I want to throw my 2 cents in here. A science vessel in pvp fit with nothing but Hargh'Pengs can kill anyone in short order because the secondary explosion can bypass shields. They need no power to their weapons and can tank their shields so as to make themselves nigh invincible. This is the worst thing for cruiser captains since the old Feedback Pulse. Hargh'Pengs used to be a novelty for the doomsday mission not unlike the fire extinguisher. I think I speak for many in the community who want the fellow who dreamed up the secondary explosion part of the hargh'peng's head on a pike. Sure Hazard emitters can clear this shield negating bomb but their cooldown is nowhere near a match for this weapon when it is stacked in every slot on an opponent's ship.
I want to throw my 2 cents in here. A science vessel in pvp fit with nothing but Hargh'Pengs can kill anyone in short order because the secondary explosion can bypass shields. They need no power to their weapons and can tank their shields so as to make themselves nigh invincible. This is the worst thing for cruiser captains since the old Feedback Pulse. Hargh'Pengs used to be a novelty for the doomsday mission not unlike the fire extinguisher. I think I speak for many in the community who want the fellow who dreamed up the secondary explosion part of the hargh'peng's head on a pike. Sure Hazard emitters can clear this shield negating bomb but their cooldown is nowhere near a match for this weapon when it is stacked in every slot on an opponent's ship.
been there, you are literally helpless against them
If you guys get your way in nerfing the hell out of the torps like this I wont use it anymore. The harhpengs are great for use in PVE. The secondary explosion is an added bonus especially in the weak sci ships.
I say that the devs should put the HP torps on a different timer but ONLY in pvp. They could function as normal in pve.
If you guys get your way in nerfing the hell out of the torps like this I wont use it anymore. The harhpengs are great for use in PVE. The secondary explosion is an added bonus especially in the weak sci ships.
I say that the devs should put the HP torps on a different timer but ONLY in pvp. They could function as normal in pve.
And they will still be useful in PvE after they get a GCD (which is what most people are proposing want). Even if the GCD is 15 seconds (the current CD of the torp), they do more damage than a Quantum in addition to having a radiation/detonation proc that goes off 100% of the time.
Once again, if your main complaint is how they work in PvP, then campaign to change them in PvP. Leave PvE out of this. Your opinion of how your nerf will still allow them to be useful in PvE is irrelevant. You are asking to change one portion of the game over the complaints of another portion of the game, and neither portion affects the other. Keep it that way.
How about we not change a game due to PvP concerns? I don't care what they do to these in PvP, but please leave them alone for the rest of us that don't care about PvP.
What he said. I like these things. Not sure what they do to the bad guys but they make them go "boom" faster 8P
Once again, if your main complaint is how they work in PvP, then campaign to change them in PvP. Leave PvE out of this. Your opinion of how your nerf will still allow them to be useful in PvE is irrelevant. You are asking to change one portion of the game over the complaints of another portion of the game, and neither portion affects the other. Keep it that way.
It would solve a ton of problems if Cryptic had seperate values for PvE and PvP, unfortunately they don't. So if you balance an item or ability for PvE, you have to do the same for PvP as well. And vice versa.
It would solve a ton of problems if Cryptic had seperate values for PvE and PvP, unfortunately they don't. So if you balance an item or ability for PvE, you have to do the same for PvP as well. And vice versa.
They might as well make two completely different STO games, because that's essentially what it would become then (With twice as much work for Cryptic). You'd have to build ships and roll characters for PvP or PvE but one that tried to work well in both would do average at best in both. As it is now while PvP is on a different level than PvE (A higher level), being good at PvP does notmmake you bad at PvE. If anything being good at PvP makes you really stupid good at PvE.
PvE is the minor leagues, PvP the majors, but it's then same game essentially. Having PvP and PvE balanced separately would make it more like MLB and Futbol.
One would think that game companies, especially Cryptic with their poor PvP design in CoH, would have divided PvP and PvE to begin with. And yeah, dual builds work too as proven by the company that took CoH off their hands. These are not difficult issues - it's just code. All it takes is programming and the will to do it.
Originally Posted by mistformsquirrel
This is honestly my chief gripe with it. I actually think it's a really cool weapon on the whole; but It's kind of obnoxious when one side has access to a useful and powerful weapon... and the other doesn't.
I know, dont you hate that? They should make everything open to all players, like battle cloak, carriers, and dont forget the all universal slots.... NOT
This is honestly my chief gripe with it. I actually think it's a really cool weapon on the whole; but It's kind of obnoxious when one side has access to a useful and powerful weapon... and the other doesn't.
As for the cooldown... Why not give it the same kind of mutual cooldown as a boff power? That is, if one torpedo tube takes 15 seconds to reload, then the other will have a 7.5 cooldown when the first fires.
Additionally, maybe it should have a slight damage nerf... with the caveat that either an existing torpedo skill or a new torpedo skill could then be used to bring it back up to the same level of damage as current.
That would be more fair, since it would actually require skill investment like every other weapon in the game.
Overall I really like the Hargh'peng, it's a neat idea, fun to use... but it's a bit much at present IMO.
well the if you go by that line of thinking the fed side should have the battle cloack and thats not happening, see this is what people are forgetting when they complain about kdf not haveing it well we dont have your battle cloaks, if we have to give yall this then we should get battle cloak fair is fair
Please don't tell me you are asking for this, for PVP purposes. If so...please find a way to adapt to the problem rather than asking for the whole game to be declawed.
Please don't tell me you are asking for this, for PVP purposes. If so...please find a way to adapt to the problem rather than asking for the whole game to be declawed.
Here's the situation on the Hargh'Pengs...
- 100% proc rate
- Infinite stackability (is that a word?) on your target
- GCD equivalent to Photons.
Now, if a GCD of 10 seconds (which seems to be the most commonly accepted fix for them) is implemented, you can still cycle 2 effectively.
On top of that, the torps will retain:
- Fastest flight speed (by far) of any torpedo
- Higher than Quantum levels of damage, without requiring any skill point investment (beyond base Torpedo skills)
- Extra damage from the radiation and final detonation proc.
If you have trouble with PvE with the proposed 10 second GCD, then, quite frankly, you can't really comment on balance issues at all.
Also, please note that there are many, many buffs that are being called for "for PvP's sake." We're not trying to declaw the game; we're trying to make it better.
However, if you believe that we still need to "simply adapt to the situation", then I'd be more than happy to demonstrate why there's an issue with them. We can do a private PvP challenge where I use nothing than Pengs (with no BO abilities at all - not even heals), and we'll see if you can overcome them.
This game got along just fine without the current version of the Hargh'Peng. There are MANY other torpedo options available to players so removing something that was added just over a month ago will not change the effectivenss of all the other choices. The secondary shield bypassing explosion should be removed totally. The radiation burn is fine, the current damage is fine. Shield bypassing weapons of that caliber have been nerfed in the past (FBP,VM). Nerf the HP.
these hargh pangs barley make sense, currently any impact, shield or hull, can cause a DOT and if untreated an AoE explosion. What is exploding exactly? Did the torpedo penetrate the shields and get stuck? Instead it should do this. Every impact should instantly cause that secondary AOE explosion, no crazy direct hull damage or DOT, just its very high impact damage and the area of effect explosion. there's enough torps that are meant to penetrate shields, and should be penetrating shields, we need those fixed not another one.
I think that the Hargh'Pengs should be made Unique (as in each character can own only one at a time, and if you want to get a new one, you have to toss out the old one first). We can't get multiples of the fore/aft Retrofit Phasers after all.
They might as well make two completely different STO games, because that's essentially what it would become then (With twice as much work for Cryptic). You'd have to build ships and roll characters for PvP or PvE but one that tried to work well in both would do average at best in both. As it is now while PvP is on a different level than PvE (A higher level), being good at PvP does notmmake you bad at PvE. If anything being good at PvP makes you really stupid good at PvE.
PvE is the minor leagues, PvP the majors, but it's then same game essentially. Having PvP and PvE balanced separately would make it more like MLB and Futbol.
I agree. Cryptic can't handle balancing two games. Two sets of mechanics is a bad bad idea. And for those that do PvP and PvE they get totally screwed over just so PvE stuff can remain unbalanced.
Originally Posted by mistformsquirrel
This is honestly my chief gripe with it. I actually think it's a really cool weapon on the whole; but It's kind of obnoxious when one side has access to a useful and powerful weapon... and the other doesn't.
I know, dont you hate that? They should make everything open to all players, like battle cloak, carriers, and dont forget the all universal slots.... NOT
And Science ships with great manouvrebility and super armor (RSV+Intrepid clone), and LtC Tac cruisers (Vor'cha with LtC Tac), and Engbased SVs (D'kyr+Nebula), and MVA BOPs, and Faction specific consoles (that silly L1 SV with console) and hypermanouvreble cruisers (Seperated Negh'var for example)
well the if you go by that line of thinking the fed side should have the battle cloack and thats not happening, see this is what people are forgetting when they complain about kdf not haveing it well we dont have your battle cloaks, if we have to give yall this then we should get battle cloak fair is fair
The BoP pays for its cloak with the least hull in the game, making vattlecloaking russian roulette with four of six revolver chambers filled.
What do the "Full 'Penga loadout" or whatever ships pay with?
"Balanced doesn't mean identical yet until now all weapons were available to both sides...until now.
Also the 'Pengs don't only affect KvF, they affect FvF as well so this is not some kind of "Klingon Problem".
If you guys get your way in nerfing the hell out of the torps like this I wont use it anymore. The harhpengs are great for use in PVE. The secondary explosion is an added bonus especially in the weak sci ships.
I say that the devs should put the HP torps on a different timer but ONLY in pvp. They could function as normal in pve.
What's a "weak sci ship"?
You're not supposed to outgun the enemy with a Sci ship, you're supposed to outthink the enemy.
That's their puropose.
They are less well armed than many other ships but can use their electronics usually used for resarch to offset this disadvantage.
When you need the 'Peng (in PvE of all things) to compensate for a weakness that does not actually exist I'd honestly recommend you reevaluate your playstyle.
Also when, irrespective whether it's PvE or PvP, one weapon is so effective compared to others that the others pale compared to said weapon, it's plain broken and needs to be adjusted.
Otherwise there's no point to the other weapons.
I am more and more beginning to think that more rules seperation between PvE and PvP would be better, and if just to keep PvE and PvPers from their throat.
The simple start:
Remove the stupid Hargh'Peng and Tractor Beam Mines from PvP. Change the TBMs back to what they were before their nerf if necessary to make PvE players happy.
Heck, remove the set items and the Assimilated Console as well for PvP. Maybe keep the visual options, and give them regular purple gear stats. Than at least there will be a point to all the other very rare impule engines, shield arrays and deflectors.
Cryptic can come up with something better balanced at a later time Or more likely, never.
If you guys get your way in nerfing the hell out of the torps like this I wont use it anymore. The harhpengs are great for use in PVE. The secondary explosion is an added bonus especially in the weak sci ships.
I say that the devs should put the HP torps on a different timer but ONLY in pvp. They could function as normal in pve.
But don't you already see how this is a folly? The Hargh'Peng are apparantly the only thing that makes Science Vessel work well in your opinion? One single item, that can only be acquired by one specific mission? How can that be balanced? How is that good game design?
IF the Science Vessel is too weak, and it's not just your build, it requires the magic of these Hargh'Peng to fix it, how can that be right?
And I assure you one thing:
A Science Vessel is not at all weak in PvP. There are plenty of powers that considerably TRIBBLE with player ships.
Why don't Science Vessels work as well in PvE? Maybe because PvE is a joke in difficulty. Because the only way Cryptic found to create "challenging" NPCs is to arbitrary increase their damage and hit points.
Players have to use specific powers to get the equivalent of that damage and that hit points (and usually far more than that) - and the fact that they need to use powers is why Science Vessels and Science Captains rock in PvP. Someone is buffing himself to the wazoo - one single Subnucleonic Beam, and it's all gone. Someone has built up a ton of shield resists (and no SNB is around) - Charged Particle Burst and Tachyon Beam don't care for resistances. Someone is relying on a bunch of healing powers from an ally - Scramble his sensors and he won't know where those heals will go, or use tractor beam repulsors to remove him from his aids. Someone is relying on speed and hit & run - tractor him, catch him in a Gravity Well.
Cryptic will have to do one of two things. Fix NPCs. They must use more powers, especially at higher difficulty levels, instead of just being bags of hit points.
Or they must split the game rules, a set of rules for PvP, a set of rules for PvE.
I prefer the first option, actually. I believe it would be easier to revamp the critters than try to create two different rulesets and keep them balanced. The biggest issue for PvE with the second option would not be that it would become too hard. It would become easier over time, and older stuff would be left behind and forgotten. PvPers didn't just get powers nerfed, there was plenty of stuff buffed in response to PvP concerns, particularly with Season 2. I've seen plenty of threads from PvPers wanting to nerf or buff certain powers, but almost never seen them from PvEers. Who will call for Energy Siphon to be improved in PvE, to pick one example? And so over time, more and more powers fade into obscurity, recognized as useless but replaced by the fancy newest device Cryptic cooked up for a Featured Episode.
well the if you go by that line of thinking the fed side should have the battle cloack and thats not happening, see this is what people are forgetting when they complain about kdf not haveing it well we dont have your battle cloaks, if we have to give yall this then we should get battle cloak fair is fair
Funny but the Feds have a lead in that regard as well. Lets see here...
Races that impact ship combat performance:
Feds=1 Space Efficient Saurians / Klings=0
Ship separation:
Feds=2 Gal-R and MVAM Promie / Klings=0
Anti Cloak Scan:
Feds=1 Nebula / Klings=0
Har'Peng:
Feds=1 All ships all ranks / Klings=0
Carriers:
Feds=0 / Klings=2
Battle Cloak
Feds=0 / Klings=one ship in each tier total 5
Cloak:
Feds=1 Defiant-R / Klings=near all
Uni slots:
Fes have multiple ships with one uni all at end Game / Klings=1with multiple slots at end game
Dedicated Science Vessels:
Feds=I do not have the patience to count / Klings=1Veranus
That puts the Feds with a lead of at least two. I am certain that others can add to this off the top of my head list to show that yet again the Feds have more special faction distinct goodies than the KDF and the only one the KDF really bothers to complain about is the Her'peng and the dedicated science vessels to a lesser degree.
Part of the issue here (just my impression, could be totally wrong) is that the PvP crowd desperately wants this toned down from the current ridiculous levels and the PvE crowd either A) doesn't want it changed at all or (more common) doesn't want it nerfed to high heaven as they interpret the PvP crowd wants.
Now, I only do PvP sporadically, and haven't actually done it since the new torp was introduced. Assuming the numbers reported here are accurate as a whole (and I have no reason to doubt they are) something needs to be done. A ship with nothing but 6 torps really shouldn't be viable in an IP so based around Phasers and Disruptors and such.
That said, the most common suggestion, a 10 second global CD, seems a bit high to me, especially when combined with some of the other suggestions (lower damage, reduce or remove the proc, etc.)
The elements seem to be as follows:
shield bypassing secondary explosion
AOE secondary explosion
Radiation DOT
3 second launch rate
high damage w/out skill req
Now, 10 seconds seems too high to me, but so does 3 torps in front being doable. Is there a way to limit them to 2 front and back (upper limit here, without considerations of efficacy) aside from a GCD? What about a 4 second gcd and a 8 second cycle time? Slower rate than now, but not as big a jump as 10.
Now, the sec. explosion bypassing shields does make sense considering the torp already initially hit - but clearly stacking so much is a problem. A simple balanced solution would seem to be limiting the number of times the proc can stack (more than 2 seems excessive) or lowering the rate of proc from 1/3 to 1/5 or 1/6.
Perhaps we should remove either the dot or the secondary explosion - though without that time between avoiding the sec. explosion becomes harder. Maybe toning down one or the other would be better?
Another aspect of this problem, frankly, is how much time the PvP crowd spends in condescending talk towards the PvE crowd about it being easier, etc. It gets downright insulting at times, and comes off as elitist. is PvP harder? Of course it is. That doesn't mean you need to bring it up multiple times per thread page and constantly assert that your needs take precedence automatically as a result. It gets old very, very fast. Balance isn't just about PvE or PvP but BOTH of them. Absent something like Guild Wars ability to change subtly skill behavior in PvP and PvE zones (which does work well, btw, and doesn't seem to cause too much extra work for the company) Cryptic must weigh both sides for whatever changes they do.
TLDR version
We all need to try to get along better - it needs to be balanced for both pvp and pve, not just one.
Tone down the superiority talk - it does you no favors to annoy the larger part of the player base and makes reasonable discussion harder. True or not you don't need to rub anyone's nose in your opinions.
I suggest a 4 Sec GCD, 8 second cycle time, that limits effective use to 2 front and 2 rear, in line with other torp types.
Further I suggest the secondary explosion proc not stack more than 2 times at most OR reduce the chances of applying in the first place from 1/3 to 1/5 or 1/6. The second seems the better choice given multiple players using it against a single ship.
Third I suggest reducing the dot somewhat or reducing the damage of the secondary explosion - perhaps balanced out by a modest range increase? I don't know, but removing one aspect entirely seems a bit much, a balance pass is what is needed, not a major nerf hammer.
another thing with this stupid torp is that when its on you as a bop or brel and u combat cloak the 2ndary explosion will drop you right out of cloak again and reset the timer, so it nulify the brels primary ability way more then sensor boost ,tacy grid , particle burst etc....
Part of the issue here (just my impression, could be totally wrong) is that the PvP crowd desperately wants this toned down from the current ridiculous levels and the PvE crowd either A) doesn't want it changed at all or (more common) doesn't want it nerfed to high heaven as they interpret the PvP crowd wants.
Now, I only do PvP sporadically, and haven't actually done it since the new torp was introduced. Assuming the numbers reported here are accurate as a whole (and I have no reason to doubt they are) something needs to be done. A ship with nothing but 6 torps really shouldn't be viable in an IP so based around Phasers and Disruptors and such.
That said, the most common suggestion, a 10 second global CD, seems a bit high to me, especially when combined with some of the other suggestions (lower damage, reduce or remove the proc, etc.)
The elements seem to be as follows:
shield bypassing secondary explosion
AOE secondary explosion
Radiation DOT
3 second launch rate
high damage w/out skill req
Now, 10 seconds seems too high to me, but so does 3 torps in front being doable. Is there a way to limit them to 2 front and back (upper limit here, without considerations of efficacy) aside from a GCD? What about a 4 second gcd and a 8 second cycle time? Slower rate than now, but not as big a jump as 10.
Now, the sec. explosion bypassing shields does make sense considering the torp already initially hit - but clearly stacking so much is a problem. A simple balanced solution would seem to be limiting the number of times the proc can stack (more than 2 seems excessive) or lowering the rate of proc from 1/3 to 1/5 or 1/6.
Perhaps we should remove either the dot or the secondary explosion - though without that time between avoiding the sec. explosion becomes harder. Maybe toning down one or the other would be better?
Another aspect of this problem, frankly, is how much time the PvP crowd spends in condescending talk towards the PvE crowd about it being easier, etc. It gets downright insulting at times, and comes off as elitist. is PvP harder? Of course it is. That doesn't mean you need to bring it up multiple times per thread page and constantly assert that your needs take precedence automatically as a result. It gets old very, very fast. Balance isn't just about PvE or PvP but BOTH of them. Absent something like Guild Wars ability to change subtly skill behavior in PvP and PvE zones (which does work well, btw, and doesn't seem to cause too much extra work for the company) Cryptic must weigh both sides for whatever changes they do.
TLDR version
We all need to try to get along better - it needs to be balanced for both pvp and pve, not just one.
Tone down the superiority talk - it does you no favors to annoy the larger part of the player base and makes reasonable discussion harder. True or not you don't need to rub anyone's nose in your opinions.
I suggest a 4 Sec GCD, 8 second cycle time, that limits effective use to 2 front and 2 rear, in line with other torp types.
Further I suggest the secondary explosion proc not stack more than 2 times at most OR reduce the chances of applying in the first place from 1/3 to 1/5 or 1/6. The second seems the better choice given multiple players using it against a single ship.
Third I suggest reducing the dot somewhat or reducing the damage of the secondary explosion - perhaps balanced out by a modest range increase? I don't know, but removing one aspect entirely seems a bit much, a balance pass is what is needed, not a major nerf hammer.
Id go for your proposal *if* the torpedo was tied to a existing torpedo skill (transphasics being most logical) - Damage would remain, but only if fully skilled.
Thus, the CD change would limit them to two launchers, and the skill makes sure people have to spec into them to maximize their potential.
I just wish that they would take a little more care, and demonstrate a bit more forethought, before they released new game breaking items. Every time they mess something up (and they do mess something up every time), PvPers take the blame because PvEers lose their little over powered toys.
NPCs can't complain about how ridiculously over powered something is. They can't adapt. They aren't a challenge.
We don't need the same item to have a different effect in PvP from what it does in PvE. What we need is an "RPG Mode" on this loldifficulty slider so that people who want to mindlessly pew through things can one shot NPCs through shields and allow the rest of us to play a balanced, well thought out game.
The BoP pays for its cloak with the least hull in the game, making vattlecloaking russian roulette with four of six revolver chambers filled.
What do the "Full 'Penga loadout" or whatever ships pay with?
"Balanced doesn't mean identical yet until now all weapons were available to both sides...until now.
Also the 'Pengs don't only affect KvF, they affect FvF as well so this is not some kind of "Klingon Problem".
Nope sorry your wrong it makes a huge difference and fare is fare, and that is what ya'll are talking about, you cant have it one way and not the other, eather you want boath sides the same or you dont, and if its so called not fare we have them then not fare yall have the battle cloak.
This is what the disagreement has come to? Sticking our fingers in our ears, closing our eyes, and singing, "la la la la"? Really?
It's true. Balance doesn't mean both sides have to be mirror images of one another. BoP's pay for their "advantages" and with the continued development and improvement to Fed ships that price has become even higher while the benefit has diminished. Har'Pengs on the other hand have no balance. They are good and they are cheap.
Comments
been there, you are literally helpless against them
I say that the devs should put the HP torps on a different timer but ONLY in pvp. They could function as normal in pve.
And they will still be useful in PvE after they get a GCD (which is what most people are proposing want). Even if the GCD is 15 seconds (the current CD of the torp), they do more damage than a Quantum in addition to having a radiation/detonation proc that goes off 100% of the time.
What he said. I like these things. Not sure what they do to the bad guys but they make them go "boom" faster 8P
It would solve a ton of problems if Cryptic had seperate values for PvE and PvP, unfortunately they don't. So if you balance an item or ability for PvE, you have to do the same for PvP as well. And vice versa.
They might as well make two completely different STO games, because that's essentially what it would become then (With twice as much work for Cryptic). You'd have to build ships and roll characters for PvP or PvE but one that tried to work well in both would do average at best in both. As it is now while PvP is on a different level than PvE (A higher level), being good at PvP does notmmake you bad at PvE. If anything being good at PvP makes you really stupid good at PvE.
PvE is the minor leagues, PvP the majors, but it's then same game essentially. Having PvP and PvE balanced separately would make it more like MLB and Futbol.
This is honestly my chief gripe with it. I actually think it's a really cool weapon on the whole; but It's kind of obnoxious when one side has access to a useful and powerful weapon... and the other doesn't.
I know, dont you hate that? They should make everything open to all players, like battle cloak, carriers, and dont forget the all universal slots.... NOT
well the if you go by that line of thinking the fed side should have the battle cloack and thats not happening, see this is what people are forgetting when they complain about kdf not haveing it well we dont have your battle cloaks, if we have to give yall this then we should get battle cloak fair is fair
I agree 100%
Here's the situation on the Hargh'Pengs...
- 100% proc rate
- Infinite stackability (is that a word?) on your target
- GCD equivalent to Photons.
Now, if a GCD of 10 seconds (which seems to be the most commonly accepted fix for them) is implemented, you can still cycle 2 effectively.
On top of that, the torps will retain:
- Fastest flight speed (by far) of any torpedo
- Higher than Quantum levels of damage, without requiring any skill point investment (beyond base Torpedo skills)
- Extra damage from the radiation and final detonation proc.
If you have trouble with PvE with the proposed 10 second GCD, then, quite frankly, you can't really comment on balance issues at all.
Also, please note that there are many, many buffs that are being called for "for PvP's sake." We're not trying to declaw the game; we're trying to make it better.
However, if you believe that we still need to "simply adapt to the situation", then I'd be more than happy to demonstrate why there's an issue with them. We can do a private PvP challenge where I use nothing than Pengs (with no BO abilities at all - not even heals), and we'll see if you can overcome them.
I agree. Cryptic can't handle balancing two games. Two sets of mechanics is a bad bad idea. And for those that do PvP and PvE they get totally screwed over just so PvE stuff can remain unbalanced.
And Science ships with great manouvrebility and super armor (RSV+Intrepid clone), and LtC Tac cruisers (Vor'cha with LtC Tac), and Engbased SVs (D'kyr+Nebula), and MVA BOPs, and Faction specific consoles (that silly L1 SV with console) and hypermanouvreble cruisers (Seperated Negh'var for example)
The BoP pays for its cloak with the least hull in the game, making vattlecloaking russian roulette with four of six revolver chambers filled.
What do the "Full 'Penga loadout" or whatever ships pay with?
"Balanced doesn't mean identical yet until now all weapons were available to both sides...until now.
Also the 'Pengs don't only affect KvF, they affect FvF as well so this is not some kind of "Klingon Problem".
What's a "weak sci ship"?
You're not supposed to outgun the enemy with a Sci ship, you're supposed to outthink the enemy.
That's their puropose.
They are less well armed than many other ships but can use their electronics usually used for resarch to offset this disadvantage.
When you need the 'Peng (in PvE of all things) to compensate for a weakness that does not actually exist I'd honestly recommend you reevaluate your playstyle.
Also when, irrespective whether it's PvE or PvP, one weapon is so effective compared to others that the others pale compared to said weapon, it's plain broken and needs to be adjusted.
Otherwise there's no point to the other weapons.
The simple start:
Remove the stupid Hargh'Peng and Tractor Beam Mines from PvP. Change the TBMs back to what they were before their nerf if necessary to make PvE players happy.
Heck, remove the set items and the Assimilated Console as well for PvP. Maybe keep the visual options, and give them regular purple gear stats. Than at least there will be a point to all the other very rare impule engines, shield arrays and deflectors.
Cryptic can come up with something better balanced at a later time Or more likely, never.
But don't you already see how this is a folly? The Hargh'Peng are apparantly the only thing that makes Science Vessel work well in your opinion? One single item, that can only be acquired by one specific mission? How can that be balanced? How is that good game design?
IF the Science Vessel is too weak, and it's not just your build, it requires the magic of these Hargh'Peng to fix it, how can that be right?
And I assure you one thing:
A Science Vessel is not at all weak in PvP. There are plenty of powers that considerably TRIBBLE with player ships.
Why don't Science Vessels work as well in PvE? Maybe because PvE is a joke in difficulty. Because the only way Cryptic found to create "challenging" NPCs is to arbitrary increase their damage and hit points.
Players have to use specific powers to get the equivalent of that damage and that hit points (and usually far more than that) - and the fact that they need to use powers is why Science Vessels and Science Captains rock in PvP. Someone is buffing himself to the wazoo - one single Subnucleonic Beam, and it's all gone. Someone has built up a ton of shield resists (and no SNB is around) - Charged Particle Burst and Tachyon Beam don't care for resistances. Someone is relying on a bunch of healing powers from an ally - Scramble his sensors and he won't know where those heals will go, or use tractor beam repulsors to remove him from his aids. Someone is relying on speed and hit & run - tractor him, catch him in a Gravity Well.
Cryptic will have to do one of two things. Fix NPCs. They must use more powers, especially at higher difficulty levels, instead of just being bags of hit points.
Or they must split the game rules, a set of rules for PvP, a set of rules for PvE.
I prefer the first option, actually. I believe it would be easier to revamp the critters than try to create two different rulesets and keep them balanced. The biggest issue for PvE with the second option would not be that it would become too hard. It would become easier over time, and older stuff would be left behind and forgotten. PvPers didn't just get powers nerfed, there was plenty of stuff buffed in response to PvP concerns, particularly with Season 2. I've seen plenty of threads from PvPers wanting to nerf or buff certain powers, but almost never seen them from PvEers. Who will call for Energy Siphon to be improved in PvE, to pick one example? And so over time, more and more powers fade into obscurity, recognized as useless but replaced by the fancy newest device Cryptic cooked up for a Featured Episode.
Funny but the Feds have a lead in that regard as well. Lets see here...
Races that impact ship combat performance:
Feds=1 Space Efficient Saurians / Klings=0
Ship separation:
Feds=2 Gal-R and MVAM Promie / Klings=0
Anti Cloak Scan:
Feds=1 Nebula / Klings=0
Har'Peng:
Feds=1 All ships all ranks / Klings=0
Carriers:
Feds=0 / Klings=2
Battle Cloak
Feds=0 / Klings=one ship in each tier total 5
Cloak:
Feds=1 Defiant-R / Klings=near all
Uni slots:
Fes have multiple ships with one uni all at end Game / Klings=1with multiple slots at end game
Dedicated Science Vessels:
Feds=I do not have the patience to count / Klings=1Veranus
That puts the Feds with a lead of at least two. I am certain that others can add to this off the top of my head list to show that yet again the Feds have more special faction distinct goodies than the KDF and the only one the KDF really bothers to complain about is the Her'peng and the dedicated science vessels to a lesser degree.
Now, I only do PvP sporadically, and haven't actually done it since the new torp was introduced. Assuming the numbers reported here are accurate as a whole (and I have no reason to doubt they are) something needs to be done. A ship with nothing but 6 torps really shouldn't be viable in an IP so based around Phasers and Disruptors and such.
That said, the most common suggestion, a 10 second global CD, seems a bit high to me, especially when combined with some of the other suggestions (lower damage, reduce or remove the proc, etc.)
The elements seem to be as follows:
shield bypassing secondary explosion
AOE secondary explosion
Radiation DOT
3 second launch rate
high damage w/out skill req
Now, 10 seconds seems too high to me, but so does 3 torps in front being doable. Is there a way to limit them to 2 front and back (upper limit here, without considerations of efficacy) aside from a GCD? What about a 4 second gcd and a 8 second cycle time? Slower rate than now, but not as big a jump as 10.
Now, the sec. explosion bypassing shields does make sense considering the torp already initially hit - but clearly stacking so much is a problem. A simple balanced solution would seem to be limiting the number of times the proc can stack (more than 2 seems excessive) or lowering the rate of proc from 1/3 to 1/5 or 1/6.
Perhaps we should remove either the dot or the secondary explosion - though without that time between avoiding the sec. explosion becomes harder. Maybe toning down one or the other would be better?
Another aspect of this problem, frankly, is how much time the PvP crowd spends in condescending talk towards the PvE crowd about it being easier, etc. It gets downright insulting at times, and comes off as elitist. is PvP harder? Of course it is. That doesn't mean you need to bring it up multiple times per thread page and constantly assert that your needs take precedence automatically as a result. It gets old very, very fast. Balance isn't just about PvE or PvP but BOTH of them. Absent something like Guild Wars ability to change subtly skill behavior in PvP and PvE zones (which does work well, btw, and doesn't seem to cause too much extra work for the company) Cryptic must weigh both sides for whatever changes they do.
TLDR version
We all need to try to get along better - it needs to be balanced for both pvp and pve, not just one.
Tone down the superiority talk - it does you no favors to annoy the larger part of the player base and makes reasonable discussion harder. True or not you don't need to rub anyone's nose in your opinions.
I suggest a 4 Sec GCD, 8 second cycle time, that limits effective use to 2 front and 2 rear, in line with other torp types.
Further I suggest the secondary explosion proc not stack more than 2 times at most OR reduce the chances of applying in the first place from 1/3 to 1/5 or 1/6. The second seems the better choice given multiple players using it against a single ship.
Third I suggest reducing the dot somewhat or reducing the damage of the secondary explosion - perhaps balanced out by a modest range increase? I don't know, but removing one aspect entirely seems a bit much, a balance pass is what is needed, not a major nerf hammer.
Id go for your proposal *if* the torpedo was tied to a existing torpedo skill (transphasics being most logical) - Damage would remain, but only if fully skilled.
Thus, the CD change would limit them to two launchers, and the skill makes sure people have to spec into them to maximize their potential.
NPCs can't complain about how ridiculously over powered something is. They can't adapt. They aren't a challenge.
We don't need the same item to have a different effect in PvP from what it does in PvE. What we need is an "RPG Mode" on this loldifficulty slider so that people who want to mindlessly pew through things can one shot NPCs through shields and allow the rest of us to play a balanced, well thought out game.
Nope sorry your wrong it makes a huge difference and fare is fare, and that is what ya'll are talking about, you cant have it one way and not the other, eather you want boath sides the same or you dont, and if its so called not fare we have them then not fare yall have the battle cloak.
It's true. Balance doesn't mean both sides have to be mirror images of one another. BoP's pay for their "advantages" and with the continued development and improvement to Fed ships that price has become even higher while the benefit has diminished. Har'Pengs on the other hand have no balance. They are good and they are cheap.