To be honest, I'm tired of reading all the "doom and gloom" and I'm no longer going to attempt to clear up any misconceptions or speculations in this thread any further, I want CaptainGeko to come back, read through the feedback, especially with attention to the constructive feedback from me and a few others that was given specifically in relation to the OP, not to say that I want him to ignore the "doom and gloom" posts (hard to miss them) because surely those deserve a response as well, but I would love to hear what the official response is to all of this since he left us with this thread for the weekend. Also there's quite a few questions that people would like answers to.
This is my favourite topic on the forum at present with the largest potential impact on the game.
How about a simpler solution other than destroying what little originality is left in this game?
Make a GROUND character separate from space. Yes you heard me. ADD an extra set of character slots and allow each player to make a toon that will be his ground combat persona.
Nerfing space further and making everyone a cookie-cutter template is a very bad idea. If you devs knew anything about online games you should know that the DEATH BELL of games is when replayability and uniqueness of player characters is removed and everyone in game has the exact same skill sets.
Every MMO that failed spectacularly tried that strategy and are now bad memories. Dont turn STO into that.
Actually nothing will change as pfar as PvP is concerned due to skill in how to skill and experience are they biggest difference that has some PvP'ers at the top of the game and then trickling down to the casual PvP'er.
Basically those whom do well now will still do well under the new system.
I only agree to a point. Those that do well will continue to do well.
Just not 'as well'.
They may hit less harder, or be able to take less damage. When you have to spread your points out, that kind of disadvantage is unavoidable. So you can say that an experienced player will still feel the pinch. Whether or not they're skilled enough as players to adapt to it is up to the individual. But in general, you can say that a specialized player won't be as potent in his or her specialty.
It'll really suck for escorts, who need all the points they can get, especially in STF's.
For me, ground combat sucks, and if I wanted to run around and shoot rifles, I would play another game. (there are TONS of them in which the ground combat is much better than STOs version)
I play STO because, for me, it is a SPACE game. Sure, there are other space games, but STO is by far my favorite.
At the same time, I am sure that there are players that prefer ground combat, and they will also suffer from this change if it happens.
This so called "balance" is nothing more than an attempt to create "cookie-cutter" character templates. Its a terrible idea in my opinion. If I wanted to have 25% of my skills spent into ground, I would do it myself. Why not just throw out the skill tree altogether and give every player the same set of skills and equipment? Sounds ridiculous right? :rolleyes: Sadly, it seems that we are heading to cookie-cutter land. How boring. Just how far will this go before the skill tree is completely "dumbed down" ?
Wouldn't it make more sense for people to make their own decision on how they would like to play the game? Why should I be forced to waste points on skills that I care nothing for?
Instead of fixing what isn't broken, why not focus on fixing the things that are? (double shields, dual commanders, etc)
I have loved STO since beta, but I can't support this idea at all. There SHOULD be positives and negatives to how you build a character's skills. It seems to me as if some players just want to be equally good at every single aspect of the game regarless of how little sense that makes.
Plan your character, put some effort and thought into it. IF you are great at ground combat and suck in space, or vice-versa, that is on you, not the game.
What's next? Forcing "x" career class captains to fly only "x" class ships? Forcing Feds to all use phasers and Klinks use only disruptors? Sheesh! :mad:
Let us players decide where to spend our points, just as it is in every other successful MMO out there. You would never see WoW telling all their players that they have to spend X% of there skill points in "crafting" or X amount of skills in "magery". That would be stupid. Well, this idea is equally as stupid. Specializing in a skill set is what makes MMOs fun.
I play video games to have fun. For me, space combat is fun. Ground combat is not. If STO forces me to waste skill points in ground skills, by enforcing some "75-25" rule, they negate my reason for playing STO. Also my reason for paying a fee to STO for will be gone. I have yet to find a single member with whom I play STO who disagrees with that opinion. I've heard that some people are complaining they can't compete in PvP because their opponents are fully speced for space. Gee, that's too bad. Freedom to play the game as you wish to play it should be a basic tenet in any video game. Our builds, our weapons, our consoles, our skill proportions, etc. should be our decision. Take that away from us and, as far as I'm concerned, I'm wasting my money.
And everyone else will have the same constraints as you meaning you're not losing out in PvP, and the game is still excessively easy with PvE so what's the big deal?
The problem is that you are not thinking this all the way through.
Yes, everyone will be nerfed in a similar fashion BUT how that nerf actually effects them may vary rather drastically. Let me provide some examples to give some insight.
If I fly a Cruiser and just want to Tank myself out I have plenty of Engineering skills, Device Slots, and a tough ship so even though I am loosing points I will still be relatively fine. I can still tank a lot of damage and keep myself together.
If I am flying an Escort though and need to deal massive damage in order to be effective I will find that I cannot spec into enough of those last tier space skills + the Maneuverability that is essential to keeping my cannons on target and keeping me alive for a few more seconds, +whatever few precious heals I can manage to survive. The problem is that unlike the Cruiser my ship is not so innately good at being maneuverable and deadly, especially vs. the heals I am fighting against, that I can afford to take further and further hits to these key aspects of my ships performance.
Say I am in a Science Ship and my main goal is to hold folks down with Tractors/GW and Drain down their Shields so that my friends can pop them. Am I going to have to sacrifice my mediocre maneuverability that I may well need to get a grip on those sporty Escorts? Do I have to sacrifice my Tank to be effective at my build? What will stop the enemy from just popping me on sight? Do I have to deal no damage whatsoever but have a nice tanky E-War ship? Well it will sure suck in PvE then...
I still think it's silly and backwards to have diminishing returns on skill point investment. I can understand it on gear; I was totally behind enhancement diversification in City of Heroes. But it's wacky to discourage maxing out skills.
I 100% agree. It does seem backwards and nonsensical. Would you not get progressively MORE benefit from spending MORE points into something? Should not your extremely skill in a particular field set you apart from others noticeably? Is that not how it really works?
Then there's always the nuclear solution for parity among players, just give the players enough points to max out each skill. If everyone has everything maxed out, then we have parity, except for the skills of the player. <--- sarcasm
Considering that was the way it was originally supposed to be and that this is WHY we have diminishing returns because they did not want the no SP cap and fully maxed Skill Tree to make you absolutely Uber: We should really either allow this or get rid of these diminishing returns for good.
I only agree to a point. Those that do well will continue to do well.
Just not 'as well'.
They may hit less harder, or be able to take less damage. When you have to spread your points out, that kind of disadvantage is unavoidable. So you can say that an experienced player will still feel the pinch. Whether or not they're skilled enough as players to adapt to it is up to the individual. But in general, you can say that a specialized player won't be as potent in his or her specialty.
It'll really suck for escorts, who need all the points they can get, especially in STF's.
What it means is that the top PvP'ers will just slowly slide more and more into the optimal build/ship/weapons and the variety in a group will slowly slide down.
I know Cryptic wants to push PvP but I have noticed that there are five types of folks in MMO's that actually PvP:
The Predators: They LOVE PvP BUT only if it is against a weaker foe who has no chance against them. If they cannot have some sort of OP advantage they are not interested.
The Strategists: They almost love the prebattle and the engineering of the perfect war machine more than the fireworks. The fireworks are just celebration for a job well done. (I'm in this camp if I am honest.) This group will PvP, possibly a lot if they have a group who is interested otherwise they will use it as a testing ground.
The Berserker: Leeeeeeeroy Jenkins!!! These guys love the BOOMS and BANGS and could care less who wins or loses so long as they create maximum carnage and take folks with them in their blaze of glory. (I love these guys, they are SO much fun.) They will PvP or PvE whatever lets them blow up the most stuff is what they are going to do.
The Professional: These people live for PvP. Think of them a bit like military. They can follow orders, they can give them if they need to, they fight with a cool head and get the job done. They enjoy a well played PvP and are not in the least scared of a challenge. If they loose it is just motivation to make themselves better for the next round.
The Uninitiated: These folks are more interested in smelling the roses than fighting really. They want good looking ships with rainbow lazors. They are more concerned about looking awesome and hopefully killing someone to prove that all their work to get everything "Just So" was worthwhile. They often will not specialize very much and do not take the time to really understand what "Works" and what does not. They want to PvP to show off but often are disheartened when they run head-long into a Predator who was just waiting to pwn them or a Strategist who utterly destroys them for their lack of planning. They can handle getting squashed by the Professionals because they are generally a bit nicer about it and may even be willing to make more of a show of it for them so it at least is interesting.
Those who do NOT PvP and who have absolutely NO interest in it can generally NOT be persueded to take part in it no matter WHAT you do to them. If you FORCE them to do it they will just leave your game because it is NOT what they want to do. They all have their reasons and all of them are perfectly valid. So making these changes are not going to suck these folks into PvP.
It will also NOT really help to make the Uninitiated more capable because they still have to contend with the Professionals who will have team-work and precision on their side and the Strategists who will have made the Silver Bullet to shoot them with and have won the fight before it even started. The Predators will be weakened initially and it will help them to avoid that humiliating loss but sooner or later they will learn from the Pros and Strategists and a whole new round of Gank The Noob will begin.
I've been working with hybrid ground/space builds for a long time. I've always hated the idea of people specializing and having an advantage over me as a result.
So yeah, I look forward to this equalizing. Some of these specialists won't feel so strong now, will they? *L*
I will point out drock that THAT was your choice to build your char as a hybrid. You wanted a hybrid, and therefor made one. You could have easily made one that specializes in other areas, but you exercised "free" choice in making your character.
I build strictly ground characters. I don't like the space battles in STO, always hated them. I play the ground missions, so why should I be forced to play the game your way? Just because you want a hybrid, why should everyone else be forced to? I'm not a PvPer, more casual than anything on that side. I do more STFs and PvE, so where's your point? I never see or play with you ingame, so what's with your attitude? Even if you force some core PvPers into playing watered down characters, you will still get owned because they have the skills already honed in those areas to take down people that don't play PvP constantly in the game.
Just stating the reality of the facts, whether you like it or not. Core PvPers will always wipe up casual PvPers because that's what they practice at and continually do in the game. The only way you will get beyond that is forcing a time limit that people can play PvP to meet your "playing time". Or you can always program a system that will handicap a player, and make their ship operate at -50% efficiency to give a casual pvper a chance against them.
SO 54,562 points for space and 18,188 points for ground?
Are ground skills to have a diferent cost per Tier?
To behonest I haven't watched the thread as the constant "Here's how we are doing things this week" is overshadowed to quickly by the " Here's how we are doing things this week."
Geko also mentioned the total amount of points may be changing so it might not even be 72750. It might be 80000 for 60k space, 20k ground or whatever.
Until we see the actual breakdown, new point values, new point costs, etc, everything is just speculation.
I play video games to have fun. For me, space combat is fun. Ground combat is not. If STO forces me to waste skill points in ground skills, by enforcing some "75-25" rule, they negate my reason for playing STO. Also my reason for paying a fee to STO for will be gone. I have yet to find a single member with whom I play STO who disagrees with that opinion. I've heard that some people are complaining they can't compete in PvP because their opponents are fully speced for space. Gee, that's too bad. Freedom to play the game as you wish to play it should be a basic tenet in any video game. Our builds, our weapons, our consoles, our skill proportions, etc. should be our decision. Take that away from us and, as far as I'm concerned, I'm wasting my money.
Because space combat is *completely going away*.. Oh, wait.. It's not. And everybody is going to have the exact same amount of points (whatever that final number ends up being) in space skills. Again, what's the point in whining until we actually, you know, see how the trees and new point values/costs works out?
And, of course, I guess well balanced Captains are 'bad' for some reason.. :rolleyes:
This is just a simplified dumbed down version of the skill tree with less options to choose your characters' development.
The day that it gets implemented, is the day that I say farewell to STO. I do not like ground combat, I chose not to play ground combat, and I chose not to waste my skill points on ground combat. Its not that space combat is going away, its just being dumbed down to better suit people who either:
A. Aren't as good at pvp (according to the OP)
or
B. Are too lazy to practice at something to get better they way many of us have
or
C. a combination of A and B (this one is the most likely I think)
When I started STO I completely sucked at pvp. Was it the games fault? Was it the skill tree's fault? No. It was my lack of practice and planning my skills. I made adjustments and I got better with time. That's the way it is SUPPOSED to be. :rolleyes:
Maybe I should've whined because ground combat was too challenging for me when STFs all required ground combat as well as space. Nah.. I had a revolutionary idea... I made a character and invested points into ground combat to run STFs if I ever want to.
The only reason I decided to stay with STO instead of TOR is that I prefer space combat. If I am going to be forced into spending points on an aspect of the game that I don't care much for, perhaps the smarter move would be to play a game with much better ground combat instead of playing STO.
It really saddens me to say this.. especially after all the times I defended STO to others since beta, but the only result here is that players will have less options, and are being forced to suit the playing style of "middle of the road" casual players that want instant gratification.
This is just another crapfest on those of us that prefer pvp and have worked hard to get better at it. Every player here has had the same choices at planning their character's skills. Those that prefer ground have spent the bulk of their points there. Those that prefer space have done likewise. Those that like both equally have spent their points accordingly as well.
What this boils down to is this : "I spent half my points in ground skills and I think I should still be as good at space pvp as those that spent all their points is space skills." What a stupid notion. To be honest, I can't believe that its even being entertained.
This would be like 2 olympic athletes competing in the olympics. Runner A spent all his time training for "X" event, which is the only event he cares about. Runner B split his training equally between "X" and "Y" events. So, in the interest of "balance" the officials decide to give runner B a head start in "X". Um yeah.. that's fair.
Seriously, it makes more sense to vet the functional and business requirements of the change before it gets approved, developed and promoted to production where it will be near impossible for them to reverse because it will mean they made a mistake.
Seems to me it's common sense to catch the mistake at the earliest portion of the process than wait until the end of it after they spent all that money developing it.
The only way they can do this and keep me happy (and most of my fleet) is to keep the same amount of points available to space skills and add points that are strictly for ground.
I avoid ground like the plague, especially since I am at endgame and the only thing to do is borg... the borg ground missions are a true grind, doing just one sucks the life out of me. When I originally did the stfs (pre-S5) I swore I would never touch any stf again, then the revamp happened, and space stfs are fun... but im getting away from the point.
GROUND IS SUCKY
Leave my skill points right where they are, thank you!
Seriously, it makes more sense to vet the functional and business requirements of the change before it gets approved, developed and promoted to production where it will be near impossible for them to reverse because it will mean they made a mistake.
Seems to me it's common sense to catch the mistake at the earliest portion of the process than wait until the end of it after they spent all that money developing it.
Gee, that wouldn't be why they're going to test it on Tribble first instead of just putting it onto Holodeck, would it?
And, there's no way they're ever going to make *everybody* happy. For as many people who do want the skills split, there are likely as many who don't.
But again, I'm able to *wait and see*. After all, it was the same attitude that most people have now that got the B'Rel Retrofit nerfed into uselessness initially. The ship wasn't even in game and people were *screaming* at how OP it was and how it would ruin PvP and so on, so, the final ship they did put in was a mere shell of what it could have been, and it's never fully recovered. But no, people couldn't wait until it hit the test sever so they could try it in game. Just the description was proof enough that the ship would be game breaking, and so it was crippled from the start.
Ground combat is very poor is design and mechanics. With this nerf it will force players to choose ground combat which no one wants to do. This is will remove player choice. Star Trek is about space combat. Star Wars is about ground combat. It will ALWAYS be this way.
When people think of Star Trek most of the time the first thing they think of is a Starship of some design like any of the Enterprise versions. When people think about Star Wars the first thing they think about is Jedi. Enterprise = Space, Jedi = Ground. It's pretty simple memory recall process.
What needs to happen is a seperate sets of points that are independant from the general pool that can only go into ground combat. The 75 / 25 ratio thing is " immature by design " and won't work right.
Ground combat is very poor is design and mechanics. With this nerf it will force players to choose ground combat which no one wants to do. This is will remove player choice. Star Trek is about space combat. Star Wars is about ground combat. It will ALWAYS be this way.
When people think of Star Trek most of the time the first thing they think of is a Starship of some design like any of the Enterprise versions. When people think about Star Wars the first thing they think about is Jedi. Enterprise = Space, Jedi = Ground. It's pretty simple memory recall process.
What needs to happen is a seperate sets of points that are independant from the general pool that can only go into ground combat. The 75 / 25 ratio thing is " immature by design " and won't work right.
Just because you dont like ground combat dosnt mean no one wants to do it. I like ground combat, I even enjoyed it before it was improved. Now its even better.
Now that that is out of the way, I agree that the 75/25 thing is the wrong way to go about it. When the community asked to separate the ground and space skills they meant them to use seperate skill points so that people wouldnt have to sacrifice points in one or the other. Forcing people to spend them doesnt seem to be the way to go.
Not everybody is an alt-ahololic like you. A lot of people (if not most people) only have 1 or 2 chars, and being albe to space or ground dump hurts those guys.
Exactly, and I say that as an alt-oholic myself. Also what is a ground specialist in this game? It's a character that has EVERY ground skill maxed. Sure, you are better then 99% of the other players on ground and breeze through the STFs, but against another ground "specialist" in PvP? He will have the EXACT same build. How is that not cooky cutter?
[*]NO. No no no no no no a thousand times NO! Space combat is where I'm happy. Ground combat is that annoying time between space combats when I get one-shotted or gutted by Klingon Swordmasters. Forcing me to dump 3/4s of my points into the ground combat will drive me away. Do not let SW:TOR fool you, space combat and content is NOT something you can just turn into a second class citizen and get away with. DO NOT NERF SPACE COMBAT!
You might get less one shotten and gutted with some points in ground and get maybe less annoyed by that part of the game.
I just wanted to add I am not opposed to the changes in ground skills I just feel that we should have the choice to put our skill points where we wish to put them.
Gee, that wouldn't be why they're going to test it on Tribble first instead of just putting it onto Holodeck, would it?
AFTER they design, develop and test it internally at Cryptic. Glad to see you agree with me about wasting a lot of man hours and money before pushing it out.
Because everybody is going to be on a level playing field?
You do realize that it still won't be a "level playing field" even after they force us to make characters their way? You are still going to get owned by those that love PvP. Unless they program a handicap into the system to put the Core PvPer at a "degraded" efficiency against the "casual" PvPer.
Star Trek is about space combat. Star Wars is about ground combat. It will ALWAYS be this way.
This is funny. I wonder if anyone has ever ran that stats on how many shows from Star Trek were landing party episodes to just plain "space combat" episodes. Most of the shows I remember had some form of landing party beaming down to a planet.
To be honest, I'm tired of reading all the "doom and gloom" and I'm no longer going to attempt to clear up any misconceptions or speculations in this thread any further, I want CaptainGeko to come back, read through the feedback, especially with attention to the constructive feedback from me and a few others that was given specifically in relation to the OP, not to say that I want him to ignore the "doom and gloom" posts (hard to miss them) because surely those deserve a response as well, but I would love to hear what the official response is to all of this since he left us with this thread for the weekend. Also there's quite a few questions that people would like answers to.
This is my favourite topic on the forum at present with the largest potential impact on the game.
I suppose we have to trust CaptainGeko's abilty to evaluate the feedback on his own. You can panic now.*
Mustrum Ridcully * Just kidding** ** Or am I? Dunh Dunh Dunh!
It's about time. It is hard to do a balanced space ground build and it got harder when the ground tree wasn't updated since it was the same tree with a 50% hike in cost. I'm glade to see it coming.
The community asked for the ground and space skill point distribution to be separated, and it will be. Even if the community didn't ask for it, it's a good idea and should have been done a long time ago. I mean seriously, what's the difference between the way they've split the pool of skill points and what some of you are all asking for, well...
The only difference between what they're doing here and what many of you are asking for is that they are slim-lining the system making skill distribution more efficient and balanced, while many of you are just saying I want more skill points and I want to be able to spend them where I choose to do so, for example spending all of your skill points ranking up space skills making you superior to any other player who has decided to distribute so many skill points ranking up some ground skills.
Honestly, allowing some of you who are asking for more skill points to be added for the separate ground pool so that you can keep all of your current points in your space skills and allowing some of you who are asking to keep the ability to just skill into whatever you like so that you basically can do your best to max out in one side of the game, meaning you keep your superiority over others is just ridiculous because you'er not considering the rest of the proposal...
Which is the fact that they've reduced the total number of skills which means the required skill points to max out everything has been reduced by approximately 31%, and more importantly they will be increasing the cost of lower tier skills and reducing the cost of higher tier skills so that players have a much more viable choice when they decide to spec into a build that takes advantage of higher tier skills, because they'll be cheaper.
Also, on STOked episode 108 today, it was mentioned that CaptainGeko "is planning to get this to Tribble within a week" from Saturday (just gone) for testing purpouses, click below for more info from Cryptic Borticus.
Why not put dual speccing in the C-Store? I can't believe I'm asking for something to be put in the CS
That way if someone wants to spec in ground skills he can do it in a way that isn't diminishing his effectiveness in space.
Also 25% skill points in ground is close to nothing, especially since you don't need any points in ground to play PvE content effectively.
If you have PvP in mind again 25% is worthless since anyone who wants to PvP on ground will be fully specced and will have the appropriate traits for it meaning that someone interested in it would build his characters from scratch for it, same goes for space.
Looking at it from this point of view the players that loose the most are all of us with characters that were built for specific areas of PvP, all PvE players probably have their skills balanced already and even with the 75:25 ratio the skill point playing field is not balanced since most of the PvErs will probably stay at their 50:50 set up.
Geko also mentioned the total amount of points may be changing so it might not even be 72750. It might be 80000 for 60k space, 20k ground or whatever.
Until we see the actual breakdown, new point values, new point costs, etc, everything is just speculation.
Ah, as it ever is until the penny drops.
Frankly I do not see where this will make things worse or better for PvP just more spread out.
Those whom do well in PvP will continue to do so and those whom do not will still only get better through pratice and experience, changing the tree will not help them.
PvE will be a lot easier though since now I will have points in ground as well as space, so thats a bonus.
I only agree to a point. Those that do well will continue to do well.
Just not 'as well'.
They may hit less harder, or be able to take less damage. When you have to spread your points out, that kind of disadvantage is unavoidable. So you can say that an experienced player will still feel the pinch. Whether or not they're skilled enough as players to adapt to it is up to the individual. But in general, you can say that a specialized player won't be as potent in his or her specialty.
It'll really suck for escorts, who need all the points they can get, especially in STF's.
If the playing field is unversally spread thin by the change then the pinch will be perceptional only as the rules of combat will have changed. That lessor perception of being able to hit hard will be seen but will be gray against the whole field hitting less hard overall.
Is the point I was trying to make. Much like when the space tree was changed in F2P, there will be a time of change that will pass and all will be as it ever was.
Comments
This is my favourite topic on the forum at present with the largest potential impact on the game.
Make a GROUND character separate from space. Yes you heard me. ADD an extra set of character slots and allow each player to make a toon that will be his ground combat persona.
Nerfing space further and making everyone a cookie-cutter template is a very bad idea. If you devs knew anything about online games you should know that the DEATH BELL of games is when replayability and uniqueness of player characters is removed and everyone in game has the exact same skill sets.
Every MMO that failed spectacularly tried that strategy and are now bad memories. Dont turn STO into that.
I only agree to a point. Those that do well will continue to do well.
Just not 'as well'.
They may hit less harder, or be able to take less damage. When you have to spread your points out, that kind of disadvantage is unavoidable. So you can say that an experienced player will still feel the pinch. Whether or not they're skilled enough as players to adapt to it is up to the individual. But in general, you can say that a specialized player won't be as potent in his or her specialty.
It'll really suck for escorts, who need all the points they can get, especially in STF's.
I play STO because, for me, it is a SPACE game. Sure, there are other space games, but STO is by far my favorite.
At the same time, I am sure that there are players that prefer ground combat, and they will also suffer from this change if it happens.
This so called "balance" is nothing more than an attempt to create "cookie-cutter" character templates. Its a terrible idea in my opinion. If I wanted to have 25% of my skills spent into ground, I would do it myself. Why not just throw out the skill tree altogether and give every player the same set of skills and equipment? Sounds ridiculous right? :rolleyes: Sadly, it seems that we are heading to cookie-cutter land. How boring. Just how far will this go before the skill tree is completely "dumbed down" ?
Wouldn't it make more sense for people to make their own decision on how they would like to play the game? Why should I be forced to waste points on skills that I care nothing for?
Instead of fixing what isn't broken, why not focus on fixing the things that are? (double shields, dual commanders, etc)
I have loved STO since beta, but I can't support this idea at all. There SHOULD be positives and negatives to how you build a character's skills. It seems to me as if some players just want to be equally good at every single aspect of the game regarless of how little sense that makes.
Plan your character, put some effort and thought into it. IF you are great at ground combat and suck in space, or vice-versa, that is on you, not the game.
What's next? Forcing "x" career class captains to fly only "x" class ships? Forcing Feds to all use phasers and Klinks use only disruptors? Sheesh! :mad:
Let us players decide where to spend our points, just as it is in every other successful MMO out there. You would never see WoW telling all their players that they have to spend X% of there skill points in "crafting" or X amount of skills in "magery". That would be stupid. Well, this idea is equally as stupid. Specializing in a skill set is what makes MMOs fun.
The problem is that you are not thinking this all the way through.
Yes, everyone will be nerfed in a similar fashion BUT how that nerf actually effects them may vary rather drastically. Let me provide some examples to give some insight.
If I fly a Cruiser and just want to Tank myself out I have plenty of Engineering skills, Device Slots, and a tough ship so even though I am loosing points I will still be relatively fine. I can still tank a lot of damage and keep myself together.
If I am flying an Escort though and need to deal massive damage in order to be effective I will find that I cannot spec into enough of those last tier space skills + the Maneuverability that is essential to keeping my cannons on target and keeping me alive for a few more seconds, +whatever few precious heals I can manage to survive. The problem is that unlike the Cruiser my ship is not so innately good at being maneuverable and deadly, especially vs. the heals I am fighting against, that I can afford to take further and further hits to these key aspects of my ships performance.
Say I am in a Science Ship and my main goal is to hold folks down with Tractors/GW and Drain down their Shields so that my friends can pop them. Am I going to have to sacrifice my mediocre maneuverability that I may well need to get a grip on those sporty Escorts? Do I have to sacrifice my Tank to be effective at my build? What will stop the enemy from just popping me on sight? Do I have to deal no damage whatsoever but have a nice tanky E-War ship? Well it will sure suck in PvE then...
I 100% agree. It does seem backwards and nonsensical. Would you not get progressively MORE benefit from spending MORE points into something? Should not your extremely skill in a particular field set you apart from others noticeably? Is that not how it really works?
Considering that was the way it was originally supposed to be and that this is WHY we have diminishing returns because they did not want the no SP cap and fully maxed Skill Tree to make you absolutely Uber: We should really either allow this or get rid of these diminishing returns for good.
What it means is that the top PvP'ers will just slowly slide more and more into the optimal build/ship/weapons and the variety in a group will slowly slide down.
I know Cryptic wants to push PvP but I have noticed that there are five types of folks in MMO's that actually PvP:
The Predators: They LOVE PvP BUT only if it is against a weaker foe who has no chance against them. If they cannot have some sort of OP advantage they are not interested.
The Strategists: They almost love the prebattle and the engineering of the perfect war machine more than the fireworks. The fireworks are just celebration for a job well done. (I'm in this camp if I am honest.) This group will PvP, possibly a lot if they have a group who is interested otherwise they will use it as a testing ground.
The Berserker: Leeeeeeeroy Jenkins!!! These guys love the BOOMS and BANGS and could care less who wins or loses so long as they create maximum carnage and take folks with them in their blaze of glory. (I love these guys, they are SO much fun.) They will PvP or PvE whatever lets them blow up the most stuff is what they are going to do.
The Professional: These people live for PvP. Think of them a bit like military. They can follow orders, they can give them if they need to, they fight with a cool head and get the job done. They enjoy a well played PvP and are not in the least scared of a challenge. If they loose it is just motivation to make themselves better for the next round.
The Uninitiated: These folks are more interested in smelling the roses than fighting really. They want good looking ships with rainbow lazors. They are more concerned about looking awesome and hopefully killing someone to prove that all their work to get everything "Just So" was worthwhile. They often will not specialize very much and do not take the time to really understand what "Works" and what does not. They want to PvP to show off but often are disheartened when they run head-long into a Predator who was just waiting to pwn them or a Strategist who utterly destroys them for their lack of planning. They can handle getting squashed by the Professionals because they are generally a bit nicer about it and may even be willing to make more of a show of it for them so it at least is interesting.
Those who do NOT PvP and who have absolutely NO interest in it can generally NOT be persueded to take part in it no matter WHAT you do to them. If you FORCE them to do it they will just leave your game because it is NOT what they want to do. They all have their reasons and all of them are perfectly valid. So making these changes are not going to suck these folks into PvP.
It will also NOT really help to make the Uninitiated more capable because they still have to contend with the Professionals who will have team-work and precision on their side and the Strategists who will have made the Silver Bullet to shoot them with and have won the fight before it even started. The Predators will be weakened initially and it will help them to avoid that humiliating loss but sooner or later they will learn from the Pros and Strategists and a whole new round of Gank The Noob will begin.
I will point out drock that THAT was your choice to build your char as a hybrid. You wanted a hybrid, and therefor made one. You could have easily made one that specializes in other areas, but you exercised "free" choice in making your character.
I build strictly ground characters. I don't like the space battles in STO, always hated them. I play the ground missions, so why should I be forced to play the game your way? Just because you want a hybrid, why should everyone else be forced to? I'm not a PvPer, more casual than anything on that side. I do more STFs and PvE, so where's your point? I never see or play with you ingame, so what's with your attitude? Even if you force some core PvPers into playing watered down characters, you will still get owned because they have the skills already honed in those areas to take down people that don't play PvP constantly in the game.
Just stating the reality of the facts, whether you like it or not. Core PvPers will always wipe up casual PvPers because that's what they practice at and continually do in the game. The only way you will get beyond that is forcing a time limit that people can play PvP to meet your "playing time". Or you can always program a system that will handicap a player, and make their ship operate at -50% efficiency to give a casual pvper a chance against them.
Because between boredom and frustration, I'll choose frustration any day.
Geko also mentioned the total amount of points may be changing so it might not even be 72750. It might be 80000 for 60k space, 20k ground or whatever.
Until we see the actual breakdown, new point values, new point costs, etc, everything is just speculation.
Because space combat is *completely going away*.. Oh, wait.. It's not. And everybody is going to have the exact same amount of points (whatever that final number ends up being) in space skills. Again, what's the point in whining until we actually, you know, see how the trees and new point values/costs works out?
And, of course, I guess well balanced Captains are 'bad' for some reason.. :rolleyes:
The day that it gets implemented, is the day that I say farewell to STO. I do not like ground combat, I chose not to play ground combat, and I chose not to waste my skill points on ground combat. Its not that space combat is going away, its just being dumbed down to better suit people who either:
A. Aren't as good at pvp (according to the OP)
or
B. Are too lazy to practice at something to get better they way many of us have
or
C. a combination of A and B (this one is the most likely I think)
When I started STO I completely sucked at pvp. Was it the games fault? Was it the skill tree's fault? No. It was my lack of practice and planning my skills. I made adjustments and I got better with time. That's the way it is SUPPOSED to be. :rolleyes:
Maybe I should've whined because ground combat was too challenging for me when STFs all required ground combat as well as space. Nah.. I had a revolutionary idea... I made a character and invested points into ground combat to run STFs if I ever want to.
The only reason I decided to stay with STO instead of TOR is that I prefer space combat. If I am going to be forced into spending points on an aspect of the game that I don't care much for, perhaps the smarter move would be to play a game with much better ground combat instead of playing STO.
It really saddens me to say this.. especially after all the times I defended STO to others since beta, but the only result here is that players will have less options, and are being forced to suit the playing style of "middle of the road" casual players that want instant gratification.
This is just another crapfest on those of us that prefer pvp and have worked hard to get better at it. Every player here has had the same choices at planning their character's skills. Those that prefer ground have spent the bulk of their points there. Those that prefer space have done likewise. Those that like both equally have spent their points accordingly as well.
What this boils down to is this : "I spent half my points in ground skills and I think I should still be as good at space pvp as those that spent all their points is space skills." What a stupid notion. To be honest, I can't believe that its even being entertained.
This would be like 2 olympic athletes competing in the olympics. Runner A spent all his time training for "X" event, which is the only event he cares about. Runner B split his training equally between "X" and "Y" events. So, in the interest of "balance" the officials decide to give runner B a head start in "X". Um yeah.. that's fair.
And being serious,forcing players in mmo is 1 step to it's grave..
+1
I can't see forcing someone to spend points in any area ending well.
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM.......
There are other games that "force" people to spend points in different things than they might want and those games do just fine.
I'd actually like to, you know, see how the skill tree *actually looks* before making a decision. Just seems to show more common sense that way.
Seriously, it makes more sense to vet the functional and business requirements of the change before it gets approved, developed and promoted to production where it will be near impossible for them to reverse because it will mean they made a mistake.
Seems to me it's common sense to catch the mistake at the earliest portion of the process than wait until the end of it after they spent all that money developing it.
I avoid ground like the plague, especially since I am at endgame and the only thing to do is borg... the borg ground missions are a true grind, doing just one sucks the life out of me. When I originally did the stfs (pre-S5) I swore I would never touch any stf again, then the revamp happened, and space stfs are fun... but im getting away from the point.
GROUND IS SUCKY
Leave my skill points right where they are, thank you!
Gee, that wouldn't be why they're going to test it on Tribble first instead of just putting it onto Holodeck, would it?
And, there's no way they're ever going to make *everybody* happy. For as many people who do want the skills split, there are likely as many who don't.
But again, I'm able to *wait and see*. After all, it was the same attitude that most people have now that got the B'Rel Retrofit nerfed into uselessness initially. The ship wasn't even in game and people were *screaming* at how OP it was and how it would ruin PvP and so on, so, the final ship they did put in was a mere shell of what it could have been, and it's never fully recovered. But no, people couldn't wait until it hit the test sever so they could try it in game. Just the description was proof enough that the ship would be game breaking, and so it was crippled from the start.
Because everybody is going to be on a level playing field?
When people think of Star Trek most of the time the first thing they think of is a Starship of some design like any of the Enterprise versions. When people think about Star Wars the first thing they think about is Jedi. Enterprise = Space, Jedi = Ground. It's pretty simple memory recall process.
What needs to happen is a seperate sets of points that are independant from the general pool that can only go into ground combat. The 75 / 25 ratio thing is " immature by design " and won't work right.
Just because you dont like ground combat dosnt mean no one wants to do it. I like ground combat, I even enjoyed it before it was improved. Now its even better.
Now that that is out of the way, I agree that the 75/25 thing is the wrong way to go about it. When the community asked to separate the ground and space skills they meant them to use seperate skill points so that people wouldnt have to sacrifice points in one or the other. Forcing people to spend them doesnt seem to be the way to go.
Exactly, and I say that as an alt-oholic myself. Also what is a ground specialist in this game? It's a character that has EVERY ground skill maxed. Sure, you are better then 99% of the other players on ground and breeze through the STFs, but against another ground "specialist" in PvP? He will have the EXACT same build. How is that not cooky cutter?
You might get less one shotten and gutted with some points in ground and get maybe less annoyed by that part of the game.
Kind regards
You do realize that it still won't be a "level playing field" even after they force us to make characters their way? You are still going to get owned by those that love PvP. Unless they program a handicap into the system to put the Core PvPer at a "degraded" efficiency against the "casual" PvPer.
This is funny. I wonder if anyone has ever ran that stats on how many shows from Star Trek were landing party episodes to just plain "space combat" episodes. Most of the shows I remember had some form of landing party beaming down to a planet.
I suppose we have to trust CaptainGeko's abilty to evaluate the feedback on his own.
You can panic now.*
Mustrum Ridcully
* Just kidding**
** Or am I? Dunh Dunh Dunh!
The only difference between what they're doing here and what many of you are asking for is that they are slim-lining the system making skill distribution more efficient and balanced, while many of you are just saying I want more skill points and I want to be able to spend them where I choose to do so, for example spending all of your skill points ranking up space skills making you superior to any other player who has decided to distribute so many skill points ranking up some ground skills.
Honestly, allowing some of you who are asking for more skill points to be added for the separate ground pool so that you can keep all of your current points in your space skills and allowing some of you who are asking to keep the ability to just skill into whatever you like so that you basically can do your best to max out in one side of the game, meaning you keep your superiority over others is just ridiculous because you'er not considering the rest of the proposal...
Which is the fact that they've reduced the total number of skills which means the required skill points to max out everything has been reduced by approximately 31%, and more importantly they will be increasing the cost of lower tier skills and reducing the cost of higher tier skills so that players have a much more viable choice when they decide to spec into a build that takes advantage of higher tier skills, because they'll be cheaper.
Also, on STOked episode 108 today, it was mentioned that CaptainGeko "is planning to get this to Tribble within a week" from Saturday (just gone) for testing purpouses, click below for more info from Cryptic Borticus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrR8B6tQ4PQ&#t=18m12s
Also, I would like more feedback on the constructive revised changes to this proposal please, I made the post on page 8, post #72 (click here).
That way if someone wants to spec in ground skills he can do it in a way that isn't diminishing his effectiveness in space.
Also 25% skill points in ground is close to nothing, especially since you don't need any points in ground to play PvE content effectively.
If you have PvP in mind again 25% is worthless since anyone who wants to PvP on ground will be fully specced and will have the appropriate traits for it meaning that someone interested in it would build his characters from scratch for it, same goes for space.
Looking at it from this point of view the players that loose the most are all of us with characters that were built for specific areas of PvP, all PvE players probably have their skills balanced already and even with the 75:25 ratio the skill point playing field is not balanced since most of the PvErs will probably stay at their 50:50 set up.
Ah, as it ever is until the penny drops.
Frankly I do not see where this will make things worse or better for PvP just more spread out.
Those whom do well in PvP will continue to do so and those whom do not will still only get better through pratice and experience, changing the tree will not help them.
PvE will be a lot easier though since now I will have points in ground as well as space, so thats a bonus.
If the playing field is unversally spread thin by the change then the pinch will be perceptional only as the rules of combat will have changed. That lessor perception of being able to hit hard will be seen but will be gray against the whole field hitting less hard overall.
Is the point I was trying to make. Much like when the space tree was changed in F2P, there will be a time of change that will pass and all will be as it ever was.