Currency Confusion

dorenob · October 2012

This is just my opinion and complaining, but I'm getting confused with all the different currencies that have been introduced/used/pulled from the game.

I understand there has to be a way to make it more difficult to get higher end gear (Mark XII x4 stuff), but really? <Enter sarcasm here> Africa doesn't have this many different forms of currency!

Can we have just 1 or 2 forms of currency, and just make the higher items more expensive? I'm getting so confused as to what I need to do to get what currency! Thank goodnes for the wiki site to help guide me!
www.stowiki.org/currency

*denotes no longer used in game

Energy Credits
Badges of Exploration*
Encrypted Data Chips
Fleet Marks
Fleet Credits
Gold-Pressed Latinum
Honor*
Dilithium
Lobi Crystals
PVP medals*
Starfleet Merits*
Zen

vaithh · October 2012

I remember one of the given reasons for removing Emblems, and exploration related credits, was to reduce the complexity of the currency system. It is just silly complicated right now.

Additionally, your list excludes many of the other portions of the unnecessarily complicated Borg reward system that is in place. Why can't we purchase Borg kit DIRECTLY from data chips, salvage, or otherwise?

starkaos · October 2012

Apparently they are getting rid of encrypted data chips and replacing them with Omega Marks. Other STF currencies will be removed as well and replaced with Omega Marks. Supposedly there will be some conversion process like what happened with dilithium. Season 7 will add two currencies, Romulan Marks and Omega Marks. I imagine if another thing is added to the Reputation system, then it will get its own Mark.

The reason why there are so many currencies is that Cryptic wants to gate certain rewards behind certain activities. For example, rewards are gated in the lobi store to people that actually open a lockbox. If the lobi store had everything available for a few million EC, then there is no point for people to open a lockbox. Although Cryptic seems to be happy in most cases if someone gets a reward through some means and sells it for EC.

darkenzedd · October 2012

The devs wont tell you this, but the real reason for the change was to wipe out a good portion of the emblems that players had accrued.
The same will happen again when the "new" reputation system goes live in season 7

The reason: they dont want anyone who has saved up to get the new gear easily, so they say they will reimburse us for our currency, but not the full amount. :rolleyes:

anazonda · October 2012

darkenzedd wrote: »

The devs wont tell you this, but the real reason for the change was to wipe out a good portion of the emblems that players had accrued.
The same will happen again when the "new" reputation system goes live in season 7

The reason: they dont want anyone who has saved up to get the new gear easily, so they say they will reimburse us for our currency, but not the full amount. :rolleyes:

This... The F**ked us once, and they are going to again with this new conversion.

hrisvalar · October 2012

Sort of. Probably. It does seem like they're taking away the mice's accumulated pellets to get them to go back to hit the pedal again and get another one. It's the worst way to recycle content, and it's probably why they call it the holodeck. Oh I'm sorry, did you think you were actually climbing that mountain? There's only fifteen feet of clearance between the floor and the ceiling.

Of course, now we have dilithium. They can just set a hard cap on how far up in the new system you can start, based on accumulated accolades and collected salvage. This instead of a curve. Or use the difference between 'actual value' and the player's place on that curve. Then rather than disappear the remainder/difference, convert whatever tokens you exceed that cap by to dilithium at the rate presently in effect at the Omega Force store. That would be a proper conversion. No one actually, truly loses anything other than the opportunity to exchange these items for anything else past day one.

Alternatively, perhaps better still, they can just remove the drops from the STFs (presuming that's what's happening anyway), let people keep the stuff they already accumulated, keep the store open for a few more weeks (or indefinately, for the current inactives) in some less prominent form, and have short-duration (instant) reputation assignments in the new reputation system, up to their preset cutoff point, where these items can be used. Let people decide for themselves whether they want to start over and exchange their salvage for gear or dilithium, or take the shortcut.

But yeah, 9 out of 10 cynics say that's probably not going to happen.

The other one's unconscious on a methanol drip.

On the upside, some of those currencies are going away. 21 types, EDC, rare salvage, prototype salvage, and three tiers of three-piece space-set techs and ground-set techs that no longer need any storage space, for 1 new type, Omega Marks. And Romulan Marks will probably have Reman datalogs go the way of the Romulans.

What? Too soon?

adabisi · October 2012

lemme guess.....they will offer an elite BOFF for another 1% of the game like they did last time wth the conversion.......I still use my 3 boffs from that...ahem gift.

timelord79 · October 2012

It is going to hit our inventory and bank space hard, believe me.
Right now, you need some spaces for EDC, etc...

When the new system hits, you get presumable all converted to Marks which take no more inventory slots. Great.

But that is only half the truth.

You can't turn in those marks for gear directly. You have to use it in Reputation projects similar to the fleet system to get the rewards. And those projects will require also all sorts of stuff you can collect in the related mission content.

For example Nanospray hypos, Borg stun grenades, or those rare super hypos and lockboxes (kidding, I wish it were so

Similarly the Romulan reputation. We will see new bit stuff drop in those Romulan themed new content that will be required for reputation projects.

And all that stuff will take up a hell of a lot more inventory then EDCs...

They are turning items into currencies... if you can still call all that a currency.

markhawkman · October 2012

vaithh wrote: »

I remember one of the given reasons for removing Emblems, and exploration related credits, was to reduce the complexity of the currency system. It is just silly complicated right now.

Additionally, your list excludes many of the other portions of the unnecessarily complicated Borg reward system that is in place. Why can't we purchase Borg kit DIRECTLY from data chips, salvage, or otherwise?

Badges of exploration/Marks of Valor/etc.. were worse. Borg tech drops are almost as bad but not quite.

Why did badges suck so much? They were linked to rank. Not the rank you were when you earned them, but the rank of stuff you could exchange them for. Seriously... prior to the Dilithium conversion, there were 17 currencies. Some of which could only be used to buy low level junk. See: http://www.stowiki.org/File:Assets.png The "order" of a Badge of Exploration was the rank of gear you could use it to buy.

chikahiro · October 2012

dorenob wrote: »

have just 1 or 2 forms of currency, and just make the higher items more expensive?

I strongly believe the reason for any diversity in currency is players will ultimately "optimize" for anything, and accrue absurd amounts of the stuff. What's the EC cap? 1 billion? I'm sure there are more than a few players who have hit that (certainly, in my old MMO, COH, there were many players with many characters at the cap!).

In some, older MMOs the abundance of gold/coins/whatever was so absurdly high that it was practically worthless. Players started trading using other items (or paying each other money out of game) rather than pay the inflated prices they'd see with the game's actual currency.

Having multiple currencies seems to be a way to slow things down, or at least spread out the results of a player's efforts. Moreover, it ensures the players have to participate in certain activities to get certain rewards. That way, the devs can have a *little* more control over Risk:Reward and Time:Reward. These activities are less efficient than, say, earning EC or Dilithium, so they're more of a timesink and require more interaction on the player's part (in theory).

From Matt Miller (former Cryptic and Paragon Studios):
Currencies - http://www.mmodesigner.com/?p=253
Risk Vs Reward (also deals with Time vs Reward) - http://www.mmodesigner.com/?p=34
Timesinks - http://www.mmodesigner.com/?p=118

felderburg · October 2012

chikahiro wrote: »

From Matt Miller (former Cryptic and Paragon Studios):
Currencies - http://www.mmodesigner.com/?p=253
Risk Vs Reward (also deals with Time vs Reward) - http://www.mmodesigner.com/?p=34
Timesinks - http://www.mmodesigner.com/?p=118

I'd forgotten about that blog. Definitely good reads. The thing I worry about is STO having a constantly changing set of currencies. What if the devs decide to overhaul currencies again a year from now?

chikahiro · October 2012

felderburg wrote: »

I'd forgotten about that blog. Definitely good reads. The thing I worry about is STO having a constantly changing set of currencies. What if the devs decide to overhaul currencies again a year from now?

I see what you did there, and bravo, I say, bravo!

Anyhow - no telling. As Matt points out, nobody likes obvious/obnoxious money sinks, yet all this stuff is constantly being created. I mean, we could have a fixed amount of resources in-game, but I've got the idea that would go over like a lead balloon.

dorenob · October 2012

I didn't know I'd get this much feedback! i was just venting!!!!
Thanks for giving this ol' woman some information!

chikahiro - that blog you have links to is awesome! Thanks for having that!

dabelgrave · October 2012

I recently tried figuring out how much of one currency was worth in another currency, even those you cannot convert between. I'm still a bit unsure about the Lobi conversion rates. It's a work in progress, and might have a few wrong values.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Asc_VtvL64z4dHJEU1hPc2djcFphRFEyQkhmWUVDakE

hereticknight085 · October 2012

I think the shafting has begun already. I recently got the mk XII omega set on one of my toons, and I already had the MACO commander accolade, but it didn't give me the Omega Shadow Force Operative accolade. So the way I see it, the accolades are already being disabled so you can't prove progress, which means they don't have to give you as much... annoying as hell cuz I had to work hard to get the full mk XII set twice for that particular toon...

chikahiro · October 2012

dorenob wrote: »

I didn't know I'd get this much feedback! i was just venting!!!!
Thanks for giving this ol' woman some information!

chikahiro - that blog you have links to is awesome! Thanks for having that!

Yeah! I'm really hoping Matt comes back to Cryptic (he left Cryptic to join Paragon Studios when NCSoft bought out COH), as I've been very happy with the work he and the others did with COH. Granted, given his family and such, maybe he's wanting to do something else (I figure MMO work is a grind). But, yes, I'm lucky to have found that, and would love for him to get back to it at some point.

Its good reading. Gamasutra.com has stuff from MMO developers as well, and its usually them talking to their peers in the industry. More good stuff there. I love the sausage factory of the game industry, and it really makes me appreciate the stuff that comes out all the more (even the bad games, believe it or not).

dabelgrave wrote: »

I recently tried figuring out how much of one currency was worth in another currency, even those you cannot convert between. I'm still a bit unsure about the Lobi conversion rates. It's a work in progress, and might have a few wrong values.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Asc_VtvL64z4dHJEU1hPc2djcFphRFEyQkhmWUVDakE

Yay! I love seeing stuff like this, even if I can't understand it

http://samonmaui.blogspot.com/2012/10/sto-buying-zen-with-energy-credits.html

Closest I've come to what you've done, and you've easily blown me away. That said, you've definitely inspired me to put more thought into this idea...

I've got a spreadsheet of all my collected Zen|Dilithium data if you want

dabelgrave · October 2012

chikahiro wrote: »

Yay! I love seeing stuff like this, even if I can't understand it
http://samonmaui.blogspot.com/2012/10/sto-buying-zen-with-energy-credits.html

Closest I've come to what you've done, and you've easily blown me away. That said, you've definitely inspired me to put more thought into this idea...

I've got a spreadsheet of all my collected Zen|Dilithium data if you want

Unfortunately, my spreadsheet is not designed to use historical data. Instead, I just put in the current values of certain currencies, and it calculates how much an amount of one currency is worth in all the other currencies.

Some things I've noticed:

Most of the conversions are designed to remove small amounts of currency from the game. It might not seem like much, but the number of transactions taking place probably reduces in-game currency quite quickly.
You get more value going converting Zen to Dilithium to unreplicable materials to Energy Credits than if you convert Zen to EC by selling C-Store items.
The $$$ value of Energy Credits is slightly higher if you purchase them from a third-party. Also, this is against the TOS, so DO NOT do it.
I have no idea what the actual Zen to Lobi conversion is, but at the minimum amount, you quickly lose value.
Fleet Marks seem under-awarded, so you need to do especially well in any method of obtaining them, AND use that FM bonus that costs 15k fleet credits per 100 bonus FMs.

foundrelic · October 2012

anazonda wrote: »

This... The F**ked us once, and they are going to again with this new conversion.

Well look at it this way, now us new players get to feel the horrible, horrible sting of the forced conversion.

I am more than a little peeved that this is happening. It would be one thing if it were a straight up swap.

1 EDC = 1 mark

1rare salvage = 5 marks

1 proto salvage = 10 marks

Any of the pieces (deflector, engines, shield) would earn 15+ on a rising scale based on rarity.

WHile I'm sure a few people would scream through a few tiers thanks to a glut of saved items it would still be fair, those people busted their ***** for that stuff, they should be rewarded with the same amount of marks that they would have earned if they'd only started doign the runs in season 7.

It's in no way shape or form right to punish the players because cryptic/pwe decided to change the rules in the middle of the flipping game.

chikahiro · October 2012

dabelgrave wrote: »

Unfortunately, my spreadsheet is not designed to use historical data. Instead, I just put in the current values of certain currencies, and it calculates how much an amount of one currency is worth in all the other currencies.

Heh... no worries. I'm just sitting around with data I don't entirely know how to utilize

[*]Most of the conversions are designed to remove small amounts of currency from the game. It might not seem like much, but the number of transactions taking place probably reduces in-game currency quite quickly.

Which makes sense. Don't most MMOs have to deal with rampant inflation as they age?

[*]You get more value going converting Zen to Dilithium to unreplicable materials to Energy Credits than if you convert Zen to EC by selling C-Store items.

I've enjoyed selling Unreps, and find it a great tool. Will have to do more of that later on, actually.

[*]The $$$ value of Energy Credits is slightly higher if you purchase them from a third-party. Also, this is against the TOS, so DO NOT do it.

Puts you at great risk for account theft or worse, so totally agree. That said, I went to DS9 once and the Dollar to EC rate they were spamming was worse than the Dollar to EC rate I can get using Zen and Dilithium, or even buying C-Store stuff.

Personally, I love the Zen|Dilithium market plus how the Exchange can interact with it. It gives you so many options, even with a relatively simple grasp of it (like I have). The more sophisticated players likely have tons more they can do, too

[*]I have no idea what the actual Zen to Lobi conversion is, but at the minimum amount, you quickly lose value.

Well, the value of Lobi, to me, is the stuff you *can not* buy directly with Zen. Of course, I also prefer to buy my lockboxes with Dilithium bought Zen. If you assume you'll get 4 Lobi per box at $1.25/key (I know you can get more, but I'm being conservative here), then a 200 Lobi item costs $62.50. If you assume 10 lobi per box (which is so unlikely I can't take it seriously), you're looking at $25 and should probably go about buying lottery tickets.

dabelgrave · October 2012

chikahiro wrote: »

Don't most MMOs have to deal with rampant inflation as they age?

I think inflation is less noticeable than the effects of supply and demand. Take [Acc]x3 weapons for example. The supply of those items does not increase as fast as demand for those items, thereby sending prices up. That's just the price shifting to accommodate the market, not evidence of inflation. Also, there are enough currency sinks in the game that it seems to keep inflation more or less in check. Every bound item is the removal of currency. Every vendor sale is the removal of currency. Everything going into your starbase is the removal of currency. Cryptic benefits by removing currency from the game.

chikahiro wrote: »

Personally, I love the Zen|Dilithium market plus how the Exchange can interact with it. It gives you so many options, even with a relatively simple grasp of it (like I have). The more sophisticated players likely have tons more they can do, too

The options are certainly many. Some currencies directly convert, while others convert indirectly (selling/trading items). That's pretty much how I was able to figure out the relative values in the different currencies.

chikahiro wrote: »

Well, the value of Lobi, to me, is the stuff you *can not* buy directly with Zen. Of course, I also prefer to buy my lockboxes with Dilithium bought Zen. If you assume you'll get 4 Lobi per box at $1.25/key (I know you can get more, but I'm being conservative here), then a 200 Lobi item costs $62.50. If you assume 10 lobi per box (which is so unlikely I can't take it seriously), you're looking at $25 and should probably go about buying lottery tickets.

I know the average is somewhere above 4, but it's very difficult to calculate that amount. If I want everything in the spreadsheet to line up evenly, it needs to be averaging 16 Lobi per lockbox. Based on the Zen->EC->Lobi rates, I would think the average is actually closer to 8, which still shows Lobi as a massive devaluation.

Currency Confusion

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