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Did the Borg attack V'ger?
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After reading the various theories about V'ger being made by the Borg, etc., I remembered something from the Star Trek: The Motion Picture novel.
Not long after it left the machine planet, V'ger was attacked by a 'Life Form' as it travelled through a solar system. It barely survived, but returned and patterned the entire planet that the 'Life Form' came from, except for the carbon units on it.
Could the machine planet in V'ger's memory actually be the Borg homeworld after it was patterned?
Also the interior of V'ger is different in style from the exterior. Maybe it built itself a giant version of the Borg command ship, and then made its way through our galaxy.
If anyone wishes, I can post the relevant section from the novel. I do know it's not canon, but it does provide one possible connection between V'ger and the Borg.
Not long after it left the machine planet, V'ger was attacked by a 'Life Form' as it travelled through a solar system. It barely survived, but returned and patterned the entire planet that the 'Life Form' came from, except for the carbon units on it.
Could the machine planet in V'ger's memory actually be the Borg homeworld after it was patterned?
Also the interior of V'ger is different in style from the exterior. Maybe it built itself a giant version of the Borg command ship, and then made its way through our galaxy.
If anyone wishes, I can post the relevant section from the novel. I do know it's not canon, but it does provide one possible connection between V'ger and the Borg.
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"Yes, Captain. We witnessed a birth."
I think we take the origin of V'Ger at face value. It reached a machine planet which build the ship to get it back to earth so Voyager can complete its mission. With its main program of collecting knowledge V'Ger took that to extremes by patterning all life and assimilating its knowledge.
When it wanted to join with the creator and merged with Decker, that was the creation of the Borg. The Voyager program continued its prime directive of collecting knowledge, and essentially, translated that into assimilated life forms go grow the collective.
Thats what I think happpened. I would assume the Borg then used the V'Ger ship as a template for its construction of command ships.
I think the machine planet is an entirely different species than the borg.
I LOVE, however, that it turns out, WE created the Borg through Voyager.
Ironic, isn't it. Well it seems more likely that the ST: Legacy explaination. DStahl did say he wanted to get V'ger into the game one day.
I wonder of Cryptic will ever give us a proper explaination for the borg command ships...
Yes they did, I think he mentions they were a "minor pain" back then or something.
Don't forget that TNG episode where Guinan mentions that they have been developing for hundreds or thousands of centuries (not years) so they sound as though they are an ancient race, much more ancient then the voyager probe.
The Borg, according to what was mentioned on Voyager, have existed for well over eight hundred years. It is more likely that the Borg have recently found and assimilated the machine planet that helped build V'Ger. This could explain the Borg's resurgence of late.
Probably entered a time warp and was thrown into the distant Delta Quadrant
Probe somehow came across an advance sentient robotic lifefrom which transformed the probe in an effort to understand it, the result was V'ger.
V'Ger in tern would create the borg to help itself understand the strange, organic and complex universe it now lived in, thus the borg were simply a tool to gather information for V'ger.
Think that was from one of the Trek games, not sure which one.......
The Battlestar Galactica Quote works well:
"Humanitys Children Are Returning Home "
Niether is related in any way. Escpecially when you consider the fact that the borg was on one side of the universe and V-ger came from beyond the side of where the Klingons part of the universe. As we say opposite sides of the federation's side of the universe. Meaning there is no way either could have something to do with each other.
the video game star trek legacy gives a good history on v'ger and how the borg came to be.
it really all depends.....
But hasn't it already been established that the Borg had existed for centuries or millennia before Q "introduced" them to the Federation?
In "Q Who", Guinan states that the Borg had been developing for "thousands of centuries". I also recall a Vaadwaur character in Voyager stating that the Borg existed before his people were put into suspension over 800 years previous.
So if the Borg existed 800+ years prior to the Late TNG era, how could they possibly have been created by a probe that hadn't even left our solar system as of the early 21st century?
For V'Ger to have created the Borg, we would've had to launch Voyager about the same time Columbus was discovering the Western hemisphere. Or according to Guinan, about the time the first "modern" humans were taking their first steps in Africa..
Just sayin'... It was good enough for Capt. Kirk. :cool:
I am not privvy to Mr Genes thoughts on Star Trek and the future of Decker and Ilea but this stuff does not tie in well together,
Because this is an alternate universe I think they can do this...but in the spirit of CANON this is not true.
There was a merge of technology and the flesh with the borg......Vger was never part flesh part machine.
Why would the BORG not assimilate voyager.....? yes it is a weak technology source not worthy of assimilation.......then why would they fix it and make it better and send it on its way.....
It does not jive with me.
Also...Vger passed through a black hole.......we all know what happens when one passes through a black hole......pulled apart atom by atom......So in my mind it could have never passed through a black hole.........I do love how the a voyager like space probe came across a klingon.........space junk afterwards...BUT the prbe also made a sound as it died a little squeel (did anyone notice?).......for it to survive the rigors of deep space and klingons is stretching the truth too...lots micro meteors gravity from suns...planets and road hazzards while moseying on down the space highway.
i know this is a real world application to a science fiction tv show.....but ST is known for being slightly paralell with our real world.
The Borg at this time probably only had a few colonies near to their homeworld. When V'gr began it's homeward journey, it moves through the Borg solar system and is attacked. V'ger respomds by taking the homeworld.
Perhaps it would be easier just to provide the part from the book.
The great machine had begun its long journey on the far side of the galaxy from here. Its consciousness was dim then. Its knowledge and its power had been far less than now. It was not long after this beginning that a small life form had almost ended Vejurs journey. It had been scarcely four times larger than this one which calls itself Enterprise, and had attacked suddenly as Vejur passed near a small solar system. Somehow Vejur had survived and repaired its wounds and the need to survive had forced it into a first flicker of conscious reasoning. It had realized that it would be guilty of disobeying the Creators commands if it allowed itself to be destroyed during the journey ahead. It knew therefore, that it must draw upon the knowledge it had so far gathered and use it to begin giving itself more strength to defend itself.
Vejur had returned to the planet of its attacker and patterned it completely. This information would replace what had been lost during the attack and would make it possible for Vejur to continue its journey and its task of collecting knowledge along the way. Vejur omitted not a fragment of what composed that world, except of a kind of carbon unit which existed there, but these had ceased functioning by the time Vejur noticed their existence.
Novel. Star Trek The Motion Picture.
The survivng Borg in the system would have seen V'ger essentially 'assimilate' their homeworld and improved itself into the shape that took the long voyage back to its crator. The Borg then may have took that as the way to improve themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anMOQ3vTy9k
Borg assimilate species, their technology and their cultures for the sake of achieving perfection.
Linking the two and calling it the same is a pretty big leap.
I'm just suggesting that the Borg essentially kept to themselves until V'ger turned up. V'ger's actions may have changed the Borg's outlook.
V'ger patterns the Borg homeworld, uses the data for it's own purposes, and goes on its merry way. It maybe even gives itself a new outer hull. The location of Voyager 6 in V'ger is a very different design from the outside. V'ger has so much energy that it could just create whatever materials it needed.
They surviving Borg watch as their homeworld disappears and then sees V'ger make itself more powerful. They then decide that this is the way to 'improve' themselves. They have no ability to patterned items into data, and then make use of the data, so they assimilate instead. Now, they start to assimilate individuals and ships and their knowledge grows.
However, until something 'official' comes out, we won't know. It would be ironic though, if humanity was the cause of the Borg spreading throughout the galaxy.
But one creating the other, no. Limited technology on one side, and a psychological aversion on the other.
This is Star Trek we are talking about. Time travel is common. Who's to say where or when V'ger ended up after exiting that black hole. It's a well known fact that Gene joked that the machine planet seen by Spock might have been the Borg homeworld.
I agree. And lets not forget that the Borg weren't even a concept drawing when TMP came out, every speculation of how these two work together are retcons. And I hate retcons
ST:TMP mentions "The far side of the galaxy" so, unless Klingon space has suddenly shifted to Coreward of the Federation, V'ger would not have passed through Klingon space if it was on a direct journey to Earth.
If V'ger went around the galaxy, collecting data, it would have saved our part until last, then it would have gone on a heading to Earth.
Then if it had finished on the other side of the Klingon Empire, it would have just gone straight through their territory, patterning ships as it went along.
V'ger could have spent 250 years on its journey, so I think that it would not have taken the direct route to Earth.
At the time of The Motion Picture, there was nothing mentioned about races on the far side of the galaxy.
The problem with the newer TV series is that there are massive groups in the Gamma and Delta Quadrants, who should have ended up with a visit from V'ger. We now have a situation of shoe-horning V'ger's journey into the newer stories.
In the Tos Episode "Naked Time" (I think) the Enterprise actually leves the edge of the Galaxy, explain how they managed that without going through other Empire territories.
The novel 'Probe' (did Shatner write this one?) dealt with the origins of V'ger and also made the link between it and the Borg..... horribly tenuous and utterly unnecessary and ****ed all over the original storyline... So as far as I'm concerned V'ger has nothing to do with the Borg.
The V'ger story was written a long time before the cybernetic Borg were introduced.
The Borg were a then (pre cgi-boom 80's) less expensive alternative for a parasitic insectoid hive-mind species. Remember the scorpion-like parasites taking over Starfleet officers? This was supposed to be the prelude to what has been changed to be the Borg.
The whole Parasite storyline was subtly built up left and right across the season and then abandoned because accounting hold their breath in view of the costs at that time to create "full-body-non-humanoid-aliens" on TV.
So, canon-wise there was no connection between the two.
I too was a long time a big fan of the V'ger-Borg-Theory. But retconning something would be tricky given the background the Borg were given in VOY and already in TNG. So I'd rather continue to explore the neck-bug-storyline.
[btw: Was there a difference in the message being sent at the end of the episode? A difference from the original US to the dubbed German version i mean? I kind of remember Data saying something about a warning of humanity to the bug-mom?]
And: Given the load of machine/android/robot encounters in TOS, there are more then enough alternatives to choose from.
One of the episodes they had a huge battle and were baddly damaged, and needed repairs a passing cargo ship sent them to an Unmaned station. this station when they arrived had a dock to small, posion gass for air and they were about to leave.
But as they turned around the station ADAPTED for them. changing the lifesupport for humans, ASSIMULATING the language from the ships computers, And then changed the size of the dock to fit the NX-Enterprise.
when they got on it wanted 3 things, the one they decided on was warp fluid, and once the choice was made the Auto dock took the fluid off the ship.
during the course of the repairs a consle short circited killing the head enginer, with BaldBlad radiation or something
after getting ready to leave the CMO noticed that some sort of creature in the Cheif enginer's body was also dead but was well known for eating BladBlad radation they damaged their ship and went back
What they found after practicly tearing the dock apart were HUNDREDS of crew members from all races hooked up with a NUREL INTERFACE and when they rescued the Cheif the station attacked
When they destroyed it they headed back to starfleet
Cue cutaway shot of the station repairing itself,
I do belive this episode was a protoborg style origin story
link here http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Dead_Stop_(episode)
Could the Borg helped V'Ger yes but V'Ger could not have created the Borg.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Talk:V'Ger