STO for Apple computers?

farmallm · October 2012

I wonder if they plan on making it playable for Apple computers? I run an Apple computer, lucky for me I have "Boot Camp" which allows me to swap over to windows to play it. However it would relieve me of that if it was on Apple as well. Then I just log on and play, and not have to restart my computer to do the swap.

Im sure other Apple users will love this.

chikahiro · October 2012

farmallm wrote: »

I wonder if they plan on making it playable for Apple computers? I run an Apple computer, lucky for me I have "Boot Camp" which allows me to swap over to windows to play it. However it would relieve me of that if it was on Apple as well. Then I just log on and play, and not have to restart my computer to do the swap.

Im sure other Apple users will love this.

Well, the biggest question is "how many Macs can run it" followed by "what percentage of Mac users can we expect to play and pay?"

Sadly, Apple has had too many models with those horrible Intel graphics - never understood why they had such horrible hardware in their entry level machines when AMD/ATI and Nvidia have much better entry-level solutions. You also have to figure in what versions of OSX to support - where do they draw the line? 10.7 or later? 10.6? Heaven forbid they start at 10.8 >_<

The big thing is are you wanting CIDER (basically, a wrapper for the Windows client) or native? I don't think we'll see a native OSX client, sadly. GW2, COH, a lot of EA games, etc., all use CIDER with varying results.

Granted, if they did support OSX, I'd just as soon see them support Linux as well. But, this might be dreaming. And again, while there may be millions of users, would enough people on those platforms pay in to make it worthwhile?

How does Parallels work for you? Try that, maybe? A Windows virtual machine?

jg2112 · October 2012

Wine or Crossover should work too. I use wine for STO on linux and it works just as well as it would on Windows.

chikahiro · October 2012

jg2112 wrote: »

Wine or Crossover should work too. I use wine for STO on linux and it works just as well as it would on Windows.

You know, that made me think...
http://wiki.winehq.org/MacOSX

Sadly, I don't think my iMac can handle STO (2006 model), but if/when I ever upgrade to a newer machine? I'll have to try.

Given the potentially lower overhead with Linux, it should run better, no? How are the drivers for gaming these days? Is it better for one card than the other (Radeon vs GeForce)?

edit: Granted, I'm going to assume you're pretty tech savvy. How do you think the average user would fare?

macdude22 · October 2012

jg2112 wrote: »

Wine or Crossover should work too. I use wine for STO on linux and it works just as well as it would on Windows.

It does run fine in Crossover on a Mac Pro w/ 4870 and MBP with Geforce 650.

commadorebob · October 2012

Since the TOTAL Mac marketshare = 10%, then it really isn't worth the effort. Most major gamers still use Windows gaming rigs. If a Mac user is serious about playing MMOs, they'll install Windows using Boot Camp or use WINE.

tangolight · October 2012

You can run it without having to boot into Windows if you use a Wineskin wrapper.

See http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=381881 for details.

farmallm · October 2012

chikahiro wrote: »

You know, that made me think...
http://wiki.winehq.org/MacOSX

Sadly, I don't think my iMac can handle STO (2006 model), but if/when I ever upgrade to a newer machine? I'll have to try.

Given the potentially lower overhead with Linux, it should run better, no? How are the drivers for gaming these days? Is it better for one card than the other (Radeon vs GeForce)?

edit: Granted, I'm going to assume you're pretty tech savvy. How do you think the average

user would fare?

I run an IMac that is a few years old. It runs it just fine, by using Boot Camp.

farmallm · October 2012

It was just a thought. I don't have issues going into boot camp to play.

chikahiro · October 2012

commadorebob wrote: »

Since the TOTAL Mac marketshare = 10%, then it really isn't worth the effort. Most major gamers still use Windows gaming rigs. If a Mac user is serious about playing MMOs, they'll install Windows using Boot Camp or use WINE.

However, Apple sells a good share of laptops (a category that has surpassed desktop sales for a number of years now), plus the Star Trek brand has appeal outside the gaming community. Its worth noting that EVE has found an OSX client to be worthwhile, and they're pretty niche in their focus.

There's also the argument/theory that since iOS/OSX users are paying a premium for their hardware and apps (compared to regular PCs and Android's plethora of free stuff), that they'd be the perfect target for STO's F2P model, be it through subs, micros, or even buying a sub. Hell, on the Humble Bundle they pay more than Windows users do by a reasonable margin (although Linux users still beat everyone).

http://www.humblebundle.com/

Total payments: $2,048,742.31

316,281 Purchases #:

$6.48 Average purchase

$5.82 Average Windows

$7.59 Average Mac

$10.48 Average Linux

There are fewer Mac owners, but its possible the ones that would sign on would be relatively profitable. Its something worth looking into, I think.

farmallm wrote: »

I run an IMac that is a few years old. It runs it just fine, by using Boot Camp.

I'll double-check my machine later on. I'm pretty sure mine won't make the listed minimum requirements due to the GPU. Also, I'm short on RAM (only 1g). I am glad to hear it works fine for you, though! I'll still try, although my iMac is right next to my Windows 7 desktop which is far superior in comparison, specs-wise.

Hmm... maybe I should add a drive and try making a Hackintosh ^_^

farmallm wrote: »

It was just a thought. I don't have issues going into boot camp to play.

Well, honestly, the easier it is to play the games, the better, right? Not everyone will dual-boot. If you can simply install and run? Beautiful.

pwebranflakes · October 2012

To answer the OPs question, we're not working on porting the client to the Mac at this time, but that doesn't mean it's out of the question for the future

There are just no plans at this time.

Side-note: I run STO on my MBP through Bootcamp too

Cheers,

Brandon =/\=

trhrangerxml · October 2012

Anyone try to run STO through Wine on a Mac?

chikahiro · October 2012

trhrangerxml wrote: »

Anyone try to run STO through Wine on a Mac?

Lost among some rather large posts.

tangolight wrote: »

You can run it without having to boot into Windows if you use a Wineskin wrapper.

See http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=381881 for details.

chikahiro · October 2012

pwebranflakes wrote: »

To answer the OPs question, we're not working on porting the client to the Mac at this time, but that doesn't mean it's out of the question for the future There are just no plans at this time.

Side-note: I run STO on my MBP through Bootcamp too

Cheers,

Brandon =/\=

Danke, danke. Honestly, an OEM copy of Windows is an excellent investment for many Mac users. I wish you could run OSX on non-Apple hardware as easily as you can run Windows or Linux on Macs, but oh well... of course, it makes sense since Apple is a hardware/product company, not a software one (like MS).

amayakitsune · October 2012

chikahiro wrote: »

Sadly, Apple has had too many models with those horrible Intel graphics - never understood why they had such horrible hardware in their entry level machines when AMD/ATI and Nvidia have much better entry-level solutions. You also have to figure in what versions of OSX to support - where do they draw the line? 10.7 or later? 10.6? Heaven forbid they start at 10.8 >_<?

The current models have Intel's HD3000/4000 integrated chips. They are more than capable of running STO at 20-25 FPS on low to medium. My Mac mini handles it just fine in Windows.

As for which version to support... I would start one version prior to the currently released version of Mac OS X (in this case 10.7 'Lion'.)

A proper STO client for Mac should be looked in to. At least far enough to see how profitable it would be, but I'd love to not have to reboot my mini to play.

chikahiro · October 2012

amayakitsune wrote: »

The current models have Intel's HD3000/4000 integrated chips. They are more than capable of running STO at 20-25 FPS on low to medium. My Mac mini handles it just fine in Windows.

I still despise Intel's graphics hardware, and for the price of the hardware I'd appreciate something better. But, that's my personal opinion. That said, I can understand not using it as a way of clearly differentiating between models. Be it gaming or OpenCL/GPU-acceleration for applications, its a compelling feature.

amayakitsune · October 2012

chikahiro wrote: »

I still despise Intel's graphics hardware, and for the price of the hardware I'd appreciate something better. But, that's my personal opinion. That said, I can understand not using it as a way of clearly differentiating between models. Be it gaming or OpenCL/GPU-acceleration for applications, its a compelling feature.

Its a way of offering a model cheaper for those people who dont need graphics power. For instance my Mac mini is $599 the next one up with the ATi gfx card is $799. I didnt need the power of the ATi card so I didnt need to spend money on something I didnt need. Its a fairly good way of differentiating model tiers with in the same make of Mac.

And I could understand the Intel hate if it were one of the GMA series but the HD series is actually... you know good. the 3000 i have supports DX10.1 and the newer 4000 supports DX11.

chikahiro · October 2012

amayakitsune wrote: »

Its a way of offering a model cheaper for those people who dont need graphics power. For instance my Mac mini is $599 the next one up with the ATi gfx card is $799. I didnt need the power of the ATi card so I didnt need to spend money on something I didnt need. Its a fairly good way of differentiating model tiers with in the same make of Mac.

And I could understand the Intel hate if it were one of the GMA series but the HD series is actually... you know good. the 3000 i have supports DX10.1 and the newer 4000 supports DX11.

Which is understandable. But AMD and Nvidia both have entry-level/non-gamer solutions I would find preferable, would be inexpensive for an OEM to incorporate and were intended for such low-power use.

Sorry, bit of snobbery, I suppose. Just seeing Intel's graphics in a Mac gives me the same feeling that painting a Ferrari (or a Mini Cooper) with Sherwin-Williams. Sure, it might be nice house paint, but its still house paint.

But, again, snobbery.

amayakitsune · October 2012

Except the Intel HD gpu is built into the CPU... so it doesnt matter if AMD and Nvidia offer entry level gpus... Apples already getting a gpu when they get their supply of Core i3s, i5s and i7s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HD_Graphics

More appropriately in your analogy seeing Intel gpus in a Mac is like seeing a Mini Cooper that comes with CD Player instead of satellite radio.

chikahiro · October 2012

amayakitsune wrote: »

Except the Intel HD gpu is built into the CPU... so it doesnt matter if AMD and Nvidia offer entry level gpus... Apples already getting a gpu when they get their supply of Core i3s, i5s and i7s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HD_Graphics

More appropriately in your analogy seeing Intel gpus in a Mac is like seeing a Mini Cooper that comes with CD Player instead of satellite radio.

Well, having inexpensive radio, recycled carpet, and cloth instead of leather. Again, it still seems out of place, and I don't thinking adding something simple/basic would add so much to a cost to make it significantly less profitable than it is now. Like walking into a Lexus or BMW car lot and seeing a Kia right there. Sure, it works, might be a great car, but isn't in the same high-end category/market.

Anyhow, I'll happily agree to disagree at this point.

leviathan99 · October 2012

amayakitsune wrote: »

A proper STO client for Mac should be looked in to. At least far enough to see how profitable it would be, but I'd love to not have to reboot my mini to play.

I'm a broken record on this point but there's big question that I think MMO studios bypass when they investigate this question, because it requires hard research:

Does failing to have a Mac port cost you PC users? (Likely it does, some. The question is how many?)

A game like STO might see a 5-10% playerbase gain from Mac users. But I think having the Mac port would actually get them more PC players than it would Mac users.

My anecdotal evidence based gut feeling is that people play MMOs in pre-existing social network circles. About one in ten people are die hard Mac users who won't or lack the technical skill to install bootcamp. Losing that one person costs you five PC players.

Online games that have a Mac port seem to me like they get double the PC gamers that games which only work on the PC get. It's not that Mac users are a big demo. It's that they're the access valve to more PC gamers, who won't play games without their Mac friends.

chikahiro · October 2012

stoleviathan99 wrote: »

I'm a broken record on this point but there's big question that I think MMO studios bypass when they investigate this question, because it requires hard research:

Does failing to have a Mac port cost you PC users? (Likely it does, some. The question is how many?)

A game like STO might see a 5-10% playerbase gain from Mac users. But I think having the Mac port would actually get them more PC players than it would Mac users.

My anecdotal evidence based gut feeling is that people play MMOs in pre-existing social network circles. About one in ten people are die hard Mac users who won't or lack the technical skill to install bootcamp. Losing that one person costs you five PC players.

Online games that have a Mac port seem to me like they get double the PC gamers that games which only work on the PC get. It's not that Mac users are a big demo. It's that they're the access valve to more PC gamers, who won't play games without their Mac friends.

That sounds very reasonable, actually. Social networks are a big factor for MMOs, and why some people don't leave (insert game name), even if they'd rather play something else. I've known guilds that split, leave for another game, then come back as a result. The more social "glue" a game has, the better.

For a game that's F2P, that's REALLY important. Especially if some of the people who stick around might be big spenders... whales don't stick around where there's no little fish (unhealthy ecosystem).

edit: worth noting - implied benefits like this are likely harder to measure. Also, with Asian companies/games, I don't think there's nearly enough Macs out there to work for them. Windows, legitimately licensed or pirated, is the dominant OS and will run on pretty much anything. That's likely a bigger factor for some companies.

leviathan99 · October 2012

chikahiro wrote: »

That sounds very reasonable, actually. Social networks are a big factor for MMOs, and why some people don't leave (insert game name), even if they'd rather play something else. I've known guilds that split, leave for another game, then come back as a result. The more social "glue" a game has, the better.

For a game that's F2P, that's REALLY important. Especially if some of the people who stick around might be big spenders... whales don't stick around where there's no little fish (unhealthy ecosystem).

edit: worth noting - implied benefits like this are likely harder to measure. Also, with Asian companies/games, I don't think there's nearly enough Macs out there to work for them. Windows, legitimately licensed or pirated, is the dominant OS and will run on pretty much anything. That's likely a bigger factor for some companies.

Well... PWE is interested in more western market presence. Cryptic is their R&D department. STO is a very western audience game and isn't DESIGNED to perform well in China. In fact, as I understand it, access is not allowed there and PWE isn't interested in bringing STO to China.

I think the smart thing would be to get PWE to commission a study, beginning with a presentation on how western games with the biggest sub numbers have Mac ports. Try to evaluate if there's a connection. Then, if there is, it's probably worth funneling R&D money into one of Cryptic's games for a Mac port to see what it does to the numbers. You'd probably get more boom out of STO or Champs since I think they're intended to remain western market games... whereas NW -- I think -- is headed for a big Asian release and may have dramatically more Asian players than western players, meaning that the benefits of a port in terms of percentage effect would be smaller.

amayakitsune · October 2012

stoleviathan99 wrote: »

Well... PWE is interested in more western market presence. Cryptic is their R&D department. STO is a very western audience game and isn't DESIGNED to perform well in China. In fact, as I understand it, access is not allowed there and PWE isn't interested in bringing STO to China.

I think the smart thing would be to get PWE to commission a study, beginning with a presentation on how western games with the biggest sub numbers have Mac ports. Try to evaluate if there's a connection. Then, if there is, it's probably worth funneling R&D money into one of Cryptic's games for a Mac port to see what it does to the numbers. You'd probably get more boom out of STO or Champs since I think they're intended to remain western market games... whereas NW -- I think -- is headed for a big Asian release and may have dramatically more Asian players than western players, meaning that the benefits of a port in terms of percentage effect would be smaller.

I think the case study for this should be WoW... as much as I hate to admit it.

WoW has had a Mac port since it came out. It would be interesting to see if (correct me if Im wrong) most successful MMO ever has a substantial Mac population.

A brief Google search as also yeilded the following MMOs with Mac clients:

City of Heroes (The irony of this one, doesnt escape me, since Cryptic originally developed it.): Added in 2008.

EVE Online: Added in 2007.

EverQuest: Added in 2003. Has a full sever dedicated to Mac OS X. Was going to be shut down this year, and due to passionate response fromt he player base was converted to a F2P model.

Warhammer Online: Added in 2009.

farmallm · October 2012

chikahiro wrote: »

However, Apple sells a good share of laptops (a category that has surpassed desktop sales for a number of years now), plus the Star Trek brand has appeal outside the gaming community. Its worth noting that EVE has found an OSX client to be worthwhile, and they're pretty niche in their focus.

There's also the argument/theory that since iOS/OSX users are paying a premium for their hardware and apps (compared to regular PCs and Android's plethora of free stuff), that they'd be the perfect target for STO's F2P model, be it through subs, micros, or even buying a sub. Hell, on the Humble Bundle they pay more than Windows users do by a reasonable margin (although Linux users still beat everyone).

http://www.humblebundle.com/

There are fewer Mac owners, but its possible the ones that would sign on would be relatively profitable. Its something worth looking into, I think.

I'll double-check my machine later on. I'm pretty sure mine won't make the listed minimum requirements due to the GPU. Also, I'm short on RAM (only 1g). I am glad to hear it works fine for you, though! I'll still try, although my iMac is right next to my Windows 7 desktop which is far superior in comparison, specs-wise.

Hmm... maybe I should add a drive and try making a Hackintosh ^_^

Well, honestly, the easier it is to play the games, the better, right? Not everyone will dual-boot. If you can simply install and run? Beautiful.

Oh ok mine has the NVIDIA GeForce 9400. I hadn't done any mods on my computer still factory. And it runs the game good for most of the time. However I hadn't tried group missions yet to see how it does in them. Stations so far it does ok.

I came from WoW, and big as they are. They had it where Apple computers could run without having to log onto Windows. I really loved that. Just a couple clicks and I was playing. Where with STO, I have to wait like up to 2-4 mins for my computer to restart, then Windows to start up. I love playing STO, so even that won't stop me from playing.

farmallm · October 2012

amayakitsune wrote: »

I think the case study for this should be WoW... as much as I hate to admit it.

WoW has had a Mac port since it came out. It would be interesting to see if (correct me if Im wrong) most successful MMO ever has a substantial Mac population.

I agree, I used to play this game until I found STO. They just came out with the new expansion. And I have no intention to go back. I'm loving STO far better.

farmallm · October 2012

pwebranflakes wrote: »

To answer the OPs question, we're not working on porting the client to the Mac at this time, but that doesn't mean it's out of the question for the future There are just no plans at this time.

Side-note: I run STO on my MBP through Bootcamp too

Cheers,

Brandon =/\=

Thanks for the reply. I been an Apple computer user for nearly a decade now. So I was curious on the game being able to play for them as well.

tonyedu · October 2012

farmallm wrote: »

I wonder if they plan on making it playable for Apple computers? I run an Apple computer, lucky for me I have "Boot Camp" which allows me to swap over to windows to play it. However it would relieve me of that if it was on Apple as well. Then I just log on and play, and not have to restart my computer to do the swap.

Im sure other Apple users will love this.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned doh123's work in keeping a modern wine port for STO: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=381881

It's quite excellent. I've been running his wine port since STO's original release.

tolwyn21 · October 2012

I'd personally love to have a STO for Mac OS. I know it runs just fine on my MBP but I've been trying to get it running on my MBA (2012 edition). Foolishly, I tried to run it using VM Fusion (threw all processors and RAM at it in settings), and after 2 hours of downloading/installing -- it runs like thick maple syrup. If I install boot camp, will it run any better? I really wanted to run in VM Fusion to avoid the restart/reboot situation but I'm willing to try it since I have some downtime this week.

Any advice?

Thanks!

amayakitsune · October 2012

tonyedu wrote: »

I'm surprised no one's mentioned doh123's work in keeping a modern wine port for STO: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=381881

It's quite excellent. I've been running his wine port since STO's original release.

The WINE port is great, in so much as that it enables STO to run while in OS X, but beyond that its pretty poor. I ran it once and using the same setting I can use in the native Windows app I got something close to 10 fps... where I can get 30 on a good day in Windows. A native client will always beat out a WINE wrapper.

tangolight · October 2012

tonyedu wrote: »

I'm surprised no one's mentioned doh123's work in keeping a modern wine port for STO: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=381881

It's quite excellent. I've been running his wine port since STO's original release.

I did mention it. Post #7 on the first page of this thread. And then someone quoted me on the 2nd page.

STO for Apple computers?

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