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Should there be "Beam Rapid Fire" and "Cannon Overload"?
sophlogimo
Member Posts: 6,507 Arc User
Looking at the numbers for the various tactical abilties, I wonder why there are no Beam versions of the Cannon Rapid Fire abilties, and no cannon versions of Beam Overload?
By adding such variety, I think one would make more builds viable. Right now, escorts can only ever hope to be successful as cannon/turret escorts, because there is no real chance to use multiple beams as effectively as multiple cannons.
And on the other side, an all-cannon escort with a "Cannon Overload" ability could also be very interesting in some situations...
What's your opinion about this?
By adding such variety, I think one would make more builds viable. Right now, escorts can only ever hope to be successful as cannon/turret escorts, because there is no real chance to use multiple beams as effectively as multiple cannons.
And on the other side, an all-cannon escort with a "Cannon Overload" ability could also be very interesting in some situations...
What's your opinion about this?
Remember, STO is nothing but a cosmetics game, where only the rule of cool matters. The game mechanics are intentionally out of balance, don't try to "optimize" anything, as it would just frustrate you.
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BO just neds an overhaul IMHO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q6jZC1sn1A&t=4m5s
The battle begins at 4:05 into the clip (incase the link doesn't work). At aprox 5:30 in, the Enterprise begins rapidly firing the phasers. There's also a cool scene when Picard orders "Fire all weapons" which gives off a similar effect.
I support the idea of adding a "Beam Rapid Fire" ability, but i'm not as certain about "Cannon Overload". Although I love the "Beam Overload", I think the current Overload ability should be removed, and in it's place, allow ANY weapon to be overloaded. I would say an Overload Beam Weapon, or an Overload Torpedo Tube, would cause 25% increased damage, but in doing so, severely reduces weapons power for a short while, AND a high chance of disabling the weapon system for a few seconds.
Basically every weapon type in the game scales its base/potential damage almost directly against its firing arc. So it goes from turrets, to beams, all way up to torps and DCs/DHCs. It's a clever way on Cryptic's part of compensating for the fact that if all weapons had 360 arcs, people would just run DHCs on everything and smaller ships would be automatically weaker than the largest ones. However, since DHCs have such a small firing arc and since non-escorts have such a slovenly turn rate, the escort's fragility is offset by its ability to make high damage weapons work.
If you're trying to make beams more like DHCs, it simply won't happen as it's an integral part of the game mechanics. And as things stand, putting beams on an escort is intentionally gimping yourself, you're not using your ability to maneuver or your access to high damage weaponry. It can sort of work but it's really a lulz build. BOff skills wouldn't change that at all.
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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
But then I still don't entirely understand the difference between an energy 'cannon' and an energy 'beam' nor why putting two arrays together on a single mount would reduce firing arc so radically to less than that of a single cannon.
It doesn't really make sense (if anything a continuous beam would be far more powerful than a cannon, unless the cannon is physically unloading some kind of matter projectile), but you know, we sacrifice science in service to our eldritch gaming gods and all that.
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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Overload is not meant to be an opener mainly, but a finisher.
That is actually wrong, a pulsed effect is more effective against matter, we don't have shields yet to say how that would work. Because when the beam hits matter it vaporizes that matter, creating dust in the pathway of the beam. With a pulse the dust has time to clear out while with a constant beam the dust keeps getting added too, replacing the parts that move out of the beam path. resulting in a slightly blocked beam. Reduced effect on the matter. In a nutshell.
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Also don't forget the rapid fire phasers of the Enterprise E from nemesis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTPdWYo9zhQ&feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHUSpAtemfg&feature=fvwrel
Beam Overload needs to lose the weapon power drain aspect. CRF needs to drop down to an ENS/LT/LTCMD ability progression so it's available for ENS BOs. I don't see any need to change add rapidfire to beams or overload to cannons... it would make beams cookie cutter for PvE and Cannons cookie cutter for PvP.
Other than that, I have no issues.
The way they explain it in Trek technobabble is that the energy emissions are stored in a magnetic field, allowing them to coalesce and agitate to higher energy states. And the pulses are structured like a layered onion. As a result, the target contact is more difficult to disperse than a standard phaser beam.
It's kinda like driving a nail through a sheet of metal with a hammer instead of trying to push it through via constant force.
Wrong. Beams will be used by cruisers and maybe scienc. Cannons will be used by escorts.
Dosen';t matter what the abilities are no escort worth his salt will ever touch beams becuase cannons are such a huge TRIBBLE DPS bost.
Really BO need to affect every shot for 10 seconds like BFAW, lose ther energy drain and drop the Damage boost down (about 1.10th would bring it in line with CRF in terms of boost levels). Right now it add's up to a meagere 8% damage boost with BO3, not counting the negetive effect of the power drain. Add that in and it's actually a sustained DPS NERF. There's really no reason outside of PVP to touch it. Thats just horribad design.
Bear in mind that BO beam skills start at ensign and BO cannon start at Lt.
If they make it so one skill covers, BO/CRF or FAW/CSV, cannons will have a lower tier access to more power allowing escorts to pack more attack patterns and further skew the scales for damage.
Beyond that if you simply open up CRF and CSV for beam use most cruisers do not have the BO slots to really use that to their advantage and escorts stay on top when it comes to dealing damage.
Besides I have done beamer-scorts and they are easier to position for DPS than the beamer cruiser. Beams do not compliment a escort because cannons spike harder. Cruisers are no better at beam use than an escort. For that matter because an escort can afford to supplement FAW and BO with AP03 or especially APB3 escorts can use beams far more effectively.
The way it is now offers a small degree of balance. Messing with that the way the OP suggested will offset that balance more than it already is.
Beams have a wider cone of death, so they need less skill to achieve optimal position. Further, beam skills for BOs start at a lower tier so a beamer-scort can afford to supplement them with higher tier attack patterns more effectively.
Edited to add: Then there is the fact that the beam's cone of death actually compliments the defensive speed bonus an escort enjoys. I have to slow and turn back on a target to get my cannons back into optimal firing position. A beamer-scort just has to fly in a wide circle. So you wanna give a weapon system that actually improves loiter time and spends far more time on target equal damage footing? They do as you suggest and there will be no reason to have cannons in the game at all.
Just going by what the raw numbers are for just cannons vs just beams is painting a disingenuous picture to support your debate.
In TOS, and even in DS9 (during the Klingon War Arc), Klingon Battlecruisers did fire HEAVY dual single-fire shots at their targets.
So in keeping with canon, just have this ability Battlecruiser-only.
Phaser Rapid Fire: I can see the logic of people's arguments regarding this weapon ability. Beam Fire at Will basically already covers this, except you can't easily focus on a single target. Yet the damage potential is the same as Beam Overload.
HOWEVER, if they ever should implement Gattling weaponry (like the famous Gattling Phasers from Wrath of Khan), I could seeing such an ability be a type of rapid burst attack thats specific to this weapon.
This could be like the long phaser burst attack that Khan used to wound the Enterprise. So in exchange for heavy damage, you would have a side effect of reduced weapon power for a duration (as the weapon needs to recharge).
I already addressed what you're talking about (and what you're talking about was not what I was originally discussing, in any case). Beams will never reach the same single-target DPS as DHCs because otherwise there'd be no reason to fly escorts (or take DHCs for that matter). It's part of the integral game balance that keeps all weapon types viable.
The fact that FAW and C:RF are different was exactly my point. FAW is more versatile; it can be used to put on heavy pressure damage against a whole team, for clearing pet spam, etc. C:RF is good for one and one thing only, and that's murdering a single person extremely fast before they have time to react.
I'm not against stronger single-target beam powers in theory (most cruisers won't have the BOff slots to make use of them anyway) but there has to be a limit. Keeping someone in your narrow 45 front arc with everything else going on is difficult enough without giving someone who literally doesn't even have to be facing you the same rewards.
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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
You cannot increase fire power without decreasing the arc, when you do this you have weapons that we call cannons.
I'm not sure if you understand just how weak C:RF-buffed turrets are.
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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I agree but what would you take away from the Rapid fire beam arrays? To make them balanced.
What I have been suggesting for the sovy refit which they could do is make a console maybe that boost the firing rate of beams? down side of this is that it take away a console slot, or they could make this ability which only when u equip a certain number of beams, lets say 6 for example, on a ship you will get this ability? This is just some ideas I just thought of.