Fleet hijacked, do we have no recourse?

eidborg · August 2012

So five of us had been running a 50 player fleet pretty amicably for about a year. One of our leaders had a temper tantrum (literally) and quit with all his characters. He has personal issues or whatever, I don't listen to his excuses anymore. Now, overnight, he came back, convinced one leader (who we are not happy with) that he was sorry and wanted to come back. He immediately demoted everyone but him and renamed his rank "god".

So, if I wasn't in danger of losing my fleet and starbase to a 40 year old man's fit of childish rage over a video game it would be funny.

What I need to know is do we have ANY recourse here? Would a GM help us with what is essentially a social issue? I feel like the next time I log on I'm gonna be fleetless with a rude message in my inbox.

help?

defalus · August 2012

Given what I've seen in the past I doubt Cryptic will be able or willing to do much on this. I was in a KDF fleet a while ago that got hijacked - one of the leaders kicked most people out and took the fleet and the full fleet bank with all it's ec and goodies, a ticket was put in to get help but nothing ever came of it.

I don't want to be all "doom and gloom" but brace yourself for the worst. Best thing you can do is try to reason with the leader or inform all other fleet members what happened and leave and reform as a new fleet.

iceman22504 · August 2012

I'm sure there is something that PWE can do for you. You're best bet is to send them a ticket explaining what had happened, and also state that this not only affects you, but also other players linked to this fleet. As long as you have a time frame in which this happened for them to work from, I don't see why there should be an issue with helping you. Obviously, I don't work for for Cryptic of PWE, but I can say for the issues I have had, and other fleet mates have had, be it affecting one or all of us, they have been able to handle pretty much anything.

We all have our gripes and opinions on things, but from personal experience I can say their customer service when problems arise is top knotch. Be aware, though, this probably isn't something that they'll be able to do overnight, might take a few days before desired result is reached..

thecosmic1 · August 2012

Cryptic does not get involved with Fleet politics. Who you promote, who you demote, who you allow to take things from storage are all out of Cryptic's hands.

darthstormstrike · August 2012

Cryptic can't help. Someone gave him the power and he used the power he was given. Now was he given the top level power? There should be someone still higher than him and handle the problem. If he is now the top dog so to speak then you are stuck.

thecosmic1 · August 2012

I think one thing that should be changed in the system is that no one can demote someone of equal rank to them. So a Leader cannot demote another Leader - though the system will automatically demote you if you stop playing for 30 days.

admiralmikey0 · August 2012

According to what I was told when I asked if GM or anyone from cryptic would be capable of replacing a fleet leader who was inactive for long time (it was about a year ago), GM?s or any other cryptic employees cannot and will not do any changes in your fleet, but they will encourage you to either reason with your leader (await his return I?ve been told) or found a new fleet..

So, sorry for your loss..

darthstormstrike · August 2012

thecosmic1 wrote: »

I think one thing that should be changed in the system is that no one can demote someone of equal rank to them. So a Leader cannot demote another Leader - though the system will automatically demote you if you stop playing for 30 days.

Not true. It is not automatic. It gives the next level a button to claim leadership. My toons are all in one fleet but one who was in a larger fleet circa 2011. The leader hasn't been on since 2011 and he's still the leader and the one or two below him refuse to take control. So fleet base for that fleet is not happening.

And there is a check box in the fleet settings that disallows demoting if I remember right seeing it there.
Edit: Just logged in real fast before maintenance and yep there is a demote settings check box. So he was given the power he used.

johnny111971 · August 2012

Sorry, I don't see where your fleet has been "Hijacked".

A player, with sufficient privileges, promoted this player to a rank that had sufficient access to demote any rank. Then the newly promoted person utilized his new access level to demote everyone else, and claim the fleet for himself.

This is not a crime... is it in poor taste, sure.

eidborg · August 2012

Thanks guy, except Johnny who for some reason thinks hijackings are subjective only to the hijacker. We'll see what we can do with tickets. If we all keep sending them maybe we'll at least get a response. He might calm down but I'm not holding my breath.

dant158 · August 2012

It's called a Coup.

Tough luck. Dust yourself off and move on, I'd say.

The slytherin in me says bravo to the other dude.

johnny111971 · August 2012

eidborg wrote: »

Thanks guy, except Johnny who for some reason thinks hijackings are subjective only to the hijacker. We'll see what we can do with tickets. If we all keep sending them maybe we'll at least get a response. He might calm down but I'm not holding my breath.

I dont condone what he did... but Cryptic will not assist as he did not violate any rule of the game (Terms Of Service, etc). He used the access that was granted him... Sorry, it sucks... but that is what it is.

liquidacid29 · August 2012

seeing as he had sufficient privilege in the fleet to do this you can't really call it hijacking... being a **** sure but he technically isn't doing anything he isn't in his rights to do and Cryptic isn't gonna intervene because of that

the most logical thing to do is for everyone to leave and start a new fleet... let him be a **** in a fleet of 1... now while it would suck that you would loose the Starbase you currently have it's not like you can't just build it again... small price to pay for the security of knowing that TRIBBLE is no longer in power

If I were you I'd be more pissed at which ever other "leader" let him back in and immediately gave him the permission to do all those things

carmenara · August 2012

This going to sound like something from a different environment altogether that shouldn't be brought into the context of a video game but here it is anyway: -

Anyone who is vulnerable to temper tantrums or instability and who could possibly take rage on virtual properties and online contacts should not be allowed back into a command level position.

It makes sense that while multiple senior officers are required to maintain 24/7 functionality of a large fleet, the top slot wtih demote or liquidation privledges should only be granted to one or at most two persons with a strict ethos of command responsibility.

This is more for future general reference - this sort of thing can happen to ANY one of our fleets and should it happen the majority of the players will be royally screwed just because someone decided to take their tantrum out on virtual property.

The larger the fleet, the more damage dealt. A 50-man fleet while not exactly large, is not a small unit either and possesses great economic power in its own right.

That means whomever's left in the 50 can start a new venture and start anew. Fleet bank resources are re-acquirable. Dilithium can be earned at a very rapid rate per player (4 toons 8k dil x many active players) and so the starbase construction can start from scratch and hit Tier II within a few weeks.

If you want to deal with the person who created this mess, don't negotiate, don't reason. That gives him even more motivation to play God.

Instead let him know he's just one man who decided to take out his rage on virtual property with all its lameness. Virtual properties can be replaced easily. Do not negotiate with terrorists.

Take the fight to him by rallying the troops and creating a new, bigger and better Fleet, and make sure that false God knows everything about it. Shove him a formal rejection when he comes around and pleads to be let in.

And then, you have achieved a complete turnaround and won a political victory and ended up with a stronger organization.

I know this sounds like something you don't want to see in the context of a video game, but someone else, not you, started this whole mess. Make use of it as an opportunity to correct said wrongs and make a new start with new possibilities and new bonds between people - because whomever rebuilds the starbase with you are going to be trustworthy leaders, who know "what it was like" to see one of their number fall.

In any such guild disputes, the interests of the majority matters far more than appeasing that one leader who decided everyone should bow to him.... for what?

Remember - we all want to be friends. We want to negotiate, to compromise, to make everyone feel part of a solid team.

But that means you have to police it and make sure the good things are protected. The guild must survive as a guild. Leave the past behind.

darthstormstrike · August 2012

eidborg wrote: »

Thanks guy, except Johnny who for some reason thinks hijackings are subjective only to the hijacker. We'll see what we can do with tickets. If we all keep sending them maybe we'll at least get a response. He might calm down but I'm not holding my breath.

Johnny does have a point though. Basically it's like you give your house keys to someone and that someone uses them to raid your fridge. I know you were so looking forward to that leftover pizza, but you can't call the cops to get back that pizza he ate because you gave him access.

And I know you actually didn't give the guy access but he was given access by someone who could give said access.

thissler · August 2012

Not that this helps one bit but......

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hijack

It is perfectly correct for the OP to label this a hijacking. Keep in mind that there is a clear difference between what is possible in a system and what is desirable in a system.

Also keep in mind we don't know any facts at all. This may all just be a story told to pass the time.

But it is reasonable to assume that the one person wasn't given his position with the understanding that his very next action would be to remove all others from power, including the person that granted him permission. It is reasonable to assume that he was being welcomed back as an equal by the person that granted him his position. So its likely he gained position under false pretense, "I'm sorry, forgive me, I'm your friend", and used that position to consolidate power "LOL you're all demoted".

Poor planning on someone's part to set the fleet up in that manner? Yes. Would this be actionable if there was access to some sort of documentation of the arrangement of power between the leaders? Of course it would be.

robdmc · August 2012

darthstormstrike wrote: »

Johnny does have a point though. Basically it's like you give your house keys to someone and that someone uses them to raid your fridge. I know you were so looking forward to that leftover pizza, but you can't call the cops to get back that pizza he ate because you gave him access.

And I know you actually didn't give the guy access but he was given access by someone who could give said access.

I understand your point but this isn't a pizza here. In this case the person who was given the key changed all the locked and claimed the master bedroom as his own. You can call the cop and have him removed or evicted if he claims squatters rights.

liquidacid29 · August 2012

thissler wrote: »

Not that this helps one bit but......

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hijack

It is perfectly correct for the OP to label this a hijacking. Keep in mind that there is a clear difference between what is possible in a system and what is desirable in a system.

did you read that definition? cause according to that it ISN'T correct for the OP to call this hijacking as nothing was stolen because you can't steal something you have permission to take... someone gave the A-hole the fleet permissions to do everything he did... thus he didn't steal or "hijack" anything... He just abused powers that were freely given to him

robdmc wrote: »

I understand your point but this isn't a pizza here. In this case the person who was given the key changed all the locked and claimed the master bedroom as his own. You can call the cop and have him removed or evicted if he claims squatters rights.

no in this scenario you didn't hand him a key to your house you put him on the lease as an owner... thus he CAN claim the main bedroom and the cops can't do jack

zodiemish · August 2012

Maybe it is because I come from a universe where THIS and THIS is common place, you live in paranoia, and have grown cold seeing this happen to my own corp, but only thing I can say is next time be careful of who you put into a leadership role . Because you never know who they will put in too, or what they will do.

As for cryptic stepping in. Unless he some how broke the rules cryptic doesn't have to do a thing. If he broke the rules they would, but from what you told me he hasn't broken anything.

That being said.. Cryptic does have the power to fix this no problem. the question is... Will they do it, or will they just let it keep on going it's route.

Honestly I would say they won't do it. It is easier to ignore, and let the players sort out player problems then to step in on things that don't break the rules.

Also I too would not call it a Hijacking.. I would call it a coup d'tat

darthstormstrike · August 2012

robdmc wrote: »

I understand your point but this isn't a pizza here. In this case the person who was given the key changed all the locked and claimed the master bedroom as his own. You can call the cop and have him removed or evicted if he claims squatters rights.

Not if you gave the guy the rights to change the locks and claim the master bedroom in the first place and he has that in writing. Which the fleet permissions tab is... in writing what he is allowed and not allowed to do.

thecosmic1 · August 2012

darthstormstrike wrote: »

Not true. It is not automatic. It gives the next level a button to claim leadership. My toons are all in one fleet but one who was in a larger fleet circa 2011. The leader hasn't been on since 2011 and he's still the leader and the one or two below him refuse to take control. So fleet base for that fleet is not happening.

And there is a check box in the fleet settings that disallows demoting if I remember right seeing it there.
Edit: Just logged in real fast before maintenance and yep there is a demote settings check box. So he was given the power he used.

I'm not sure how the 30 day thing works, as I'm never logged out 30 days.

My overall point is that people of the same Rank shouldn't be able to demote other people of the same Rank, no matter what. One Leader should not be able to demote 5 other Leaders in the Fleet and take control - which appears to be what happen to the OP.

darthstormstrike · August 2012

thecosmic1 wrote: »

I'm not sure how the 30 day thing works, as I'm never logged out 30 days.

My overall point is that people of the same Rank shouldn't be able to demote other people of the same Rank, no matter what. One Leader should not be able to demote 5 other Leaders in the Fleet and take control - which appears to be what happen to the OP.

There is a setting thing in the fleet page though that determines if that can and can not be done. They must have had it set to allow for the demotions to happen. So they gave him the power of Greyskull and he became He-Man.

dood98998 · August 2012

Precisely why I'm not in a fleet. You work your as* off for sh*t rewards and this could always happen. In answer to the op's question, cryptic won't do squat, and u just lost ur pretty little rescource sink my friend:(

kimmera · August 2012

Hopefully Cryptic will help you, but as others have said, this is mostly the folly of whoever invited the person back with full privileges.

If they are unwilling to reinstate one of the other leaders, perhaps the person in question could at least be cited for anti-social behavior?

daveyny · August 2012

Nothing good is going to come of this...

Get as many of your fleet members as you can, to leave the current problem fleet and create a new one...

Keeping in mind the results of this experiance.

Trying to fight a self-appointed, demi-god player, will only lead to more hard feelings and rage.

Just move on...

admrenlarreck · August 2012

darthstormstrike wrote: »

There is a setting thing in the fleet page though that determines if that can and can not be done. They must have had it set to allow for the demotions to happen. So they gave him the power of Greyskull and he became He-Man.

Yes there is an option to not allow players to demote someone of the same rank. however, at the level of Leader, ALL of the options are not able to be reset. A Fleet Leader has all of these options set to on and they can not be turned off. Once turned off it takes the next higher rank with those permissions to turn them back on. As there is no level higher than Leader......Well you get the picture.

The op's hijacker was taken back at the level of Leader. This is what caused the problem.

As to if Cryptic or PWE will help. No they won't, They will tell you something about Fleet Politics needing to sort it out. That is IF they even respond to you.

tangolight · August 2012

Johnny and the others are right. The person broke no actual rules, hence Cryptic cannot help otherwise they would be going down a slippery slope of when they will and won't interfere in stuff like this.

Like other MMOs, it means you need to be sure you trust your fleet leader(s). If you don't, don't give them the rank.

This is why I don't accept random fleet invites from people I don't know, and don't try to recruit random people in zone chat. Why should I ask people to trust me if they know nothing about me? Of course, if you at least have heard things about the person, whether in game, or the forums, that's at least something to go on. If I wasn't already in my own fleet, I'd probably want to join the fleet of some of the more helpful posters in this forum, like Latinumber's.

suricatta · August 2012

As others have stated, this is not a hijacking, its a coup and to be honest, he broke no rules since he used the power that was freely given to him.

The best thing to do is to talk with other like minded people in your fleet, disband and make a new fleet with a very firm set of rules aggreed between you, to prevent an incident like this happening again. I'd recommend doing this IMMEDIATLY before other people in the fleet get fed up and either quit the game or leave for another fleet. The longer you leave this situation, the more chance you'll loose fleet members to other fleets.

On the bright side, the fleet starbases are still fairly new, so you'll be able to catch up again fairly easily (more so with the new DoFF missions) and you'll you still have your fleet credits from before as well, so you'll all actually have more money than you usually would when you unlock things :-)

Eitherway, leave the fleet with you friends and create a new fleet ASAP (and make sure no idiots in your fleet invite the old leader back and give him leadership permissions, lol)

bluegeek · August 2012

TBH, the system is really not set up with shared full leadership in mind. It's meant to follow a basically military-type command structure with one person at the top. You can set up more than one fleet leader, but as we can see that scheme has its' own pitfalls.

Fleet leadership is predicated on someone filling the role of benevolent dictator, and some of 'em ain't so benevolent.

But the alternative would be some kind of game-enforced voting system, and who's got time for that?

It is entirely possible to set up the fleet with a subordinate leader rank with enough fleet permissions to keep things running if the Leader goes AWOL... especially now that leadership can be claimed after 30 days. I think a good leader does that to protect his fleet members.

It would be interesting if fleets could be set up at creation with a game-based Council governance or election system. But I'm not sure how well that would work even if Cryptic were interested in setting it up and if it were set it up in the right way.

mimey2 · August 2012

Excuse me....Excuse me. I'd just like to ask a question. What does 'God' need with a Starbase? I said, what does 'God' need with a Starbase? :P

Joking aside though, what happened is really unfortunate, but I don't think Cryptic will help. As others have said, make a new fleet while you're ahead.

Everyone deals with a really....bad fleet/clan/guild/etc in an MMO at one point or another. Regardless of anything else, it happens, because people can be selfish, uptight, power-hungry little...

*ahem*

Point being, I've dealt with virtually the same issue you are, and the fleet I am in now, split away from our previous fleet, and never looked back.

hevach · August 2012

thecosmic1 wrote: »

I'm not sure how the 30 day thing works, as I'm never logged out 30 days.

My overall point is that people of the same Rank shouldn't be able to demote other people of the same Rank, no matter what. One Leader should not be able to demote 5 other Leaders in the Fleet and take control - which appears to be what happen to the OP.

Why shouldn't that be possible? Can you really not see any of the situations in which this capability is absolutely a requirement?

The ability for leaders to act on each other is the one defense the OP's fleet could have mounted. Without that ability, they may have still been leaders, but still would be at the mercy of this "god's" tantrum.

Fleet hijacked, do we have no recourse?

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