A great listen to but can't remember if this was mentioned at all. So much information there :-)
Quick question
How do the fleet ships impact those who have been fortunate/lucky enough to acquire a lock box ship ; jem hadar/d'kora/cardasian ship. Fleet ships all get a boost; armor and shields and extra console slot. Will there be something available to acquire an upgraded version or are these going to be upgraded at a later date or do these become esentially useless as they will not be able to be used in end game content for the lack of stats.
I have the D'kora and absolutely love it and use it for Elite STF's. With the content becoming harder as stated in the interview I wander if getting this ship was a waste of my money.
You want no T1 ships...ok...but at least put the TMP connie that's T2 up. Its got the same components as the stargazer, and that's T-5. Absolutely nonsense.
You're confused. The Stargazer class is a modern ship, the one you're thinking of is the Constellation class, which is not in game at all.
You're confused. The Stargazer class is a modern ship, the one you're thinking of is the Constellation class, which is not in game at all.
Where and when in STO is this Constellation Class going to show up?
The PodCast was quite a nice decent info session, very positive remarks from Al about the various acknowledged controversies surrounding the methods of making money through STO F2P.
Nice to look forward to looking forward to things that should actually move this game forward properly. Especially the nod to the significance of player retention in the form of the Fleets of gamers who help each other out etc with the end game significance of Star Bases and Fleet Holdings.
I really do not like the idea that the fleet ships will be better then the Cstore ships minus their specific console. Most of the time their consoles are a gimmick you do not use very often so in essence Cryptic is punishing fans that are not in a fleet for buying something using real money by making the paid versions the inferior ones for these ships. Maybe Cryptic is really just trying to not make any more money in this game as whoever thought this was a sound business practice must have got their degree from DeVry.
I have bought two Fed and two KDF Tier 5 ships so far and if they do not do some tweaking to this plan, I doubt I will be buying any more since I am paying for lesser versions of these ships and being punished since I am a player that likes teaming with friends to play STFs and the team missions.
I agree with you Darknessmuta up an to a point quite frankly if there is no advantage to grinding for the fleet ships what exactly would be the point. Honestly I'm not sure we are getting all the relevant information yet.
But I'll agree if it is true it does seem like it's going to give large fleets an advantage over smaller fleets or individuals.
Since I am talking about the Tier 5 ships only (as I like the idea of making the lower tier ships playable as a Tier 5 version at end game so those additions are welcome), the Fleet versions should offer different BOFF layouts and an extra console slot so they are variants, they should not get all these other extras additions like more hull and shield strength plus some other passive ability too because Al said the fleets are also going to be getting the overpowered consoles that are ultraviolet so not only are they getting better ships, they get a better console class too that will make the ships even more powerful.
Many of the ships are already at the Ship Vendors on Tribble so you can see all their stats and costs so unless they plan to buff some of the Cstore ships to be equal to these fleet versions, Cryptic are going to lose a lot more paying customers when Season 6 rolls around once they see their expensive ships they paid lots of money for become the weaker class of ship.
I totally agree Darknessmuta, this more than anything has me really upset. It's not like a free ship you buy with dilithium or get with a promotion, these are ships we bought with real money, ships we bought to also help support the game. It's like we are being punished for helping PWE/Cryptic. Not a smart move, a disaster to be more honest.
Support the Game by Supporting the KDF, equality and uniqueness for all factions!
The advantages and disadvantages of Fleet ships are still pretty unknown so I think before claiming disaster, I do think the facts should be thought of.
Especially considering that, this will take at least 7 months of intense grind and possibly money, so it being slightly better than the ones that can be instantly bought may be intentional for those who want to work vs purchase.
IE Pay ships are the alternative to the grind ships.
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I'm completely pissed off that the fleet ships are better than the c-store versions, especially since for a lot of them are the exact same ships. Just getting a gimmicky console with a long timer and a skin isn't worth the $25, if you could get one with better stats and an extra console slot by grinding. Seriously, what the Hell were they thinking?
I'm completely pissed off that the fleet ships are better than the c-store versions, especially since for a lot of them are the exact same ships. Just getting a gimmicky console with a long timer and a skin isn't worth the $25, if you could get one with better stats and an extra console slot by grinding. Seriously, what the Hell were they thinking?
Well, I think that they did it this way because it satisfies the most people.
Want a better ship than standard with a cool skin & console? $25, have fun!
Want an even better ship without the console & skin? Spend the next year grinding a myriad of currencies & probably spending money while doing tedious grind and maintaining a good relationship with fleetmates and negotiating for one of the ships. Oh, and buy a schematic on the C-Store on top of it.
The problem is that if they did it the other way, the C-Store ships are better, whats the purpose of the crazy hard work? Fleet grinding makes some of the other grinds look easy imo. Sure, the STF is bad for sure, but its about a currency from one event. The fleet one takes tons of currencies and adds time on top of it.
*** I see both sides of the argument, but im simply pointing out why i think they did it this way****
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He did say that there wouldn't be a T-5 Connie (Constitution).
He also said that the reason is still because of CBS and the controversy surrounding it in the forums.
None of the Level One ships will be T-5's... Connie/Miranda/Oberth/NX
But, He also said that All the other lower level ships, will eventually get T-5 versions available in the Fleet Base system.
He didn't say there wouldn't be a T-5 Exeter.
(which would satisfy me if I could also use the Motion Picture skin).
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Well, I hope at least that it frees up new c-store ships to not be at the mercy of the nerf brigade. C-store ships should be compared to these new fleet versions and not the solo ones in terms of balance now IMO.
He did say that there wouldn't be a T-5 Connie (Constitution).
He also said that the reason is still because of CBS and the controversy surrounding it in the forums.
None of the Level One ships will be T-5's... Connie/Miranda/Oberth/NX
But, He also said that All the other lower level ships, will eventually get T-5 versions available in the Fleet Base system.
He didn't say there wouldn't be a T-5 Exeter.
(which would satisfy me if I could also use the Motion Picture skin).
But...em...wha...yeah, no, I'm not missing anything, a T5 Exeter with the TMP Connie skin would be a T5 fecking Connie. There's another reason, incidentally; it makes no sense at all. There HAS to be a point that we acknowledge that this game is set in 2409, and that even the TMP connie is over a century old, and if Cryptic really want to insist that point doesn't exist, then f*** it: I want the next small craft to be a Space Shuttle. Not a Star Trek shuttlecraft, the actual chemical-fueled Space Shuttle that was recently retired. And I want it to be equipped with quad pulse phasers, quantum torpedo launchers, top of the range shields, warp drive - the works. Because if we're totally ignoring even in-universe common sense, why should only T5 connie fans be allowed to demand utterly obsolete ships be put on-par with the latest technology?
We are PWE. Your forums and game accounts will be added to our own. Your community will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
I wonder if there will be any sort of mechanism to limit who can buy what from a project once it completes? Like if 5 guys in a fleet want a Fleet Vorcha, get the fleet commander to queue up the project, then each sink in the resources necessary to get a batch built. Guy #6 sees that the project is ongoing, doesn't contribute anything, but sets his alarm to be there the second the project completes and buy a ship with marks he got from defense missions before one of the project sponsors can log on. One of those initial 5 guys is going to be down a lot of resources and royally ticked, but even if 6 is kicked out he has the ship and 5 doesn't. I can see this kind of BS becoming way too common if there isn't some kind of permissions mechanism.
Ships are bought with fleet credits, not fleet marks. They'd have to have enough fleet credits to do so, and if they didn't contribute to that project, for them to have enough they would have had to contribute a lot to previous projects to get to that point, so I don't see that being an issue.
Besides, if there's not enough ships, they can just run that project again to get more for people to purchase.
I'm completely pissed off that the fleet ships are better than the c-store versions, especially since for a lot of them are the exact same ships. Just getting a gimmicky console with a long timer and a skin isn't worth the $25, if you could get one with better stats and an extra console slot by grinding. Seriously, what the Hell were they thinking?
the ships have been pretty much balanced for ages at tier 5. the flagships and the armitage are probably the first ships to be clearly better than the others and even then that its by a fairly small margin.
on the better fleet ships players will still have to buy the schematic in the c-store for an unknown amount of money, plus a huge amount of grind to get a ship that has slightly better stats yet lacks the extra costume or console.
the cost of schematics could be $20 for all we know. for the sake of $5 dollars being replaced with possible weeks or months of grinding for a ship that has advantages but lacks the extra options of the older c-store ships.
that sounds a fair trade off. lets wait and see what the prices are before panicking.
Fleet Ships are now visible in the Ship Stores on Tribble. And they definitely are better than the C-store ships not only due to the extra console they get, but they also have better HPs and Shields.
The Fleet Heavy Cruiser is equivalent to the Sovereign. The Fleet Olympic is about the same as the DSSV. The Fleet Defiant has 5 Tactical Consoles, while the Fleet Galaxy has 5 Engineering consoles.
Only Fleet ship I didn't like is the Fleet Sovereign, which has more of a BO configuration of the Exclesior with a LTC + LT Tactical and a LT Universal. However there is only an Ensign and Cmdr Engineering slot, which drastically reduces the ship ability to tank. And one of the prime things about the Sovereign people liked is it being a round ship having good offense with defense, along with a pretty good manuverabilty.
What's worse, is that we will be getting a Sovereign Refit in the C-store, why even buy it?
Cryptic really is messing up ships. We pay $20 for these ships and now to be replaced by Fleet Ships, so now we are basically paying $20 for a console. And that is not right. Especially for players who do not want to join a fleet.
40 or so ships which are just ships with a bit of a tweak to stats and bo configs and stuff. Bit of a shame as it does nothing for me because i use a jemhdar ship on my fed and a gurumba on my kdf. If the fleet system doesnt have some sort of booster things for my ships then i do not see myself pursuing any ships from the starbase system at all as i dont fly anything but the bug and the gurumba.
Also Geko says due to the low amount of purchases of kdf ships (your fault crytpic imo for making kdf unavilable till you invest in a fed first) that they wont be making any more cstore ships or if they do it will be one offs like the 1000 day vet ship.
Also he doesnt really seem to care about the tierless warpcore idea that was talked about. He first said nope couldnt do it but then later in the show says they could or something which confused me.
the guramba is not going to become useless at all. it has no console power as its ability is built it, therefore it never sacrifices anything to use its lance or battle mode.
That is not quite true .
The "tanky" advantage of the Oddy is that if you do not equip it with a "special" console , then it has 10 console slots to offer .
The ships Al named/implied (galor , grumba , dreadnought , bug , excelsior) all have 9 consoles and will continue to have 9 consoles , while all the rest (aside from the Oddy/Bort) will get a chance to become 10 console ships .
So in this sense , the 9 console ships that have no Starbase variant will become less "tanky" by default ... -- due to their inability to add one more engineer/sci/tac console like the 10 console ships .
Plus on top of the extra console slot , Al said that the Fleet variants will get a boost in hull + shield hit points , so that's the gravy in top of the 10 console slots .
In short , the ships with the 9 slots and no Fleet variants will be left further behind in PVE , and a lot further behind in PVP .
So how about adding a new equipment slot to all ship puppets, call it Special Equipment or whatever.
For the Galaxy-X and the Garumba it would be the lances of course, this gives you the ability make the Fleet versions of them without giving away the lance as well. It could even have the added benefit of putting different energy type lances in the D-Store for those that would rather do something other than phaser / disruptor. Restrict these lances to the X / Garumba only, and any future ships that you may decide to put a lance on.
For the Excelsior it would be all the transwarp abilities, and since that is a non-combat ability, just go ahead and open that special piece to any ship. The bonus here is it makes buying the Excelsior a little more appealing, for those that want the transwarps but don't necessarily want to use the Excelsior itself.
This would also open up more possibilities for new ships in the future, so instead of *just* consoles, you have a new slot to play with.
Alternatively, you could just restrict the ability to buy Fleet and refit versions to those that have already unlocked the prior version in the C-Store.
So how about adding a new equipment slot to all ship puppets, call it Special Equipment or whatever.
For the Galaxy-X and the Garumba it would be the lances of course, this gives you the ability make the Fleet versions of them without giving away the lance as well. It could even have the added benefit of putting different energy type lances in the D-Store for those that would rather do something other than phaser / disruptor. Restrict these lances to the X / Garumba only, and any future ships that you may decide to put a lance on.
For the Excelsior it would be all the transwarp abilities, and since that is a non-combat ability, just go ahead and open that special piece to any ship. The bonus here is it makes buying the Excelsior a little more appealing, for those that want the transwarps but don't necessarily want to use the Excelsior itself.
This would also open up more possibilities for new ships in the future, so instead of *just* consoles, you have a new slot to play with.
Alternatively, you could just restrict the ability to buy Fleet and refit versions to those that have already unlocked the prior version in the C-Store.
I like this idea (I and others have made basically the same suggestion before). Cryptic is missing a good opportunity to do this since they are expanding upon the ship system currently.
Yup, I've spent a total of slightly over 13,000CP on ships, should've saved my money. 13,000CP for consoles pfff what a rip off, and here I thought the game was picking up until I listened to the audio interview. Who would've thought they could do worse by customers than they already have.
Alternatively, you could just restrict the ability to buy Fleet and refit versions to those that have already unlocked the prior version in the C-Store.
I just suggested this in a new thread as one possible alternative.
Support the Game by Supporting the KDF, equality and uniqueness for all factions!
For the Galaxy-X and the Garumba it would be the lances of course, this gives you the ability make the Fleet versions of them without giving away the lance as well. It could even have the added benefit of putting different energy type lances in the D-Store for those that would rather do something other than phaser / disruptor. Restrict these lances to the X / Garumba only, and any future ships that you may decide to put a lance on
I like this suggestion, I would love to go antiproton with my Guramba but because of the javelin you are locked into disruptor. Great way to add some variety.
As it stands now with no fleet version of the Gurmaba you essentially wasted 2000CP since it will be UP when season 6 gets going and you will have to get a fleet version of another ship to stay competitive.
I want to believe Al when he says he doesnt intend to do evil business practices.
But this Z store ship idealogy is whacked. Al, you do realise that $20-25 is ONE THIRD the price of a new game right? Why are you spitting in the face of your PAYING customers? The refit Sovereign for instance should have it ALL! If Im shelling out that kind of dough, I shouldnt have to grind one extra minute for anything more. With the ability for F2P to earn dil and get Z points, the C store ships have every right to be the top level ships in the game, T6 unto themselves. I should get all the console slots and stats the fleet Sovy has and want for nothing. I dont mind if the fleet version gets the slots and the stats for months of grinding, minus the Z store skin and console, but if Im paying money, why should I grind too? My $25 should grant me diplomatic immunity from my fleetmates so I dont have to engage in the politics of getting the ship I want. Let those who want to pay nothing use the fleet system to keep up.
Oh, and for $25, the Refit Sovy needs two special consoles, along with every other zstore ship since consoles are the only big difference, $25 should give two unique each.
And my dreadnought lance needs a buff. Same cool down time, but I should be able to tear through the shields of a Negvar and 75% of its hull with one beefy burst so it can literally lance through a ship like in All Good Things. And give me an extra console slot. The Dreadnought is not worth the $25 i paid for it.
Stop feeling sorry for the F2p crowd, you made the dil/z store, that was the last nice thing that should have been done for them. Let them grind their fingers off to get close or equal via dil trading. But you cater the game and give the best ships to those actually PAYING the bills for you Al.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Comments
Founder and Current CO of Gamma Strike Force
Player since December 2009
Quick question
How do the fleet ships impact those who have been fortunate/lucky enough to acquire a lock box ship ; jem hadar/d'kora/cardasian ship. Fleet ships all get a boost; armor and shields and extra console slot. Will there be something available to acquire an upgraded version or are these going to be upgraded at a later date or do these become esentially useless as they will not be able to be used in end game content for the lack of stats.
I have the D'kora and absolutely love it and use it for Elite STF's. With the content becoming harder as stated in the interview I wander if getting this ship was a waste of my money.
Playing STO since Beta
Leader of S-P-Q-R
You're confused. The Stargazer class is a modern ship, the one you're thinking of is the Constellation class, which is not in game at all.
Where and when in STO is this Constellation Class going to show up?
The PodCast was quite a nice decent info session, very positive remarks from Al about the various acknowledged controversies surrounding the methods of making money through STO F2P.
Nice to look forward to looking forward to things that should actually move this game forward properly. Especially the nod to the significance of player retention in the form of the Fleets of gamers who help each other out etc with the end game significance of Star Bases and Fleet Holdings.
I have bought two Fed and two KDF Tier 5 ships so far and if they do not do some tweaking to this plan, I doubt I will be buying any more since I am paying for lesser versions of these ships and being punished since I am a player that likes teaming with friends to play STFs and the team missions.
But I'll agree if it is true it does seem like it's going to give large fleets an advantage over smaller fleets or individuals.
My new sig till Cryptic fixes it....
Many of the ships are already at the Ship Vendors on Tribble so you can see all their stats and costs so unless they plan to buff some of the Cstore ships to be equal to these fleet versions, Cryptic are going to lose a lot more paying customers when Season 6 rolls around once they see their expensive ships they paid lots of money for become the weaker class of ship.
Especially considering that, this will take at least 7 months of intense grind and possibly money, so it being slightly better than the ones that can be instantly bought may be intentional for those who want to work vs purchase.
IE Pay ships are the alternative to the grind ships.
Well, I think that they did it this way because it satisfies the most people.
Want a better ship than standard with a cool skin & console? $25, have fun!
Want an even better ship without the console & skin? Spend the next year grinding a myriad of currencies & probably spending money while doing tedious grind and maintaining a good relationship with fleetmates and negotiating for one of the ships. Oh, and buy a schematic on the C-Store on top of it.
The problem is that if they did it the other way, the C-Store ships are better, whats the purpose of the crazy hard work? Fleet grinding makes some of the other grinds look easy imo. Sure, the STF is bad for sure, but its about a currency from one event. The fleet one takes tons of currencies and adds time on top of it.
*** I see both sides of the argument, but im simply pointing out why i think they did it this way****
He also said that the reason is still because of CBS and the controversy surrounding it in the forums.
None of the Level One ships will be T-5's... Connie/Miranda/Oberth/NX
But, He also said that All the other lower level ships, will eventually get T-5 versions available in the Fleet Base system.
He didn't say there wouldn't be a T-5 Exeter.
(which would satisfy me if I could also use the Motion Picture skin).
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
But...em...wha...yeah, no, I'm not missing anything, a T5 Exeter with the TMP Connie skin would be a T5 fecking Connie. There's another reason, incidentally; it makes no sense at all. There HAS to be a point that we acknowledge that this game is set in 2409, and that even the TMP connie is over a century old, and if Cryptic really want to insist that point doesn't exist, then f*** it: I want the next small craft to be a Space Shuttle. Not a Star Trek shuttlecraft, the actual chemical-fueled Space Shuttle that was recently retired. And I want it to be equipped with quad pulse phasers, quantum torpedo launchers, top of the range shields, warp drive - the works. Because if we're totally ignoring even in-universe common sense, why should only T5 connie fans be allowed to demand utterly obsolete ships be put on-par with the latest technology?
We are PWE. Your forums and game accounts will be added to our own. Your community will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
Ships are bought with fleet credits, not fleet marks. They'd have to have enough fleet credits to do so, and if they didn't contribute to that project, for them to have enough they would have had to contribute a lot to previous projects to get to that point, so I don't see that being an issue.
Besides, if there's not enough ships, they can just run that project again to get more for people to purchase.
the ships have been pretty much balanced for ages at tier 5. the flagships and the armitage are probably the first ships to be clearly better than the others and even then that its by a fairly small margin.
on the better fleet ships players will still have to buy the schematic in the c-store for an unknown amount of money, plus a huge amount of grind to get a ship that has slightly better stats yet lacks the extra costume or console.
the cost of schematics could be $20 for all we know. for the sake of $5 dollars being replaced with possible weeks or months of grinding for a ship that has advantages but lacks the extra options of the older c-store ships.
that sounds a fair trade off. lets wait and see what the prices are before panicking.
The Fleet Heavy Cruiser is equivalent to the Sovereign. The Fleet Olympic is about the same as the DSSV. The Fleet Defiant has 5 Tactical Consoles, while the Fleet Galaxy has 5 Engineering consoles.
Only Fleet ship I didn't like is the Fleet Sovereign, which has more of a BO configuration of the Exclesior with a LTC + LT Tactical and a LT Universal. However there is only an Ensign and Cmdr Engineering slot, which drastically reduces the ship ability to tank. And one of the prime things about the Sovereign people liked is it being a round ship having good offense with defense, along with a pretty good manuverabilty.
What's worse, is that we will be getting a Sovereign Refit in the C-store, why even buy it?
Cryptic really is messing up ships. We pay $20 for these ships and now to be replaced by Fleet Ships, so now we are basically paying $20 for a console. And that is not right. Especially for players who do not want to join a fleet.
Also Geko says due to the low amount of purchases of kdf ships (your fault crytpic imo for making kdf unavilable till you invest in a fed first) that they wont be making any more cstore ships or if they do it will be one offs like the 1000 day vet ship.
Also he doesnt really seem to care about the tierless warpcore idea that was talked about. He first said nope couldnt do it but then later in the show says they could or something which confused me.
That is not quite true .
The "tanky" advantage of the Oddy is that if you do not equip it with a "special" console , then it has 10 console slots to offer .
The ships Al named/implied (galor , grumba , dreadnought , bug , excelsior) all have 9 consoles and will continue to have 9 consoles , while all the rest (aside from the Oddy/Bort) will get a chance to become 10 console ships .
So in this sense , the 9 console ships that have no Starbase variant will become less "tanky" by default ... -- due to their inability to add one more engineer/sci/tac console like the 10 console ships .
Plus on top of the extra console slot , Al said that the Fleet variants will get a boost in hull + shield hit points , so that's the gravy in top of the 10 console slots .
In short , the ships with the 9 slots and no Fleet variants will be left further behind in PVE , and a lot further behind in PVP .
For the Galaxy-X and the Garumba it would be the lances of course, this gives you the ability make the Fleet versions of them without giving away the lance as well. It could even have the added benefit of putting different energy type lances in the D-Store for those that would rather do something other than phaser / disruptor. Restrict these lances to the X / Garumba only, and any future ships that you may decide to put a lance on.
For the Excelsior it would be all the transwarp abilities, and since that is a non-combat ability, just go ahead and open that special piece to any ship. The bonus here is it makes buying the Excelsior a little more appealing, for those that want the transwarps but don't necessarily want to use the Excelsior itself.
This would also open up more possibilities for new ships in the future, so instead of *just* consoles, you have a new slot to play with.
Alternatively, you could just restrict the ability to buy Fleet and refit versions to those that have already unlocked the prior version in the C-Store.
I like this idea (I and others have made basically the same suggestion before). Cryptic is missing a good opportunity to do this since they are expanding upon the ship system currently.
I just suggested this in a new thread as one possible alternative.
I like this suggestion, I would love to go antiproton with my Guramba but because of the javelin you are locked into disruptor. Great way to add some variety.
As it stands now with no fleet version of the Gurmaba you essentially wasted 2000CP since it will be UP when season 6 gets going and you will have to get a fleet version of another ship to stay competitive.
But this Z store ship idealogy is whacked. Al, you do realise that $20-25 is ONE THIRD the price of a new game right? Why are you spitting in the face of your PAYING customers? The refit Sovereign for instance should have it ALL! If Im shelling out that kind of dough, I shouldnt have to grind one extra minute for anything more. With the ability for F2P to earn dil and get Z points, the C store ships have every right to be the top level ships in the game, T6 unto themselves. I should get all the console slots and stats the fleet Sovy has and want for nothing. I dont mind if the fleet version gets the slots and the stats for months of grinding, minus the Z store skin and console, but if Im paying money, why should I grind too? My $25 should grant me diplomatic immunity from my fleetmates so I dont have to engage in the politics of getting the ship I want. Let those who want to pay nothing use the fleet system to keep up.
Oh, and for $25, the Refit Sovy needs two special consoles, along with every other zstore ship since consoles are the only big difference, $25 should give two unique each.
And my dreadnought lance needs a buff. Same cool down time, but I should be able to tear through the shields of a Negvar and 75% of its hull with one beefy burst so it can literally lance through a ship like in All Good Things. And give me an extra console slot. The Dreadnought is not worth the $25 i paid for it.
Stop feeling sorry for the F2p crowd, you made the dil/z store, that was the last nice thing that should have been done for them. Let them grind their fingers off to get close or equal via dil trading. But you cater the game and give the best ships to those actually PAYING the bills for you Al.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader