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Is PVP the only factor you judge "Balance" by?
cusashorn
Member Posts: 461
I don't PVP. I hate doing it and just enjoy playing against the NPCs in this game.
But something has me curious. I don't know if that's actually the case, but I tend to notice here on the forums that whenever anyone is discussing gameplay balance whenever a skill gets nerfed or a new ship is introduced, I get the feeling that they're only specifically talking about how those changes stack up to other skills and other ships in PVP only.
Am I kind of in the ballpark here? I dont' really see why there would be any need to discuss how well the Regeant class Assault Cruiser holds up to other vessels in the game if that wasn't the case, because all ships are suppose to have a defining trait, no matter how offset the gameplay might be because of it.
But something has me curious. I don't know if that's actually the case, but I tend to notice here on the forums that whenever anyone is discussing gameplay balance whenever a skill gets nerfed or a new ship is introduced, I get the feeling that they're only specifically talking about how those changes stack up to other skills and other ships in PVP only.
Am I kind of in the ballpark here? I dont' really see why there would be any need to discuss how well the Regeant class Assault Cruiser holds up to other vessels in the game if that wasn't the case, because all ships are suppose to have a defining trait, no matter how offset the gameplay might be because of it.
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-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
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-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
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Post edited by cusashorn on
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If someone asks a question about a set for PVE. Please don't answer telling them they should only set it up for PVP.
Kyle
YOUR SET UP IS YOUR BUSINESS
Silver Rule
PVP is less than 5% of the game
Bronze Rule
A ship speced perfectly for PVP will SUCK in some missions
Though many people whom I knew that were hardcore PvPers are stopping not solely because of the no new maps, but because STO's PvP has gotten to ridiculous levels with ability spam or fancy weapons like these Phased Tetryon or Spiral Disruptors. It really shows that the game is becoming "Pay to Win" (when it comes to PVP that is).
Now when it comes to ship balance, well its up to us to determine that. But the way the game's changing, it looks like every slot is going to be filled up. Though it's up to us to really question imbalances as soon as we can. Though I honestly think Cryptic's at their limit with balanced configurations that we likely will start seeing imbalanced configurations. Hopefully not, but you never know.
I`d like a two-value system as well. Guild Wars had that too. Some skills would even work differently when used in PvP.
I remember what the devs did to PVP in EQ2. They actually managed to make things a bit more balanced by scaling back all damage by 33% when PVPing, as well as introduced a mitigation system that ONLY worked in PVP. I thought that was a pretty good change.
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I've seen this done in many MMOs with great success, from Dragon Nest and Guild Wars 1 being the two most prominent which run it.
It's the least drama inducing, as we've seen in WoW when arenas came into the game raiders and pvpers were really at each other's throats when "balancing" occurred after patches. Because of such a system, the environment between the two sides stops becoming fluid and becomes more divided and hostile. In the end it just becomes us vs them mentality and that poisons the community. People that would otherwise try to raid or pvp would be less inclined to try.
It doesn't stop them from attempting to make balance via pvp though. It would help if the devs pvp'd regularly in their own game, and they stopped releasing new skills/powers untested.
OP *is* the new balance, whether you know it or not! Gecko says so.
Season 7 - Exodus, available online. U buy nao!
http://seekingalpha.com/article/738221-monetizing-perfect-world-s-latest-update
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The devs do test powers and abilities. They go to Kerrat on their Federation carebear and then suggest removing pvp from the game after they get beat with the whumpin' stick.
The only way to really balance everything is to adopt standard console/boff layouts and then make different skins for the standard ships that result. As of this moment I'd suggest that Feds have better ships, period.
Attempting to balance for PVP only succeeds in botching up PVE - ie the actual game. This has been clearly demonstrated by pretty much every game that's ever tried it.
Another thing- weapon mounts need to be an assigned type (i.e. energy, torpedo, etc) and kept non-interchanagable. NO race would build a torpedo only ship, or a beam only ship so why should the players be allowed. This 1:1 weapon interchanagability thows balancing ability off. Anyone ever see a torpedo only AI ship ? Not me.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Science ships are basically Cruiser/ Escorts that give you 4 free BOff skills just for owning the ship. They automatically receive the 4 Beam Target Subsystem skills.
For this to be balanced all cruisers would get all of the Emergency Power to Subsystem skills and all Escorts would get all of the Attack Pattern skills.
Don't even get me started on the magic that lets a Science Captain summon a Gravity Well or Rift several times per session just because it appeared in 1 episode of 1 series.
I think to some extent yeah, I'm not a PVPer but I do acknowledge that some of Cryptic's NPC critters cheat. Literally, when you look at their powers they might be able to throw out let's say...GW3, and PSW3 - two commander science powers. It's impossible to balance against that sort of thing really.
Now PVP's skewed by player ability, but its fair to say if you're looking at a similar player you get a better idea.
That way people start off in standard PvE ships but earn these PvP ships, which are innately better than even C-Store or Fleet ships for PvP because they're targeted at PvP stats. That reintroduces possibility of eSport.
Now, beyond that, to keep dilithium/fleet demand high and avoid an extra currency...
I'd have dilithium or fleet credits be used to buy PvP ships.
However, access to the PvP ship store would be tiered based on commendation category (reputation) progress.
Everyone's PvP rep is reset quarterly and new weapons and ships and cool stuff would also be added quarterly to the PvP ship store.
You get, say, 500 PvP CXP per match for a win, 50 for a lose. And players who have higher tiers (Ie. say I'm Tier 3 in PvP) award a bonus bounty of CXP every time you kill them. The better you are, the bigger the target on you.
If you max out the commendation category at 100k PvP CXP, you get to reap rewards like dilithium turn-ins or fleet marks or maybe even Lobi hand-ins or Fleet Base extras until the seasonal reset.
Then everybody starts at 0 PvP XP and the rivalry starts up again. The old gear is discounted. New gear is introduced. There's a perk for hitting the top tier each PvP season.
That Bronze rule applies to most MMOs but not to STO. a PvP specwill wreck PvE content in this game.
Master using it and you can have this!
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As have I. It's only way things can be balanced in both PvE and PvP.
As for Ship balance: no, PvP isn't my only yardstick.
If X Ship > Y Ship in every non-trivial way for instance, it's unbalanced and it'll cause issues in PvE and PvP alike.
Just because in PvE Ships don't face off with each other doesn't mean balance is any less relevant than in PvP.
I'd say it's somewhere in between sucking and wrecking. A PvP build will be sufficient for PvE, but it definitely is not ideal. I've recently changed from a PvE setup to a PvP setup and had to change many things, including weapons, Boff abilities, and even active space Doffs.
@DevolvedOne
Dunno I main a pure PvP built tac/Garumba tourney, (as in no +1 consoles at all, though I do run a Red Matter Capasitor), set up right now right now and I've been face melting PvE. Considering how the game is built around DPS and heals it is not a surprise to me that a tac/escort has a high degree of mission flexibility.
Earlier today I PuGged a Starbase Defense. Two warped out right at the beginning one was an AKF hero that left a Bortasqu and myself. We were stubborn and managed to get to wave four before we lost the base. That Bortasqu was good. Kept the base healed at the expense of their self more than once.
Still I was thinking about setting up a slightly more PvE build with a swappable BO set up for one more CSV and no CRF...
Edited to get a touch more on topic:
I made a post in another thread that pointed out one of the reasons that under the current mechanics PvP is the best tool to judge balance by. It was in a thread about how the new Metreon Gas dispenser is underwhelming.
The reality is that to give a degree of challenge to PvE the NPC's hit points and damage has to be super charged as the AI that controls them does not chose or time buffs and heals all that well. So you get NPCs with ludicrous hit point values and very high damage output values.
In the case of the metreon gas trick the new console fails to look all that impressive in PvE because the NPC hull goes down just a tiny fraction. Yet when you see a Regent with full hull and a down shield facing drop to 30% hull due to that console when it gets stuck in it's own metreon TRIBBLE it is very effective against ships like BoPs, Science vessels, and even escorts that are piloted by players. Very effective as in coup de gr?ce effective.
Sorry, but I greatly disagree. PvP Ships, PvP specific gear, and PvP stats is the worst thing that can happen. (Just look how it ruined TOR's PvP and other MMOs that used similar PvP systems.)
Right now, the major factors that seperates people is experience and teamwork. You start throwing around ships or gear with PvP bonuses, or PvP stat bonuses, it will just increase the divide between the experienced and inexperienced. Thus making there fewer people to brave STO PvP.
Sure you want somekind of incentive, but not like this.
If you want more people to play STO PvP, you need to lower the bar to where medocre players can stand a chance and not get blown away within seconds.
For example, the revamped Ground PvP rather focused on this nicely. Where inexperienced players pretty much can challenge even the most experienced PvPers. But at the same time, experience can still plays a major factor. So in space, a system revamp has to be similar.
Don't think that would be a good idea. It's a good way to anger someone. :rolleyes:
As I said above, widening the gap is a seriously bad idea. Again, look at TOR with the difference between their Level 50s with no PvP "Expertise" and those Level 50s with their "Expertise" in the Level 70s. It was essentially like those Level 50s were fighting people who were Level 100. In other words, impossible.
So if you had a similar system in STO, nobody is going to enjoy constantly losing for months until you gained enough CXP to take on the hardcores. STO's PvP designers need to essentially follow the K.I.S.S. principal.
Yes! This is it exactly. I knew there was something I couldn't quite put my finger on that lead me to make this topic. I forgot that the people who are usually more vocal about balance are the PVPers. Thanks!
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
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Whatever anyone thinks of my other opinions, I agree here.
I've said before, PvP is hardmode PvE. And that ghettoizes PvP because hardmode PvE is always unpopular. Good PvE relies on non-twitch based strategy... ie. puzzles. Good PvP relies on good twitch. Lumping the two together does neither any favors.
PvP? You'll get slaughtered if you don't have a decent build that enables you do fulfill the specific task your ship is intended to do (and if you don't know what you're doing). Any changes made in the game affect PvP extensively, because players are smart. . .they will take any advantageous changes and use the heck out of them. That's why PvP is considered when they talk about 'balance'. It matters more in the PvP part of the game.
That's my interpretation of it, anyhow.
I mean, PvE and PvP are just two completely different games at this point... and it's a shame, and STO really suffers for it... I've been powerlevelling some alts lately and I've noticed with mild shock that some of the NPCs (Romulan I think?) actually heal themselves and use buffs, they turn to get a firing arc/hide weaker facings... why can't all of the PvE stuff be like this? You'd train players to think (as someone else put it) of the game as more of a puzzle than just the DPS snoozefest it is right now, there'd be more use for teamwork and you'd get a much higher quality PvP community as a result. People wouldn't be scared off by the qualitative skill gulf between the two worlds.
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Agreed and agreed.
As long as the AI is poor and the game mechanics for PvE and PvP are identical balance is more difficult to achieve.
Then again we have been asking for a smarter AI for a while now. Looks like we are starting to get it too. I saw an enemy Miranda flash an Engineering Team in a fleet event not too long ago. Actually saw it quite a bit.
I wonder what it would take to get the AI to turn away from damage received and turn into damage dealt? This way when you pound it it is more inclined to turn a fresh shield face yet when it's damage output exceeds yours in turns in to increase the chance of staying on your weakened shield face?
Probably easier just to get them to redistribute shields.
Season 6 changed the AI to use level appropriate skills tbat players normally use. Engineering Team, Science Team, Gravity Well, Eject Warp Plasma, etc.
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Make PvP ships and characters that have gear, stats, and skills predefined by Cryptic. These ships could be individually balanced against other predefined Crytpic ships and given strengths and weaknesses.
Allow PvP only with these predefined ships and character loadouts. Everyone would then be on equal footing and personal player skill would be the only factor in PvP.
Master using it and you can have this!
Be black on the right side. Add properly colored Cheron to the game today!