe that the problem is not with cruisers per say, but the nature of STF's themselves. Its not the ships that are the problem.
I disagree ! 6 turn rate IS a problem. Such values should not be present in STO at all. Flying such ship is punishment, not fun.