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I have a very bad feeling about this...
cpthardcover
Member Posts: 31 Arc User
So, like many people, I was... unenthusiastic when I saw the plans for the release of the Starfleet and KDF EVA suits. Don't get me wrong; this is something I've been wanting for a while. But not paying $7 per character, per suit. I'd be much more likely to get it if it were a one-time unlock, and I suspect most people would.
But that's not really what I'm sitting here to talk about.
Off and on over the last five years, I've been playing this little sci-fi MMO some of you might have heard of called EVE Online. I know, it's one of those games that people either love or hate, and to be honest, I've loved it more than I've hated it. And I've seen a lot of things happen while I've played EVE. And as I read the dev blog regarding the new EVA suits, it felt really familiar. I couldn't pin it down until I remembered what happened when CCP, the developers of EVE, came out with their "Incarna" expansion.
For those of you unaware, a bit of explanation. For literally years, players in EVE Online were never able to leave their ships. You created a face at character creation, but it was never seen other than a tiny little version of it that got used in the chat window. Giving players the ability to leave their ships was something that had been coming Soon(TM) for years. And, finally, about a year ago, Incarna hit and we finally could leave our ships and CCP introduced a new currency and a store for it, where people would buy new clothes for their characters.
The problems a lot of people had were that these clothes could be lost in combat, and the prices were pretty high. While CCP did say that they had plans to release both cheaper and more expensive clothes, they led with stuff anywhere from $10-$25, topped off by what has to be the most expensive "micro" transaction I have ever seen: a monocle for a single EVE Online character, priced at the equivalent of $65. People protested the price point - paying that much for a purely cosmetic item seemed pointless to many, and still does. In fact, this whole incident, dubbed "Monoclegate" by the EVE community, was to be the tip of the iceberg, with many other incidents and factors culminating in hundreds if not thousands of players converging on the two top trade hubs in the game in protest, as well as many players deciding to cancel their accounts.
From where I sit, I'm seeing some significant parallels from Monoclegate to this whole thing with the EVA suits. Perhaps even more disturbingly, I'm also seeing the potential for this to become the future of STO; a future I am in no way supportive of, one where players are squeezed for every last penny they'll give.
For myself, I tend to give Cryptic the benefit of the doubt here and lay what blame there is on Perfect World's doorstep. Many things I've seen happen since PWE bought Cryptic I personally suspect have more to do with PWE being, however innocently, at least somewhat tone-deaf to the differences between Asian gamers and Western gamers. Western gamers are, in general, much less tolerant of grind and blatant pay-to-win setups than Asian players are, as evidenced by how none of PWE's games have ever really hit it big in Western markets. And for whatever reason, it seems that PWE doesn't want to learn this, so they're working things like the EVA suit into STO, and I'd be surprised if something like this doesn't make it into Champions in the future.
I tweeted this to BranFlakes, but I'll say it again; in the spirit of trying to help Cryptic and PWE, and perhaps even doing something to keep this game viable, I highly suggest that the lessons of Monoclegate be learned by Cryptic and - perhaps especially - PWE. It may not happen now, but if the EVA suits are a taste of what is to come, then that's the direction I see this game going, and I'd even go so far as to suggest that if it does, then that will perhaps be one of, if not the, final things that will drag this game into oblivion.
But that's not really what I'm sitting here to talk about.
Off and on over the last five years, I've been playing this little sci-fi MMO some of you might have heard of called EVE Online. I know, it's one of those games that people either love or hate, and to be honest, I've loved it more than I've hated it. And I've seen a lot of things happen while I've played EVE. And as I read the dev blog regarding the new EVA suits, it felt really familiar. I couldn't pin it down until I remembered what happened when CCP, the developers of EVE, came out with their "Incarna" expansion.
For those of you unaware, a bit of explanation. For literally years, players in EVE Online were never able to leave their ships. You created a face at character creation, but it was never seen other than a tiny little version of it that got used in the chat window. Giving players the ability to leave their ships was something that had been coming Soon(TM) for years. And, finally, about a year ago, Incarna hit and we finally could leave our ships and CCP introduced a new currency and a store for it, where people would buy new clothes for their characters.
The problems a lot of people had were that these clothes could be lost in combat, and the prices were pretty high. While CCP did say that they had plans to release both cheaper and more expensive clothes, they led with stuff anywhere from $10-$25, topped off by what has to be the most expensive "micro" transaction I have ever seen: a monocle for a single EVE Online character, priced at the equivalent of $65. People protested the price point - paying that much for a purely cosmetic item seemed pointless to many, and still does. In fact, this whole incident, dubbed "Monoclegate" by the EVE community, was to be the tip of the iceberg, with many other incidents and factors culminating in hundreds if not thousands of players converging on the two top trade hubs in the game in protest, as well as many players deciding to cancel their accounts.
From where I sit, I'm seeing some significant parallels from Monoclegate to this whole thing with the EVA suits. Perhaps even more disturbingly, I'm also seeing the potential for this to become the future of STO; a future I am in no way supportive of, one where players are squeezed for every last penny they'll give.
For myself, I tend to give Cryptic the benefit of the doubt here and lay what blame there is on Perfect World's doorstep. Many things I've seen happen since PWE bought Cryptic I personally suspect have more to do with PWE being, however innocently, at least somewhat tone-deaf to the differences between Asian gamers and Western gamers. Western gamers are, in general, much less tolerant of grind and blatant pay-to-win setups than Asian players are, as evidenced by how none of PWE's games have ever really hit it big in Western markets. And for whatever reason, it seems that PWE doesn't want to learn this, so they're working things like the EVA suit into STO, and I'd be surprised if something like this doesn't make it into Champions in the future.
I tweeted this to BranFlakes, but I'll say it again; in the spirit of trying to help Cryptic and PWE, and perhaps even doing something to keep this game viable, I highly suggest that the lessons of Monoclegate be learned by Cryptic and - perhaps especially - PWE. It may not happen now, but if the EVA suits are a taste of what is to come, then that's the direction I see this game going, and I'd even go so far as to suggest that if it does, then that will perhaps be one of, if not the, final things that will drag this game into oblivion.
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Fleet leader Nova Elite
Fleet Leader House of Nova elite
@ren_larreck
They're adding canon Federation and new EVA suits to the C-Store tomorrow.
700 ZEN.
Each.
Not account wide.
Per suit.
Nothing else included.
Stats slightly worse than the Tholian set suit.
Fleet leader Nova Elite
Fleet Leader House of Nova elite
@ren_larreck
STO = F2P
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I do have to agree with this right here.
While I think the prices are high for the EVA suits.. to compare it to the monocle problem in eve is not fair. Here is why
1. eve is a subscription
2. the monocle was 70 dollars.
3. CCP knows when to listen to their fans, and what to do to keep them happy.
Just look at where EVE has gone, and is going in the future after that. we didn't like the monocle, and our out rage has caused them to release good looking lower priced items. Added to that they have added HUGE expansions that really added a lot to EVE, and is about to launch a free to play FPS that ties into EVE where FPS players and EVE players work together to make money, take over planets, and expand their empires. ( I can't wait to bombard them from space.
So I don't think it is a fair comparison, unless cryptic starts acting like CCP and starts doing some great things. Yeah star bases are great and all, but compared to what has been released in EVE. in my opinion. it doesn't hold a candle.
Seriously, like any business, what are they doing wrong? I guess YOU don't think it's right, but who are you, really?
I get the whole "I think the game game should charge me this" idea, but I don't get who you are to think you know what TRIBBLE is worth..
Fleet Ships are $20 per ship (per character) and not a permanent unlock, so if you lose it, you have to buy it again. And if you want the $5 version, you have to buy a C-store version, which is limited only to the Tier 5 ships and not the other C-store ships. (Those Ship pieces are going for $50 mil on the exchange last I checked).
These recent decisions have really made me feel less like a valued customer and more than just a floating wallet. And it's really causing a negative atmosphere that I really am having trouble continuing supporting STO.
And regardless of the pricing, there must be some customers up there willing to pay it. If it's not, it'll be lowered or dropped.
The biggest problem with the Cryptic = Players relationship is, right now, that Cryptic has a significant portion of the base over a barrel. Some of us don't want a sci-fi MMO, we particularly want a STAR TREK MMO. And, they've got the market on that cornered. So the game will become how much they can milk that market before it simply cannot give anymore. The simplest way to do that is jack prices until the demand plummets, then ease them back. In most retail markets, that would work. In MMOs and many service industries, the customer base will abandon you permanently regardless of price (most people remember the price-to-service of a restaurant long after it's been fixed. Peanut butter, not so much).
I think that PWE might be looking at their games as peanut butter, rather than a restaurant. In Asia, that might work. In America, it doesn't. But I'm afraid that STO won't be the game to teach them, as I feel that a large portion of the fanbase has significantly more product loyalty than will be exhausted before STO collapses under price gouging.
^ This is the sad mind set that is sweeping the entire video game industry. not just STO, but everywhere. The change away from gamers being consumers who buy a product to something else. something who has no control. Saying we have no right to judge the quality of a product. It is not a good thing that is happening. It will cause quality to be lost in the gaming industry.
But let me explain who are we.. We are consumers. we buy their products. Without us the consumer there is no them. simple as that. there is no cryptic if there is no consumer. there is no STO without players, and there is no product without someone to buy it.
so what gives us the right to say what something is worth. the fact that we pay money for it. that is what gives us the right. a consumer has a choice on what he buys. we get to choose what it is worth. sure some of us see it different. Where you might see 7 dollars for a single use costume is okay. I don't. I think 3 dollars is worth it if it is single use. or maybe 10 dollars for an account unlock for all characters, but to me it is not worth it.
What gives me the right to set this price on what it is worth. The fact that I am a consumer. I work for my money, and because of that I get to choose where I spend my money. I also get to choose if a product is worth it or not. To me the product being produced is not worth the price. So I am not going to buy it..
But there is more to it. Sure I am only one person, but what if we add more consumers. What if a lot of us don't like the price of the product. what if we don't feel it is worth it together. Should we just shut up or say it is the best product ever.. or do we do something about it.
You see being a consumer. you have a right to show them your disagreement with their products. A good amount of us don't see the products as worth it, so we have a right to let the producer know about it. We have a right to voice our grievances about the product, and in turn the producer has a choice to make. If the group is big enough. they can go back and fix the product to make the consumers happy.. Or they ignore us, and in doing so also lose money.
It is a balance. How upset is your consumer base vs how much money you will lose. Do we fix it to keep people happy, or do we let them go on with their money in hopes of still making profits. It all depends on how far they are willing to push it. while keeping the majority happy.
But who are we and what gives us the right to say what a product is worth. Once again. it is because we are the consumer, we buy their products, and without us there is no them. That is what gives us the right. It is simple as that. It is apart of the beauty of the free market.
Ummmm stuff that for a joke. Nice one Pakled World...
***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
i disagree with the way that these suits function and their cost and i feel cryptic/PW will see the error of their ways and this item will fail to sell as expected and i think they would have made more money if they had charged 350 zen for a costume option than 700 zen for a piece of TRIBBLE... now if it were for a set that offered better stats than the nukara set i would go for it but for a one off one time single character ev suit that is not even as good as the one i have now this item can go ahead and qualify as a fail. I think this price and the fact that they dressed the npcs in these suits if they released these for 700 zen when season 6 dropped then they would have sold more.
now to address the point of the rage over these items.... there is no requirement that you purchase these or any item in game with zen you can play this game and never spend $1. If you choose to that is your option. The person who tied this in with fleet ships (which i dont see the connection) you want something ELSE for free? you want a ship better than the cstore ship but you dont want to pay real money for it? well fair enough there are several ships that cost only 200k fleet credits and if you dont have fleet credits then participate in your fleet more. if you dont want one of those ships then do what the rest of us do and buy one or be quiet. oh and yes i said something ELSE.. meaning you get ships for free you get gear for free and hell you even get to play for free so why are you complaining? and before you whip back that you are a lifer or a gold member and do pay for the game use your stipend and get over it if you truly are.
I have said it before and i have said it again if you hate this game so much and are so absolutely miserable playing it close the game and uninstall the damn thing and go elsewhere. the whiney emo bit is not cool and nobody is impressed by it.
I for one see no issue in them selling there products to us even if they are digital you can buy it and like it and play with it or you can just not buy it and not play with it but still play the game. i dont really see how this is an issue. they have to make money so the game can still be playable however the game being free to play doesnt generate a monthly income from its player base so stop complaining. Besides you dont have to spend any money what so ever you can still buy them with the dil conversion
Captain, U.S.S Transcendent
Explorers Fleet, Senior Member
You know, now that I think about it, that membership fee should also entitle me to a say in how they plan their store layouts, what items they should be allowed to stock and what they can sell them for.
And hey, what's with having to push those carts around and fill them with stuff? I pay $110 a year, have to grind for my own groceries and then pay for them? These guys are cheating me! How hard can it be for them to design a system where I can just wait in the parking lot while somebody else does it for me? Honestly, can't they see they're ruining the store and making everyone leave?
I'm sorry, but that argument no longer flies when they are taking advantage of us.
With the EVA suits, these character only sets for $7 (doesn't look like these are permanent unlocks either). But right now on the C-store you can get costume unlocks with gear for far less than what they are offering.
With the new Fleet ships, sure we can have an option for a slightly subpar Fleet ship for 200,000, but the others require you to purchase $20 from the C-store to fly these ships, which is not only character only, but if you dismiss it, you have to pay again to get another ship! But if you buy a C-store ship, you can dismiss it at will.
So you can justify it being F2P, but a bad deal is a bad deal.
Now, if they made the EVA Suits Account-Wide, and made the suit itself superior or enpar with the MK12 Tholian Crystaline EVA Suit. And at the same time, making Fleet Ships account-wide unlocks and made the prices more fair, then things would be completely different.
Many of you haven't spent a dime in months (if at all) - so your opinion on things isn't as crucial to the game's existence. Wake up.
Sorry to disappoint, but I've spent quite a bit in these last few weeks in trying out these new lockboxes and finishing expanding DOFF slots on another character. Honestly, I've spent far more than I should've.
Quit whining you bunch of whining little whiners.
Try 11 characters x 700 ZEN + 19% VAT and that Eve Monocle seems cheap all of a sudden.
And now try 30 Characters...
Eve Monocle doesn't have sh*t on the C-Store Shenanigans we get to see here lately.
In a Perfect World, this EVA suit would have been a DROP from the Nukara Boss Tholian.
As it is i have no reason to play Nukara, and the map is even bugged
(some memory leak that makes the Framerate drop from 60 to 30 over time, beaming up and down and the same map + instance runs at 60 fps again for a few minutes until it goes slowly slower again...)
the only good thing here?
I don't like ANY of the EVA-Suit maps so Cryptic can keep their EVA Suits and i keep my $ Zen and EC.
The bad thing? I'm getting bored and play more Battlefield 3 again, at least there i have some feeling of progression and the gameplay is adrenalin pumping while STO feels more like an interactive Screensaver (always the same routine...).
These suits are targeted at the 1% of that 10% who actually spend money on everything they put in the c-store.
They could have at least given it some sort of special ability which makes it stand out from the other suits.
If only it was that simple. but on STO you would be a fool to sub because tbh... Subs get equally beaten with a stick to drain every last penny out of them.
If only being a Sub on STO wasnt so damn unrewarding....
I and many sane people would rather give 12 euro's a month and not worry about being robbed of coin left and right. Then go F2P and pay yourself blind and lose all track of your expenses.
Sadly in STO, if you want the "safeness" that subs provide in other MMO, then you'll be disappointed.
If i wasnt a lifetimer i prob would not be here anymore to suffer the abuse.
the only people i see buying these are
#1 players who only have 1 character to begin with and don't care that they are PER CHARACTER
#2 players who just want to sell the item on the exchange for easy EC ( = market gamers )
Sorry I'm late. I love me a good "We're DOOMED" thread.
700 Zen is kinda crazy, but Cryptic seems to have a history with experimenting with prices. And maybe down the line the price will go down. The basic Doff pack has gone down in price recently so it has happened.
Its kinda crazy something like the Delta Flyer account wide unlock is cheaper then this. I figured 500 Zen was the sweet spot for Cstore stuff because it would make it easy for an LTS to spend their stipend on.
But what ever. I guess the folks who really want it will just have to wait till the halloween sale when costumes get a price cut.
It actually makes your opinion more relevant, not necessarily more important or more valid. I said the opinions of those who don't support the game monetarily are less 'crucial' to it's existence. That doesn't mean they are wrong or irrelevant. But they act otherwise. Its unproductive.
I would prefer, ideally, that their marketing strategy would heavily consider expanding upon that 10% customer base, but they have decided to take a different approach.
p.s. I had a good laugh at your diagnosis of me.
LooL.. looks like you are new.. prices never go down in STO. They can change the currency or what ever.. but they never reconsider prizes.
I am not even going to argue with that, is so wrong at so many levels, that it is insulting.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Good Article!
The solution is simple: don't buy the suit.
Now, if we want to have a sensible discussion on whether Cryptic would generate more revenue by selling the suit cheaper to more people or as it is to fewer...
Aside from the F2P price tweaking, I don't think there has ever been a case of Cryptic experimenting with prices. Historically, the prices have remained constant, but the items have changed occasionally.
The Delta Flyer has fewer missions specifically tailored to it than the EV suits at the moment.
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor