I think 71/30 isn't quite as bad as it might look. Something like 71/40-45 is probably about the right difference between the two factions, so we're not far off a reasonable value, and making variants to all those lower-tiered ships will obviously bring us closer to that.
I know I'll get mobbed for saying that, but /shrug.
Klingon's have never been known for having a vast array of different ships. They are instead renowned for making old ships work exceptionally well, for making ships defy the odds, etc.
Personally, I think Starfleet ships should remain tiered, with certain vessels only being usable at lower tiers, but at T5 all existing Klingon ships should have a T5 variant. The disparity of ship numbers would then look a whole lot different and it would very much fit how Klingons are better at utilising older hulls than Starfleet.
Depending on the how I don't think there's going to be much mobbing, pushing of shoving of any kind.
At least among the KDF playerbase.
The Feds will probabaly scream murder because Cryptic siad the'll not get a T5 TOS Connie...
Anyway I'm in as long as the stats of those refitted lower tier ship reflect that they are refits of lower-tier ships.
Don't get me wrong I don't want them to be weaker than "native" T5 ships.
I want them to fill specific niches and show where they come from.
I'd love a T5 K't'inga but I'd find a T5 K't'inga that can tank as well as a Vor'cha, not ot mention a Negh'var ridicilous.
That's why I foe example proposed it to have stats similar to a ship of a size closer to it, i.e. the Raptor.
Same should be true for a T5 refit of the T2 Raptor which would not make much sense having the same amount of weapons and hull as a T5 Raptor, it shold have other strenghts in its facour like some nice high-end electronics (represented by "blue" slots) to make the enemy's lif miserable while being light-footed due to its small size.
It would give us a well-rounded fleet with some cool toys to play with without turning the KDF into a ridicilous circus.
And, as you put it, there would be several varied ways for very varied player-types among every class to beat both the odds and the enemy.
Or the TLDR version:
The further away the ship's original tier is from T5, the more the refitted ship should differ in function and capabilites from "native" T5 ships of the same category.
Personally, I think Starfleet ships should remain tiered, with certain vessels only being usable at lower tiers, but at T5 all existing Klingon ships should have a T5 variant. The disparity of ship numbers would then look a whole lot different and it would very much fit how Klingons are better at utilising older hulls than Starfleet.
Not every ship would work well at T5 as has already been pointed out. The K'Tinga would make an odd T5 cruiser while the K'Tanco would be impossible as a T5 cruiser.
So let me ask about your idea from a completely different direction. Taking BoPs, the ship classification that this, arguably, would work best with. Would you want the T2-4 BoP's to be alternative skins for either the B'Rel or the Hegh'Ta or completely different ships?
Not every ship would work well at T5 as has already been pointed out. The K'Tinga would make an odd T5 cruiser while the K'Tanco would be impossible as a T5 cruiser.
So let me ask about your idea from a completely different direction. Taking BoPs, the ship classification that this, arguably, would work best with. Would you want the T2-4 BoP's to be alternative skins for either the B'Rel or the Hegh'Ta or completely different ships?
The B'Rel refitalready answers your question.
If you compare the B'Rel refit vs the Hegh'ta, then we can say that:
The B'Rel refit is a "Light Raider".
The Hegh'ta is a "Heavy Raider".
If we ignore for the moment the fact that the B'Rel's cloak is broken, the ship is still viable at T5 and displays a slightly different way of playing a Raider.
That means the T2 and T3 BoP's could be added as T5 "Light Raiders" with the same stats as the B'Rel, while the T4 BoP could be added as a "Heavy Raider" with the same stats as the Hegh'Ta.
Its then just a matter of defining what the difference is between a Heavy and Light Raptor, and Heavy and Light Cruiser, and assigning the ships in the same way as the BoP above.
Taking the Cruiser, for example, a "Light Cruiser" might sport 8 weapon slots but have weaker hull than the Vor'Cha, 1 less console, but use Battle Cloak. So 1vs1 a Light Cruiser will probably not defeat a Heavy Cruiser, but its viable enough and different enough to still be an available option.
So the K'Tanco and K'T'Inga would slot into Light Cruiser, while the Vor'Cha is already a Heavy Cruiser.
I'm not a raptor captain so I'm not even going to attempt to define a difference between a Light and Heavy Raptor, but you get the idea.
Also, having a definable "Light Cruiser" is a good excuse to finally add the K'Vort Cruiser. Sorry, couldn't resist dropping the K'Vort in :P
Yeah, just to make it clear though they aren't shelved forever, just pushed another week. I'll get back to them soon Fortunately I finished all the BoP's already. There will ultimately be more new KDF skins t han Fed skins.
While the first sentence is a reply to a small rant another person said, the rest is interesting The skins are coming along nicely according to him, and hopefully we'll get them soon
Oh, and it's outright confirmed that there are MORE KDF ship skins than Fed YES!
In comparison, the Klingon ships:
Shuttle/Support:
28. Toduj Fighter
29. Shuttle
30. Chariot
So from Tier 4 down, we're talking a comparison of 35/12. From T5 down, 71/30.
I was compairing CLASS type ships not Variant costumes for those ships. That is a bigger difference since those ship classes are the same regardless if they are using one visual representation or another or a combination of such things. Now the shuttles on the other hand I suppose are something else I, again, forgot to consider. But the other stuff is more of a costume issue then just a ship issue.
While the first sentence is a reply to a small rant another person said, the rest is interesting The skins are coming along nicely according to him, and hopefully we'll get them soon
Oh, and it's outright confirmed that there are MORE KDF ship skins than Fed YES!
Good news and it also seems fair since there are so few KDF skins to begin with.
Why waste development time on lower tiers? Youre only in those ships for a few hours. Make Tier 5 ships, or at least make retrofit tier 5 versions of the lower tier ships (like the nebula and excel). No one cares about lower tier ships.
I disagree...a few hours? You know Capn Logan was working on Klingon ships, right?
Don't the Feds have like a biziliion ship skin/options already? dang, greedy...
I don't know how you rank to above T5 ships as a Klingon in a few hours...
Most folks who have to work and do all that other RL stuff only have a few hours a week to play.
I'm happy that Cryptic as a whole is giving the Klingons just about anything new, especially considering after a year and a half we still have very little by comparison to "the other faction".
CapnLogan has been taken off the new skins project for a bit anyway, but not before he finished the BoP line.
Thank you Capn Logan! He has even vowed (well, Ok, he said he might) to work on weekends to continue the Klingon skins project.
Now that's dedication. If we only had more who in Cryptic with the heart of a Klingon.
The point is, if Klingons are actually going to get something, it should be useful in the long term. You are only in Tier 1-4 for a limited amount of time, and it adds nothing to most players who are already at top tier. Dont get me wrong, its nice to see effort being put towards the KDF, but the content should actually be useful and add to the length of the game.
The point is, if Klingons are actually going to get something, it should be useful in the long term. You are only in Tier 1-4 for a limited amount of time, and it adds nothing to most players who are already at top tier. Dont get me wrong, its nice to see effort being put towards the KDF, but the content should actually be useful and add to the length of the game.
you do have a point, but endgame content is already being worked on, and will come when they think it's ready... these variants are to hold us over for awhile, along with the next Featured Series and the Enterprise-F (for Feds to fly, and KDF to blow up )
oh, and the Duty Officer system as well true it's not 'true' content, but it'll definitely give us stuff to do and stuff to explore
These new skins will sit on a shelf for as long as it takes to get a new skin for every Fed ship 1st, some more reworked Feds episodes, some more Fed costume pieces, perhaps another featured series or 2, new Fed ships, disable some more KDF content, more Fed ships, more reworked Fed episodes, and then they will be offered in the c-store, as part of another "great" KDF update.
sounds accurate. I mainly play Fed, but I love my kling characters, and really wish they would get more love. In all honesty, feds are spoiled rotten when it comes to content, they need to be shelfed completely and let the staff focus on fixing up KDF before pushing any new fed stuff.
i can understand you guys are skeptic... but still, we can trust CaptLogan to give us these new variants, whether they become c-store or not because of the other devs
Anything that helps the KDF is good for me and all who like flying Klingon.
Not all Klingons are receptive to change when its slow but that is the way it goes sometimes,I thankyou for any attempt to make it better.
Qapla
Actually no, my question was whether you'd just use Tier 2-4 as skins for either of the existing end game 'raiders' or whether you'd want them to be designed as entirely separate but similar raider class ships, with their own hull strengths, turn radiuses and crew numbers.
If you compare the B'Rel refit vs the Hegh'ta, then we can say that:
The B'Rel refit is a "Light Raider".
The Hegh'ta is a "Heavy Raider".
If we ignore for the moment the fact that the B'Rel's cloak is broken, the ship is still viable at T5 and displays a slightly different way of playing a Raider.
That means the T2 and T3 BoP's could be added as T5 "Light Raiders" with the same stats as the B'Rel, while the T4 BoP could be added as a "Heavy Raider" with the same stats as the Hegh'Ta.
This sounds like an answer to my question. It sounds like you're suggesting Tier 2 and 3 be used as alternative skins for the B'Rel and Tier 4 be an alternative skin for the Hegh'Ta, lets assume that's the case because it's far easier to do.
Its then just a matter of defining what the difference is between a Heavy and Light Raptor, and Heavy and Light Cruiser, and assigning the ships in the same way as the BoP above.
Well, Raptors sure, a 'light raptor' need be no more dramatic a change than the difference between a Federation Fleet Escort and the Defiant-R. Give the 'light raptor' more manueverability, less crew, less survivability. But Cruisers I suspect will be a whole other ball of wax.
Taking the Cruiser, for example, a "Light Cruiser" might sport 8 weapon slots but have weaker hull than the Vor'Cha, 1 less console, but use Battle Cloak. So 1vs1 a Light Cruiser will probably not defeat a Heavy Cruiser, but its viable enough and different enough to still be an available option.
So the K'Tanco and K'T'Inga would slot into Light Cruiser, while the Vor'Cha is already a Heavy Cruiser.
I'm not a raptor captain so I'm not even going to attempt to define a difference between a Light and Heavy Raptor, but you get the idea.
Also, having a definable "Light Cruiser" is a good excuse to finally add the K'Vort Cruiser. Sorry, couldn't resist dropping the K'Vort in :P
Ignoring that the Vorcha-R already feels like a "light cruiser" being smaller and more manueverable than just about any other cruiser in game. I want you to know I like the idea of an end game viable "light cruiser" that's even smaller than the Vorcha-R. I've suggested something similiar in the form of 'destroyers.' Having said that here goes.
Your idea can and will go one of two ways. If I take what you're describing literally then we'd have the K'Tinga, a ship the size of a Qin Raptor, made as manueverable as a Vorcha-R or we'd have the K'Tanco, a ship marginally larger than the B'Rel, as manueverable as the Vorcha-R. Both of these small ships being as slow and tough as you describe would be very very strange.
But if they resolve that issue by increasing manueverability at the expense of even more hull strength, added to the battle cloak, then what you are describing is so different from what the Klingons have as to then be a sixth ship classification and cryptic is not going to go through the effort of balancing an entirely new ship classification to be solely used by the KDF.
Ignoring that the Vorcha-R already feels like a "light cruiser" being smaller and more manueverable than just about any other cruiser in game. I want you to know I like the idea of an end game viable "light cruiser" that's even smaller than the Vorcha-R. I've suggested something similiar in the form of 'destroyers.' Having said that here goes.
Your idea can and will go one of two ways. If I take what you're describing literally then we'd have the K'Tinga, a ship the size of a Qin Raptor, made as manueverable as a Vorcha-R or we'd have the K'Tanco, a ship marginally larger than the B'Rel, as manueverable as the Vorcha-R. Both of these small ships being as slow and tough as you describe would be very very strange.
But if they resolve that issue by increasing manueverability at the expense of even more hull strength, added to the battle cloak, then what you are describing is so different from what the Klingons have as to then be a sixth ship classification and cryptic is not going to go through the effort of balancing an entirely new ship classification to be solely used by the KDF.
Regarding the Vor'Cha, while its size compared to a Negh'Var might make you think "light cruiser" the fact that it is arguably more powerful offensively than the Negh'Var pretty much ensures that it would stick as a Heavy Cruiser.
Effectively, the difference between Heavy and Light should be greater speed vs lower hull.
The Vor'Cha sits on the minimal hull/maximum turn of a Heavy Cruiser, while the Negh'Var sits on the other end with max hull/minimal turn.
In comparison, the K'Tanco would be at the low hull/high turn and the K'T'Inga high hull/low turn - with those hull and turn rates sitting somewhere between a raptor and vor'cha.
I don't think it would be odd for ships of that size to be that powerful at all.
Ok the word "variants" means what? We see this word show up from time to time on the forums and even dev posts.
Q: USS_Excalibur Will there be more ability consoles like the MVAM console?
A: Yes. The ship design team is working on adding new ship variants at different tiers that will have special ability consoles that can be removed and added to other ships as you progress. Several of these are scheduled for release in September.
So when I hear the word variants I like of different things for the same thing as in new costumes for existing ships.
My friend hears the word and he thinks of existing ship being rebuilt with new load outs and unique attributes.
So when you hear the word variant how is it more commonly used?
The point is, if Klingons are actually going to get something, it should be useful in the long term. You are only in Tier 1-4 for a limited amount of time, and it adds nothing to most players who are already at top tier. Dont get me wrong, its nice to see effort being put towards the KDF, but the content should actually be useful and add to the length of the game.
I see your point but it's not quite as bad if combined with vampiric_hoshi's suggestion that ALL Klingon ships get a T5 refit/variant. I happen to agree that works for the KDF, who DON'T have a huge ship variety and instead focus on ship designs that will last for hundreds of years.
Comments
Depending on the how I don't think there's going to be much mobbing, pushing of shoving of any kind.
At least among the KDF playerbase.
The Feds will probabaly scream murder because Cryptic siad the'll not get a T5 TOS Connie...
Anyway I'm in as long as the stats of those refitted lower tier ship reflect that they are refits of lower-tier ships.
Don't get me wrong I don't want them to be weaker than "native" T5 ships.
I want them to fill specific niches and show where they come from.
I'd love a T5 K't'inga but I'd find a T5 K't'inga that can tank as well as a Vor'cha, not ot mention a Negh'var ridicilous.
That's why I foe example proposed it to have stats similar to a ship of a size closer to it, i.e. the Raptor.
Same should be true for a T5 refit of the T2 Raptor which would not make much sense having the same amount of weapons and hull as a T5 Raptor, it shold have other strenghts in its facour like some nice high-end electronics (represented by "blue" slots) to make the enemy's lif miserable while being light-footed due to its small size.
It would give us a well-rounded fleet with some cool toys to play with without turning the KDF into a ridicilous circus.
And, as you put it, there would be several varied ways for very varied player-types among every class to beat both the odds and the enemy.
Or the TLDR version:
The further away the ship's original tier is from T5, the more the refitted ship should differ in function and capabilites from "native" T5 ships of the same category.
Not every ship would work well at T5 as has already been pointed out. The K'Tinga would make an odd T5 cruiser while the K'Tanco would be impossible as a T5 cruiser.
So let me ask about your idea from a completely different direction. Taking BoPs, the ship classification that this, arguably, would work best with. Would you want the T2-4 BoP's to be alternative skins for either the B'Rel or the Hegh'Ta or completely different ships?
The B'Rel refitalready answers your question.
If you compare the B'Rel refit vs the Hegh'ta, then we can say that:
The B'Rel refit is a "Light Raider".
The Hegh'ta is a "Heavy Raider".
If we ignore for the moment the fact that the B'Rel's cloak is broken, the ship is still viable at T5 and displays a slightly different way of playing a Raider.
That means the T2 and T3 BoP's could be added as T5 "Light Raiders" with the same stats as the B'Rel, while the T4 BoP could be added as a "Heavy Raider" with the same stats as the Hegh'Ta.
Its then just a matter of defining what the difference is between a Heavy and Light Raptor, and Heavy and Light Cruiser, and assigning the ships in the same way as the BoP above.
Taking the Cruiser, for example, a "Light Cruiser" might sport 8 weapon slots but have weaker hull than the Vor'Cha, 1 less console, but use Battle Cloak. So 1vs1 a Light Cruiser will probably not defeat a Heavy Cruiser, but its viable enough and different enough to still be an available option.
So the K'Tanco and K'T'Inga would slot into Light Cruiser, while the Vor'Cha is already a Heavy Cruiser.
I'm not a raptor captain so I'm not even going to attempt to define a difference between a Light and Heavy Raptor, but you get the idea.
Also, having a definable "Light Cruiser" is a good excuse to finally add the K'Vort Cruiser. Sorry, couldn't resist dropping the K'Vort in :P
Oh, and it's outright confirmed that there are MORE KDF ship skins than Fed
Thank you
you're welcome
I was compairing CLASS type ships not Variant costumes for those ships. That is a bigger difference since those ship classes are the same regardless if they are using one visual representation or another or a combination of such things. Now the shuttles on the other hand I suppose are something else I, again, forgot to consider. But the other stuff is more of a costume issue then just a ship issue.
Good news and it also seems fair since there are so few KDF skins to begin with.
This is great information - although informal, it definitely brightens the future for the KDF!
Yeah, that's what the information states so far..
Yup, but tehere were leak month ago on tribble with new Brel skin for lower and tier 5, here
Don't the Feds have like a biziliion ship skin/options already? dang, greedy...
I don't know how you rank to above T5 ships as a Klingon in a few hours...
Most folks who have to work and do all that other RL stuff only have a few hours a week to play.
I'm happy that Cryptic as a whole is giving the Klingons just about anything new, especially considering after a year and a half we still have very little by comparison to "the other faction".
CapnLogan has been taken off the new skins project for a bit anyway, but not before he finished the BoP line.
Thank you Capn Logan! He has even vowed (well, Ok, he said he might) to work on weekends to continue the Klingon skins project.
Now that's dedication. If we only had more who in Cryptic with the heart of a Klingon.
oh, and the Duty Officer system as well
sounds accurate. I mainly play Fed, but I love my kling characters, and really wish they would get more love. In all honesty, feds are spoiled rotten when it comes to content, they need to be shelfed completely and let the staff focus on fixing up KDF before pushing any new fed stuff.
I must say, I find that thing kinda goofy-lookin'.
Not all Klingons are receptive to change when its slow but that is the way it goes sometimes,I thankyou for any attempt to make it better.
Qapla
I'm not arguing that...I have Klingon characters, and yeah, not a whole helluva lot of options. Still, that thing is goofy-lookin'. :P
Actually no, my question was whether you'd just use Tier 2-4 as skins for either of the existing end game 'raiders' or whether you'd want them to be designed as entirely separate but similar raider class ships, with their own hull strengths, turn radiuses and crew numbers.
This sounds like an answer to my question. It sounds like you're suggesting Tier 2 and 3 be used as alternative skins for the B'Rel and Tier 4 be an alternative skin for the Hegh'Ta, lets assume that's the case because it's far easier to do.
Well, Raptors sure, a 'light raptor' need be no more dramatic a change than the difference between a Federation Fleet Escort and the Defiant-R. Give the 'light raptor' more manueverability, less crew, less survivability. But Cruisers I suspect will be a whole other ball of wax.
Ignoring that the Vorcha-R already feels like a "light cruiser" being smaller and more manueverable than just about any other cruiser in game. I want you to know I like the idea of an end game viable "light cruiser" that's even smaller than the Vorcha-R. I've suggested something similiar in the form of 'destroyers.' Having said that here goes.
Your idea can and will go one of two ways. If I take what you're describing literally then we'd have the K'Tinga, a ship the size of a Qin Raptor, made as manueverable as a Vorcha-R or we'd have the K'Tanco, a ship marginally larger than the B'Rel, as manueverable as the Vorcha-R. Both of these small ships being as slow and tough as you describe would be very very strange.
But if they resolve that issue by increasing manueverability at the expense of even more hull strength, added to the battle cloak, then what you are describing is so different from what the Klingons have as to then be a sixth ship classification and cryptic is not going to go through the effort of balancing an entirely new ship classification to be solely used by the KDF.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3658246#post3658246
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3658358#post3658358
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3658289#post3658289
Regarding the Vor'Cha, while its size compared to a Negh'Var might make you think "light cruiser" the fact that it is arguably more powerful offensively than the Negh'Var pretty much ensures that it would stick as a Heavy Cruiser.
Effectively, the difference between Heavy and Light should be greater speed vs lower hull.
The Vor'Cha sits on the minimal hull/maximum turn of a Heavy Cruiser, while the Negh'Var sits on the other end with max hull/minimal turn.
In comparison, the K'Tanco would be at the low hull/high turn and the K'T'Inga high hull/low turn - with those hull and turn rates sitting somewhere between a raptor and vor'cha.
I don't think it would be odd for ships of that size to be that powerful at all.
Q: USS_Excalibur Will there be more ability consoles like the MVAM console?
A: Yes. The ship design team is working on adding new ship variants at different tiers that will have special ability consoles that can be removed and added to other ships as you progress. Several of these are scheduled for release in September.
So when I hear the word variants I like of different things for the same thing as in new costumes for existing ships.
My friend hears the word and he thinks of existing ship being rebuilt with new load outs and unique attributes.
So when you hear the word variant how is it more commonly used?
A variant is full new skin for an existing ship, with all of the different sections broken down, allowing you to mix n match.
I see your point but it's not quite as bad if combined with vampiric_hoshi's suggestion that ALL Klingon ships get a T5 refit/variant. I happen to agree that works for the KDF, who DON'T have a huge ship variety and instead focus on ship designs that will last for hundreds of years.