You ARE ignorant. Ignorant of the fact that the 2009 movie specifically said that the events in the period between 2233-2258 takes place in an Alternate Reality. They said it in the movie. That's not an opinion. That's FACT.
Well you are a rude sod then arn't you, I simple disagreed with you regarding some of the Star Trek events and proved that there was a Borg history but instead you wanted to hurl insults and not actually answer the question in relation to Whoopi Goldberg instead another fellow did it in a polite way.
Further more I didn't know what was said in a fictional film automatically means fact, do you know what fiction means?
Look at the special features of the movie including the interviews with the cast and producer, now its stated in their that the film is about "How Kirk became the Captain of the Enterprise" they did not say at all anywhere anytime in the interviews it was set in an alternate universe now thats a fact buddy!
But as I said before I don't care what you want to think its your choice but to hurl insults at people because they disagree with you is pretty low mate.
Where exactly the El-Aurian homeworld is located is unknown, just that it's 'several thousand lightyears' away from Federation space. Many El-Aurians travelled, as Guinan was on Earth in 1893, those that were at their home system were all assimilated or killed.
And this is why I didn't like the borg Episode in Enterprise, it contradicts everything. Starfleet new of the Borg before Q through Picards Enterprise to meet them, Guinan was on the planet at the time with Superior technology. Don't you think her own people would picked up on this and left earth immediately?
Her home world is unknown because it was destroyed by the borg.
Now hang on there because they introduced the Borg in Enterprise, its Starfleet not the Federation as it didn't exist at that time. You see how this is TRIBBLE with everything.
After all, she thought that if the Federation was ready, they might have been able to establish a relationship with the Borg. The Borg still obviously wasn't a subject she was eager to talk about, given that she never once mentioned them to Picard until the events of Q Who.
What no she didn't she hated the Borg and never once suggested the Federation at that time could be friends with the borg and of course it wasn't mentioned because it hadn't been written yet.
Starfleet probably did poke at it. But the records were sealed, and only a few would have known about it. There's also only so much that you can learn from wreckage.
But Picard was the Man lol if it was on record they would know about it instantly given the computer would have told them about classified files soon as they attempted to scan the Borg Cube and Picard would have got the info but because of the events of Enterprise hadn't even been thought of at that time and introducing the Borg stuffed that whole time line up.
Borg vessels are further designed so that when the ship is cricitally damaged, all vital technology self-destructs. At the end of Best of Both Worlds, the Borg cube self-destructs above Earth after it gets shut down, leaving very little, if anything for the Federation to study. Even after just trying to disable a Borg Probe, the salavagable wreckage from it only littered the floor of a single cargo bay on Voyager. Part of the sphere surviving relatively well like that would likely be extremely rare, and be simply because part of that self-destruct process failed. If the Enterprise-E even suspected that it might of survived, then they would have retrieved the wreckage themselves to both prevent contamination of the timeline, and because it would be a rare opportunity to study relatively intact Borg technology.
Thats nice in theory but go watch the episode I'm talking about and you will see there is plenty to study.
Because Spock can't go to another dimension? Jumping dimensions isn't anything new for Star Trek, just they're normally mirror universes, while the JJverse is a little different. But then, the method of reaching it was rather different as well. The interaction between the nova and the red matter singularity allowed them to shift through dimensions and time. It's not the first time the pair of those have occurred either. The mirror universe Tholians in 2063 stole the USS Defiant from the prime universe in 2268 after all.
Incidentally, time travel is always going to be at least of the temporal variety. I'm not sure how you'd get non-temporal time travel.
I think between what Meurik has said and what I've added on here, I think it about covers it. Everything says that the JJverse is an alternate universe, not a retelling of the prime universe events. I haven't seen a thing that even indicates that it's set in the prime universe.
As for my opinions about the movie I think I answered Meurik on that one and as I said to him/her this is my opinion I'm aloud to have an opinion as your aloud to have yours but this does not mean that either of us are correct or wrong.
Well you are a rude sod then arn't you, I simple disagreed with you regarding some of the Star Trek events and proved that there was a Borg history but instead you wanted to hurl insults and not actually answer the question in relation to Whoopi Goldberg instead another fellow did it in a polite way.
I was rude in return for the rudeness you showed in your previous post.
Further more I didn't know what was said in a fictional film automatically means fact, do you know what fiction means?
Obviously you are just acting "stupid" to make my post look worse. When I said that the events of the 2009 movie are based in an Alternate Reality = Fact, I was ofcourse speaking in regards to what happened IN THE MOVIE. I really don't understand why it's so difficult for you to grasp, that the events of the 2009 movie doesn't negate the previous canon, but rather acknowledges it by stating that the NEW events take place in an ALTERNATE REALITY.
Look at the special features of the movie including the interviews with the cast and producer, now its stated in their that the film is about "How Kirk became the Captain of the Enterprise" they did not say at all anywhere anytime in the interviews it was set in an alternate universe now thats a fact buddy!
This goes back to my previous paragraph. They stated in the movie that it's an Alternate Reality, and that's good enough for me.
And this is why I didn't like the borg Episode in Enterprise, it contradicts everything. Starfleet new of the Borg before Q through Picards Enterprise to meet them, Guinan was on the planet at the time with Superior technology. Don't you think her own people would picked up on this and left earth immediately?
Her home world is unknown because it was destroyed by the borg.
1893: Guinan visiting Earth posing as a Human
2063: First Contact with Vulcans + Destruction of Borg Sphere in orbit
2153: Wreckage found in Antarctica including ship parts + cybernetic corpses
2293: USS Enterprise-B launched, refugees of El-Aurians rescued
2353: USS Raven seeks out the Borg who are "rumors and sensor echoes"
2356: Magnus and Erin Hansen assimilated, possibly first Humans
2364: Outposts destroyed along Neutral Zone, destruction caused by Borg
2365: "First Contact" with the Borg, 8500 lightyears from Federation
2366: Borg assimilate Picard and attempt to assimilate Earth
2373: Borg attempt to assimilate Earth 2nd time, fails and travels back to 2063
These are all the KNOWN years in which events surrounding the Borg and/or Guinan took place.
Between Guinans visit in 1893 and the subsequent finding of the Borg wreckage in 2153, a full 160 years pass. You seem to assume that she always remained on Earth after her visit in 1893, which the events fo "Generations" appear to contradict, since she was on a refugee transport in 2293.
The Voyager episode "Dark Frontier" implies that the Borg were known as early as 12 years before Picard's "first contact" with them in 2365, merely as rumors and sensor echoes. How could these rumors exist, unless the Federation/Starfleet had some previous knowledge of the Borg, perhaps from around 2153 ? How does the Enterprise episode contradict "established canon" in regards to the Borg?
Yeah. The only debate I can see is whether the JJverse was ALWAYS an alternate universe (a fan assertion I've seen) or whether Nero's emergence caused it to splinter off, either via standard rules of time travel where time travel creates universes (I believe this is Orci and Kurtzman's assertion... and that Spock's life was not changed until he reached Earth, which was transformed politically and technologically by reverse engineering the Kelvin's scans of the Narada) or whether the red matter singularity CAUSED the universe to splinter off.
My pet theory on Trek time travel is rooted in what Spock said in "City on the Edge of Forever":
"There is a theory. There could be some logic to the belief that time is fluid, like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash."
Running with that, some time travel is like paddling against the current. Some is climbing out of the river and running alongside it backwards. And some is being rocketed back and hurtling into the stream with enough force to splinter its course.
Treat Spock's statement literally, not as metaphor.
Just treat time like a river in Trek. It can be dammed, splintered, fed by tributaries, redirected, siphoned for irrigation, stored, turned backwards. Its flow can be constant or intermittent. It can be used for power. It can have rapids and calm stretches. Its rate can be variable and also vary by location. It can swell and flood or dry up. There can be stable canals linking timelines.
It's like a river.
That has a lot of merit. It's possible that the Singularity had a bigger effect on the timeline than just sending 2 ships back through time.
And this is why I didn't like the borg Episode in Enterprise, it contradicts everything. Starfleet new of the Borg before Q through Picards Enterprise to meet them, Guinan was on the planet at the time with Superior technology. Don't you think her own people would picked up on this and left earth immediately?
Her home world is unknown because it was destroyed by the borg.
Meurik again pretty well covered this. But, how many El-Aurians do you think are on Earth? 1? 2?
Now hang on there because they introduced the Borg in Enterprise, its Starfleet not the Federation as it didn't exist at that time. You see how this is TRIBBLE with everything.
Anything Starfleet knew, the Federation would have known after it was formed. And what did Starfleet know about the Borg? Just that they were cyborgs and had sent out a message that may never even be recieved. They didn't even know the name of the Borg. Starfleet Intelligence probably made numerous discreet inquiries with surrounding species about them, but noone will really learn of the Borg until the Enterprise-D encounters them.
What no she didn't she hated the Borg and never once suggested the Federation at that time could be friends with the borg and of course it wasn't mentioned because it hadn't been written yet.
I think you should go back and watch Q Who again. Never said she hated the Borg, just that she wouldn't have liked to have talked about the destruction of her entire race by the hands of the Borg (again, she never told Picard despite it being stated that they knew each since the Stargazer) but would someone really be that friendly with a race that wiped out nearly their entire race?
But Picard was the Man lol if it was on record they would know about it instantly given the computer would have told them about classified files soon as they attempted to scan the Borg Cube and Picard would have got the info but because of the events of Enterprise hadn't even been thought of at that time and introducing the Borg stuffed that whole time line up.
They're not going to tell the captain of the flagship everything you know. There wasn't even anything to connect what little the Federation knew of the Borg from the Enterprise episode to the destruction of the colonies they found at the end of season 1. Do you really think they'll pull aside Picard and say "Hey, nearly 200 odd years ago, we lost some researchers. Something about cybernetics. That's about all we know, but we thought it was really, really necessary information for you!"
Thats nice in theory but go watch the episode I'm talking about and you will see there is plenty to study.
They always show more wreckage because it looks better on screen than the entire ship being vapourised. But you can just as easily say that the antimatter containment would have taken a few more seconds to fail, hence why the Enterprise left the area pretty quickly. Hanging around an exploding ship isn't a good idea, especially when your own defenses are down. It's also not just theory, the self-destruction of technology on Borg vessels isn't something I just came up with, Seven stated it in the same episode when Voyager blew up that probe.
As for my opinions about the movie I think I answered Meurik on that one and as I said to him/her this is my opinion I'm aloud to have an opinion as your aloud to have yours but this does not mean that either of us are correct or wrong.
You were quite blatantly telling us to start with as though it was fact. Even still, just because it's 'your opinion' doesn't mean it's still not wrong. It's clearly stated to be an alternate reality. It's pretty clearly an alternate reality. But you're complaining about how it doesn't fit with the Original Series because you think it's supposed to, when it was never meant to. "It's my opinion" doesn't make it any less incorrect.
Archer was perhaps the best Captain of them all, and Enterprise was the best series. Archer was a realistic captain, aboard a realistic ship, the series was more down to earth, never before had we saw Starfleet at such an early time, everything was new with them, Military and Diplomatic tactics from Earths past wouldn't work the same on different new species. And the NX-01 unlike the other ships, say for Voyager, was mostly alone. the Columbia wasn't completed til late in the series, and Enterprise explained somethings that other series's has left a mystery, as for the borg they were left over from when the borg went back in time, as they did several times. the JJ film has nothing to do with any of this, say for Archer and Porthos were mentioned. stop trolling against Enterprise and Scott, it was the best, most realistic series, it even showed references to Khan and Data
The Voyager episode "Dark Frontier" implies that the Borg were known as early as 12 years before Picard's "first contact" with them in 2365, merely as rumors and sensor echoes. How could these rumors exist, unless the Federation/Starfleet had some previous knowledge of the Borg, perhaps from around 2153 ? How does the Enterprise episode contradict "established canon" in regards to the Borg?
.....
:eek:
My word, you're right! I also considered First Contact having made an alternate timeline that meant everything after it (Voyager series 4 onwards) and that episode of Enterprise happened in a minutely different timeline to everything prior to it, where all references to the Borg hadn't happened because they hadn't gone back in time at that point... in... time.
I'm starting to sound like Deanna.
But when you put it that way.... It does all gel into one constant timeline, where First Contact was a pre destination paradox that had to happen to create that episode of Enterprise, so there could be rumours and sensor ghosts floating around some dusty Federation archive that the Hansons could get their hands on thanks to some drunk cadet talking about some 'daft old story' he read while he was doing inventory that day, and they run off to do what research they could (perhaps even going so far as to tailing that Cube that was floating about the Neutral Zone at the end of TNG series 1?), but dissapeared on a wild goose chase and first proper contact was made in Q Who! It all makes sense!
That kinda got away from me. But you get my point.
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A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Funny how this topic comepletely sidetracks and people start discussing Borg stuff......
Anyway,
I found Archer as a written character (and the way he was acted) in the very least a person of interesting psychology.
Considering that Starfleet is founded in certain base values, Janeway was at many times morally very questionable.
But Archer (ok, there were less rules for him), he was morally irresponsible. I remember him robbing people blind in the middle of space, leaving them with nothing, because the mission was more important and he took what he needed. And that act of piracy was the least of his questionable deeds.
I liked the character, his desperation, fear, inflexibility, weakness and simple mindedness, it made him interesting and realistic. But far from the perfect Captain. That's probably why he was never mentioned by Kirk and Picard, they were not very proud of that episode in the Starfleet history.
But don't forget Archer was the guy that was not meant to get that Captain seat in the first place. The man that actually was supposed to go would have been a far more solid Captain. Archer was basically a test pilot before he got command, not exactly a great qualification.
Considering that Starfleet is founded in certain base values, Janeway was at many times morally very questionable.
But Archer (ok, there were less rules for him), he was morally irresponsible. I remember him robbing people blind in the middle of space, leaving them with nothing, because the mission was more important and he took what he needed. And that act of piracy was the least of his questionable deeds.
Well, with Janeway she could never quite make up her mind if getting her crew home faster was worth immoral acts. Sometimes it made sense that she would go a certain distance, other times it was a case of "You allowed that before, why not this?"
For Archer, well, the mission in that particular case I'd say most people would be willing to bend or outright break many of the rules. You've got to find an alien race that you know next to nothing about, in a hostile and unusual region of space, and you've got an unknown but fairly short time limit to do it all in. The cost of failure is the complete destruction of Earth and the near extinction of humanity. I'd say most people would resort to a bit of piracy to allow the engines to keep going when your entire race hangs in the balance, or other more questionable methods of trying to get some kind of information about where they should start looking. He didn't like it, but he felt it was necessary.
Outside of that, he was pretty morally solid. Discovers that the Andorians were right about P'jem being used as a listening post, and considers it more important than trying to hide the truth in favour of their Vulcan allies. Granted though, Archer's personal distaste for Vulcans holding back humanity's progress in general might have played a part in that. Sure, he doesn't present himself to the Klingons so they can imprison him, but how many people would?
Archer was perhaps the best Captain of them all, and Enterprise was the best series. Archer was a realistic captain, aboard a realistic ship, the series was more down to earth, never before had we saw Starfleet at such an early time, everything was new with them, Military and Diplomatic tactics from Earths past wouldn't work the same on different new species. And the NX-01 unlike the other ships, say for Voyager, was mostly alone. the Columbia wasn't completed til late in the series, and Enterprise explained somethings that other series's has left a mystery, as for the borg they were left over from when the borg went back in time, as they did several times. the JJ film has nothing to do with any of this, say for Archer and Porthos were mentioned. stop trolling against Enterprise and Scott, it was the best, most realistic series, it even showed references to Khan and Data
I loved that part of Enterprise! The Time War was stupid, but showing how Humans first started interacting on the galactic stage with the Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites was AWESOME!
Funny how this topic comepletely sidetracks and people start discussing Borg stuff......
Anyway,
I found Archer as a written character (and the way he was acted) in the very least a person of interesting psychology.
Considering that Starfleet is founded in certain base values, Janeway was at many times morally very questionable.
But Archer (ok, there were less rules for him), he was morally irresponsible. I remember him robbing people blind in the middle of space, leaving them with nothing, because the mission was more important and he took what he needed. And that act of piracy was the least of his questionable deeds.
I liked the character, his desperation, fear, inflexibility, weakness and simple mindedness, it made him interesting and realistic. But far from the perfect Captain. That's probably why he was never mentioned by Kirk and Picard, they were not very proud of that episode in the Starfleet history.
But don't forget Archer was the guy that was not meant to get that Captain seat in the first place. The man that actually was supposed to go would have been a far more solid Captain. Archer was basically a test pilot before he got command, not exactly a great qualification.
Well, in Archer's defense(morally), he had to make a "lesser of two evils" choice. The act of Piracy you mentioned was done because he had 2 choices, fail in his mission and watch the Xindi blow up Earth, or do something he knew was morally wrong. It's one of those textbook "there is no right answer" scenarios.
Truthfully, I think he did a good job og making peace between the various warring factions he encountered. Thy'lek Shran and Silik both tried to kill him the first time they met. But both of them eventually respected him and Silik died helping him.
Also, Archer's act of piracy, didn't leave the alien crew "stranded with nothing". True, the theft of the warp coil would result in the alien crews journey taking 3 years to get home (as opposed to a matter of days/weeks). Archer atleast left them with some medical supplies and food. He asked them politely to part with the technology, so that he could save his homeworld. The aliens refused.
Ethically, the theft was certainly wrong. And the decision was objected to by several of the senior staff. But morally, it was the only choice available to him. Not getting the warp coil, would result in a missed opportunity to negotiate a peace, and the destruction of Earth.
Archer wasn't a bad captain. Unlike the Captains who would follow, he had no rules and regulations to guide him. No Prime Directive, nothing that said what he could and couldn't do. The episode 'Doctors Orders' in Season 1, dealt very much with what would become the beginnings of the Prime Directive. The cardinal rule of which, is Non-Interference in the national development of an alien society.
The one thing I would've changed throughout the first 2 seasons, is any and all references to the Temporal Cold War. Early, it should've focused more on meeting new species, estabilishing peaceful relations with them, and essentially building towards what Season 4 ended up being: The beginnings of the "Coalition of Planets".
Had the show gone on for another 3 seasons, they could've accommodated a full-on "Romulan/Earth War", the likes of which reminiscent of the Dominion War, which became a highly successful episode arc on DS9. I would much rather have seen the Romulan/Earth War, instead of the Temporal Cold War.
Also with Archer and that theft, you could tell he was fighting his consience throughout the episode. He didn't want to do it, but he felt he was forced to. He didn't disable their weapons, despite them damaging an already critically damaged Enterprise even further, nor did he injure any of the crew as best he could. And as noted, he did leave them food and medical supplies.
But the 3rd episode of season 4, when they got back to Earth... wow. That just shows how much that season really affected Archer. I don't think he fully recovered and became the person he was pre-Xindi. Archer was more like Columbos, charting unknown territory, with no contact with home, no backup, no rules, being forced to make things up on the spot with no code of conduct. He was a pioneer. He was bound to get things wrong.
If mission failure wasn't the total destruction of all Humanity, he would not have taken that coil. It was awesome the way that episode was done (and Casey Biggs was in it!)
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A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Aside from this being in the wrong section, I like Scott Bakula in it and thought he did a great job. A starship captain isn't about being the best pilot, but the best person.
Also, Archer's act of piracy, didn't leave the alien crew "stranded with nothing". True, the theft of the warp coil would result in the alien crews journey taking 3 years to get home (as opposed to a matter of days/weeks). Archer atleast left them with some medical supplies and food. He asked them politely to part with the technology, so that he could save his homeworld. The aliens refused.
Ethically, the theft was certainly wrong. And the decision was objected to by several of the senior staff. But morally, it was the only choice available to him. Not getting the warp coil, would result in a missed opportunity to negotiate a peace, and the destruction of Earth.
Archer wasn't a bad captain. Unlike the Captains who would follow, he had no rules and regulations to guide him. No Prime Directive, nothing that said what he could and couldn't do. The episode 'Doctors Orders' in Season 1, dealt very much with what would become the beginnings of the Prime Directive. The cardinal rule of which, is Non-Interference in the national development of an alien society.
The one thing I would've changed throughout the first 2 seasons, is any and all references to the Temporal Cold War. Early, it should've focused more on meeting new species, estabilishing peaceful relations with them, and essentially building towards what Season 4 ended up being: The beginnings of the "Coalition of Planets".
Had the show gone on for another 3 seasons, they could've accommodated a full-on "Romulan/Earth War", the likes of which reminiscent of the Dominion War, which became a highly successful episode arc on DS9. I would much rather have seen the Romulan/Earth War, instead of the Temporal Cold War.
Yeah, the Temporal Cold War was a horrible idea.
I liked the parts about exploration. But my favorite story Arc? The one where Archer convinces the Andorians to work with the Vulcans and Tellarites to thwart the Romulans.
He was far from the best person. He constantly had a chip on his shoulder, yelled at his crew for no good reason, and usually maintained the demeanor of a petulant 12 year old.
I like Enterprise, but watching the episodes back-to-back, Archer becomes insufferable.
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STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
Honestly, I've always thought Archer was the most realistic of the captains. Sure he has quite a few character flaws, but to me, that makes him more human than the almost robot-like captains of the 24th century. Sisko would be a close second as most realistic.
And I agree with everyone else about the Temperal Cold War. They should have just stuck with exploring and building the foundation for the Federation. Then in later seasons go into the Earth-Romulus War.
The writing was not great but i dont think scott can be blamed for what he had to say. give him the scripts that picard or sisko had and im sure he would have done an admirable job. the man can only say the words they give him. i cant question his acting.
i do sort of like that he's not perfect and gets things wrong and sometimes seems to be showing the strain of command and the job. he is literally the first human to be doing this stuff and he really got thrown in at the deep end, especially with the temporal cold war and the xindi. thats some pretty big stuff to deal with for anyone.
He was far from the best person. He constantly had a chip on his shoulder, yelled at his crew for no good reason, and usually maintained the demeanor of a petulant 12 year old.
I like Enterprise, but watching the episodes back-to-back, Archer becomes insufferable.
All I've seen you do so far is troll on Archer, you dont like him, stop watching, the only one I see acting like a 12 year old is you Good day! I said Good Day!
All I've seen you do so far is troll on Archer, you dont like him, stop watching, the only one I see acting like a 12 year old is you Good day! I said Good Day!
I like the show. I dub you the Archer of this thread.
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STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
i remember scott baukla as a kid in quantum leap and other shows, and i remember telling my dad they should of made this guy Captain of the Enterprise......a few years later they did. He did a fine job with what he had to work with.
Archer was a difficult character to pull off, he was supposed to be discovering and exploring the universe, without stepping on kirks toes, with tech that was supposed to be sub standard to 1960s special effects. His diplomatic skills were below average for being so poorly armed. The NX made the mistakes that star fleet learned from.
I think archer was a less savvy kirk, i think the writing could have been better......
So, I'm well into Season 4, and I've determined it is the writing for the most part. For the rest, I think Bakula is so pissed at the writing, that his performance carries over into the areas that the writing isn't at fault. Of course, it might be the directing. It is sad that Bakula was used so poorly. Archer is still only a step above Janeway, and he shouldn't have been.
My new complaint is that they should have gone on and developed the T'Pol - Trip relationship instead of constantly hinting at it.
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STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
Archer was perhaps the best Captain of them all, and Enterprise was the best series. Archer was a realistic captain, aboard a realistic ship, the series was more down to earth, never before had we saw Starfleet at such an early time, everything was new with them, Military and Diplomatic tactics from Earths past wouldn't work the same on different new species. And the NX-01 unlike the other ships, say for Voyager, was mostly alone. the Columbia wasn't completed til late in the series, and Enterprise explained somethings that other series's has left a mystery, as for the borg they were left over from when the borg went back in time, as they did several times. the JJ film has nothing to do with any of this, say for Archer and Porthos were mentioned. stop trolling against Enterprise and Scott, it was the best, most realistic series, it even showed references to Khan and Data
I totally agree with what you say here, i also think that Archer was the best captain of them all and Enterprise was the best series but yes, the writing could have been done better but yes also it was cancelled wayyy too soon. But it did start kinda slow but IT DID GET BETTER. You have to remember during Archers time era starfleet just basically got started way before the creation of the Federation of Planets, which brings us to the episode of the borg (regeneration), those borg are the ones that was from the movie First Contact which takes place after the Federation has been created, thus Picard goes back in time yadayadayada and so on. And to the comment that something about Enterprise and JJverse version, like you said this has nothing i repeat NOTHING TO DO WITH THE JJ FILMS because JJfilms takes place duing Kirk and Spock's time era. So to end MY OPINION why i think that Archer and Enterprise was/is/maybe the best of the franchise it just shows how earth and starfleet was dealing with exploration at the beginning part of the stages. And i think that Bakula was the best choice to play as Archer.
I really don't want to get drawn into an argument, but these are my personal thoughts on Starfleet's history with the Borg...
After the events of 2135, any remainders of the 'alien technology', after Archer's reports, it would most likely either been destroyed, or put into secure storage at Starfleet Command, but probably not given the highest of priorities. There was no specific timing given as to when the El-Aurian homeworld was destroyed, or how long the refugees had been in transit (remember, that they are an extremely long lived species, so travelling for decades would not be an issue for them, so there's no reason why the homeworld might not have been somewhere in the Delta Quadrant and they had simply traveled that distance to escape Borg Space) Knowing how bureaucrats think, it's quite possible that Starfleet Command had not only 'lost interest' in the 'alien technology' when the Enterprise-B was launched, but also due to sheer arrogance, would have thought "We can only hit Warp Nine, so no one else can go any faster, so what threat can they be?" and mistakenly catagorized the 'alien species' as no direct threat. By 2350s, given changes in officers at Starfleet Command, it's likely that the 'cybernetic race' and any remaining technology, was pretty much forgotten. Much like how Londo pointed out in Babylon 5 that orders can be carried out long after the reason for the order being issued is forgotten. I suspect that the Hansens were considered as being on the fringes of the scientific community, and that it may have been easier for Starfleet to have simply given them the Raven just to shut them up and get them out of the way, rather than deal with repeated requests for information/equipment access etc. Imagine the scenario, of Magnus Hansen in a meeting with some irritated rear-admiral desk jockey:
Magnus: "Have you been able to send a ship to the Neutral Zone to check out those sensor anomalies?"
Admiral: "No..."
Magnus: "I really think you should do, Admiral, this may well be the first signs of Their activity in two hundred years..."
Admiral: "It may also be nothing, Professor Hansen... I can't allocate a starship just to track down a sensor ghost of something which has not been seen in two hundred years."
Magnus: "But what if this is Them? We need to make analysis and studies. You have to send a ship to investigate!"
Admiral's glance falls on a data PADD containing specs for an extremely long-range shuttlecraft...
Admiral: "If I agree to assign a ship, will you stop submitting daily requests for access to sensor records?"
Magnus: "Absolutely, Admiral, that's all I want..."
Admiral: "Fine. Here is a ship, now stop wasting my time, and get that brat out of my office before she damages any more of my bonsai collection!"
Could have happened...
If Starfleet Command still did not consider the rumors anything more than a two hundred year old ghost story used to scare cadets on their Midshipman cruises, it certainly didn't consider it enough of a threat to start issuing warning orders to its Captains... Given how Project Defiant got mothballed due to 'engine issues'/as Starfleet considered the Borg threat to have receded, even when it really had not, that shows perfectly the bureaucratic mindset of "It's been dealt with, so it's dealt with, no need for continued vigilance, because we're the Good Guys, and we're Kick TRIBBLE..." If that same thinking had prevailed in 2153, well, it makes two centuries of apathy totally plausible and understandable... Q, on the other hand, knew of the danger, knew the Federation wasn't prepared, didn't want his favorite pets killed, so gave them a kick in the pants to try and wake them up, without being too obvious about it (because he wouldn't want Picard to know that he was actually doing them a favor, unless it was begged for) Even the Enterprise-D's encounter with the Borg wasn't enough to shake Starfleet Command into action on the issue, or Project Defiant would have been immediately put into action, and Wolf 359 would have gone down very differently. Again, bureaucratic arrogance, plain and simple...
That's about all the sense I can make out of the retconned history, feel free to agree or disagree As for Archer as a captain, I can sum up the issue in two words: Brannon Braga.
I used to really admire his rise from a spec-script writer to producer, but he got too self-indulgent and too focused on telling His Stories, and didn't have anyone to keep him in check, Enterprise being the result...
I would like to raise a glass of Romulan Ale to Magnus Hansen for having the faith to stand by the courage of his convictions *cheers*
Aside from this being in the wrong section, I like Scott Bakula in it and thought he did a great job. A starship captain isn't about being the best pilot, but the best person.
I 100% agree, sure he was not the perfect captain, but no one is and he did the best job possible under alot of circumstances. The actor Scott Bakula did an excellent job. I wish they went on for another season or did what the stargate franchise did and do dvd tv movies.
I really don't want to get drawn into an argument, but these are my personal thoughts on Starfleet's history with the Borg...
After the events of 2135, any remainders of the 'alien technology', after Archer's reports, it would most likely either been destroyed, or put into secure storage at Starfleet Command, but probably not given the highest of priorities. There was no specific timing given as to when the El-Aurian homeworld was destroyed, or how long the refugees had been in transit (remember, that they are an extremely long lived species, so travelling for decades would not be an issue for them, so there's no reason why the homeworld might not have been somewhere in the Delta Quadrant and they had simply traveled that distance to escape Borg Space) Knowing how bureaucrats think, it's quite possible that Starfleet Command had not only 'lost interest' in the 'alien technology' when the Enterprise-B was launched, but also due to sheer arrogance, would have thought "We can only hit Warp Nine, so no one else can go any faster, so what threat can they be?" and mistakenly catagorized the 'alien species' as no direct threat. By 2350s, given changes in officers at Starfleet Command, it's likely that the 'cybernetic race' and any remaining technology, was pretty much forgotten. Much like how Londo pointed out in Babylon 5 that orders can be carried out long after the reason for the order being issued is forgotten. I suspect that the Hansens were considered as being on the fringes of the scientific community, and that it may have been easier for Starfleet to have simply given them the Raven just to shut them up and get them out of the way, rather than deal with repeated requests for information/equipment access etc. Imagine the scenario, of Magnus Hansen in a meeting with some irritated rear-admiral desk jockey:
Magnus: "Have you been able to send a ship to the Neutral Zone to check out those sensor anomalies?"
Admiral: "No..."
Magnus: "I really think you should do, Admiral, this may well be the first signs of Their activity in two hundred years..."
Admiral: "It may also be nothing, Professor Hansen... I can't allocate a starship just to track down a sensor ghost of something which has not been seen in two hundred years."
Magnus: "But what if this is Them? We need to make analysis and studies. You have to send a ship to investigate!"
Admiral's glance falls on a data PADD containing specs for an extremely long-range shuttlecraft...
Admiral: "If I agree to assign a ship, will you stop submitting daily requests for access to sensor records?"
Magnus: "Absolutely, Admiral, that's all I want..."
Admiral: "Fine. Here is a ship, now stop wasting my time, and get that brat out of my office before she damages any more of my bonsai collection!"
Could have happened...
If Starfleet Command still did not consider the rumors anything more than a two hundred year old ghost story used to scare cadets on their Midshipman cruises, it certainly didn't consider it enough of a threat to start issuing warning orders to its Captains... Given how Project Defiant got mothballed due to 'engine issues'/as Starfleet considered the Borg threat to have receded, even when it really had not, that shows perfectly the bureaucratic mindset of "It's been dealt with, so it's dealt with, no need for continued vigilance, because we're the Good Guys, and we're Kick TRIBBLE..." If that same thinking had prevailed in 2153, well, it makes two centuries of apathy totally plausible and understandable... Q, on the other hand, knew of the danger, knew the Federation wasn't prepared, didn't want his favorite pets killed, so gave them a kick in the pants to try and wake them up, without being too obvious about it (because he wouldn't want Picard to know that he was actually doing them a favor, unless it was begged for) Even the Enterprise-D's encounter with the Borg wasn't enough to shake Starfleet Command into action on the issue, or Project Defiant would have been immediately put into action, and Wolf 359 would have gone down very differently. Again, bureaucratic arrogance, plain and simple...
That's about all the sense I can make out of the retconned history, feel free to agree or disagree As for Archer as a captain, I can sum up the issue in two words: Brannon Braga.
I used to really admire his rise from a spec-script writer to producer, but he got too self-indulgent and too focused on telling His Stories, and didn't have anyone to keep him in check, Enterprise being the result...
I would like to raise a glass of Romulan Ale to Magnus Hansen for having the faith to stand by the courage of his convictions *cheers*
The defiant was made after the battle of wolf 359. Also still they did not have alot of information on the borg back then. I agree even if the threat had been reduced I would still make some ships in case. But now days in star trek almost all the ships are designed to fight some why against the borg and other races.
Also still they did not have alot of information on the borg back then.
Even discounting the historical archives which should have existed from Archer's time (but we'll ignore the historic retcon for a second) the fact that there was a confirmed encounter with a Borg cube, which was more than a match for a Galaxy Class starship, someone at Command should have put the wheels in motion for Project Defiant as soon as Picard's debriefing was concluded...
The point I was making, was Starfleet's historic apathy towards the Borg threat, and unwillingness to be pro-active in taking a stance against it. I guess that's why when the Jem'Hadar took out the Odyssey, they decided to not make the same mistake again...
I agree even if the threat had been reduced I would still make some ships in case. But now days in star trek almost all the ships are designed to fight some why against the borg and other races.
Absolutely so, it's just common sense, and yes, I would even be willing to go up against a cube in a Nova Class ship, given what I know about Borg tactics (which one would hope/assume any captain worth their salt would know... ) Not saying things would get very far beyond 'Resistance is futile...', but even a Nova Class ship would at least have some tactical abilities which could be employed against the Borg
Comments
Well you are a rude sod then arn't you, I simple disagreed with you regarding some of the Star Trek events and proved that there was a Borg history but instead you wanted to hurl insults and not actually answer the question in relation to Whoopi Goldberg instead another fellow did it in a polite way.
Further more I didn't know what was said in a fictional film automatically means fact, do you know what fiction means?
Look at the special features of the movie including the interviews with the cast and producer, now its stated in their that the film is about "How Kirk became the Captain of the Enterprise" they did not say at all anywhere anytime in the interviews it was set in an alternate universe now thats a fact buddy!
But as I said before I don't care what you want to think its your choice but to hurl insults at people because they disagree with you is pretty low mate.
And this is why I didn't like the borg Episode in Enterprise, it contradicts everything. Starfleet new of the Borg before Q through Picards Enterprise to meet them, Guinan was on the planet at the time with Superior technology. Don't you think her own people would picked up on this and left earth immediately?
Her home world is unknown because it was destroyed by the borg.
Now hang on there because they introduced the Borg in Enterprise, its Starfleet not the Federation as it didn't exist at that time. You see how this is TRIBBLE with everything.
What no she didn't she hated the Borg and never once suggested the Federation at that time could be friends with the borg and of course it wasn't mentioned because it hadn't been written yet.
But Picard was the Man lol if it was on record they would know about it instantly given the computer would have told them about classified files soon as they attempted to scan the Borg Cube and Picard would have got the info but because of the events of Enterprise hadn't even been thought of at that time and introducing the Borg stuffed that whole time line up.
Thats nice in theory but go watch the episode I'm talking about and you will see there is plenty to study.
As for my opinions about the movie I think I answered Meurik on that one and as I said to him/her this is my opinion I'm aloud to have an opinion as your aloud to have yours but this does not mean that either of us are correct or wrong.
I was rude in return for the rudeness you showed in your previous post.
Obviously you are just acting "stupid" to make my post look worse. When I said that the events of the 2009 movie are based in an Alternate Reality = Fact, I was ofcourse speaking in regards to what happened IN THE MOVIE. I really don't understand why it's so difficult for you to grasp, that the events of the 2009 movie doesn't negate the previous canon, but rather acknowledges it by stating that the NEW events take place in an ALTERNATE REALITY.
This goes back to my previous paragraph. They stated in the movie that it's an Alternate Reality, and that's good enough for me.
1893: Guinan visiting Earth posing as a Human
2063: First Contact with Vulcans + Destruction of Borg Sphere in orbit
2153: Wreckage found in Antarctica including ship parts + cybernetic corpses
2293: USS Enterprise-B launched, refugees of El-Aurians rescued
2353: USS Raven seeks out the Borg who are "rumors and sensor echoes"
2356: Magnus and Erin Hansen assimilated, possibly first Humans
2364: Outposts destroyed along Neutral Zone, destruction caused by Borg
2365: "First Contact" with the Borg, 8500 lightyears from Federation
2366: Borg assimilate Picard and attempt to assimilate Earth
2373: Borg attempt to assimilate Earth 2nd time, fails and travels back to 2063
These are all the KNOWN years in which events surrounding the Borg and/or Guinan took place.
Between Guinans visit in 1893 and the subsequent finding of the Borg wreckage in 2153, a full 160 years pass. You seem to assume that she always remained on Earth after her visit in 1893, which the events fo "Generations" appear to contradict, since she was on a refugee transport in 2293.
The Voyager episode "Dark Frontier" implies that the Borg were known as early as 12 years before Picard's "first contact" with them in 2365, merely as rumors and sensor echoes. How could these rumors exist, unless the Federation/Starfleet had some previous knowledge of the Borg, perhaps from around 2153 ? How does the Enterprise episode contradict "established canon" in regards to the Borg?
My character Tsin'xing
Anything Starfleet knew, the Federation would have known after it was formed. And what did Starfleet know about the Borg? Just that they were cyborgs and had sent out a message that may never even be recieved. They didn't even know the name of the Borg. Starfleet Intelligence probably made numerous discreet inquiries with surrounding species about them, but noone will really learn of the Borg until the Enterprise-D encounters them.
I think you should go back and watch Q Who again. Never said she hated the Borg, just that she wouldn't have liked to have talked about the destruction of her entire race by the hands of the Borg (again, she never told Picard despite it being stated that they knew each since the Stargazer) but would someone really be that friendly with a race that wiped out nearly their entire race?
They're not going to tell the captain of the flagship everything you know. There wasn't even anything to connect what little the Federation knew of the Borg from the Enterprise episode to the destruction of the colonies they found at the end of season 1. Do you really think they'll pull aside Picard and say "Hey, nearly 200 odd years ago, we lost some researchers. Something about cybernetics. That's about all we know, but we thought it was really, really necessary information for you!"
They always show more wreckage because it looks better on screen than the entire ship being vapourised. But you can just as easily say that the antimatter containment would have taken a few more seconds to fail, hence why the Enterprise left the area pretty quickly. Hanging around an exploding ship isn't a good idea, especially when your own defenses are down. It's also not just theory, the self-destruction of technology on Borg vessels isn't something I just came up with, Seven stated it in the same episode when Voyager blew up that probe.
You were quite blatantly telling us to start with as though it was fact. Even still, just because it's 'your opinion' doesn't mean it's still not wrong. It's clearly stated to be an alternate reality. It's pretty clearly an alternate reality. But you're complaining about how it doesn't fit with the Original Series because you think it's supposed to, when it was never meant to. "It's my opinion" doesn't make it any less incorrect.
.....
:eek:
My word, you're right! I also considered First Contact having made an alternate timeline that meant everything after it (Voyager series 4 onwards) and that episode of Enterprise happened in a minutely different timeline to everything prior to it, where all references to the Borg hadn't happened because they hadn't gone back in time at that point... in... time.
I'm starting to sound like Deanna.
But when you put it that way.... It does all gel into one constant timeline, where First Contact was a pre destination paradox that had to happen to create that episode of Enterprise, so there could be rumours and sensor ghosts floating around some dusty Federation archive that the Hansons could get their hands on thanks to some drunk cadet talking about some 'daft old story' he read while he was doing inventory that day, and they run off to do what research they could (perhaps even going so far as to tailing that Cube that was floating about the Neutral Zone at the end of TNG series 1?), but dissapeared on a wild goose chase and first proper contact was made in Q Who! It all makes sense!
That kinda got away from me. But you get my point.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Anyway,
I found Archer as a written character (and the way he was acted) in the very least a person of interesting psychology.
Considering that Starfleet is founded in certain base values, Janeway was at many times morally very questionable.
But Archer (ok, there were less rules for him), he was morally irresponsible. I remember him robbing people blind in the middle of space, leaving them with nothing, because the mission was more important and he took what he needed. And that act of piracy was the least of his questionable deeds.
I liked the character, his desperation, fear, inflexibility, weakness and simple mindedness, it made him interesting and realistic. But far from the perfect Captain. That's probably why he was never mentioned by Kirk and Picard, they were not very proud of that episode in the Starfleet history.
But don't forget Archer was the guy that was not meant to get that Captain seat in the first place. The man that actually was supposed to go would have been a far more solid Captain. Archer was basically a test pilot before he got command, not exactly a great qualification.
http://www.defera.org
Well, with Janeway she could never quite make up her mind if getting her crew home faster was worth immoral acts. Sometimes it made sense that she would go a certain distance, other times it was a case of "You allowed that before, why not this?"
For Archer, well, the mission in that particular case I'd say most people would be willing to bend or outright break many of the rules. You've got to find an alien race that you know next to nothing about, in a hostile and unusual region of space, and you've got an unknown but fairly short time limit to do it all in. The cost of failure is the complete destruction of Earth and the near extinction of humanity. I'd say most people would resort to a bit of piracy to allow the engines to keep going when your entire race hangs in the balance, or other more questionable methods of trying to get some kind of information about where they should start looking. He didn't like it, but he felt it was necessary.
Outside of that, he was pretty morally solid. Discovers that the Andorians were right about P'jem being used as a listening post, and considers it more important than trying to hide the truth in favour of their Vulcan allies. Granted though, Archer's personal distaste for Vulcans holding back humanity's progress in general might have played a part in that. Sure, he doesn't present himself to the Klingons so they can imprison him, but how many people would?
Truthfully, I think he did a good job og making peace between the various warring factions he encountered. Thy'lek Shran and Silik both tried to kill him the first time they met. But both of them eventually respected him and Silik died helping him.
My character Tsin'xing
Ethically, the theft was certainly wrong. And the decision was objected to by several of the senior staff. But morally, it was the only choice available to him. Not getting the warp coil, would result in a missed opportunity to negotiate a peace, and the destruction of Earth.
Archer wasn't a bad captain. Unlike the Captains who would follow, he had no rules and regulations to guide him. No Prime Directive, nothing that said what he could and couldn't do. The episode 'Doctors Orders' in Season 1, dealt very much with what would become the beginnings of the Prime Directive. The cardinal rule of which, is Non-Interference in the national development of an alien society.
The one thing I would've changed throughout the first 2 seasons, is any and all references to the Temporal Cold War. Early, it should've focused more on meeting new species, estabilishing peaceful relations with them, and essentially building towards what Season 4 ended up being: The beginnings of the "Coalition of Planets".
Had the show gone on for another 3 seasons, they could've accommodated a full-on "Romulan/Earth War", the likes of which reminiscent of the Dominion War, which became a highly successful episode arc on DS9. I would much rather have seen the Romulan/Earth War, instead of the Temporal Cold War.
But the 3rd episode of season 4, when they got back to Earth... wow. That just shows how much that season really affected Archer. I don't think he fully recovered and became the person he was pre-Xindi. Archer was more like Columbos, charting unknown territory, with no contact with home, no backup, no rules, being forced to make things up on the spot with no code of conduct. He was a pioneer. He was bound to get things wrong.
If mission failure wasn't the total destruction of all Humanity, he would not have taken that coil. It was awesome the way that episode was done (and Casey Biggs was in it!)
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Agreed!
I liked the parts about exploration. But my favorite story Arc? The one where Archer convinces the Andorians to work with the Vulcans and Tellarites to thwart the Romulans.
My character Tsin'xing
He was far from the best person. He constantly had a chip on his shoulder, yelled at his crew for no good reason, and usually maintained the demeanor of a petulant 12 year old.
I like Enterprise, but watching the episodes back-to-back, Archer becomes insufferable.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
And I agree with everyone else about the Temperal Cold War. They should have just stuck with exploring and building the foundation for the Federation. Then in later seasons go into the Earth-Romulus War.
i do sort of like that he's not perfect and gets things wrong and sometimes seems to be showing the strain of command and the job. he is literally the first human to be doing this stuff and he really got thrown in at the deep end, especially with the temporal cold war and the xindi. thats some pretty big stuff to deal with for anyone.
All I've seen you do so far is troll on Archer, you dont like him, stop watching, the only one I see acting like a 12 year old is you Good day! I said Good Day!
I like the show. I dub you the Archer of this thread.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
Archer was a difficult character to pull off, he was supposed to be discovering and exploring the universe, without stepping on kirks toes, with tech that was supposed to be sub standard to 1960s special effects. His diplomatic skills were below average for being so poorly armed. The NX made the mistakes that star fleet learned from.
I think archer was a less savvy kirk, i think the writing could have been better......
My new complaint is that they should have gone on and developed the T'Pol - Trip relationship instead of constantly hinting at it.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
I totally agree with what you say here, i also think that Archer was the best captain of them all and Enterprise was the best series but yes, the writing could have been done better but yes also it was cancelled wayyy too soon. But it did start kinda slow but IT DID GET BETTER. You have to remember during Archers time era starfleet just basically got started way before the creation of the Federation of Planets, which brings us to the episode of the borg (regeneration), those borg are the ones that was from the movie First Contact which takes place after the Federation has been created, thus Picard goes back in time yadayadayada and so on. And to the comment that something about Enterprise and JJverse version, like you said this has nothing i repeat NOTHING TO DO WITH THE JJ FILMS because JJfilms takes place duing Kirk and Spock's time era. So to end MY OPINION why i think that Archer and Enterprise was/is/maybe the best of the franchise it just shows how earth and starfleet was dealing with exploration at the beginning part of the stages. And i think that Bakula was the best choice to play as Archer.
After the events of 2135, any remainders of the 'alien technology', after Archer's reports, it would most likely either been destroyed, or put into secure storage at Starfleet Command, but probably not given the highest of priorities. There was no specific timing given as to when the El-Aurian homeworld was destroyed, or how long the refugees had been in transit (remember, that they are an extremely long lived species, so travelling for decades would not be an issue for them, so there's no reason why the homeworld might not have been somewhere in the Delta Quadrant and they had simply traveled that distance to escape Borg Space) Knowing how bureaucrats think, it's quite possible that Starfleet Command had not only 'lost interest' in the 'alien technology' when the Enterprise-B was launched, but also due to sheer arrogance, would have thought "We can only hit Warp Nine, so no one else can go any faster, so what threat can they be?" and mistakenly catagorized the 'alien species' as no direct threat. By 2350s, given changes in officers at Starfleet Command, it's likely that the 'cybernetic race' and any remaining technology, was pretty much forgotten. Much like how Londo pointed out in Babylon 5 that orders can be carried out long after the reason for the order being issued is forgotten. I suspect that the Hansens were considered as being on the fringes of the scientific community, and that it may have been easier for Starfleet to have simply given them the Raven just to shut them up and get them out of the way, rather than deal with repeated requests for information/equipment access etc. Imagine the scenario, of Magnus Hansen in a meeting with some irritated rear-admiral desk jockey:
Magnus: "Have you been able to send a ship to the Neutral Zone to check out those sensor anomalies?"
Admiral: "No..."
Magnus: "I really think you should do, Admiral, this may well be the first signs of Their activity in two hundred years..."
Admiral: "It may also be nothing, Professor Hansen... I can't allocate a starship just to track down a sensor ghost of something which has not been seen in two hundred years."
Magnus: "But what if this is Them? We need to make analysis and studies. You have to send a ship to investigate!"
Admiral's glance falls on a data PADD containing specs for an extremely long-range shuttlecraft...
Admiral: "If I agree to assign a ship, will you stop submitting daily requests for access to sensor records?"
Magnus: "Absolutely, Admiral, that's all I want..."
Admiral: "Fine. Here is a ship, now stop wasting my time, and get that brat out of my office before she damages any more of my bonsai collection!"
Could have happened...
If Starfleet Command still did not consider the rumors anything more than a two hundred year old ghost story used to scare cadets on their Midshipman cruises, it certainly didn't consider it enough of a threat to start issuing warning orders to its Captains... Given how Project Defiant got mothballed due to 'engine issues'/as Starfleet considered the Borg threat to have receded, even when it really had not, that shows perfectly the bureaucratic mindset of "It's been dealt with, so it's dealt with, no need for continued vigilance, because we're the Good Guys, and we're Kick TRIBBLE..." If that same thinking had prevailed in 2153, well, it makes two centuries of apathy totally plausible and understandable... Q, on the other hand, knew of the danger, knew the Federation wasn't prepared, didn't want his favorite pets killed, so gave them a kick in the pants to try and wake them up, without being too obvious about it (because he wouldn't want Picard to know that he was actually doing them a favor, unless it was begged for) Even the Enterprise-D's encounter with the Borg wasn't enough to shake Starfleet Command into action on the issue, or Project Defiant would have been immediately put into action, and Wolf 359 would have gone down very differently. Again, bureaucratic arrogance, plain and simple...
That's about all the sense I can make out of the retconned history, feel free to agree or disagree
I used to really admire his rise from a spec-script writer to producer, but he got too self-indulgent and too focused on telling His Stories, and didn't have anyone to keep him in check, Enterprise being the result...
I would like to raise a glass of Romulan Ale to Magnus Hansen for having the faith to stand by the courage of his convictions *cheers*
I 100% agree, sure he was not the perfect captain, but no one is and he did the best job possible under alot of circumstances. The actor Scott Bakula did an excellent job. I wish they went on for another season or did what the stargate franchise did and do dvd tv movies.
The defiant was made after the battle of wolf 359. Also still they did not have alot of information on the borg back then. I agree even if the threat had been reduced I would still make some ships in case. But now days in star trek almost all the ships are designed to fight some why against the borg and other races.
Even discounting the historical archives which should have existed from Archer's time (but we'll ignore the historic retcon for a second) the fact that there was a confirmed encounter with a Borg cube, which was more than a match for a Galaxy Class starship, someone at Command should have put the wheels in motion for Project Defiant as soon as Picard's debriefing was concluded...
The point I was making, was Starfleet's historic apathy towards the Borg threat, and unwillingness to be pro-active in taking a stance against it. I guess that's why when the Jem'Hadar took out the Odyssey, they decided to not make the same mistake again...
Absolutely so, it's just common sense, and yes, I would even be willing to go up against a cube in a Nova Class ship, given what I know about Borg tactics (which one would hope/assume any captain worth their salt would know... ) Not saying things would get very far beyond 'Resistance is futile...', but even a Nova Class ship would at least have some tactical abilities which could be employed against the Borg