Exactly. This is why we did it. Previously, we had to effectively ding these ships a console slot to balance the fact they got a special ability. Making them a console allows us to add the console slot back in, and give the players more options on how they want to configure their ship.
Some abilities didn't make sense to turn into a console. Making the Excelsior Transwarp didn't work out partly because it is a non combat ability. Partly because it wasn't missing a console slot. It was an experiment that didn't work out so we reverted it. Some ships, like the Galaxy Dreadnought had more than one special ability, and it didn't make sense to turn them all into consoles - it would have eaten up too many of the ships slots. Making the dkyr shuttle a console just seemed odd since the shuttle was right there built into the model.
Low tier ship consoles can be moved up, but few T5 consoles can be moved around. This is partly due to balance. Not specifically because it would be dangerously unbalanced to let players use the item on another ship (although this is an issue worth considering - The enhanced battle cloak for the T5 B'rel retrofit could be dangerous in a standard T5 Raider), but more because many of the abilities just wont work on other ships. Saucer separation just doesn't work on any ship other than a galaxy (spoiler alert - we are working on making the saucer sep console work on the dreadnought), the Guramba siege javelin cant work on any other ship, nor can the ablative armor (the ablative armor is built into the intrepid costume, it is not an fx and wont work on any other ship), or the dkyr support vessel. So bottom line, if we cant make most of them work, it would be problematic to make some of them work on other ships. It also allows us to better balance some of these abilities for that specific ship without fear of unintended consequences. Overall, it was just safer and less problematic to lock them to their intended ship.
hope this helps.
Thank you for clearing this up. Personally, I'm really glad you guys went this route. A greater variety of options with a mind to balance while still maintaining faction diversity is always good. Balance is important to every aspect of the game (I feel awful for the poor NPCs who just don't stand a chance:().
Even though once innate abilities are becoming consoles they are gaining a slot in which to place them. There is no loss (except for maybe a storage slot for people not using the consoles, forcing people to buy extra bank spaces ... this is clearly a ploy to send us to the C-store!!!:eek:!).
In regards to cloaking, honestly, the Klinks are at a potential disadvantage here. Their ships have fewer options. Their cloaking handicaps are built into their ships. Once their alpha strike is through, unless they wipe out the entire team immediately, they continue to pay these penalties with none of the benefit. I'm not saying its awful, but that's something to think about.
Would be nice to give Transwarp to other ships, but definately not as the setup that was on tribble; only one console, with all options (or more, since you've added sectors since it's debut), with some manner of tangible combat benefit. The one on tribble was not worth the opportunity cost to equip.
I could see the Galaxy-X Phaser Lance, with a little coordination and work, becoming a console in the same vein as the Borg Consoles; equip the console, and the phaser lance is equipped somewhere on the ship models.
It would take more work, but configuring more ships to saucer seperate wouldn't be an impossible task. Not all, tho; Defiant, Miranda, Sabers come to mind.
The D'Kyr's power could trigger a different 'pet' model for Starfleet ships; the Galaxy class Captain's Yacht comes to mind.
(also, fix bellerophon's torpedo to work with non-photons)
These all can be some very interesting long term goals to look toward, but I can certainly understand why they aren't going to do them in the short term.
Exactly. This is why we did it. Previously, we had to effectively ding these ships a console slot to balance the fact they got a special ability. Making them a console allows us to add the console slot back in, and give the players more options on how they want to configure their ship.
Some abilities didn't make sense to turn into a console. Making the Excelsior Transwarp didn't work out partly because it is a non combat ability. Partly because it wasn't missing a console slot. It was an experiment that didn't work out so we reverted it. Some ships, like the Galaxy Dreadnought had more than one special ability, and it didn't make sense to turn them all into consoles - it would have eaten up too many of the ships slots. Making the dkyr shuttle a console just seemed odd since the shuttle was right there built into the model.
Low tier ship consoles can be moved up, but few T5 consoles can be moved around. This is partly due to balance. Not specifically because it would be dangerously unbalanced to let players use the item on another ship (although this is an issue worth considering - The enhanced battle cloak for the T5 B'rel retrofit could be dangerous in a standard T5 Raider), but more because many of the abilities just wont work on other ships. Saucer separation just doesn't work on any ship other than a galaxy (spoiler alert - we are working on making the saucer sep console work on the dreadnought), the Guramba siege javelin cant work on any other ship, nor can the ablative armor (the ablative armor is built into the intrepid costume, it is not an fx and wont work on any other ship), or the dkyr support vessel. So bottom line, if we cant make most of them work, it would be problematic to make some of them work on other ships. It also allows us to better balance some of these abilities for that specific ship without fear of unintended consequences. Overall, it was just safer and less problematic to lock them to their intended ship.
hope this helps.
We completely understand what you are saying about "flexibility" ... yet when the skill tree no longer has certain abilities ... and the consoles no longer do some of the thing that they use to do .. then the only conclusions that we are left to make is that we are no longer able to "resist" "heal" or "counter" what we might run into (wheather PvP or PvE).
It simply might be that the "matrix" is still incomplete or that some of the items we need are so rare (or actually VERY rare that no oner has them ????
I wish I had some of the specfics at my finger tips but as I was unable to copy one of my upper level toons over I'm still at Lt Commander. (That's not a bad thing .. just saying that some of what I have is limited information at best.)
I hope this makes sense. It should never be taken as a rant.
In regards to cloaking, honestly, the Klinks are at a potential disadvantage here. Their ships have fewer options. Their cloaking handicaps are built into their ships. Once their alpha strike is through, unless they wipe out the entire team immediately, they continue to pay these penalties with none of the benefit. I'm not saying its awful, but that's something to think about.
What disadvantages? I play Klingon when I want PvP easy mode.
Is it their cruisers which have more hull, shields, 2.5x crew and 50% faster turn rate with the same consoles and officer slots WHILE having a built in cloak? Is that the disadvantage?
Is it the BOP that can utilize any combination of officer layouts, bypassing officer types that are not that useful to a concept. Also being able to break out of battle with the built in battle cloak, engaging at will? Is that the disadvantage?
The raptor,.. this may be the only ship close to balanced....and that is why the klingon faction whines about it.
Carriers,... Well, I hope I am making my point by now.
Sorry, but the TACTICAL advantages the klingon faction can maintain must also be factored in. Hull and shield losses amount to a few seconds of survivability in the BOP. Selecting EXACTLY the officers you want adds massive tactical advantages that more than counter this. Then add in the ability to disengage at will with the battle cloak...yeah....So if the bird of prey is the weak link here, I don't think I will shed any tears soon.
Klingons are not hurting. I grow weary of this argument being posted all over the place. The truth is the opposite.
I get the point you are trying to make I just don't agree with you. I'm not suggesting that they are horribly disadvantaged in any way. I'm just saying that there are trade offs, sacrifices, that people fail to take into consideration because ignoring them suits their own skewed view of things;). Kind of like how some people think that self important zombie cruisers are the bees knees.
One day people will learn to play and understand that Klinks aren't over powered:). But that isn't the main point here.
My issue with consoles is that to be honest for 800+ C Points all your getting is a console. To be honest a lot of these ship costumes that are coming out I find ugly and not even Star Trek looking. For example the BoP with the subspace jump console is just plain ugly and barely resembles a bird of prey. One option is to maybe cut it in half if you do not want the ugly costume say 400 for the console and 400 for the art then you'll see what people really want.
I get the point you are trying to make I just don't agree with you. I'm not suggesting that they are horribly disadvantaged in any way. I'm just saying that there are trade offs, sacrifices, that people fail to take into consideration because ignoring them suits their own skewed view of things;). Kind of like how some people think that self important zombie cruisers who think they are the bees knees.
One day people will learn to play and understand that Klinks aren't over powered:). But that isn't the main point here.
Sorry, I know how to play. And while I appreciate your attempt at a personal attack ( a tactic when you have nothing legitimate to actually say ), you don't understand what role I perform in a team. My fleet understands it and we work well together. I don't EVER need your assessment of how to play a cruiser. You or anybody else for that matter.
Just the Klingon cruiser stats alone more than prove my point. Tell you what.. bring the Klingon cruisers down to the same stats as fed cruisers or bring the fed cruisers up to the Klingon level and we will hear the QQ'ing all across the galaxy... but mostly from the Klingon side.
I am taking the trade off's into consideration. I even listed them. They can only be an issue, if you ignore the massive gains you get from the minor losses.
I don't even know what you are talking about. I was merely commenting on the suggestion that Klinks are some how overpowered which, in my opinion, is the perception of someone who doesn't actually know how to play. Personally, I have a harder time with good Feds than equally skilled Klinks. Similarly, Zombie Feds Cruisers are more problematic than Zombie Klink Cruisers (although zombies in general are bad, mmmkay).
I don't even know what you are talking about. I was merely commenting on the suggestion that Klinks are some how overpowered which, in my opinion, is the perception of someone who doesn't actually know how to play. Personally, I have a harder time with good Feds than equally skilled Klinks. Similarly, Zombie Feds Cruisers are more problematic than Zombie Klink Cruisers (although zombies in general are bad, mmmkay).
Yes, while I appreciate your perception of my lack of play ability, I do indeed play both factions. There are massive advantages that you have still not even acknowledged. Let's start with the cruisers. Do you think the differences I listed = balance. Please answer this one honestly.
If you do find it to be an imbalance, in the klingon favor, I have proved my point just here alone
If you don't, we have nothing left to say.
A zombie cruiser is a cruiser who does no damage and does not contribute in any way to a team, only interested in self survival. What I do is strip shields, hold them in place with Tractor Beams, extend shields 3 or Eject warp plasma 3 depending on my teammates ( I ask which they would prefer before a match depending on the team makeup ) all while maintaining high survivability that keeps the healer free to keep the escorts alive. Furthermore the build makes me 80% of the time immune to disables or stuns, allowing my extends and tractor beams to hold in place through what would normally disable these abilities, making them more effective.
If I do you win, if I don't I lose? That hardly seems like a balanced engagement so I'm afraid I do not agree with the parameters of your arrangement:p.
There are significant advantages and disadvantages with any numbers of counters. Your definition of a zombie is pretty good though. At least we have that. Otherwise I'm not sure why you are taking such offense.
Exactly. This is why we did it. Previously, we had to effectively ding these ships a console slot to balance the fact they got a special ability. Making them a console allows us to add the console slot back in, and give the players more options on how they want to configure their ship.
Some abilities didn't make sense to turn into a console. Making the Excelsior Transwarp didn't work out partly because it is a non combat ability. Partly because it wasn't missing a console slot. It was an experiment that didn't work out so we reverted it. Some ships, like the Galaxy Dreadnought had more than one special ability, and it didn't make sense to turn them all into consoles - it would have eaten up too many of the ships slots. Making the dkyr shuttle a console just seemed odd since the shuttle was right there built into the model.
Low tier ship consoles can be moved up, but few T5 consoles can be moved around. This is partly due to balance. Not specifically because it would be dangerously unbalanced to let players use the item on another ship (although this is an issue worth considering - The enhanced battle cloak for the T5 B'rel retrofit could be dangerous in a standard T5 Raider), but more because many of the abilities just wont work on other ships. Saucer separation just doesn't work on any ship other than a galaxy (spoiler alert - we are working on making the saucer sep console work on the dreadnought), the Guramba siege javelin cant work on any other ship, nor can the ablative armor (the ablative armor is built into the intrepid costume, it is not an fx and wont work on any other ship), or the dkyr support vessel. So bottom line, if we cant make most of them work, it would be problematic to make some of them work on other ships. It also allows us to better balance some of these abilities for that specific ship without fear of unintended consequences. Overall, it was just safer and less problematic to lock them to their intended ship.
hope this helps.
I still think Excelsior needs to lose a console slot to compensate for the +1 turn rate.
If I do you win, if I don't I lose? That hardly seems like a balanced engagement so I'm afraid I do not agree with the parameters of your arrangement:p.
There are significant advantages and disadvantages with any numbers of counters. Your definition of a zombie is pretty good though. At least we have that. Otherwise I'm not sure why you are taking such offense.
So you will not answer my question then.
Winning or losing aside, do you think klingon cruisers are balanced with fed cruisers. If so, how? The federation strength was always it cruisers. Here in STO, Klingons have better cruisers and their ships have better tactical options overall.
I am taking offense, because I find the idea that apparently only morons look at the tactical differences of the 2 factions and can see glaring imbalances across the board. Apparently only geniuses that are the aces of the sky think that the factions have great balance and everything is ok.
It simply is not. I originally rolled my klingon characters to better understand my enemy. Within minutes I could feel the difference.. in all classes of ships. It was massive. It felt like I was flying ships 1 tier higher than I should have been flying.
Does that mean that by me flying a klingon ship, I suddenly became more skilled? Or does it mean that the ships are simply better?
I doubt I suddenly lose ability, when I play my federation characters. I find that to be ridiculous. Klingon ships have so many more build options (Thinking BOP here) that the tactical benefits massively outweigh the losses. Every person I play with knows this to be true. We have all played klingons. We find it easy sauce. There really is a difference.
Tactical differences are harder to measure, because there are no hard numbers. But you know those tactical differences make for a much nastier opponent than the loss of a few hull and shield points.. aka 2 seconds difference of survivability.
I believe I answered your question, its just doesn't jive with your own view. Not everything is black and white. I've often found that I had an easier time when I fly Klink side too. I, however, realize that his difference has more to do with the people that I'm flying with over there than myself or the ship load out.
Why is my marauder losing its current power on holodeck, and getting a stupid gimped marauder force console??
Its not even the same power, the new console provided is just a boarding party abiility that has nothing to do with the original power! :mad:
Saucer separation just doesn't work on any ship other than a galaxy (spoiler alert - we are working on making the saucer sep console work on the dreadnought)
One -- You owe me a new Keyboard...
Two -- This is awesome! I just ground out 500 emblems to get the Gal-R (I'm collecting cruisers) but I prefer my Gal-X and would love to add Saucer Sep to my arsenal! So the ship I just spent the emblems on won't be just sitting in my drydock. It'll be actually contributing!
You know, since the majority seems to dislike this console idea, I guess the best thing to do would be put the ships back like they were. Let everyone lose that extra console slot and just have the innate abilities..
People can't be pleased.
And FYI, balance in PvE does matter. Without it, you end up sucking the fun out of the game because there is no challenge at all, and then people move on to a new game because there is nothing here that challenges them. Or worse they go to PvP and whine constantly about how they can't do anything because they are used to being so imbalanced in PvE.
When you want to talk about balance among the factions, you have to consider the "console" abilities of the Feds vs KDF as well. In comparsion, the KDF T5 ships get rather crappy abilities in comparison to the FED side. This is part of the balance as well. You can argue that if you want, but my Garumba can't cloak, the Dread can. Repair platfrom vs Ablative shielding? Interceptors vs MVA?
Come on. The bird of Prey does have battle cloak, but it has to give up a BO slot to get it.
I always find it funny when people complain about the LDF being so overpowered in comparison.
THey really aren't. They are stronger in some areas and weaker in others. Maybe the KDF does have a little better crusiers, on paper. That cloak is worthless in combat. You don't get superior escort support like the FED does. KDF have only a single Science ship.
Sure...the KDF are so overpowered.
A BoP doesn't take the place of an Escort. Raptors are pretty much useless ships. They don't do anything well except die. Lack of Science ships means healing is left up to Cruisers, or BoP's which are extremely fragile in comparison.
If you really want to harp all day about KDF cruisers being so much better, then fine. I am all for pulling FED cruisers up to KDF as you suggest, but we need to pull the rest of the KDF ships up to match the FED counterparts....which means giving the KDF a counterpart like some Science ships.
The sides are never going to be perfectly balanced as long as they are completely different. But they should be this different. There are just as many weaknesses as strengths on each side. FEDs get all those fancy special ship abilities, KDF get a cloak. FEDs get several Escorts designed to kill ships in seconds, KDF gets...a raptor. FEDs get the high tech science ships with built in abilities like subsystem targeting, KDF get Carriers. The BoP is it's own thing, it can be fit to do many roles, but in the end it doesn't do them as well as the FED type ship.
I have played both sides in PvP, flown every type of ship extensively.
My MVAE can eat any Raptor and most BoP's with ease.
My Carrier is hard to kill by anything that isn't Science, but I can't kill them either.
My BoP can hurt anything but a Cruiser, given I get a sneak attack and they have no dedicated healer. Otherwise it's just harrassment and misdirection of their attention.
My Science ships, both tbe Dyk and the Intrepid-R are virtually unkillable, but I deal little damage to anyone. Or i hit hard AOE with Wells and Rifts...but have to fly around in a paper airplane.
1 on 1, my Dreadnaught beats a Garumba everytime...without it being even close.
I still fly my Sov on FED side too, simply because it takes a combined effort of KDF ships to destroy it, and I can usually still take one of them with me.
FYI, I play KDF more than FED. Always have, and always will. Truth be told, I win far more matches on KDF side, but that isn't because of the ships. It's because FED players don't really do much PvP. They don't have to, they have plenty of things to do. KDF, it's all they have. They are much better at PvP than FED players.
9 out of 10 times on FED side you will end up with 1/3 of your team who has no clue what they are doing in PvP. In dedicated teams, FEDs have no reason not to win unless they get out played. KDF have always been better at PvP beacuse it is what they "grew" up doing. Only recently have the KDF had ways to level up that wasn't built around PvP. And they still don't have much of that.
Of course they will be better at it when that is all they do. FED players have always cried foul of the KDF being overpowered. Those same FED players can come over to KDF side and play, and they lose...and they dont' understand how. KDF have taken nerf after nerf to their ships. They have watched the FEDs get new ships with fancy powers. The KDF get nothing. Not even new costumes.
If the KDF dominate PvP, which isn't entirely true, it's all they got. People tend to become good at things when they do it all the time.
Come on. The bird of Prey does have battle cloak, but it has to give up a BO slot to get it.
and Hull and Shields as well. Those are the things lessened to make up for U-slots and a BC.
I always find it funny when people complain about the KDF being so overpowered in comparison.
THey really aren't. They are stronger in some areas and weaker in others. Maybe the KDF does have a little better crusiers, on paper. That cloak is worthless in combat. You don't get superior escort support like the FED does. KDF have only a single Science ship.
Sure...the KDF are so overpowered.
A BoP doesn't take the place of an Escort. Raptors are pretty much useless ships. They don't do anything well except die. Lack of Science ships means healing is left up to Cruisers, or BoP's which are extremely fragile in comparison.
If you really want to harp all day about KDF cruisers being so much better, then fine. I am all for pulling FED cruisers up to KDF as you suggest, but we need to pull the rest of the KDF ships up to match the FED counterparts....which means giving the KDF a counterpart like some Science ships.
The sides are never going to be perfectly balanced as long as they are completely different. But they should be this different. There are just as many weaknesses as strengths on each side. FEDs get all those fancy special ship abilities, KDF get a cloak. FEDs get several Escorts designed to kill ships in seconds, KDF gets...a raptor. FEDs get the high tech science ships with built in abilities like subsystem targeting, KDF get Carriers. The BoP is it's own thing, it can be fit to do many roles, but in the end it doesn't do them as well as the FED type ship.
I have played both sides in PvP, flown every type of ship extensively.
My MVAE can eat any Raptor and most BoP's with ease.
My Carrier is hard to kill by anything that isn't Science, but I can't kill them either.
My BoP can hurt anything but a Cruiser, given I get a sneak attack and they have no dedicated healer. Otherwise it's just harrassment and misdirection of their attention.
My Science ships, both tbe Dyk and the Intrepid-R are virtually unkillable, but I deal little damage to anyone. Or i hit hard AOE with Wells and Rifts...but have to fly around in a paper airplane.
1 on 1, my Dreadnaught beats a Garumba everytime...without it being even close.
I still fly my Sov on FED side too, simply because it takes a combined effort of KDF ships to destroy it, and I can usually still take one of them with me.
FYI, I play KDF more than FED. Always have, and always will. Truth be told, I win far more matches on KDF side, but that isn't because of the ships. It's because FED players don't really do much PvP. They don't have to, they have plenty of things to do. KDF, it's all they have. They are much better at PvP than FED players.
9 out of 10 times on FED side you will end up with 1/3 of your team who has no clue what they are doing in PvP. In dedicated teams, FEDs have no reason not to win unless they get out played. KDF have always been better at PvP beacuse it is what they "grew" up doing. Only recently have the KDF had ways to level up that wasn't built around PvP. And they still don't have much of that.
Of course they will be better at it when that is all they do. FED players have always cried foul of the KDF being overpowered. Those same FED players can come over to KDF side and play, and they lose...and they dont' understand how. KDF have taken nerf after nerf to their ships. They have watched the FEDs get new ships with fancy powers. The KDF get nothing. Not even new costumes.
If the KDF dominate PvP, which isn't entirely true, it's all they got. People tend to become good at things when they do it all the time.
Those that harp on the OP nature of the KDF have feditis, a debilitating affliction that makes one think they should perform better than they do becuase they are the focus of the genre. See Plot Armor, Plot Weapons, etc.
Its a fallacy of thought to think the KDF is OP in comparison to the feds.
QUOTE=Jaruslothran;3861933]What disadvantages? I play Klingon when I want PvP easy mode.
Its the Players not the people that make PvP seem easier for a Klink.
Is it their cruisers which have more hull, shields, 2.5x crew and 50% faster turn rate with the same consoles and officer slots WHILE having a built in cloak? Is that the disadvantage?
We do have more Hull than the Fed vessels on average with only 2 battle Cruisers hitting the 39k mark that is the average for high fed cruisers and 1 (VoQ) surpassing that mark.
Is it the BOP that can utilize any combination of officer layouts, bypassing officer types that are not that useful to a concept. Also being able to break out of battle with the built in battle cloak, engaging at will? Is that the disadvantage?
No the BoP is near perfect reflection of the vesel from the genre. A balanced raider platform that can pack a punch when crewed right and is still so squishy that prolonged combat against a superior foe or numbers is suicide. Hell, even if as low outnumbered 2 cruisers to 1 the BoP is at a disadvantage, as it should be.
This jealousy of the squishiest vessel in the game is still silly and unfounded and has existed from the begining of the KDF ingame for no good reason.
The raptor,.. this may be the only ship close to balanced....and that is why the klingon faction whines about it.
The big gun that can't point straight. Sure it packs a punch and shares the same layout of the Defiant R, but that turn/pivot point is the only complainst I've seen of its performance.
Carriers,... Well, I hope I am making my point by now.
Not even remotely in my opinion.
Sorry, but the TACTICAL advantages the klingon faction can maintain must also be factored in. Hull and shield losses amount to a few seconds of survivability in the BOP.
Wrong, Once the resists go on CD and the buffing is on CD the BoP is a skeet and dies just as quickly. Why do you think we KDF players constantly say the best use of a BoP is in flight wings of 3?
Selecting EXACTLY the officers you want adds massive tactical advantages that more than counter this. Then add in the ability to disengage at will with the battle cloak...yeah....So if the bird of prey is the weak link here, I don't think I will shed any tears soon.
and nobody is asking you too. The BoP pays for all its advantages and those advanatges do not gaurauntee its effectivness and that is the reason it has been untouched as a vessel since day one, recieving niether a direct buff or debuffto its design.
Klingons are not hurting. I grow weary of this argument being posted all over the place. The truth is the opposite.
We are hurting in meaningful Content to play and enjoyment thats designed to our faction. The truth is not what you think it is.
Saucer separation just doesn't work on any ship other than a galaxy (spoiler alert - we are working on making the saucer sep console work on the dreadnought)
it has the advantage, that one that likes the gealaxy retro doesnt HAVE to use the saucer sep, and intead gains a +sciconsole. totally okay for me.
there is a simple reason, why these consoles arent useable on oother ships. cause they dont have MVAM or SaucerSep or a cloak. these changes were made JUST for one reason: to get rid of them without loosing the benefit from a retrofit. you still gain one console mod slot.
Saucer separation just doesn't work on any ship other than a galaxy (spoiler alert - we are working on making the saucer sep console work on the dreadnought)
there might as well not be a galaxy R anymore then. its the worst at cruiser related duties, and there will be nothing unique about it.
im really tired of this issue being ignored by the devs, unlike the nonsensical excelsior complaining that caused its console rollback. one of your premium ships, the galaxy R of course, niche is that its the worst choice among cruiser
the galaxy R has everything working against it in this game. its new 9th console is nothing but an ability console dump location, its station setup doesn't help it heal or dps better then other cruisers, its innate movement ability is the worst by far, and its unique ability strips durability for maneuverability and does basically nothing to increase dps, despite its intention of being an enhanced tactical mode.
if the galaxy X is going to get to use saucer separation too, then the galaxy R and galaxy X should just merge into 1 premium ship.
with this change, the lance along with the 3rd nacelle should became a console too, in addition to the current cloaking console. the visuals of the 3rd nacelle, lance and the use of duel cannons should be linked to the new lance console too, just like the borg visuals are linked to the borg set pieces.
the end result should be a galaxy X/R with 4 engineering, 2 science, and 3 tactical consoles with a universal ensign station instead of ether an engineering or tactical station. its special consoles would be the cloak console, lance and nacelle console and separation console.
if people have bought both the galaxy R and X, give them 1600 c points, that's what both cost now. seriously, something like this needs to happen, there are to many galaxy variants, and one is terrible wile the other keeps getting better.
there might as well not be a galaxy R anymore then. its the worst at cruiser related duties, and there will be nothing unique about it.
im really tired of this issue being ignored by the devs, unlike the nonsensical excelsior complaining that caused its console rollback. one of your premium ships, the galaxy R of course, niche is that its the worst choice among cruiser
the galaxy R has everything working against it in this game. its new 9th console is nothing but an ability console dump location, its station setup doesn't help it heal or dps better then other cruisers, its innate movement ability is the worst by far, and its unique ability strips durability for maneuverability and does basically nothing to increase dps, despite its intention of being an enhanced tactical mode.
if the galaxy X is going to get to use saucer separation too, then the galaxy R and galaxy X should just merge into 1 premium ship.
with this change, the lance along with the 3rd nacelle should became a console too, in addition to the current cloaking console. the visuals of the 3rd nacelle, lance and the use of duel cannons should be linked to the new lance console too, just like the borg visuals are linked to the borg set pieces.
the end result should be a galaxy X/R with 4 engineering, 2 science, and 3 tactical consoles with a universal ensign station instead of ether an engineering or tactical station. its special consoles would be the cloak console, lance and nacelle console and separation console.
if people have bought both the galaxy R and X, give them 1600 c points, that's what both cost now. seriously, something like this needs to happen, there are to many galaxy variants, and one is terrible wile the other keeps getting better.
This is a well thought out and reasoned argument. I'm am absolutely in agreement with it, but if the devs do not implement it, I really, really do want the saucer separation for my Dreadnought.
Honestly you are correct. The excelsior is the only cruiser that gains on the fed side.. and loses nothing.
Then again,.. it is still not even close to a Klingon cruiser. So instead, why don't we just raise up the rest of the fed cruisers to compensate.
That makes more sense to me.
Not only that, but Excel also has better tac BO. You can do so much more with the single ltcdr tac than you can with just an ensign and a lt on the free assault cruiser. (like being able to have both decent cannon and torp abilities). Even if someone says "well a +1 by itself doesn't mean it's OP", then consider the BO layout too. Every other T5 cruiser that has bonuses do not have both bonuses in tac with 0 drawbacks (Gal-X for example has lost a ens eng for the phaser lance, which comes with a 3min CD; free star cruiser has the same as galaxy except has an extra ens sci BO; the Gal-R is hardly even worth buying because the only thing it gains is saucer sep).
there might as well not be a galaxy R anymore then. its the worst at cruiser related duties, and there will be nothing unique about it.
im really tired of this issue being ignored by the devs, unlike the nonsensical excelsior complaining that caused its console rollback. one of your premium ships, the galaxy R of course, niche is that its the worst choice among cruiser
the galaxy R has everything working against it in this game. its new 9th console is nothing but an ability console dump location, its station setup doesn't help it heal or dps better then other cruisers, its innate movement ability is the worst by far, and its unique ability strips durability for maneuverability and does basically nothing to increase dps, despite its intention of being an enhanced tactical mode.
if the galaxy X is going to get to use saucer separation too, then the galaxy R and galaxy X should just merge into 1 premium ship.
with this change, the lance along with the 3rd nacelle should became a console too, in addition to the current cloaking console. the visuals of the 3rd nacelle, lance and the use of duel cannons should be linked to the new lance console too, just like the borg visuals are linked to the borg set pieces.
the end result should be a galaxy X/R with 4 engineering, 2 science, and 3 tactical consoles with a universal ensign station instead of ether an engineering or tactical station. its special consoles would be the cloak console, lance and nacelle console and separation console.
if people have bought both the galaxy R and X, give them 1600 c points, that's what both cost now. seriously, something like this needs to happen, there are to many galaxy variants, and one is terrible wile the other keeps getting better.
So a Third Console slot, especially one that can boost Shield Emitters, is useless to a cruiser?
Also, assuming that you have a 4x EPtX setup for constant power in 2 systems, you can slot Engy Team 1, Aux to Sif 2 or 3, Extend Shields 2 or 3, and Aceton Field 1 or 3 (obviously only taking one of the level 3 powers). That's good healing and damage dealing.
Exactly. This is why we did it. Previously, we had to effectively ding these ships a console slot to balance the fact they got a special ability. Making them a console allows us to add the console slot back in, and give the players more options on how they want to configure their ship.
Some abilities didn't make sense to turn into a console. Making the Excelsior Transwarp didn't work out partly because it is a non combat ability. Partly because it wasn't missing a console slot. It was an experiment that didn't work out so we reverted it. Some ships, like the Galaxy Dreadnought had more than one special ability, and it didn't make sense to turn them all into consoles - it would have eaten up too many of the ships slots. Making the dkyr shuttle a console just seemed odd since the shuttle was right there built into the model.
Low tier ship consoles can be moved up, but few T5 consoles can be moved around. This is partly due to balance. Not specifically because it would be dangerously unbalanced to let players use the item on another ship (although this is an issue worth considering - The enhanced battle cloak for the T5 B'rel retrofit could be dangerous in a standard T5 Raider), but more because many of the abilities just wont work on other ships. Saucer separation just doesn't work on any ship other than a galaxy (spoiler alert - we are working on making the saucer sep console work on the dreadnought), the Guramba siege javelin cant work on any other ship, nor can the ablative armor (the ablative armor is built into the intrepid costume, it is not an fx and wont work on any other ship), or the dkyr support vessel. So bottom line, if we cant make most of them work, it would be problematic to make some of them work on other ships. It also allows us to better balance some of these abilities for that specific ship without fear of unintended consequences. Overall, it was just safer and less problematic to lock them to their intended ship.
hope this helps.
i dont mean to be too cannon, but u need to look this vid over...saucer seperation on the galaxy x would be vertually impossible because it would tear the ship apart...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0R0mdEP5fc
This is a well thought out and reasoned argument. I'm am absolutely in agreement with it, but if the devs do not implement it, I really, really do want the saucer separation for my Dreadnought.
thanks, its really unacceptable how poorly they setup the stats the galaxy R, you nerf yourself and your team if you use it.
if people have bought both the galaxy R and X, give them 1600 c points, that's what both cost now. seriously, something like this needs to happen, there are to many galaxy variants, and one is terrible wile the other keeps getting better.
So a Third Console slot, especially one that can boost Shield Emitters, is useless to a cruiser?
Also, assuming that you have a 4x EPtX setup for constant power in 2 systems, you can slot Engy Team 1, Aux to Sif 2 or 3, Extend Shields 2 or 3, and Aceton Field 1 or 3 (obviously only taking one of the level 3 powers). That's good healing and damage dealing.
the point is you would be better off with a star cruiser if you wanted to heal, with its ensign science you could slot HE instead of ET and run into less global cooldown issues. what if you had ET 3 too or you were getting alpha'ed and needed TT to save yourself? both would be cooling down and the galaxy R would die and the star cruiser would have lived. that many engineering powers ties you down with too many global cooldows to function as well as any other cruiser choice.
and damage? again a star cruiser has the potential to be more offensively dangerous too. they have the same number of tactical consoles and 3 sci powers can cause more trouble to your opponent then 2 sci powers and an engineering power. so even the star cruiser is more dangerous then the galaxy R, not to mention the sovereign, galaxy X and excelsior.
the point is you would be better off with a star cruiser if you wanted to heal, with its ensign science you could slot HE instead of ET and run into less global cooldown issues. what if you had ET 3 too or you were getting alpha'ed and needed TT to save yourself? both would be cooling down and the galaxy R would die and the star cruiser would have lived. that many engineering powers ties you down with too many global cooldows to function as well as any other cruiser choice.
and damage? again a star cruiser has the potential to be more offensively dangerous too. they have the same number of tactical consoles and 3 sci powers can cause more trouble to your opponent then 2 sci powers and an engineering power. so even the star cruiser is more dangerous then the galaxy R, not to mention the sovereign, galaxy X and excelsior.
the poor galaxy R flatly sucks.
I see your points. They tie into the underlying issues of making ships individual entities instead of a costume. IMO, there should be certain T5 Boff/Console setups, and you can attach whatever ship skin you like to it (or from a specific range of skins if you want to avoid issues like "That Galaxy is really an escort, and it threw me off guard").
EDIT: A Star Cruiser would be better at self healing, and the Galaxy-R at team healing (since the Gal-R could slot all of its healing powers plus the newly revamped AF + both Sci healing powers).
Comments
Thank you for clearing this up. Personally, I'm really glad you guys went this route. A greater variety of options with a mind to balance while still maintaining faction diversity is always good. Balance is important to every aspect of the game (I feel awful for the poor NPCs who just don't stand a chance:().
Even though once innate abilities are becoming consoles they are gaining a slot in which to place them. There is no loss (except for maybe a storage slot for people not using the consoles, forcing people to buy extra bank spaces ... this is clearly a ploy to send us to the C-store!!!:eek:!).
In regards to cloaking, honestly, the Klinks are at a potential disadvantage here. Their ships have fewer options. Their cloaking handicaps are built into their ships. Once their alpha strike is through, unless they wipe out the entire team immediately, they continue to pay these penalties with none of the benefit. I'm not saying its awful, but that's something to think about.
These all can be some very interesting long term goals to look toward, but I can certainly understand why they aren't going to do them in the short term.
We completely understand what you are saying about "flexibility" ... yet when the skill tree no longer has certain abilities ... and the consoles no longer do some of the thing that they use to do .. then the only conclusions that we are left to make is that we are no longer able to "resist" "heal" or "counter" what we might run into (wheather PvP or PvE).
It simply might be that the "matrix" is still incomplete or that some of the items we need are so rare (or actually VERY rare that no oner has them ????
I wish I had some of the specfics at my finger tips but as I was unable to copy one of my upper level toons over I'm still at Lt Commander. (That's not a bad thing .. just saying that some of what I have is limited information at best.)
I hope this makes sense. It should never be taken as a rant.
What disadvantages? I play Klingon when I want PvP easy mode.
Is it their cruisers which have more hull, shields, 2.5x crew and 50% faster turn rate with the same consoles and officer slots WHILE having a built in cloak? Is that the disadvantage?
Is it the BOP that can utilize any combination of officer layouts, bypassing officer types that are not that useful to a concept. Also being able to break out of battle with the built in battle cloak, engaging at will? Is that the disadvantage?
The raptor,.. this may be the only ship close to balanced....and that is why the klingon faction whines about it.
Carriers,... Well, I hope I am making my point by now.
Sorry, but the TACTICAL advantages the klingon faction can maintain must also be factored in. Hull and shield losses amount to a few seconds of survivability in the BOP. Selecting EXACTLY the officers you want adds massive tactical advantages that more than counter this. Then add in the ability to disengage at will with the battle cloak...yeah....So if the bird of prey is the weak link here, I don't think I will shed any tears soon.
Klingons are not hurting. I grow weary of this argument being posted all over the place. The truth is the opposite.
One day people will learn to play and understand that Klinks aren't over powered:). But that isn't the main point here.
Sorry, I know how to play. And while I appreciate your attempt at a personal attack ( a tactic when you have nothing legitimate to actually say ), you don't understand what role I perform in a team. My fleet understands it and we work well together. I don't EVER need your assessment of how to play a cruiser. You or anybody else for that matter.
Just the Klingon cruiser stats alone more than prove my point. Tell you what.. bring the Klingon cruisers down to the same stats as fed cruisers or bring the fed cruisers up to the Klingon level and we will hear the QQ'ing all across the galaxy... but mostly from the Klingon side.
I am taking the trade off's into consideration. I even listed them. They can only be an issue, if you ignore the massive gains you get from the minor losses.
Yes, while I appreciate your perception of my lack of play ability, I do indeed play both factions. There are massive advantages that you have still not even acknowledged. Let's start with the cruisers. Do you think the differences I listed = balance. Please answer this one honestly.
If you do find it to be an imbalance, in the klingon favor, I have proved my point just here alone
If you don't, we have nothing left to say.
A zombie cruiser is a cruiser who does no damage and does not contribute in any way to a team, only interested in self survival. What I do is strip shields, hold them in place with Tractor Beams, extend shields 3 or Eject warp plasma 3 depending on my teammates ( I ask which they would prefer before a match depending on the team makeup ) all while maintaining high survivability that keeps the healer free to keep the escorts alive. Furthermore the build makes me 80% of the time immune to disables or stuns, allowing my extends and tractor beams to hold in place through what would normally disable these abilities, making them more effective.
That is not a zombie.
Now, back to the question above.
Will you answer it honestly?
There are significant advantages and disadvantages with any numbers of counters. Your definition of a zombie is pretty good though. At least we have that. Otherwise I'm not sure why you are taking such offense.
I still think Excelsior needs to lose a console slot to compensate for the +1 turn rate.
So you will not answer my question then.
Winning or losing aside, do you think klingon cruisers are balanced with fed cruisers. If so, how? The federation strength was always it cruisers. Here in STO, Klingons have better cruisers and their ships have better tactical options overall.
I am taking offense, because I find the idea that apparently only morons look at the tactical differences of the 2 factions and can see glaring imbalances across the board. Apparently only geniuses that are the aces of the sky think that the factions have great balance and everything is ok.
It simply is not. I originally rolled my klingon characters to better understand my enemy. Within minutes I could feel the difference.. in all classes of ships. It was massive. It felt like I was flying ships 1 tier higher than I should have been flying.
Does that mean that by me flying a klingon ship, I suddenly became more skilled? Or does it mean that the ships are simply better?
I doubt I suddenly lose ability, when I play my federation characters. I find that to be ridiculous. Klingon ships have so many more build options (Thinking BOP here) that the tactical benefits massively outweigh the losses. Every person I play with knows this to be true. We have all played klingons. We find it easy sauce. There really is a difference.
Tactical differences are harder to measure, because there are no hard numbers. But you know those tactical differences make for a much nastier opponent than the loss of a few hull and shield points.. aka 2 seconds difference of survivability.
Off to work, I will read your response later.
Or a battery slot would make more sense.
Honestly you are correct. The excelsior is the only cruiser that gains on the fed side.. and loses nothing.
Then again,.. it is still not even close to a Klingon cruiser. So instead, why don't we just raise up the rest of the fed cruisers to compensate.
That makes more sense to me.
Its not even the same power, the new console provided is just a boarding party abiility that has nothing to do with the original power! :mad:
One -- You owe me a new Keyboard...
Two -- This is awesome! I just ground out 500 emblems to get the Gal-R (I'm collecting cruisers) but I prefer my Gal-X and would love to add Saucer Sep to my arsenal! So the ship I just spent the emblems on won't be just sitting in my drydock. It'll be actually contributing!
Thanks for the spoiler!
People can't be pleased.
And FYI, balance in PvE does matter. Without it, you end up sucking the fun out of the game because there is no challenge at all, and then people move on to a new game because there is nothing here that challenges them. Or worse they go to PvP and whine constantly about how they can't do anything because they are used to being so imbalanced in PvE.
When you want to talk about balance among the factions, you have to consider the "console" abilities of the Feds vs KDF as well. In comparsion, the KDF T5 ships get rather crappy abilities in comparison to the FED side. This is part of the balance as well. You can argue that if you want, but my Garumba can't cloak, the Dread can. Repair platfrom vs Ablative shielding? Interceptors vs MVA?
Come on. The bird of Prey does have battle cloak, but it has to give up a BO slot to get it.
I always find it funny when people complain about the LDF being so overpowered in comparison.
THey really aren't. They are stronger in some areas and weaker in others. Maybe the KDF does have a little better crusiers, on paper. That cloak is worthless in combat. You don't get superior escort support like the FED does. KDF have only a single Science ship.
Sure...the KDF are so overpowered.
A BoP doesn't take the place of an Escort. Raptors are pretty much useless ships. They don't do anything well except die. Lack of Science ships means healing is left up to Cruisers, or BoP's which are extremely fragile in comparison.
If you really want to harp all day about KDF cruisers being so much better, then fine. I am all for pulling FED cruisers up to KDF as you suggest, but we need to pull the rest of the KDF ships up to match the FED counterparts....which means giving the KDF a counterpart like some Science ships.
The sides are never going to be perfectly balanced as long as they are completely different. But they should be this different. There are just as many weaknesses as strengths on each side. FEDs get all those fancy special ship abilities, KDF get a cloak. FEDs get several Escorts designed to kill ships in seconds, KDF gets...a raptor. FEDs get the high tech science ships with built in abilities like subsystem targeting, KDF get Carriers. The BoP is it's own thing, it can be fit to do many roles, but in the end it doesn't do them as well as the FED type ship.
I have played both sides in PvP, flown every type of ship extensively.
My MVAE can eat any Raptor and most BoP's with ease.
My Carrier is hard to kill by anything that isn't Science, but I can't kill them either.
My BoP can hurt anything but a Cruiser, given I get a sneak attack and they have no dedicated healer. Otherwise it's just harrassment and misdirection of their attention.
My Science ships, both tbe Dyk and the Intrepid-R are virtually unkillable, but I deal little damage to anyone. Or i hit hard AOE with Wells and Rifts...but have to fly around in a paper airplane.
1 on 1, my Dreadnaught beats a Garumba everytime...without it being even close.
I still fly my Sov on FED side too, simply because it takes a combined effort of KDF ships to destroy it, and I can usually still take one of them with me.
FYI, I play KDF more than FED. Always have, and always will. Truth be told, I win far more matches on KDF side, but that isn't because of the ships. It's because FED players don't really do much PvP. They don't have to, they have plenty of things to do. KDF, it's all they have. They are much better at PvP than FED players.
9 out of 10 times on FED side you will end up with 1/3 of your team who has no clue what they are doing in PvP. In dedicated teams, FEDs have no reason not to win unless they get out played. KDF have always been better at PvP beacuse it is what they "grew" up doing. Only recently have the KDF had ways to level up that wasn't built around PvP. And they still don't have much of that.
Of course they will be better at it when that is all they do. FED players have always cried foul of the KDF being overpowered. Those same FED players can come over to KDF side and play, and they lose...and they dont' understand how. KDF have taken nerf after nerf to their ships. They have watched the FEDs get new ships with fancy powers. The KDF get nothing. Not even new costumes.
If the KDF dominate PvP, which isn't entirely true, it's all they got. People tend to become good at things when they do it all the time.
there is a simple reason, why these consoles arent useable on oother ships. cause they dont have MVAM or SaucerSep or a cloak. these changes were made JUST for one reason: to get rid of them without loosing the benefit from a retrofit. you still gain one console mod slot.
there might as well not be a galaxy R anymore then. its the worst at cruiser related duties, and there will be nothing unique about it.
im really tired of this issue being ignored by the devs, unlike the nonsensical excelsior complaining that caused its console rollback. one of your premium ships, the galaxy R of course, niche is that its the worst choice among cruiser
the galaxy R has everything working against it in this game. its new 9th console is nothing but an ability console dump location, its station setup doesn't help it heal or dps better then other cruisers, its innate movement ability is the worst by far, and its unique ability strips durability for maneuverability and does basically nothing to increase dps, despite its intention of being an enhanced tactical mode.
if the galaxy X is going to get to use saucer separation too, then the galaxy R and galaxy X should just merge into 1 premium ship.
with this change, the lance along with the 3rd nacelle should became a console too, in addition to the current cloaking console. the visuals of the 3rd nacelle, lance and the use of duel cannons should be linked to the new lance console too, just like the borg visuals are linked to the borg set pieces.
the end result should be a galaxy X/R with 4 engineering, 2 science, and 3 tactical consoles with a universal ensign station instead of ether an engineering or tactical station. its special consoles would be the cloak console, lance and nacelle console and separation console.
if people have bought both the galaxy R and X, give them 1600 c points, that's what both cost now. seriously, something like this needs to happen, there are to many galaxy variants, and one is terrible wile the other keeps getting better.
This is a well thought out and reasoned argument. I'm am absolutely in agreement with it, but if the devs do not implement it, I really, really do want the saucer separation for my Dreadnought.
No it isn't.
I can actually work out what does what now without having to borrow a mates advanced space science lexicon...
You're just gonna have to get used to fighting people with proper builds now...
Only if those of us that bought both get our C-points back...
And i doubt Cryptic can do that without to much hassle.
Not only that, but Excel also has better tac BO. You can do so much more with the single ltcdr tac than you can with just an ensign and a lt on the free assault cruiser. (like being able to have both decent cannon and torp abilities). Even if someone says "well a +1 by itself doesn't mean it's OP", then consider the BO layout too. Every other T5 cruiser that has bonuses do not have both bonuses in tac with 0 drawbacks (Gal-X for example has lost a ens eng for the phaser lance, which comes with a 3min CD; free star cruiser has the same as galaxy except has an extra ens sci BO; the Gal-R is hardly even worth buying because the only thing it gains is saucer sep).
Also, assuming that you have a 4x EPtX setup for constant power in 2 systems, you can slot Engy Team 1, Aux to Sif 2 or 3, Extend Shields 2 or 3, and Aceton Field 1 or 3 (obviously only taking one of the level 3 powers). That's good healing and damage dealing.
i dont mean to be too cannon, but u need to look this vid over...saucer seperation on the galaxy x would be vertually impossible because it would tear the ship apart...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0R0mdEP5fc
thanks, its really unacceptable how poorly they setup the stats the galaxy R, you nerf yourself and your team if you use it.
ya i thought of that, its an important part of this.
the point is you would be better off with a star cruiser if you wanted to heal, with its ensign science you could slot HE instead of ET and run into less global cooldown issues. what if you had ET 3 too or you were getting alpha'ed and needed TT to save yourself? both would be cooling down and the galaxy R would die and the star cruiser would have lived. that many engineering powers ties you down with too many global cooldows to function as well as any other cruiser choice.
and damage? again a star cruiser has the potential to be more offensively dangerous too. they have the same number of tactical consoles and 3 sci powers can cause more trouble to your opponent then 2 sci powers and an engineering power. so even the star cruiser is more dangerous then the galaxy R, not to mention the sovereign, galaxy X and excelsior.
the poor galaxy R flatly sucks.
EDIT: A Star Cruiser would be better at self healing, and the Galaxy-R at team healing (since the Gal-R could slot all of its healing powers plus the newly revamped AF + both Sci healing powers).