well it is 50 bucks for the whole set. pretty crazy money for a free to play game. this is like eve's monaclegate. cept they are giving you things you can actually use.
How about just giving the Sci ships a further bonus to their shield bonuses, perhaps an additional 0.1 modifier to make them really resilient instead of SA. Not too overpowered, but still fits with the design/
Or how about they learn to do itemization properly, don't differentiate based on console slots, don't give any variant a freebie, and do something different that is interesting but not overpowered instead?
We've already gone over differentiating based on the Lt Cmdr. slot, that's just obvious.
What's less obvious is the extra console slot. It's an obvious imbalance. It's possible that this is just Cryptic sliding further down the slippery slope of selling power, but it's just as plausible that the only reason the extra console slot exists is to make it easier to slot all three consoles. But there is a far better, and no offense to Cryptic, but also pretty darn obvious solution: Just make the set bonus larger to offset the loss of regular consoles. You still encourage people to buy all three variants to move their interchangeable consoles around without introducing an obvious imbalance.
im with you on all that, i just posted that to try to blunt the insanity with something less insane. i think all these ability consoles should be devices anyway so it wont need 10 consoles. will proboly need more device slots though. see this post earlier in the thread-
instead of SA, give the sci version the 4 built in target subsystem abilities science has, im guessing the devs intend for it to have something from science ships, let it be that
This idea could certainly work, although I think someone mentioned earlier in this thread about reducing sensor analysis by about 50% when applied to the Odyssey...so instead of stacking ten times, it would only stack five.
This would potentially put it more in line with the damage production potential of say, the Bortas variants (though the tactical variant of the Bortas would still have it beat by about 1% at its new max analysis, not accounting for weapons power). Since this is intended to be a +1 ship after all, I don't see that as being too far out of line.
As it is, 10 sensor analysis on a cruiser is clearly better than anything else currently in the game, imho. I had the time to do some quick pve on tribble with the science variant, and I was clearing things in about half the time it took me with my Galaxy-X. That just isn't right...
First, I need to yell at you and question your dedication to STO, err, wait, my bad, you said NOT to do that.
Seriously, I have to say this, I hope these are not too much for all three because I need them all.
1) I did not STF or PvP in any of the following testing, so the conclusions are skewed against such. Also was all done solo, so skewed for that too.
2) The Aquarius made a noticeable difference in combat, most targets went down twice as fast (or faster) than if I had fought them without it. While docked, the Aqua used the ships FX, when it separates, it loses all parent ship FX such as the Reman Shield. Aqua is doing Disruptor damage with its Point Defense System (and is noticeable thanks to its green fx).
3) The saucer seems to be a less active participant in combat when compared to Aquarius (and very needy, it is bumping you all the time if you stop moving). The boosts it gives to your ship make up for its lack of being little more than a floating health pool that sometimes fires (and it did some kind of sensor scramble ability one time). It too loses all parent FX when it separates until it flies off to rejoin, when it does the separation and re-attaching animations it regains most of the parent fx/costume.
4) I am not even sure if the Worker Bees work, between a 2 item Borg set and not taking much damage, they never got to heal me the times I had them deployed. Every time I used them on the Aquarius or Saucer, they tended to get AoEd before they could use their powers (or maybe their healing does not show up in my combat log, not sure which). Unlike the Aquarius or Saucer, they will just disappear if you get too far ahead of them under impulse speed (a second or two under full they can catch up, much longer and they despawn or get lost, not sure whic,h but they seem to be gone if I go back to their last known location after a longer full impulse jaunt).
5) When using the Sci version, Sensor Analysis did not seem to be that noticeable since few NPCs not of a real boss level last that long (which as mentioned before, I did not do STFs or PvP, where I might have such an opponent). Its loss would be more of a bummer than a great loss but using it did not really seem to affect normal/average PvE much.
I loved the ship as the Anniversary Version, it is even better with the consoles and having the option to pick which base ship to use (though I am sure we will pay well for the ability to choose). Thank you and the rest of the team that did so much work on it!
i think that 2k for any of the ships is over priced even 1600 is alot but generally reasonable , its the sole reason i buy the other ships but not the MVAM or the galaxy X, i wont be buying this or the bundle pack seeing as i only want one of the special consoles , just my two cents
Or how about they learn to do itemization properly, don't differentiate based on console slots, don't give any variant a freebie, and do something different that is interesting but not overpowered instead?
We've already gone over differentiating based on the Lt Cmdr. slot, that's just obvious.
What's less obvious is the extra console slot. It's an obvious imbalance. It's possible that this is just Cryptic sliding further down the slippery slope of selling power, but it's just as plausible that the only reason the extra console slot exists is to make it easier to slot all three consoles. But there is a far better, and no offense to Cryptic, but also pretty darn obvious solution: Just make the set bonus larger to offset the loss of regular consoles. You still encourage people to buy all three variants to move their interchangeable consoles around without introducing an obvious imbalance.
Why am I not surprised in the slightest? :rolleyes:
I have to ask ... Have you tried the ships on tribble yet and gathered data to support your theories?
Regarding the Aquarius pet, it seems is moving a bit faster than it should, or at least it doesn't get enough far from his target after each pass. It just doesn't have the chance to aim and fire the Quad Cannons, turning away due proximity each time it tries to face the target.
As example, a log of 270 seconds combat shows:
-11 normal Quad Cannon shots (from 5 bursts, 4 uncomplete)
-8 Rapid Fire Quad Cannons shots (from 3 bursts, 2 uncomplete)
-14 Quantum Torpedoes
-112 Point Defense System shots
-223 normal Phaser turret shots
-180 Rapid Fire Phaser turret shots.
Test was done on a Secure System mission on B'tran, with the pet being free of any kind of damage against.
Really? $100 USD for all FED and KDF "super" ships?? I can see $5 USD for the upgraded base ship and maybe $2 USD per individual console. This is outright ridiculous and frankly, just outrageously disrespectful to the STO community who has tried to support this game from the beginning. I couldn't believe that the Galaxy Dreadnought was $25 USD when it was released, but this takes the cake.
Just off a quick run with them, the escort and saucer while idle sit on you aft section at odd angles. Much like the Galaxy first did with its poor pathing and movement. Will add more as I get through it.
I'm really digging the tactical Odyssey. The only problem I can see is that there is no animation for the Aquarius shuttle docking. Other than that don't change a thing about the tactical Odyssey.
I tried to test it. While I love the look and the BOFFs and the consoles are pretty cool (especially the escort pet), I just cannot deal with the turn rate.
Well I was in Ker'rat in my Bortas'qu, and had several fights with Oddyseys. There was also a 2v2 ruck a few times that gave us a rough idea, but so far it's been impossible to find anyone not flying a plus one flagship to compare with normal ships, but the speed with which NPCs can be dispatched leads me to believe that both are kicking out way more damage than a regular cruiser without making any sacrifice to survivability. I plan to drive the Oddy tomorrow when I've got time, but from fighting it these are my findings.
First, apparently it is possible to launch both the saucer and the escort by launching one, then logging, and launching the other when you log back in. I was under the impression it wasn't supposed to be able to deploy both at once.
Second, as a Tac in the Tac Bortas, I was being outdamaged by a similarly armed Oddysey flown by an engineer on one occasion. Sensor analysis is giving way more of a buff than a fith console ever could. Granted, it's "over time" that the bonus builds up, but with the ammount of ships out there that tank for minutes at a time, this is frankly not a good argument against it at all. It just means if a fight drags on, after a while it'll get the firepower to finish it.
I like both suggestions for toning it down, either a diminished version, or the innate target subsystem 1 from science ships.
Also, from what I can see, the Oddy's pets also try and nudge it along like tugboats when deployed so it's suffering the same probelm as the Bortas with their station keeping location appearing to be inside the Oddysey.
All in all though, I think they'll both need to stay on tribble for a while for any realistic testing to be done, comparing "with this" and "with out this" etc takes time to do properly. In a casual fight, I wasn't able to determine wether I really was being purely outdamaged, or wether the workbees were negating a lot of my damage for example.
As a side note, would more people please queue up for Arena on Tribble? The only way to test things properly is PVP, and so far the only PVP that's been had is random encounters in Ker'rat, although most people you bump into are chatty enough, discuss the ships, "let's try this then" etc... it's no substitute for Arena as a test.
All in all though, as it is right now it looks like it outdamages and/or outheals all other cruisers with the right set up. I'm pretty sure in fact that it could be setup to outdamage an excelsior while losing none of the collosal healing utility of a star cruiser, which I plan to check out when I get one. I'll post again tomorrow.
Lastly, in STOked it was said the intention isn't to obsolete all other cruisers, but it's obvious this does. No ammount of "it's not designed to be OP" will change that I'm afraid. Either it was designed to be OP, or it needs to be redesigned. Well it needs to be redesigned anyway, but you get my point.;)
As is, I kind of agree that 2000 CP is pricey for what's given out. It's likely that if the price was lowered to 1600, and the bundle made 3200 that it'd feel more palatable for a lot of prospective buyers. More bang for my buck could've included a standalone playable Aquarius ship, but Al Rivera already announced that the Odyssey Tactical Cruiser - unlike the D'Kyr - would not come with its auxiliary craft as a playable vessel.
Considering that, and the hint that such might be implemented in the future, I started this feature request thread. Al Rivera says they try to release new C-Store ships every month; I, for one, would like to see the Aquarius and Hoh'Sus be those next month. Chime in that thread if you're interested too!
The little ship would not follow me around like normal. It would increase speed to get right up under my belly and point it's nose at my like a nursing pup.
So far exactly what I expected based on the stats. What's your point?
No point ... Just curious and wondering if you had any raw data to filter through via combat logs or such. I haven't had the chance to test the sci versions yet to see how the SA stacks up.
Let's do some numbercrunching. See the bottom of this post for details about the testing environment.
Part 1: Damage
2 consoles: 706 (=100% for this section)
3 consoles: 760 (=107,6%)
5 consoles: 852 (=120,7%, tested on a Bortas)
2 consoles + Sensor Analysis: 934 (=132,2%)
5 consoles + Sensor Analysis: 1.152 (=163,2%; also a +35% gain over 5 consoles without SA, tested on a Bortas)
We see here that the numbers given in Post1 are roughly correct. An additional +26 tactical console boosts damage by roughly 7%. The claim made in Post2 that a single console could add up to 30% damage (for Mk XII consoles I suppose) is simply wrong. At least for a situation with high weapon power which is the only situation that actually matters because of the large scaling of damage with weapon power levels that renders low power weapon fire essentially useless. Sensor analysis indeed grants a straight +33% damage bonus. It takes time to build up, but this is not suited to provide the necessary balance, because in both STFs and PVP firing at a single target for an extended period of time is a useful and often applied strategy (e.g. against the transformers, gates and tactical cubes; or focus fire / healer pressuring in PVP). The discrepancy between a 7% gain from an additional console and 35% from Sensor Analysis is huge and even a not fully built-up Sensor Analysis it will easily match or surpass an additional console.
Conclusion
Sensor Analyis appears to be massively overpowered compared to the tradeoff in form of a single tactical console (which not even simply disappears, but rather is only transformed into a science console). I suggest either dropping Sensor Analyis from the flagships or restricting these particular variants of the flagships to only seven weapon slots to compensate the overall damage increase.
Part 2: Hull and Turn rates
Odyssey Science
Hull: 57.513
Shields: 12.537
Turn: 10,6 (9,6 without 3-piece bonus)
Odyssey Science in Chevron mode
Hull: 50.012
Shields: 11.940
Turn: 18,6 (17,6 without 3-piece bonus)
Star Cruiser
Hull: 53.405
Shields: 10.902
Turn: 11,9
Galaxy Refit
Hull: 54.775
Shields: 10.902
Turn: 9,6
Galaxy Refit with saucer separation
Hull: 47.630
Shields: 10.383
Turn: 19,5
Conclusion:
The turnrate is in the middle between Galaxy and Star Cruiser. This should make it good enough to not be a significant drawback. So in contrast to the Galaxy, it probably won't be held back by its turn rate and could indeed replace all existing cruisers (with maybe the exception of the Excelsior).
I think the stats while in chevron mode could be problematic. It has more shields than a Star Cruiser!
And of course directional high-level science powers become much more effective when one can actually point the ship the right way. The combination of a high turnrate mode and a universal LtC could create balance problems.
I'm not sure how to address this. Locking the chevron mode to a non-sci LtC could work, but is probably not feasible from a technical perspective unless the concept of universal LtCs is reconsidered and replaced by fixed LtCs for the different versions, thus making it possible to lock the chevron mode to tac and eng versions.
Part 3: Test conditions
All tests were conducted with a character that has full weapons, hull/shields and thruster spec. The shield values are for a MACO Mk XI shield and with a +35% capacity console. The turn rate is measured at 50 base engine power (~73 effectively) with a borg engine. Damage tests were done with Mk X white phasers or disruptors at 117 power, firing only one weapon for 1 minute as to not get any artifacts from power drain. Critical hits were discarded, so the damage values are true averages and not biased by the critical hit rate in the timeframe of the test. All damage values are raw values, prior to shield or hull resists. The two ships were always exactly 5km apart. The tactical consoles used were blue Mk XI (+26).
EDIT: An additional fact with regards to Sensor Analysis that is interesting for the Klingon Flagship: SA can be built up while cloaked and thus provide the full boost once you decide to enter battle.
Oh pricing is up. 2000 CP each or all three for 4000. Just an FYI
Oh wait . . . . okay I hope in this case we get boxes like we do for testing. One slot I'll open up in my shipyard to grab a ship and rearrange consoles, etc. But 3, no. So I may have to buy more ship slots. yeah . .. I'll just buy more ship slots but before I decide on doing that doesn anyone know how this will be distributed?
Which is what I've been trying to say for this entire thread. Differentiation based on console layout doesn't work.
The solution isn't to add in SA to the science variant, because then everyone just takes that ship instead. The solution is to differentiate based on something else, like boff seating.
Cryptic, is this really so difficult to understand?
Comments
im with you on all that, i just posted that to try to blunt the insanity with something less insane. i think all these ability consoles should be devices anyway so it wont need 10 consoles. will proboly need more device slots though. see this post earlier in the thread-
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=4091878&postcount=214
$100 for all versions of both ships
NOPE
This idea could certainly work, although I think someone mentioned earlier in this thread about reducing sensor analysis by about 50% when applied to the Odyssey...so instead of stacking ten times, it would only stack five.
This would potentially put it more in line with the damage production potential of say, the Bortas variants (though the tactical variant of the Bortas would still have it beat by about 1% at its new max analysis, not accounting for weapons power). Since this is intended to be a +1 ship after all, I don't see that as being too far out of line.
As it is, 10 sensor analysis on a cruiser is clearly better than anything else currently in the game, imho. I had the time to do some quick pve on tribble with the science variant, and I was clearing things in about half the time it took me with my Galaxy-X. That just isn't right...
First, I need to yell at you and question your dedication to STO, err, wait, my bad, you said NOT to do that.
Seriously, I have to say this, I hope these are not too much for all three because I need them all.
1) I did not STF or PvP in any of the following testing, so the conclusions are skewed against such. Also was all done solo, so skewed for that too.
2) The Aquarius made a noticeable difference in combat, most targets went down twice as fast (or faster) than if I had fought them without it. While docked, the Aqua used the ships FX, when it separates, it loses all parent ship FX such as the Reman Shield. Aqua is doing Disruptor damage with its Point Defense System (and is noticeable thanks to its green fx).
3) The saucer seems to be a less active participant in combat when compared to Aquarius (and very needy, it is bumping you all the time if you stop moving). The boosts it gives to your ship make up for its lack of being little more than a floating health pool that sometimes fires (and it did some kind of sensor scramble ability one time). It too loses all parent FX when it separates until it flies off to rejoin, when it does the separation and re-attaching animations it regains most of the parent fx/costume.
4) I am not even sure if the Worker Bees work, between a 2 item Borg set and not taking much damage, they never got to heal me the times I had them deployed.
5) When using the Sci version, Sensor Analysis did not seem to be that noticeable since few NPCs not of a real boss level last that long (which as mentioned before, I did not do STFs or PvP, where I might have such an opponent). Its loss would be more of a bummer than a great loss but using it did not really seem to affect normal/average PvE much.
I loved the ship as the Anniversary Version, it is even better with the consoles and having the option to pick which base ship to use (though I am sure we will pay well for the ability to choose). Thank you and the rest of the team that did so much work on it!
Also why do the saucer and escort pets sit there under the hull like that? Surely they can sit where they are until the need to follow is required?
I have to ask ... Have you tried the ships on tribble yet and gathered data to support your theories?
As example, a log of 270 seconds combat shows:
-11 normal Quad Cannon shots (from 5 bursts, 4 uncomplete)
-8 Rapid Fire Quad Cannons shots (from 3 bursts, 2 uncomplete)
-14 Quantum Torpedoes
-112 Point Defense System shots
-223 normal Phaser turret shots
-180 Rapid Fire Phaser turret shots.
Test was done on a Secure System mission on B'tran, with the pet being free of any kind of damage against.
But of course.
First, apparently it is possible to launch both the saucer and the escort by launching one, then logging, and launching the other when you log back in. I was under the impression it wasn't supposed to be able to deploy both at once.
Second, as a Tac in the Tac Bortas, I was being outdamaged by a similarly armed Oddysey flown by an engineer on one occasion. Sensor analysis is giving way more of a buff than a fith console ever could. Granted, it's "over time" that the bonus builds up, but with the ammount of ships out there that tank for minutes at a time, this is frankly not a good argument against it at all. It just means if a fight drags on, after a while it'll get the firepower to finish it.
I like both suggestions for toning it down, either a diminished version, or the innate target subsystem 1 from science ships.
Also, from what I can see, the Oddy's pets also try and nudge it along like tugboats when deployed so it's suffering the same probelm as the Bortas with their station keeping location appearing to be inside the Oddysey.
All in all though, I think they'll both need to stay on tribble for a while for any realistic testing to be done, comparing "with this" and "with out this" etc takes time to do properly. In a casual fight, I wasn't able to determine wether I really was being purely outdamaged, or wether the workbees were negating a lot of my damage for example.
As a side note, would more people please queue up for Arena on Tribble? The only way to test things properly is PVP, and so far the only PVP that's been had is random encounters in Ker'rat, although most people you bump into are chatty enough, discuss the ships, "let's try this then" etc... it's no substitute for Arena as a test.
All in all though, as it is right now it looks like it outdamages and/or outheals all other cruisers with the right set up. I'm pretty sure in fact that it could be setup to outdamage an excelsior while losing none of the collosal healing utility of a star cruiser, which I plan to check out when I get one. I'll post again tomorrow.
Lastly, in STOked it was said the intention isn't to obsolete all other cruisers, but it's obvious this does. No ammount of "it's not designed to be OP" will change that I'm afraid. Either it was designed to be OP, or it needs to be redesigned. Well it needs to be redesigned anyway, but you get my point.;)
As is, I kind of agree that 2000 CP is pricey for what's given out. It's likely that if the price was lowered to 1600, and the bundle made 3200 that it'd feel more palatable for a lot of prospective buyers. More bang for my buck could've included a standalone playable Aquarius ship, but Al Rivera already announced that the Odyssey Tactical Cruiser - unlike the D'Kyr - would not come with its auxiliary craft as a playable vessel.
Considering that, and the hint that such might be implemented in the future, I started this feature request thread. Al Rivera says they try to release new C-Store ships every month; I, for one, would like to see the Aquarius and Hoh'Sus be those next month. Chime in that thread if you're interested too!
Excellent ... How have the facts stacked up in your testing?
Was using Tac ship
The little ship would not follow me around like normal. It would increase speed to get right up under my belly and point it's nose at my like a nursing pup.
Nice! i just happen to have 4008 XD Now what to spend the other 8c on . . .
So far exactly what I expected based on the stats. What's your point?
Yeap ... all six ... and many will as well.
No point ... Just curious and wondering if you had any raw data to filter through via combat logs or such. I haven't had the chance to test the sci versions yet to see how the SA stacks up.
I need to go digging for that one then ... too many threads and posts to sift through.
It's easily the best post in both threads. I'll quote it again for you and anyone that missed it.
However, the Odyssey actually has 2 useful consoles (eng+sci) while the Bortas has none.
The pet escort/bop do trivial damage, the disruptor auto cannon is weak (caveat I had phaser consoles), and the snare console has a long cooldown.
And I'm having a hard time seeing why anyone would fly any other cruiser.
Oh wait . . . . okay I hope in this case we get boxes like we do for testing. One slot I'll open up in my shipyard to grab a ship and rearrange consoles, etc. But 3, no. So I may have to buy more ship slots. yeah . .. I'll just buy more ship slots but before I decide on doing that doesn anyone know how this will be distributed?
myself and 2 other plus 1 kicked butt in borg encounter
extra craft made it like full team
can't wait to get it I like the console layout better by class
STF's might be better then
i will be getting both three packs for consoles
On this point, at least, we agree.