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Please introduce a "real" experience penalty for death.
heckyll
Member Posts: 4 Arc User
Now here is something some people may not agree with me on, but if it were implemented into the game it would make people learn their character classes, and learn the games mechanics.
What I am proposing is, and has been tried and true on many other games. Some in the same forms, and some even more difficult.
But basically what I am suggesting is that upon death, especially in the higher end areas of the game, ship damage is not a solution, because clearly it is not working. And also an increasing timer for death on missions really is not working either.
So what I am suggesting, is upon character death, whether it is a ground or a space mission, is that there is an exponential experience death penalty. Some people may think this is harsh, but when it really comes down to it, it is not. It is far kinder to everyone else who is suffering at the hands of someone who either does not want to learn their character class, or is a troll and just wants to mess up the mission for everyone, since they seem to have nothing better to do. I am not saying people should be punished for making mistakes, what I am saying is that, if the same mistakes keep being made repeatedly, then perhaps your strategy or play-style needs to be re-evaluated.
For the first couple of deaths only losing a small percentage of experience would be no big deal. But from what I have observed repeated by alot of groups, is that they know on quite a few missions, that hell they really do not need skill so they just blindly rush into a fight to die and keep coming back to slowly whittle away at the nps's. This is NOT a strategy, this is called zerging. And quite honestly it involves no skill at all and, it offers absolutely no incentive for people to learn how to play their characters at all, and become overall a useful member to a team of players.
I do know that if something like this were implemented it would really upset people for awhile, but I know with certainty, that after awhile people would begin to be more careful with their characters and ultimately with EVERYONE's valuable time and play experience.
So, go ahead and start the flame wars about this subject.
What I am proposing is, and has been tried and true on many other games. Some in the same forms, and some even more difficult.
But basically what I am suggesting is that upon death, especially in the higher end areas of the game, ship damage is not a solution, because clearly it is not working. And also an increasing timer for death on missions really is not working either.
So what I am suggesting, is upon character death, whether it is a ground or a space mission, is that there is an exponential experience death penalty. Some people may think this is harsh, but when it really comes down to it, it is not. It is far kinder to everyone else who is suffering at the hands of someone who either does not want to learn their character class, or is a troll and just wants to mess up the mission for everyone, since they seem to have nothing better to do. I am not saying people should be punished for making mistakes, what I am saying is that, if the same mistakes keep being made repeatedly, then perhaps your strategy or play-style needs to be re-evaluated.
For the first couple of deaths only losing a small percentage of experience would be no big deal. But from what I have observed repeated by alot of groups, is that they know on quite a few missions, that hell they really do not need skill so they just blindly rush into a fight to die and keep coming back to slowly whittle away at the nps's. This is NOT a strategy, this is called zerging. And quite honestly it involves no skill at all and, it offers absolutely no incentive for people to learn how to play their characters at all, and become overall a useful member to a team of players.
I do know that if something like this were implemented it would really upset people for awhile, but I know with certainty, that after awhile people would begin to be more careful with their characters and ultimately with EVERYONE's valuable time and play experience.
So, go ahead and start the flame wars about this subject.
Post edited by heckyll on
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Besides, it wouldn't work for the end of game content. Most end of game players are level 50. They don't care about experience anymore because they don't need it.
It's a good idea in theory, but it only works if you're actually earning experience. At level 50 with all bridge officers maxed out, the only thing experience/expertise is good for is starbases (and the expertise requirement usually fills up as soon as the project goes live).
If you keep dying repeatedly, simply put you de-level.
At that point, you either earn your experience back so you can get to use your lvl 50 ship/gear. or you stay somewhere in lvl 49 based on how many times you have died.
As far as the point of being "fair". My main character is a Tac, I use escorts myself, I know how much glass our ships are made of. But the point of it is that is the sacrifice we make to be a DPS class, so ultimately, it would force us to learn how to modify our skill-sets and try not to be the agro-TRIBBLE that tactical escorts tend to be.
let me give an example your doing cge tanking the final boss oops die through lag, bug what ever and poof your mk12 gears pops off what then. "well frack can't tank anymore guys my butts bare someone else has to do it." bang group wipe, not good is it, you get the blame for deleveling entire group because of lag or bug or whatever.
yeah that will go over well.
lol realistically what would happen would be ppl end up not wanting to die so badly that it would be a fail from the start.
So your solution would be to change skill sets so that your skills don't match your class? That doesn't even make sense.
/notsigned
O.k. not sure how to make it any clearer...But I will try...It is very simple...changing of skill-sets? No, adaptability in knowing how and when to use their classes actions/abilities, hell everyone should already know how and when to do that, but this reinforces my point.
TACTICAL=DPS
ENGINEER=TANK
SCIENCE= HEALER
Very simple... DPS (which is my primary character) simply put could stand to use agro "management". What this means is knowing when to throw out a little dps, or alot based on timing of teamwork, and trying to let an Engineer(tank) if one is available to gain and hold agro, and try not to peel it from the tank. If no Engineer is available, than adjust your play-style accordingly to the situation at hand. Some will say, "we already do this" well if you do and you are successful than you do not need to be told this. This game from the very beginning was never about, "whom ever deals the most dps wins the day", it was always supposed to be about teamwork, and the different skill sets working cohesively together to achieve success.
As far as last post about de-leveling in any of the STF missions is, that is the nature of "Special Task Force" missions they are not meant to be a walk in the park. They were originally meant for people to work as a team, and to work together to achieve success through their skill-sets, not through zerg-work, even if someone else's mistake continues to cost people the missions or worse experience loss. Then people will also learn real quick who not to team up with due to their lack of desire to improve their skills.
I do not like the idea about loosing experience because in a mission you can do similar errors because what you have to do is simply difficult even if you are a good player.
I think a better idea should be having some new elite missions (both ground and space) where being destroyed means that you are out. Suppose (just an example) a new stf mission, a team of 5 or more players should destroy a borg base... if you will be destroyed, the mission should be completed by the remaining members of the team and you get no reward or just a little one. You can also have different difficult levels... at easy level you can respawn only once, at difficult level you can't respawn. Collaboration should be a must to complete this new kind of missions (attack ships to deal damage, support ships to heal, buff and debuff).
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
As has been said in liberality hundreds of posts before, and agreed upon by Cryptic: "No".
Be happy there's even a DP in the first place... There wasn't at launch.
Doing so would drive casual players and their money away from the game,
therefore not going to be implemented.
The discussion may go on and on and on, but at the end of the day, that's the most solid reason why all missions in the game become easier as time progresses - the very casual players and their money.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Cryptic already tried that route with the increasing respawn timer... did it work? No. Tanks still don't tank, because Kirks don't care about the success of the mission, they care about their own survival only.
The easiest way to survive is not getting fired at, even when your Ship is designed to take the punishment, so rainbowOddy just shows his pretty technicolor display at the Borg and the rest of the team still carry him.
And you want to punish good players even more? Make no mistake, the player that dies first is usually the best (or least bad) player on the team, not rainbowOddy.
RainbowOddy only dies from Donatra's Thalaron pulse, because he'll never learn to get out of the way (which is pathetically easy).
What makes you think they'd be a good addition to a game DROWNING in NPCs that can one-shot the toughest player character with ease?
So what about science officers in escorts? Or cruisers? Engineers in escorts or science vessels? Tacticals in cruisers or science vessels?
If you want my Science Officer to try to heal you when I'm in my Defiant retrofit, don't expect much. Or are you saying each career should only fly one type of ship? That would change the game completely, as well as severely limit the options available for people.
Or are you only applying this to ground? I tank Armek all the time on my science officer...should I only let the engineer from now on? What if there isn't one? Should I be restricted to just using my medic kit to heal, and just toss out the other 6 kits I have that aren't all full of heals?
One of the things I love about STO is that there classes don't fall into the arbitrary classifications of tank/healer/dps. Everyone can do a little bit of everything - I remember groups of 5 tac officers doing old version of Infected back when it was a space and ground combined, a lot longer, and a lot harder. They could do this because they came prepared with consumables, and also used Rally Cry for healing. The strategies they used were naturally different from what a more balanced group would use, but it could be done, and I think that's a great thing.
joking aside. people are playing for fun , not to get punished after a days work on there favorite hobby , it might be frustrating if your a dedicated player to have a less skilled player in your group but my advice to that is .avoid them by playing with guilds or friends ,
the days of death penalties like you have in everquest 1 are long gone , PW dosent want to lose players through frustrating death penalties
However, I (and others) would gladly concur with your suggestion if your account can be used as a test bed for...you know to collect stats about your feelings
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
And, incidently, never going to happen. PWE will not institute something that punishes players for playing poorly in a free to play game.
PWE/Cryptic doesn't care if the playerbase is good or bad at the game. The do care if they stick around long enough to spend some money. Start punishing players (bad players, casual players who might have sub par gear) with death penalties and you will see a mass exodus of the people most likely to spend some coin on the game.
Want good players who know the mechanics of the game and their role on the team? Quit PUGGING and start private queues with pre-made teams.
I too remember games with harsher penalties and frankly we were a LOT less worried about 'playing our class right' and MORE concerned about finding strategies that worked regardless of how hard they were to implement. My fiance and I were talking about this the other night. Between the whole VOIP phenomenon and the reliance on gear solely reminds me a lot of RL. Some people that are big into these things have a hard time adjusting when things don't go 100% to plan. It's something I've seen daily in the workplace. Then they have to call someone else to clean it up. That's also the problem with a lot of other RL issues which I won't go into but we're lacking in creativity and critical thinking anymore namely because we feel we (western culture) have to somehow catch up to other countries when we're really in someways loosing that creativity and ability to react when things go wrong.
Play the game as the mechanic's allow you and what works best for YOU and leave other's alone to find their niche too. MMOs aren't supposed to be an I win game but thanks to WOW and many other's including STO to a point with the C-store people think that it is. MMOs aren't supposed to be a short term time and money investment. They were originally games you played (in a few cases for decades) and took years to develop in your free time. Yes you always wanted to see 'endgame' BUT the journey was just as fun. Of course before the flood of newer players there was also more variance in gear styles. So if you wanted to make a tank that was all about speed vs Ogre smash you could do it. The problem isn't with the games it's the players and their lack if creativity AND ability to adapt if things don't go their way.
/rant off
Changed one letter. Meant to say some not same people. Don't want to put everyone into a category.
Ahh yes, the old EverQuest death penalty: Loss of XP and your level.
DING! *dies* dammit!
DING! *dies* dammit!
DING! *dies* dammit!
DING! *dies* dammit!
DING! *dies* dammit!
DING! *dies* dammit!
DING! *dies* dammit!
DING! *dies* dammit!
Or in this case:
"CONGRATULATIONS VICE-ADMIRAL!" *dies* dammit!
"CONGRATULATIONS VICE-ADMIRAL!" *dies* dammit!
"CONGRATULATIONS VICE-ADMIRAL!" *dies* dammit!
"CONGRATULATIONS VICE-ADMIRAL!" *dies* dammit!
"CONGRATULATIONS VICE-ADMIRAL!" *dies* dammit!
"CONGRATULATIONS VICE-ADMIRAL!" *dies* dammit!
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yeah.... Welcome to free to play dear OP. You're gonna interact with all sorts, the good, the bad and the ugly.
It's best not to upset all the nice players, (and their lovely disposable income), with pesky new death penalties and make them move on to another games out of anger and frustration.
this is not final fantasy xi. that kind of death penalty would not work here.
i agree that the accrued respawn timer is not working either. i hope that gets changed back.
Zactly. Flying around in a glass cannon makes you vulnerable, but is often very needed to complete Elite STFs quickly. The OP simply didn't think his proposal thru very well. Harsher penalties for death will not encourage bettter fitting, but will only cause people to fly around in fail-fits, that tank like a TRIBBLE, so as not to die, but can't get the job done properly (and in time).
Also, and this is key, STO should never ever make the mistake of trying to turn their game into EVE Online; if you want harshness and absurd consequences (like losing your expensive ship, for ever), then simply go play the latter, and leave STO alone, please.
I agree sounds good but I would only implement a punishment for "Elite" so its players choice and also introducing an Elite pvp map for the hardcore pvp's.
So if people didn't want a Death penalty they can just play it on normal also with a warning screen comes up if you change story missions to Elite difficulty or que for an elite stf or as above an Elite pvp match.
As for a Death penalty, you can't loose your ship entirely otherwise it would make the C-Store look like a bit of a scam but you could have your ship badly damaged so it needs to go back to space dock for 24hrs for repairs forcing players to use other ships they may have and also keeping the in mission repairs "Critical components etc".
I don't think we would see so many noobs in Elite STF's if they new if they did badly they would loose their ship for a day but at the same time if there was a death penalty for elites the rewards should be a lot greater.
As a primarily escort pilot, I can tell you that nine times out of ten, when I die, It's because I'm holding aggro on a team made up of cruisers and sci ships, none of which make any attempt to heal me. I've seen cruisers with threat control maxed out take aggro and actually tank while I tear into a tact cube. I've had sci ships pass me a TSS here and there. But a guestimated 90% of the time I play, these classes sit back away from the target, shooting their beams, and popping off their offensives, and being incredibly ineffective. And then I die. And then I die some more. Because the tanks aren't tanking and the healers aren't healing.
So what I am getting at is that before we start punishing the escort pilots for doing what they are supposed to, let's find a way to get other players to fill their roles more effectively and be team players. For one, all Cruisers should come with a threat boost. Engineers should get a threat captain's skill that draws fire. Science captains should get team heal captain abilities that only work on teammates and doesn't share CD with anything else. Basically, Cryptic should find a way to make these roles more intuitive and accessible, to encourage players to do their part. Put a shiny "heal somebody!" button in front of them. That's a start. Until that happens, OP, you gonna die.
Hmm it gets quite difficult when you put it like that, how many times have my Tac toons died multiple times because I was in a team of "Rambo's One Man Army" lol. I love my Siege destroyer but if I'm in a fail team I will die the toon is built for dps not healing and I can pull aggro to easily with the amount of dps I can pull out of that ship.
As you said in your first paragraph about people not knowing their roles to begin with, One thing I have found is for some strange reason if they choose a different class of ship than what is designed for that class they seem to think they can use that ship the same way they would use on designed for that class. I had a heated debate with a fellow a while ago who wanted to use a Carrier with a TAc toon then proceeded to argue that a Tac toon could use a Carrier better than a Science toon. Last I checked they where built with Science Boffs in mind same as its console.
Now I'm not saying a different class can't use different class ships but you can't say a Tac officer can out heal a Science officer just because of the ship they may have. Hell I use an Escort Carrier on a Fed Engineer and a Cruiser for a Klingon Tac but there are some good reasons behind that and when I'm on my Engineer I heal and extend shields as often as I can where as my Tac in a cruiser well thats mainly cause I'm sick of dying because I don't get healed and I needed the extra console space.
Problem with people using different ships to different classes is a lot of people don't actually look at the color of your icon next to your name they look at the ship your inn and assume from there, yesterday I was in a cure pug in a Bortasqu instantly it was assumed I was an engineer and could tank, just lucky for me that ship can take a bit of punishment but I was tactical so I could dish it out especially with my new found love of missiles.
As far as implementing a Death penalty I reckon they could still do it for example for each class no matter what ship they are in have a minimum of what they have to achieve if not you cop the penalty. So with Tac there would be a min DPS to Deaths in a mission and the same for other classes given both Engineers and Science can heal just as effectively as each other I would keep the Engineers on heal and put the Science on debuffs.
I persoanlly do have a fleet, I do have friends in the game, but I find it hard to meet up with folk at the same time for things. Frankly put, applying a penalty to something that is already grindy, is just going to make it MORE grindy...
TL:DR
No OP, just No