Way to TRIBBLE the small fleets Cryptic!

forjoatinxan · July 2012

So I log in today to schedule the special assignment. Then I see that in order to complete it, we have to first complete the previous special assignment -- which requires 600 fleet marks. I had this queued just in case we filled up all of the other assignment queues but we have never put a single fleet mark in it.

Fleet leaders really need some way to pause, disable, or cancel projects. We can cancel DOff assignments -- why not fleet ones?

As it stands, unless our small fleet of about 5 actives are able to grind (and make no mistake, it IS A GRIND) out 600 marks, we'll miss out on this assignment.

Hard way to learn not to pre-queue.

-Forjo

azurianstar · July 2012

It's not hard to get Marks. You can easily get 500 to 1000 Marks during the Tholian Even when on Nukara. But I agree, we should be able to cancel the projects. Especially those that are on standby for the next project.

But as a Small Fleet Leader, I'm not happy with these "Limited Time" Projects that cost 200,000 Dilithum. My little fleet isn't rich and can drop that kind of funds on a whim. (People tell us to recruit, well there is a reason we chose to be small).

Why "limited time" offers in a time-gated fashion? Why can't fleets be allowed to choose their own decoration projects at the time they choose fit?

cusashorn · July 2012

I agree that projects should have the option of being canceled or disabled, but canceling a project makes it very easy to just pick it up again, donate more replicated shield generators, and load up on fleet credits over and over again.

hrci2907 · July 2012

There needs to be an option to cancel fleet projects and bring that option to STO and fast!

baudl · July 2012

hrci2907 wrote: »

There needs to be an option to cancel fleet projects and bring that option to STO and fast!

that is needed, but i thinks it's hard to implement, since the items invested need to be distributed again...that may be hard to do.

on the other hand, it says right there that special projects are suited for larger fleets...sorry but there was a warning.

PS: 600 fleetmarks is not that big of a deal anyway...2 hour nukara for one person...for 5 persons its like 30 minutes.
If your fleet is smaller than that, well don't bother with special projects or recruit more people...sorry to say that but thats how it is.

mikewendell · July 2012

I'm a 1 person fleet. 200k the first time around wasn't a problem. This time it's a bit of a one but doable in a couple of days.

I'm in the same position of having to do the special project first that i stuck up there in error. Instead of doing three projects, I'll just do it to clear it.

But yes, deleting it would have been a better option. I already have 500k in fleet credits. More is not needed right now.

baudl · July 2012

since 1 person fleets are a contradiction of the fleet system in itself, you will allways have a hard time doing it...even with multiple toons. Right now it's still kind of easy, but to reach higher tiers will become a real pain in the buttom.

1 person fleet...what a perfect paradox it is.:rolleyes:
i never understood what kind of motivation one must have to start a fleet by himself.

why play a MMO with other people if you can play it all by yourself

abcde123123 · July 2012

baudl wrote: »

PS: 600 fleetmarks is not that big of a deal anyway...2 hour nukara for one person...for 5 persons its like 30 minutes.
If your fleet is smaller than that, well don't bother with special projects or recruit more people...sorry to say that but thats how it is.

yeah... as somebody who has to grind nukara we just call it "torture and boredom", but theres' no other efficient way to get marks.

we all wanted new content. now we got it...

forjoatinxan · July 2012

Thanks for the suggestion of the Tholian missions during the Fleet Mark event. I'll try that.

But there still should be a way to pause and reprioritize projects.

-Forjo

wolfpacknz · July 2012

Firstly its PWE not Cryptic...

Secondly, yes small fleets are being screwed royally by S6. PWE Said they wouldn't be hurt or find it hard, but I think we all knew this was BS. A small fleet with 10 or less members (for example) should not have to grind or fork out the same amount of points as a fleet with 200+ members. It should be a sliding scale. Projects require commodities, or duty officers, dilithium, weapons/fighters etc and for a small fleet this can seriously financially cripple them trying to get the stuff required to fill projects.

Just to get to T1 for a small fleet will take months and months and cost far more per player then a large fleet. This IS penalizing and hurting small fleets, why should they pay more per player then a large fleet?

You said small fleets wouldn't be hurt or penalized PWE, once again you lied. A simple, flat out lie. Next time, plan better...

darramouss1 · July 2012

baudl wrote: »

since 1 person fleets are a contradiction of the fleet system in itself, you will allways have a hard time doing it...even with multiple toons. Right now it's still kind of easy, but to reach higher tiers will become a real pain in the buttom.

1 person fleet...what a perfect paradox it is.:rolleyes:
i never understood what kind of motivation one must have to start a fleet by himself.

why play a MMO with other people if you can play it all by yourself

I'm also in a one man fleet. Why have a one man fleet? Because I'm not playing STO to have an MMO experience, I'm playing STO to have a Star Trek experience. I want to play at my pace on my terms with no petty fleet bickering that appears to have started since bases arrived. I can play when I want and how I want on my terms.

I think PWE is aware that there are others like me and mikewendell but I really don't think they'll stop it because they'll end up alienating quite a few Trek fans, and traditionally Trek fans are more than happy to spend money if they feel they're getting value. (Case in point, I know a person who flies from Australia to the Trek conventions in the US. That's a $1,600 minimum airfare without taking accommodation in to account. Trekkies are very committed people.)

As for requirements for projects, they should be scaled based on the number of fleet members. That would put everyone on an even footing. It could also help alleviate the issue large fleets are having with a minority of players snatching up the fleet marks. if super large fleets had super large requirements then there'd be more of a chance for everyone to chip in.

And you should be able to cancel fleet projects at the cost of anything already contributed.

mikewendell · July 2012

wolfpacknz wrote: »

Firstly its PWE not Cryptic..

I seriously doubt Michael Yufeng Chi called up Cryptic and told them to TRIBBLE over small fleets.

The sliding scale wouldn't work. if I ran a large fleet and saw that opportunity, I'd either start a new fleet just for the purpose of building that starbase as cheaply as possible or I'd boot everybody, build the thing and invite them back. The idea, while a good one, is just too easy to abuse.

As to the "a one man fleet isn;t a fleet" well in the game it is. If you want to contradict what Cryptic allows, more power to you. Feel free to open a support ticket and ask that all one man fleets get burned.

So far I've not had a problem. Granted I'm now just completing tier 1. We'll see in a month or two how things are going. I'll bet you though I'll be doing a fair amount better than many multiple fleets. I planned ahead. I read what others had written about them, what resources I would need, and I got setup for building the thing.

abcde123123 · July 2012

mikewendell wrote: »

The sliding scale wouldn't work. if I ran a large fleet and saw that opportunity, I'd either start a new fleet just for the purpose of building that starbase as cheaply as possible or I'd boot everybody, build the thing and invite them back. The idea, while a good one, is just too easy to abuse.

lol. that logic or lack of it amuses me.

Even for a bigger fleet (assuming bigger fleet == more resources in every aspect) it will still make more sense to split up into small fleets and distribute resources in parallel building. Because once you reach your tiers, it's provisioning projects that's gonna be your bottleneck, not the resource cost.

And I'm not sure not sure why folks are so happy about "We need to grind for another 360 days to get to T5. Sure we go for it." This is something I have not yet understood. But then again, may be I don't need to.

aestu · July 2012

mikewendell wrote: »

I seriously doubt Michael Yufeng Chi called up Cryptic and told them to TRIBBLE over small fleets.

He probably did for the same reason Bobby Kotick did. The goal is to mobilize guilds/fleets as monetization engines, by making them pay for services necessary to be competitive.

For this reason, bigger is better, the individual has less power.

mikewendell wrote: »

The sliding scale wouldn't work. if I ran a large fleet and saw that opportunity, I'd either start a new fleet just for the purpose of building that starbase as cheaply as possible or I'd boot everybody, build the thing and invite them back. The idea, while a good one, is just too easy to abuse.

Or you could just kill the stupid idea of turning socialization into a grind.

And it IS a stupid idea. Taking something fun and organic (socializing) and making it into something tedious and contrived (a grind) is an eminently stupid idea. It's one of those kinds of really stupid fads, like something out of Dilbert, that drags down whole industries.

mikewendell wrote: »

As to the "a one man fleet isn;t a fleet" well in the game it is. If you want to contradict what Cryptic allows, more power to you. Feel free to open a support ticket and ask that all one man fleets get burned.

Because PWE's notions of guild structure are infallible, right?

If you don't believe that they are infallible then your fatalistic argument is worthless. The question then becomes what alternative ideas of structure PWE should embrace.

mikewendell wrote: »

So far I've not had a problem.

Good for you. Others have. So why are you posting?

shadore · July 2012

It doesn't TRIBBLE over small fleets. Your problem is you expect your small fleet to build its starbase at the same rate and pace as a big one. That's not going to happen. A fleet with 500 members is going to be able to produce 100x the resources as a 5 man fleet. If you want to build your starbase faster then add more members. If you're dead set on having a small fleet then expect building a starbase to take longer.

carmenara · July 2012

forjoatinxan wrote: »

So I log in today to schedule the special assignment. Then I see that in order to complete it, we have to first complete the previous special assignment -- which requires 600 fleet marks. I had this queued just in case we filled up all of the other assignment queues but we have never put a single fleet mark in it.

Fleet leaders really need some way to pause, disable, or cancel projects. We can cancel DOff assignments -- why not fleet ones?

As it stands, unless our small fleet of about 5 actives are able to grind (and make no mistake, it IS A GRIND) out 600 marks, we'll miss out on this assignment.

Hard way to learn not to pre-queue.

-Forjo

Just a small tip mate - 600 FMs is not hard to grind with an active team of 5.

All you have to do is run Marks events during Marks hour and excel at them. You should get 20-25 or more marks per man, multiplied by 5, and you can run at least 4 events per hour.

Another exploit is enable all the Tholian missions during Marks hour and play them later. You will still get the bonus Fleet Marks (15 per quest I believe) even if you turn them in long after the event ended.

As for construction and provisioning resources, my fleet has an active contribution count of about... 3 chief financiers, and we're at Tier II already. As others have posted, all it takes is a bit of pre-planning and "FCA liquidation" to get resources and duty officers cheap.

sollvax · July 2012

or run incursion

swap alt

Run incursion again

Swap alt

run incursion again

Swap alt

And so on

can clock up about a full projects worth per event without leaving starbase

zebular · July 2012

There needs to also be smaller projects that reward less but would give some sense of progression for smaller fleets. Everything in this game is getting so ridiculously inflated, it is becoming more of an annoyance than fun anymore. It is no longer STO, it is now DGRO - Dilithium Grind Repetition Online. I miss how the game was in the first months. I'd resubscribe to that STO in a heart-beat.

deadspacex64 · July 2012

as much as i dislike DDO, they did do one thing well in creating guilds...scaling for small, medium and large guilds. where smaller guilds could be equal to large ones. STO's version however is 'grab as many warm bodies as you can' approach which is reflected in how many randon invites my non-fleet characters were getting per hour, and how many adverts pert hour in the major hubs.

many fleets don't even care who you are since there's no penalties for grabbing randoms to fill up your projects faster, only bonuses. quantity over quality.

that's a sad state of affairs when the trek universe is nothing more than quantity. the horde approach to starbase building -.-;

needs to be a sliding scale for project costs. small fleets want to be small for a reason, medium fleets the same, and the large fleets as well. as it is small fleets are penalized since they cannot hope to cover the resource costs as ably as medium or large fleets.

been seeing more adverts lately from small fleets 'looking ot expand' more like forced to expand once their initial tier is done, and their surplus is dry. there's no quality to the starbases, just what fleet has the most people. pure quantity.

zebular · July 2012

deadspacex64 wrote: »

as much as i dislike DDO, they did do one thing well in creating guilds...scaling for small, medium and large guilds. where smaller guilds could be equal to large ones. STO's version however is 'grab as many warm bodies as you can' approach which is reflected in how many randon invites my non-fleet characters were getting per hour, and how many adverts pert hour in the major hubs.

many fleets don't even care who you are since there's no penalties for grabbing randoms to fill up your projects faster, only bonuses. quantity over quality.

that's a sad state of affairs when the trek universe is nothing more than quantity. the horde approach to starbase building -.-;

needs to be a sliding scale for project costs. small fleets want to be small for a reason, medium fleets the same, and the large fleets as well. as it is small fleets are penalized since they cannot hope to cover the resource costs as ably as medium or large fleets.

been seeing more adverts lately from small fleets 'looking ot expand' more like forced to expand once their initial tier is done, and their surplus is dry. there's no quality to the starbases, just what fleet has the most people. pure quantity.

I completely agree. Starbases were a good idea, the art team did a fantastic job but their mechanics and usefulness towards all types of fleets, large and small, were not very well thought out and has been poorly implemented. There is at least one good thing left in the game and that is the artwork. At least the game still "looks" like Star Trek. Unfortunately, it no longer feels like it.

baudl · July 2012

it has been known from start that the fleet system is not designed around small fleets. It is a decission all of you made when joining a small fleet or one man fleet. The system didn't TRIBBLE you, you screwed yourself..by choice.

shadore · July 2012

deadspacex64 wrote: »

'grab as many warm bodies as you can'

Stop discriminating against cold blooded Gorn!

deadspacex64 · July 2012

shadore wrote: »

Stop discriminating against cold blooded Gorn!

my abject apologies -.-

how about...any mobile/semi-mobile sentient or semi-sentient lifeform?

sollvax · July 2012

corporeal or non corporeal

carmenara · July 2012

baudl wrote: »

it has been known from start that the fleet system is not designed around small fleets. It is a decission all of you made when joining a small fleet or one man fleet. The system didn't TRIBBLE you, you screwed yourself..by choice.

Correct.

Cryptic makes what we in another world might call "business decisions". It's their choice to focus on large, wealthy guilds and let them sink resources into base building, and to use that artificial form of peer pressure that results to create even more revenue through FSM purchases.

There will be significant revenue for small guilds out there too who are either forced to 'do more with less' and be patient, or if they want fast progress they can use Zen for alternative means of financing.

I don't think the SB construction is inaccessible to small guilds at all, it just needs a different management and development strategy. A new guild if it can run with a solid strategy and grow its community gradually can and will progress through the tiers - perhaps not as quick as a giant fleet can, but the end result is just as satisfying or perhaps even more so - because the small guild didn't just Zerg rush the construction process, it had to plan and strategize and move to exploit temporary market trends for financial victory (and with funds, the ability to procure new starbase tiers and all sorts of items to benefit their guild).

I deliberately wanted to start a small guild and let it run amok on SB construction with a strong team building and "newbies first" ethos.

My message to OP is, who said small guilds can't build bases? The end result will be all the more satisfying with a small fleet, as it's much more hands-on as you have to manage not just project strategy but also acquisition as well.

I'll be happy to support OP's fleets with said acquisition of resources if it comes to that, because I just commenced KDF starbase construction with an even smaller pool of cowboys this time.. and it hit tier 1 with rapid speed thanks to strategic prepositioning of resources

lordosiris · July 2012

There are a lot of people in big fleets whining about the fact that they can't get any fleet credits becaus the projects are filled up so quick they don't have a chance to get some.

There is one solution for big and small fleets and thats cooperation and teamwork

deadspacex64 · July 2012

at a guess...the voices here wanting to keep the status quo of large fleets growing faster than small ones either are in a large fleet or are leaders of large fleets. pretty typical for them to want to maintain what they see as their uberness...get all the goodies before anyone else can even come close in smaller fleets. and of course brag.

same types who post very rares or what not in ds9 all the time i reckon. measure their worth by what they have >.>

also gives them the ability...albeit false to look down on the smaller slower growing fleets, makes them feel all superior. when in actuality they've done nothing but grab every person they could. their fleet didn't grow through quality of personal...but through quantity.

so...yeah, can kinda get why you people like the system the way it is. e-peen strokage and all that rot. make excuses for why it's set up the way it is. money? cryptic would get more if smaller fleets could grow faster duh. since you can't build a shipyard or get higher tier fleet ships without a lot of investment (resources) if the system was scaled by fleet size...small and medium sized fleet bases growing as fast as large fleet bases...well then, fleet ships of higher tiers would become available sooner = more cash.

nice try making it about money, fail try, but nice attempt

forjoatinxan · July 2012

carmenara wrote: »

My message to OP is, who said small guilds can't build bases? The end result will be all the more satisfying with a small fleet, as it's much more hands-on as you have to manage not just project strategy but also acquisition as well.

I'll be happy to support OP's fleets with said acquisition of resources if it comes to that, because I just commenced KDF starbase construction with an even smaller pool of cowboys this time.. and it hit tier 1 with rapid speed thanks to strategic prepositioning of resources

You misunderstood my post. The "TRIBBLE" I refer to is that resources can be tied up on a project and you must complete that project before starting a time-limited project. For a small fleet, it's can be difficult to quickly respond to that kind of scenario.

And guess what? Nukara has been nerfed -- there are cooldowns on the medium missions now. So you can't get marks nearly as fast.

We haven't gotten to Tier 1 yet, but I'm hearing that resource requirements go up dramatically. I'll see when I get there. But all of this "stategic planning" and talks of "market trends" sound a lot like work. This is a GAME. What will happen is that we'll just sit on these projects and they'll get filled when they get filled. And two or three years from now you'll have tons of small fleets that aren't even tier 3 (if they're even still participating in the system). That is, unless we are forced to progress the starbase as a gate to highly desirable content.

We were promised that higher tiers wouldn't be "required" for success. But it wouldn't be the first time a promise was broken. Look at the new trend to character-only unlocks for large sums of Zen. Fleet ships that cost MUCH more than C-store ships in comparison.

Anyway, I've gotten off topic with the rest of you. I just want a way to pause or cancel a project. In not allowing that, Cryptic has screwed small fleets. The rest I leave to others to debate.

-Forjo

thecosmic1 · July 2012

forjoatinxan wrote: »

But all of this "stategic planning" and talks of "market trends" sound a lot like work. This is a GAME.

I just want to address this one part. To you it might be a game. To others it's something more. There are PvPers who spend hundreds of hours tweaking their builds just to get a 0.01% increase in something. They're just playing a game. There are PvEers who spends hundreds of hours tweaking to get the perfect STF build. They're just playing a game, and so on. Saying something is a game really means different things to different people. And MMOs, where you must interact with others and play through systems not just designed for a single person, does mean at times you're going to need to plan things.

recksracer · July 2012

azurianstar wrote: »

It's not hard to get Marks. You can easily get 500 to 1000 Marks during the Tholian Even when on Nukara. But I agree, we should be able to cancel the projects. Especially those that are on standby for the next project.

But as a Small Fleet Leader, I'm not happy with these "Limited Time" Projects that cost 200,000 Dilithum. My little fleet isn't rich and can drop that kind of funds on a whim. (People tell us to recruit, well there is a reason we chose to be small).

Why "limited time" offers in a time-gated fashion? Why can't fleets be allowed to choose their own decoration projects at the time they choose fit?

Simply no.

The reason that ypu can't drop assignments is so you can't start it, fulfill the easy parts for fleet marks. rinse. repeat.

Dont blame the game because the dumbass in charge of your fleet projects made a bad choice. The requirements for the project are shown before selection. What more do you want?

aestu · July 2012

carmenara wrote: »

Cryptic makes what we in another world might call "business decisions". It's their choice to focus on large, wealthy guilds and let them sink resources into base building, and to use that artificial form of peer pressure that results to create even more revenue through FSM purchases.

I don't think the SB construction is inaccessible to small guilds at all...My message to OP is, who said small guilds can't build bases

So let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. You're saying small guilds should struggle to have fun playing a game that has been deliberately contrived to be less fun for them, so PWE can keep making money?

Logic would suggest that if the game has been designed to be less fun for small fleets, then those small fleets should just pack their bags and go play Guild Wars 2 or something.

The funny part is, as WoW demonstrated, that is exactly what WILL happen, whether it's "logical" or not. All these arguments about what players can or should do are moot. It's obvious from experience what players WILL do.

Mr Kotick and Mr Street thought that players would just tolerate the terrible Guild Perk system (WoW's version of the Fleet Mark system) because it would be convenient for their "business decisions". What happened instead was those players who weren't happy with the system's bias against small fleets simply quit playing and the game lost over two million players in a little over a year.

Way to TRIBBLE the small fleets Cryptic!

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