Okay, let's say I wanted to build a torp boat. Slightly off topic 'cause I'm gonna try it in my Defiant-R. 3 Purple PWOs, 2 quantums, 2 DHCs. What about consoles? 2 for DHCs and 2 for the quantums? Or straight quantum consoles?
If I were you I would use DCs and Tetryon, not DHCs. More procs of shield stripping means torps land on hull more.
Okay, I am going to update the first post with what I think is the most consistent information from this discussion.
As a note, I believe that using photons because of the console and the synergy with damage buffs is a mistake. Firstly, as someone else pointed out, you will still do more dmg with quantums even without buffing the console (3 min cooldown, doesn't add much). Secondly, the console is kinda junk, and I would advise using an extra field console (science) or neutronium (engineer) instead. You will live longer, and thus do more DPS .
Here is a quote of Cygone and the Torpedo tests he performed back in mid April. These were done for his intrepid torp boat (fantastic build btw - http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=265786), but discuss the same question: "Quantum vs. Photon vs. Rapid Reload Transphasic, which is best?"
I can't use 3 Doffs, because I am using 2xDevelopment Lab Scientists and 1xTractor Specialist, this means I can only use 2 Projectile Weapon Doffs, so Photons are the better options for DPS. Frankly, I dont think I would want to use another Doff slot just to ekk out that smidgen of DPS from 3Q/3D
Tests were done in a 1v1 PvP situation, torps were set to autofire, no THY or TS used, parser counted the shots and the time elapsed.
Here is a quote of Cygone and the Torpedo tests he performed back in mid April. These were done for his intrepid torp boat (fantastic build btw - http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=265786), but discuss the same question: "Quantum vs. Photon vs. Rapid Reload Transphasic, which is best?"
Food for thought.
I find his conclusions really strange. He has just proven Quantum Launchers out damage photons and goes on to say photons are better? Why has he said that? The test shows Quantums win out on damage and DPS even with only 2 doffs and one is blue. It also seems that with 2 launchers the cap is 111torpdeos. I bet if he upgraded that blue doff to purple then his Quantum launcher would have pulled even further ahead in DPS over photons.
If you don't have hard numbers then you don't have anything, and did not see anything.
Just because this run was faster than average, doesn't mean your one ship out of five ships was completely the deciding factor.
Maybe you had a handful of good players on the run, maybe you had someone wise enough to pack APB for the group.
Regardless, the only way to actually test your build is to run a combatlog and parse it.
True. I posted my initial reaction. I didn't have time to monkey with a parser last night. It will probably be a week before I can. What I'm getting at is that, based on limited results, it's worth looking into. I thought I'd done it to death and deleted the parser I was using. But, I may play with it a little.
I find his conclusions really strange. He has just proven Quantum Launchers out damage photons and goes on to say photons are better? Why has he said that? The test shows Quantums win out on damage and DPS even with only 2 doffs and one is blue. It also seems that with 2 launchers the cap is 111torpdeos. I bet if he upgraded that blue doff to purple then his Quantum launcher would have pulled even further ahead in DPS over photons.
His question was exploring a 3 Torp Launcher boat, but yes, his data shows that at 2 launchers, Quantums perform better. This is all rough math, so I apologize if I made any poor assumptions / errors
131 Quantums, all hitting hull would be 434,003
147 Photons, all hitting hull would be 438,060
Photons are now ahead of Quantums by a marginal ~1%.
The way I read the data is when you get unlucky and fail to hit the max fire rate Quantums are within 1% of Photons. But when the triggers work and you hit the cap Quantums overtake Photons. If you look at Rapid fire Transphasic which are effectively Quantums being 8sec torpedoes you see they hit the cap almost. That means Quantums can hit that cap as well just not every single time with blue doffs.
So Quantums are within Photons damage range but often Quantums overtake photons in DPS. More reason to go with Quantums was thats tested with blue Doffs. One would expect with purple Doffs Quantums would more often than not hit the cap and be ahead of Photons which have no room for faster fireing.
The above is assuming 111 torpedoes is about the cap for 2 launchers, 148 is about the cap for 3 launchers. I know from experience the 4th launcher pretty much always fails to fires to when capped out on speed. (EDIT2: You can only fire 1 torpedo every 2 seconds so 147 is the cap over 300seconds.)
EDIT; To clarify it looks like with looks like 3 Photons launchers shoot 147 torpedoes. Quantum will shoot somewhere around 131 to 147 torpedoes depending on chance triggers. But if you upgrade fully to purple DOffs you should pretty much see Quantum always at the cap at 147.
The way I read the data is when you get unlucky and fail to hit the max fire rate Quantums are within 1% of Photons. But when the triggers work and you hit the cap Quantums overtake Photons. If you look at Rapid fire Transphasic which are effectively Quantums being 8sec torpedoes you see they hit the cap almost. That means Quantums can hit that cap as well just not every single time with blue doffs.
So Quantums are within Photons damage range but often Quantums overtake photons in DPS. More reason to go with Quantums was thats tested with blue Doffs. One would expect with purple Doffs Quantums would more often than not hit the cap and be ahead of Photons which have no room for faster fireing.
The above is assuming 111 torpedoes is about the cap for 2 launchers, 148 is about the cap for 3 launchers. I know from experience the 4th launcher pretty much always fails to fires to when capped out on speed. (EDIT2: You can only fire 1 torpedo every 2 seconds so 147 is the cap over 300seconds.)
EDIT; To clarify it looks like with looks like 3 Photons launchers shoot 147 torpedoes. Quantum will shoot somewhere around 131 to 147 torpedoes depending on chance triggers. But if you upgrade fully to purple DOffs you should pretty much see Quantum always at the cap at 147.
Now here's my question:
Cygone's build is designed around shield stripping, with the goal of getting to the bare hull faster - and to that effect he is limited to 2 PWOs to keep the rest of the build functioning.
That build is very specifically a Sci ship - so how can we make this passable/viable for an STF focused escort?
Cygone's build is designed around shield stripping, with the goal of getting to the bare hull faster - and to that effect he is limited to 2 PWOs to keep the rest of the build functioning.
That build is very specifically a Sci ship - so how can we make this passable/viable for an STF focused escort?
2x DCs and 3xTurrets, tetryon, put skill points into flow capacitors, use the armitage and use advanced delta flyers, run 2x quantums with 3 purple doffs.
2x DCs and 3xTurrets, tetryon, put skill points into flow capacitors, use the armitage and use advanced delta flyers, run 2x quantums with 3 purple doffs.
It's not much of a torpedo boat at that point, and I'm not convinced the resulting DPS would:
A) Be significantly improved vs. Typical DHCx4 or DHCx3 +1 Torp build.
Be worth using 3/5 Active Space Roster slots for the damage increase, if any.
I tried exactly what you describe once before and the log parsings did not show anything impressive.
I tried to imagine a way to move up to a 3rd torp to see if that would tip the scale, but I see no viable way to do that in an escort as you have very limited shield stripping capability.
Cygone's build is designed around shield stripping, with the goal of getting to the bare hull faster - and to that effect he is limited to 2 PWOs to keep the rest of the build functioning.
That build is very specifically a Sci ship - so how can we make this passable/viable for an STF focused escort?
Raw cannon damage to strip shields?
Most targets are without shields in STFs. [borg] on torpedoes do 1000 damage per shot to hull as well as normal damage. With the upcoming changes a Transphasic torpedo with [borg] will be doing over 3000 damage per shot with shields up and 4000+ with shields down (half that currently). With a max fire rate and the upcomeing changes thats 1500dps against shields without Torpedo spread or high yield and no damage loss for range or low energy.
It seems to me [borg] Transphasic or [borg] Quantums are a must for STF runs even if its just a single launcher with torpedo spread for all those unshielded targets. Personally I just use Transphasic and dont care about shields but for most people I think Quantums are best.
It's not much of a torpedo boat at that point, and I'm not convinced the resulting DPS would:
A) Be significantly improved vs. Typical DHCx4 or DHCx3 +1 Torp build.
Be worth using 3/5 Active Space Roster slots for the damage increase, if any.
I tried exactly what you describe once before and the log parsings did not show anything impressive.
I tried to imagine a way to move up to a 3rd torp to see if that would tip the scale, but I see no viable way to do that in an escort as you have very limited shield stripping capability.
Well, two points, first if you start from the assumption that you WANT a torp boat, if you go up to 3 torps, you don't have enough shield stripping power, which makes your torpedo boat an ineffective torpedo boat. As I see it, Torpedo Boat here is defined as the most effective build incorporating the most usage of torpedoes. That means 2x torps and 3x PWO doffs, IMO. No other build is going to be as effective that builds around torpedoes (and I would say devoting 2 of your 4 forward slots to torps is a pretty substantial commitment!).
If you just want what will probably do the most DPS, you want 4xDHCs, period. But that isn't what this is about. I would also add that in certain STFs, the torp boat may pull ahead because of the sheer number of unshielded things to kill, i.e. the cure or maybe KA. When you are churning out quantums 1 every second with HYTs added in, I have to think you crank out more damage than the DHCs. Maybe it isn't greater, but at least it is competitive.
But yeah, moral of the story is, if you want the straught up most reliable DPS out there, the answer is 4xDHCs and 3x Turrets.
My question to you is: On the armitage, with an all cannon build, what do you use the 3rd ensign tac slot for? Hmmmmmaaaaaah? Riddle me THAT. No really, I want to know wtf to do with it.
My question to you is: On the armitage, with an all cannon build, what do you use the 3rd ensign tac slot for? Hmmmmmaaaaaah? Riddle me THAT. No really, I want to know wtf to do with it.
I think that question is a lot more common than with just the Armitage. :P
(Also, I have no answer for you. I'm still kinda trying to figure it out on two of my escorts, and I don't even have the Armitage yet).
If all you care about is maxxing out your DPS score in a parser then that is fairly accurate.
If you actually want to deal with the targets that do have shields, i.e. most of the ones that are not immobile, borderline defenseless objects - then you do in fact have to deal with shields.
Negh'var, Raptors, all Elite Cubes, Donatra, all Spheres (especially the mass of spheres in ISE).
Being able to cut through shields will always be important vs. those targets and they are generally the targets that pose a threat to players.
It seems to me [borg] Transphasic or [borg] Quantums are a must for STF runs even if its just a single launcher with torpedo spread for all those unshielded targets. Personally I just use Transphasic and dont care about shields but for most people I think Quantums are best.
I'm not disagreeing with one launcher, I'm not convinced a true "torpedo" Escort with 3 torpedo launchers is all that great of an idea.
As I see it, Torpedo Boat here is defined as the most effective build incorporating the most usage of torpedoes.
That's a pretty specific definition.
What you go on to describe is a ship that has 2 torpedo launchers out of an available 7 weapon slots. So to me you have more torpedos than usual, but I'm not seeing it as a full torpedo build like Cygone's which is completely centered around Torpedos for the primary DPS contribution.
In my testing quantums work best for tacs, the damage buffs a tac can generate helps to boost the base damage over the damage a photon can do.
Photons work better for engs and scis.
In my testing quantums work best for tacs, the damage buffs a tac can generate helps to boost the base damage over the damage a photon can do.
Photons work better for engs and scis.
IDK. I'm an Engineer and quantums work great for me. Although tacs do have some damage abilities I'm a little envious of.
...3 PWO's of the same quality procing 20% of the time each;
...that their effects stack when more than one procs;
...that the RoF of a weapon can't drop below 1.5s;
...that there's nothing else at play to affect DPS...
...Photon vs. Quantum DPS seems to look something like this:
PHOTON MK XII (Base 2980 damage, 6.5s reload)
# Procs
0
1
2
3
Overall Odds of this happening.......40%........48.8%.....10.4%....0.8%...100%
White (-2s / proc)...............459.........662..........1192......1987....646 Green (-3s / proc)...............459.........851..........1987......1987....821 Blue PWOs (-4s / proc)........459.........1192........1987......1987....988 Purple PWOs (-5s / proc).....459.........1987........1987......1987....1375
QUANTUM MK XII (Base 3313 damage, 8.5s reload)
# Procs
0
1
2
3
Overall Odds of this happening.......40%........48.8%.....10.4%....0.8%...100%
White (-2s / proc)...............390.........510..........736.......1325....492 Green (-3s / proc)...............390.........602..........1325......2209....605 Blue PWOs (-4s / proc)........390.........736........2209......2209....763 Purple PWOs (-5s / proc).....390.........947.........2209......2209....865
(NOTE: "Overall" above is the sum of all (DPS * frequency) for each level of PWO quality.)
Basically, with 3 White PWO's, Photons would have a higher DPS if all 3 proc'd with every shot. Green PWO's? Photons have a higher DPS 99% of the time. Blue PWO's and Photons have a higher DPS 89% of the time. Even using Purple PWO's, Photons still do better 89% of the time.
Again, that's just the raw numbers as near as I can tell with nothing but PWO's at work.
PWO's in a perfect world...*cough*...so to speak. :P
I run a Guramba w/ 2 (front facing) Quantums, 2 Quantum consoles, and 3 Purples PWOs. I've swapped off and tried a photon setup under the same circumstances. The Quantums generally perform better because they hit harder w/ Torp Spread & High Yield, which makes up a significant portion of your damage. The "white" damage is generally pretty similar, Photon damage is a little more stable and less prone to variance, while Quantum damage has a higher potential overall but can dip low on particularly unlucky runs. Both options are actually very stable, and the variance of total damage is only a 3-4% spread at most.
The real question is would the added damage (from using Photon consoles) on the Photon Point Defense system be enough to outweigh the advantages of Quantum's hitting harder w/ BO abilities. I tend to think that would be highly dependent on how opportune you are with it, but I suspect the Quantums would win out the majority of the time simply because of the 3 minute cool down on that console.
Without the Photon Point Defense system, Quantums definitely come out ahead though... assuming you have 3 Purple PWOs and are using a couple Torpedo BO abilities.
But, to be perfectly honest.. both options are extremely viable and the total damage difference is not going to be significant enough that it's going to matter in most scenarios (most likey a few hundred DPS). If I were going to run a Armitage, I'd probably go with Photons just because it's a significantly cheaper setup.
My opinion is thus, with the new fleet instances, your having alot of very target rich environments unlike borg stf which provided very few (last spawn on last gate, or nano spawn in ise, etc). Thus when you fire your PPDS, your launching ALOT of photons. 6 per target, and i've seen up to 15 targets in view. That's 90 photon torpedos. Add in a torpedo spread 3 at the same time and you've easily got over 100 birds in the air. All increased by your photon console. Now you could run quantums, have a small piece of those birds boosted, and IMO loose damage. xantris is right in that you have to use your console at the right time.
Comments
If I were you I would use DCs and Tetryon, not DHCs. More procs of shield stripping means torps land on hull more.
As a note, I believe that using photons because of the console and the synergy with damage buffs is a mistake. Firstly, as someone else pointed out, you will still do more dmg with quantums even without buffing the console (3 min cooldown, doesn't add much). Secondly, the console is kinda junk, and I would advise using an extra field console (science) or neutronium (engineer) instead. You will live longer, and thus do more DPS
Food for thought.
True. I posted my initial reaction. I didn't have time to monkey with a parser last night. It will probably be a week before I can. What I'm getting at is that, based on limited results, it's worth looking into. I thought I'd done it to death and deleted the parser I was using. But, I may play with it a little.
His question was exploring a 3 Torp Launcher boat, but yes, his data shows that at 2 launchers, Quantums perform better. This is all rough math, so I apologize if I made any poor assumptions / errors
I believe the two above lines are what you are referring too. Exploring which is greater:
111 Photons vs. 104 Quantums
Taking a quick look at the STOWiki shows that a common MKII Quantum does 3313 damage per volley, where as a Photon does 2980.
104 Quantums, all hitting hull would be 344,552
111 Photons, all hitting hull would be 330,780
Based on this, for 2 launchers, with 2 Doffs, Quantums are ahead of the Photons by ~4.2%.
Now, if we look at 3 Torps w/ 2 DOffs:
147 Photons vs. 131 Quantums
131 Quantums, all hitting hull would be 434,003
147 Photons, all hitting hull would be 438,060
Photons are now ahead of Quantums by a marginal ~1%.
The way I read the data is when you get unlucky and fail to hit the max fire rate Quantums are within 1% of Photons. But when the triggers work and you hit the cap Quantums overtake Photons. If you look at Rapid fire Transphasic which are effectively Quantums being 8sec torpedoes you see they hit the cap almost. That means Quantums can hit that cap as well just not every single time with blue doffs.
So Quantums are within Photons damage range but often Quantums overtake photons in DPS. More reason to go with Quantums was thats tested with blue Doffs. One would expect with purple Doffs Quantums would more often than not hit the cap and be ahead of Photons which have no room for faster fireing.
The above is assuming 111 torpedoes is about the cap for 2 launchers, 148 is about the cap for 3 launchers. I know from experience the 4th launcher pretty much always fails to fires to when capped out on speed. (EDIT2: You can only fire 1 torpedo every 2 seconds so 147 is the cap over 300seconds.)
EDIT; To clarify it looks like with looks like 3 Photons launchers shoot 147 torpedoes. Quantum will shoot somewhere around 131 to 147 torpedoes depending on chance triggers. But if you upgrade fully to purple DOffs you should pretty much see Quantum always at the cap at 147.
Now here's my question:
Cygone's build is designed around shield stripping, with the goal of getting to the bare hull faster - and to that effect he is limited to 2 PWOs to keep the rest of the build functioning.
That build is very specifically a Sci ship - so how can we make this passable/viable for an STF focused escort?
2x DCs and 3xTurrets, tetryon, put skill points into flow capacitors, use the armitage and use advanced delta flyers, run 2x quantums with 3 purple doffs.
Yes the defense console is increased/decreased based on both you skill points into projectiles as well as your consoles.
It's not much of a torpedo boat at that point, and I'm not convinced the resulting DPS would:
A) Be significantly improved vs. Typical DHCx4 or DHCx3 +1 Torp build.
I tried exactly what you describe once before and the log parsings did not show anything impressive.
I tried to imagine a way to move up to a 3rd torp to see if that would tip the scale, but I see no viable way to do that in an escort as you have very limited shield stripping capability.
Most targets are without shields in STFs. [borg] on torpedoes do 1000 damage per shot to hull as well as normal damage. With the upcoming changes a Transphasic torpedo with [borg] will be doing over 3000 damage per shot with shields up and 4000+ with shields down (half that currently). With a max fire rate and the upcomeing changes thats 1500dps against shields without Torpedo spread or high yield and no damage loss for range or low energy.
It seems to me [borg] Transphasic or [borg] Quantums are a must for STF runs even if its just a single launcher with torpedo spread for all those unshielded targets. Personally I just use Transphasic and dont care about shields but for most people I think Quantums are best.
Well, two points, first if you start from the assumption that you WANT a torp boat, if you go up to 3 torps, you don't have enough shield stripping power, which makes your torpedo boat an ineffective torpedo boat. As I see it, Torpedo Boat here is defined as the most effective build incorporating the most usage of torpedoes. That means 2x torps and 3x PWO doffs, IMO. No other build is going to be as effective that builds around torpedoes (and I would say devoting 2 of your 4 forward slots to torps is a pretty substantial commitment!).
If you just want what will probably do the most DPS, you want 4xDHCs, period. But that isn't what this is about. I would also add that in certain STFs, the torp boat may pull ahead because of the sheer number of unshielded things to kill, i.e. the cure or maybe KA. When you are churning out quantums 1 every second with HYTs added in, I have to think you crank out more damage than the DHCs. Maybe it isn't greater, but at least it is competitive.
But yeah, moral of the story is, if you want the straught up most reliable DPS out there, the answer is 4xDHCs and 3x Turrets.
My question to you is: On the armitage, with an all cannon build, what do you use the 3rd ensign tac slot for? Hmmmmmaaaaaah? Riddle me THAT. No really, I want to know wtf to do with it.
I think that question is a lot more common than with just the Armitage. :P
(Also, I have no answer for you. I'm still kinda trying to figure it out on two of my escorts, and I don't even have the Armitage yet).
-J
If all you care about is maxxing out your DPS score in a parser then that is fairly accurate.
If you actually want to deal with the targets that do have shields, i.e. most of the ones that are not immobile, borderline defenseless objects - then you do in fact have to deal with shields.
Negh'var, Raptors, all Elite Cubes, Donatra, all Spheres (especially the mass of spheres in ISE).
Being able to cut through shields will always be important vs. those targets and they are generally the targets that pose a threat to players.
I'm willing to wait and see on transphasics.
I'm not disagreeing with one launcher, I'm not convinced a true "torpedo" Escort with 3 torpedo launchers is all that great of an idea.
That's a pretty specific definition.
What you go on to describe is a ship that has 2 torpedo launchers out of an available 7 weapon slots. So to me you have more torpedos than usual, but I'm not seeing it as a full torpedo build like Cygone's which is completely centered around Torpedos for the primary DPS contribution.
Photons work better for engs and scis.
IDK. I'm an Engineer and quantums work great for me. Although tacs do have some damage abilities I'm a little envious of.
Assuming...
...3 PWO's of the same quality procing 20% of the time each;
...that their effects stack when more than one procs;
...that the RoF of a weapon can't drop below 1.5s;
...that there's nothing else at play to affect DPS...
...Photon vs. Quantum DPS seems to look something like this:
PHOTON MK XII (Base 2980 damage, 6.5s reload)
# Procs
0
1
2
3
Overall
Odds of this happening.......40%........48.8%.....10.4%....0.8%...100%
White (-2s / proc)...............459.........662..........1192......1987....646
Green (-3s / proc)...............459.........851..........1987......1987....821
Blue PWOs (-4s / proc)........459.........1192........1987......1987....988
Purple PWOs (-5s / proc).....459.........1987........1987......1987....1375
QUANTUM MK XII (Base 3313 damage, 8.5s reload)
# Procs
0
1
2
3
Overall
Odds of this happening.......40%........48.8%.....10.4%....0.8%...100%
White (-2s / proc)...............390.........510..........736.......1325....492
Green (-3s / proc)...............390.........602..........1325......2209....605
Blue PWOs (-4s / proc)........390.........736........2209......2209....763
Purple PWOs (-5s / proc).....390.........947.........2209......2209....865
(NOTE: "Overall" above is the sum of all (DPS * frequency) for each level of PWO quality.)
Basically, with 3 White PWO's, Photons would have a higher DPS if all 3 proc'd with every shot. Green PWO's? Photons have a higher DPS 99% of the time. Blue PWO's and Photons have a higher DPS 89% of the time. Even using Purple PWO's, Photons still do better 89% of the time.
Again, that's just the raw numbers as near as I can tell with nothing but PWO's at work.
PWO's in a perfect world...*cough*...so to speak. :P
The real question is would the added damage (from using Photon consoles) on the Photon Point Defense system be enough to outweigh the advantages of Quantum's hitting harder w/ BO abilities. I tend to think that would be highly dependent on how opportune you are with it, but I suspect the Quantums would win out the majority of the time simply because of the 3 minute cool down on that console.
Without the Photon Point Defense system, Quantums definitely come out ahead though... assuming you have 3 Purple PWOs and are using a couple Torpedo BO abilities.
But, to be perfectly honest.. both options are extremely viable and the total damage difference is not going to be significant enough that it's going to matter in most scenarios (most likey a few hundred DPS). If I were going to run a Armitage, I'd probably go with Photons just because it's a significantly cheaper setup.