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I was thinking the other day, why always balance the abilities?
Why not simply redo the skill tree and really make skill three count for something. Maybe then, not just abilities, but even the classes might become more polished, more distinct?
What you think ppl?
Why not simply redo the skill tree and really make skill three count for something. Maybe then, not just abilities, but even the classes might become more polished, more distinct?
What you think ppl?
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"redo" the skill tree means putting space into space and ground into ground and all the ships into generic classes so we can fly any ship we want at any time....
1) Changing the ship related and weapons skills so you don't have to respec just because you switched from AC to SC or Quantums to Photons.
2) Splitting Ground and Space skill tree. That might come with changing the cost for skills and with a level cap increase. *PvP community alarm bells ringing*
If I wasn't such a lazy ... donkey ... I could try to find the relevant quotes in the Dev Tracker over the past weeks. But thankfully for me, I am lazy.
Other issues in these areas are similarly being addressed in the course of this process.
At some point on the future we have also discussed decoupling the space and ground skill points.
A full review of space powers is also on Geko's long-term list of things to do.
Now that it will be practical to have more than one ship to fly it would be awesome if we had more outposts to fly to in order to switch out our ships.
I don't know if the game engine would require us to do it from the ground but if we could change it from space at these outposts the content team wouldn't even have to make new ground zones to beam down to. They could just kit bash some Star Basses and throw in some Dry Docks and hook up some NPC contacts similar in fashion to Battle Group Omega and we would be set.
You. Are. Doing. It. Wrong.
Geko needs to get his butt onto OPvP and onto the highly concentrated places of knowledge like the TSI vent. He needs to be meeting with highly knowledgeable members of the community like Big Red. Any kind of review he tries to do by himself will fail because he doesn't understand balance, and the rest of Cryptic is equally helpless. No amount of theory crafting or pouring over mined data is going to cure the fact that you guys are operating from a position of ignorance. We are here to help. Let us.
yes. i said so at the beginning.
Having Anti Proton requiring more points than phasers, for example, makes no sense.
And needing different points in different weapons doesn't make sense in space if you don't need it in ground.
If I were them and heard you talk about me like you just talked about them I guarantee you would be the last person I would talk to ever about anything. No matter if your correct or not you can't tell somebody "your ignorant and out of touch, now listen to me." That approach never works.
Maybe not, but nothing else has ever gotten through to these guys. They either need to:
a.) Learn how to play the darn game
or
b.) Seek help from the PvP community
But they instead choose
c.) Randomly TRIBBLE around and break things
We've tried diplomacy. We've tried being nice, writing long intelligent posts. Doesn't work. We keep getting stupid **** that unbalances the game. And lately the pace of destruction has rapidly accelerated. Tough love might not work, hell it probably won't and maybe nothing will -- but it's about the only tool left at this point.
Hey Hurley,
I understand your frustration, but I gotta agree w/ the other poster... we should keep it cordial and diplomatic. I feeeeeel your frustration and pain, honestly I do -- I'm right there with you. In fact, I sincerely hope Heretic and Gecko take your advice and actually work w/ the OPvP community. But insulting people is rarely the best tactic at pushing an agenda, especially one as important as this.
This is truth.
I understand the frustration too. Honestly I don't play much PvP because the balance issues. I did a lot in the begging but it just wasn't fun. Id love to be able to get back in it and Id love be able to stop dealing with all these changes on the PvE side of things to balance out the PvP. I just want to see one huge balance pass were everything is fixed at once. This will require a lot of input from the community. From Heretics post it sounds like this is a later on down the road kind of an overhaul. For now all I expect they can do is take care of exploitative balance issues.
In the time being were all gonna have to wait it out till more pressing matters are taken care of. Hurley I'd hate to see you burn your bridges between now and when they make their PvP focus because you do have some good ideas and a great base of knowledge and experience in PvP. It would be a shame when this process kicks off if your not a part of it.
Nobody has a monopoly on "the truth" when it comes to balancing - developers included. All of us have pieces of information the others do not, and only very rarely is there ever any sort of true consensus - what one person thinks "obviously is the solution" is rarely as universal an opinion as they might believe.
Development has the task of pulling together the information from the disparate opinions and impressions of players to numerical analysis to technical constraints to impact on every part of the game, and fitting a plan into a very packed schedule.
There was a comment in another thread about maximum target restrictions being necessary for technical reasons, with one player saying it did not matter.
That, in fact, is exactly the point; these things do in fact matter to those who have to build and maintain this system, and must be taken into consideration by development. I do not have the luxury of ignoring what our engineering department says, nor the inheritance structure of the data, nor the schedule that Production lays out, nor the publicly available information that Marketing indicates, nor the art budgets, nor a dozen other considerations and limitations.
These are immensely complicated systems, and the reason we encourage discussion and feedback from the forums is because there is a concrete and definable benefit to drawing upon the experience and opinions of the community.
I greatly appreciate and will continue to take into account all responses that are productive, reasonable and civil. Inflammatory or uncivil responses will simply result in that poster being ignored, and thus no longer able to contribute effectively to the discussion, ultimately helping nothing.
And I feel horrible about basically shouting at you, but I'm just exasperated about all of the ways we have tried and failed to get through. We want to help. You guys need the help. What's the big problem?
That being said, all too often there is consensus (or something close enough to it) from the PvP population that ends up being ignored. We had consensus about the new FAW before it hit live, and we have consensus about torp spread now, same with scramble and antimatter spread. It looks like the entire "AOE only effecting 5 objects" is gaining a consensus against it as well.
And that being said, there are some people who simply know better than others. RPers and PvErs know basically nothing. The average PvPer knows quite a bit more, but not nearly as much as the top members of say, QEW or TSI know. If PvPers have consensus on something we're typically right. If the top PvPers have consensus on something then they are typically right, even if there is still debate among the larger PvP community.
Sorry, but I'll call BS on that one. The issue is that you don't put any effort into finding credible sources. Having design discussions on the tribble forums, TTS, or God forbid general discussion is going to pollute feedback to the point where it becomes worthless. Guys like Big Red, Era, and Kharn should be on your speed-dial but they aren't. Hell, I haven't even heard of a PvPer ever getting onto an internal or closed test shard, but for some reason this happens all of the time for STF players. In what universe is that the more important consideration for you guys?
That was me. And thanks for the straw man argument but that's not what I said. Here's what the deal is with the max 5 object AOE limit:
People have been trying to point these things out to you, but you just aren't listening. You keep repeating yourself, and you aren't acknowledging any of the points we bring up. This is the problem -- a lack of communication and a "We don't need help!" attitude when you desperately do need it.
Then communicate those limitations to us so we can help you work around them! If you hopped onto OPvP, or better yet Vent/TS/Skype then we could understand better what you can and can not do. Again, we only want to help! What's the big issue here, pride?
If these systems are immensely complicated, then why don't you treat them as such? Slow down. Don't do things for the sheer hell of it (like changing the torp cooldown) without sober second thought from yourself and the PvP community.
If I'm being rude, it's simply due to sheer desperation at this point. I would like nothing more than a productive, mutually respective dialog. Give a little. Come onto OPvP. Vent up. Listen to us. We'll listen to you too. You'll get a much warmer response if you actually try to work with us.
Sure, it may sting your pride a little bit, but it can't be any worse than the constant **** storm of negativity that comes with every single change that you make when you don't listen!
I think there is an option in the controls menu that you can change so your tab targetting only targets players and not mines etc. That the sort of thing you want?
The part in red I take exception to. That is your opinion and not fact. Simply because someone would tend to RP or PvE more than PvP doesn't mean squat in term of knowledge. I could just as easily say that PvP know nothing but I won't. Everyone has got their opinion and insights. One is no less valid than the other. If PvP people have a proble with a particular power being over powered or under powered... fine however, their opinion or knowledge is no better or worse thatn anyone else who has spent equal time playing the game.
Hurly can come off as condescending... personal jibs aside, he is pretty much correct.
When it comes to the inner working of the games math, sorry there is an elite, I don't say that to put anyone down its simply the nature of competition.
I would not argue that because I play some hockey on the weekends in a pickup league that my thoughts on the game carry the same weight of say a Wayne Gretzky. I think that analogy needs no explaining.
Being competitive in the higher levels of STO PvP is no different. Beyond just having lots of practice you have to have an understanding of the mechanics.
PvE People don't copy to the test server so they can test 10 variations of the same build to get combat log results..... PvP people do.
PvE People don't optimize EVERY single aspect of their build looking for synergies that make X and Y > then X and Y if you know what I mean.
PvP people will whip out non game related mathematical formulas to adjust and improve their builds.
Its a level of dedication to the game that gives people unique insights. Truly I mean no offense to the PvE people... and I doubt HB does either. There simply is people in this game that are THAT much better then even the majority of PvP... its that ability to "see" inside the mechanics that the devs should be sifting out. We all know who the "#99s" are in this game... the devs should be weighing their thoughts more heavily, just as any sports board of directors is wise to consult people in the know when they change rules ect.
Game Menu -> Controls =
I'm all for more Balance...
So long as the Definition of "Balance" makes more sense than some other Cryptic Key Word definitions.... *Cough*Content*Cough*
At this point we are talking about the mechanics of the game engine itself, not players targeting.
If an ability like say Scramble sensors is given a limit of 5 targets... that will include mines / pets / ect.
They where not talking about self targeting.
On top of this, those that only do PvE will never experience the special console abilities being use on them.
Why not? Is there a rule somewhere that says they can't put those powers on NPCs?
The only reason this is true in most cases is because most people who play PvE don't play in a way that requires that level of dedication. Now lets take a couple of examples of PvE where that level of dedication can be required to enjoy to game.
Elite Mode: I don't know how it plays out for people in cruisers or science ships but in an Escort as Ive done if you were to try to play the whole PvE game solo on Elite Mode and you don't become intimate with the inner workings of the game it will be pure frustration and not fun at all. One you gain that understanding the challenge becomes fun and at the time I did it shortly after Elite mode was released I went into PvP and held my own very well despite it being my 1st time to PvP in any kind of MMO.
Another example is the STFs. This holds true mostly for the time near their release and will again as soon as elite version are released. If you want to be successful even with team work you have to know how the game works. The place where this breaks down is where methods of completing the challenges become tribal knowledge and instead of knowing how to play people know how to beat the STF but the point remains that in the beginning people still had to know how to play and how the game works. Id venture to say that the people who first figured out how to play the STFs knew the technical inner workings of the game better than the PvP community. The STFs where filled with game mechanics to be exploited and they were.
After saying this I will admit that when your dealing with the way skills interact and the nuances of DPS and their calculation PvPers do have a better understanding of the game but to say that PvE crowd has no idea as HB did is just as out of touch as he claims the devs are.
Just as you have PvP people who know the game better than the rest you also have PvE people who know them too and have a different understanding of them. The PvE side may be a little more sterile and predictable but we deal with the same set of mechanics and in the end both sides of the game have to be fun. Both sides of the game have to be represented because both sides are effected.
If their was no attractive PvE game their wouldn't be enough people left in the game to keep it open and allow the minority who PvP to do that.
They haven't released any missions since we got those consoles. I would actually be amazed if some of the "Boss" ships at the end of some of the missions don't get them.
Unless You are the Boss... <chuckle>
(Still doesn't really work... but very rarely would ya get back talk about it...)
That would allow for some truly spectacular displays like Torp Spread III without messing with the balance of PvP. It could also be used to make things like that devs in charge of creating cool new rewards for the FE some more freedom to make whatever they can envision without breaking anything.
Edit: Along those lines would it be possible for items abilities or consoles to have different stats in PvP than PvE?
These are 2 different kinds of mechanics at work. In pve for example you never have to worry about being scrambled, where in pvp being scrambled can mean the difference between winning or losing. In pve there is no losing.
I don't know if my point got made but the point is, pve mechanics are not. And will not ever be the same as pvp mechanics because the ai is severly limited in what it can do and what it has at its disposal where pvp are humans that find/use everything at their disposal.
This I think would be the best solution if we also wanted to thin the pvp community even more.
I can just imagine all the crys of people new to the game asking why such and such power is the best in pve but doesn't do anything in pvp etc etc
To go a step further with the point... Mastering PvE Mechanics, involves mastering the AI. Until Cryptic (No other Designer has ever done it either) develops and AI that can adapt and change out skills and such on you. The mechanics of PvE involve learning what skills counter which type of AI. Sure on elite mode they will spam a few more torps and ignore a few GCD rules... but those are the mechanics you are learning. The Devs are right to seek people out that have learned the mechanics of their AI for info in that regards. When it comes to Skill balance PvP people are in a unique situation, as their opponents do Adapt. They will counter X skill with Y ect.
Again I don't belittle the contribution good PvE players cam give the devs... but the feedback is going to be based on how something effects the mechanics Vs the AI.
Having said that when they tweek skills to act in "balance" with one another... they need to adapt their AI to create the proper level of challange.
So in this regard yes they should listen to people that are very good at adapting to PvE mechanics.
I would say that by balancing the skills with one another (PvP domain) it should be possible to tweek the AI to provide for better PvE content.
However the horse needs to come first ... and that engine is the underlying mechanics of the skills and game play mechanics interaction which PvP people in general will have a better grasp on. (in general)
So bottom line... balance the skills for PvP... and tweek the AI to provide the proper AI to Skill balance after.
I used to play Guild Wars a lot and the task of balancing their skills was much more complicated than anything STO could come close to. That game had 10 professions to chose from with well over 100 abilities each and every character had a secondary profession and could use any of the abilities from that profession as well. Their were no restrictions on the combination of each profession you could chose except that you could only have one secondary at a time. Though I never PvPed in that one I did have to deal with the balancing issues constantly because PvP and PvE used the same abilities. Because people found overpowered builds in PvP I had to redo the way I played PvE on a regular basis. This went on for years until they separated many of the problematic abilities into PvE and PvP versions.
All my friends in that game who PvPed were happy now that PvP could be balanced more rapidly and I never heard one complained about a decrease to the PvP population. The PvE crowd was also happy because we finally got some stability in the game. They made it very obvious before players entered PvP that they had abilities equipped that were different in PvP.
IMO this would be a great direction for STO to take. Theirs no reason the PvE crowd shouldn't have some cool new toy that may be overpowered in PvP if the impact on PvP can be eliminated.