One factor that seems to play a big part in determining whether or not something is a nerf seems to be emotions. There is a big difference, if we could be objective for a moment, between a nerf and a fix.
And then grav well got rebuffed. IIRC a fully spec'd GW 3 is actually stronger than before.
GW3? What GW3? You know I never use such a worthless skill
Anyways, to all my fellow pvpers, like Hale said let's not be too hasty in nerfing sci. Multiple applications of any power or combination of powers is meant to be... well... powerful. This is why you have teammates and the other side has teammates.
Scram sens can use a once over, but all I'm saying is that if you nerf multiple power application in general, make it apply to tac and eng powers too. Ever seen what 2-3 aux to SIF + eng team + 1-2 extend shields does to a ship being focused?
Although, I would reverse my opinion and heartily agree if pvp were to become like this
Was sci spam buffed without my knowledge? I thought it had always been there...
IIRC, it's been nerfed far more than it's been buffed since game launch.
If people are coordinating sci spam - good for them. I don't see how it's worse than lawltank cruisers cross-healing each other to invincibility or escorts timing an instagib focus alpha strike. The sci annoyance factor makes it seem more effective than it really is (although props to scramble sensors for making in to the FOTM lamechain).
That being said, I never run any of my ships without at least one sci team
This about sums it up. Its hard to be mad at Sci whom had asked for love for alongtime now, to finally get it and be more effective for it.
Beside I never thought Sci was bad to begin with if used properly.
ABSOLUTE irony. First people complain about the breen set being too weak and now its a spam power and needs a nerf.... This is irony at it's finest. Leave it be. Its just the flavour of the month.
Kinda what I thought too when reading this thread.
5 ships using 1 or 2 powers will always seem OP. Doesn't matter what it is. FaW, drain, or SV. Cryptic will have to be the one that has to stop the NERF calls via ignoring them. Right now? They provide instant gratification and they work. Bad precident. If this keeps up and Cryptic falls in line with the constant NERF this, NERF that, we'll see an NGE in the future just to comply and "make it easier to balance". Already calls in this thread to take away some of the powers slots available. Unlocked Jedi, anyone?
Cryptic development, see what you started? And will you "go all the way" with an NGE of your own? Dstahl, do you remember the april fools joke? "Star Trek Babies Online"?
(and no1 can say I'm taking up for my own this time, I don't even have a sci toon or a sci ship)
I think it's understood that you can't make everyone happy about everything all of the time. It's a difficult but necessary task to sift through the complaints to find what is legitimate and then correct it.
I think it's understood that you can't make everyone happy about everything all of the time. It's a difficult but necessary task to sift through the complaints to find what is legitimate and then correct it.
Believe me Steve, it won't stop. EV1 wants to WIN! Escorts get Crusiers NERFed, Escorts amd Crusiers get Sci NERFED, Sci retaliates and gets ? NERFed and so on, and so on, and so on. Everyone posts their "numbers" and their "testing" to justify the NERF calls. One day, a developer wakes up with THE "great idea". "Hey, it takes going thru 4000 issues to NERF FaW, that's a lot of work. Let's CHANGE the entire combat system so we can balance easier".
The beginning of the end. SWG, AoC, EU, etc . It all started this exact way. And to be honest, you can trace it all back to the respective PVP communities never ending quest for balance. (mostly due to the fact that they lost a match somewhere) I know, I used to be one of them until I seen what it got me.
Why is it when a player uses Tac abilities its called skill, but when a player uses Sci abilities its called spam?? :mad:
You know what?... DEAL WITH IT. :cool:
A science officer in a science vessel is all about debuffs. Of course we're going to stack stuff that has the same effect as thats how you get results. In the same way a Tac would run APA + APO + GDF + etc...., we run Tykens + Siphon + Target Subsystems + etc... This isn't spam, its strategy.
There are counters to ALL these scenarios. Frankly, if you can't cope with a little power drain then thats actually YOUR problem. L2P.
tbh guys I don't understand the people here who whine about various BO abilities being OP.
There will ALWAYS be OP powers.. there will ALWAYS be people whining about whatever.
One thing never changes: Good teamwork > all
as it has been proven over and over and over again. Back in the day, sci powers were even more OP.. the SNB was practically an IWIN button. But what happened? Fleets that executed good teamwork continued to paste over all sci BoP teams etc.
tbh guys I don't understand the people here who whine about various BO abilities being OP.
There will ALWAYS be OP powers.. there will ALWAYS be people whining about whatever.
One thing never changes: Good teamwork > all
as it has been proven over and over and over again. Back in the day, sci powers were even more OP.. the SNB was practically an IWIN button. But what happened? Fleets that executed good teamwork continued to paste over all sci BoP teams etc.
True to a point... The 5 man escort teams and 5 man cruiser teams are almost always completely dominated by the debuffing power of an all sci ship team. That's not what I call balanced.
True to a point... The 5 man escort teams and 5 man cruiser teams are almost always completely dominated by the debuffing power of an all sci ship team. That's not what I call balanced.
actually a 5-man cruiser team does just as well as a 5-man science.
5 science ships only work if their skills overlap. of course 5 tykens rifts will be great. but rarely do you have 5 science ships all specced for the same power, and all 5 enemy ships in range.
a 5-man cruiser faw team is just as good. as long as they don't bunch up to get hit by the sci aoe, they can do very well against an all-sci
I had one game where we had sci, tac, and eng players all in cruisers vs a 5-man sci team, and we won. not by a lot, but because we played smart and communicated. 5-men science team are powerful yes, but skill and teamwork win out.
so don't say an all-sci team is overpowered compared to 5 escorts or 5 cruisers. they are all competitive with each other*
a really good cruiser-faw team is currently a little op, i'll admit. but that might just be my frustration talking
An all sci vessel team isn't the ideal setup by any means either. A cooperative team of 2 escorts and a mix of sci vessels and cruisers trump them.
People who complain about sci "spam" should actually fly a science vessel once in a while. A science ship isn't meant to have massively powerful weapons, they're supposed to find alternate means of winning. I'll subnuke you, tachyon beam you, hit you with CPB 3, and your shields will be gone. There won't be anything you can do about it. If I'm with a good team, my escort friends should pick you off in seconds...but if its left to me, Ill drop a nice tricobalt on you and put you at 2% hull.
All with 25 power to weapons.
But keep in mind, my powers are on a significant cool down, and the team that facerolled the OP didn't think ahead far enough to realie that they blew all their skills on one target, leaving them otherwise vulnerable to the rest of the team. If his team had focus fired one of the weaker ones (typically a D'Kyr), they would have stood a better chance. If they had a few escorts, it would have been even easier. Point being, sci spam isn't a problem, learning tactics to survive is.
actually a 5-man cruiser team does just as well as a 5-man science.
5 science ships only work if their skills overlap. of course 5 tykens rifts will be great. but rarely do you have 5 science ships all specced for the same power, and all 5 enemy ships in range.
a 5-man cruiser faw team is just as good. as long as they don't bunch up to get hit by the sci aoe, they can do very well against an all-sci
I had one game where we had sci, tac, and eng players all in cruisers vs a 5-man sci team, and we won. not by a lot, but because we played smart and communicated. 5-men science team are powerful yes, but skill and teamwork win out.
so don't say an all-sci team is overpowered compared to 5 escorts or 5 cruisers. they are all competitive with each other*
a really good cruiser-faw team is currently a little op, i'll admit. but that might just be my frustration talking
While your points are very valid, I disagree with the all 5 escort team being very effective. debuffing and healing seems to outdo raw DPS by leaps and bounds... unless those same 5 escorts use Fire at Will.
I've been in a coordinated all escort team before. The results were... less than desirable.
-stands up- my name is Mai Kai the Science Guy, and i'm tired of being prosecuted for being a science player and accused of being a spammer. I run no duplicate powers yet get called a "science spammer". I just want love and peace for all maaaaaan.
Over powered skills are only suffered by those that lose. No one ever complains when their setup wins. (Okay, some do). If true balance were ever achieved, no match would ever end. The only way that everyone will be happy is if the Devs find a way for everyone to win all the time.
...
And to be honest, you can trace it all back to the respective PVP communities never ending quest for balance. ...
are we talking of pvp players, seeking for a challenge, knowing a certain new setup will beat other setups easily and will be beaten by certain setups, and knowing, without a teamwork they will lose.
or are we talking about pvp players, which are just a bunch of cpt. james t. "i kill you all" kirk , and whoever beats me is a cheater?
btw... when will be weapon fired be nerfed *i.g. 30 seconds gc on weaponfire*? i can't believe that 5 ships killed me, while i had no shilds equipped...
weaponfire is OP
An all sci vessel team isn't the ideal setup by any means either. A cooperative team of 2 escorts and a mix of sci vessels and cruisers trump them.
People who complain about sci "spam" should actually fly a science vessel once in a while. A science ship isn't meant to have massively powerful weapons, they're supposed to find alternate means of winning. I'll subnuke you, tachyon beam you, hit you with CPB 3, and your shields will be gone. There won't be anything you can do about it. If I'm with a good team, my escort friends should pick you off in seconds...but if its left to me, Ill drop a nice tricobalt on you and put you at 2% hull.
All with 25 power to weapons.
But keep in mind, my powers are on a significant cool down, and the team that facerolled the OP didn't think ahead far enough to realie that they blew all their skills on one target, leaving them otherwise vulnerable to the rest of the team. If his team had focus fired one of the weaker ones (typically a D'Kyr), they would have stood a better chance. If they had a few escorts, it would have been even easier. Point being, sci spam isn't a problem, learning tactics to survive is.
Only somewhat true..
Science vessels can do extreme damage, as well as extreme healing.
On my Tac SV, Ive outscored every single ship in both arenas and C&Hs more than just a few times.. Generally it lies in the top3 in damage.
My healing SV quite easily outheals the vast majority of healing zombies, and are able to atleast match the best healing SCs out there. This while keeping the Commander slot for some nastyness.
The drawback is that it neither have spikedamage or healing (though a good TBR3 run can do damage extremely fast, and FBP3 is as potent as the ship shooting at me (which multiple Defiant captains can attest to)
-stands up- my name is Mai Kai the Science Guy, and i'm tired of being prosecuted for being a science player and accused of being a spammer. I run no duplicate powers yet get called a "science spammer". I just want love and peace for all maaaaaan.
Dont you know that using SS3 and GW at the same time is spamming?
Its just like Tac captains (shame on me) is spamming Tac skills - I mean, Alpha3, GDF, FoMM, Beta3, CRF2, BOL3 and HYT1 All at the same time? Shame on Tac spammers!
This might be an appropiate responce when people complain of Scispamming
Over powered skills are only suffered by those that lose. No one ever complains when their setup wins. (Okay, some do). If true balance were ever achieved, no match would ever end. The only way that everyone will be happy is if the Devs find a way for everyone to win all the time.
No, that is wrong. Rock, Paper and Scissors are balanced, but there is a clear end.
Some complaints we encounter regarind balance is just "but rock beats scissors, that's unfair": Those are not a problem.
Other complains are: But rock can beat both paper and scissors! That's a problem.
Of course things are more complex than just rock, paper, scissors. There are a lot more figures to consider (and there are also "figure groups" to consider). That is what makes the first and the second complaints so difficult to analyze and distinguish. And it will probalby make it impossible to find the perfect solution.
But the perfect solution is not that teams can never beat each other. In a game where you can't get healing, or at least your resources of healing are finite over the course of a game, someone has to lose in the end. The best case scenario is that the outcome is purely defined by player skill.
Requested Solutions close enough to perfect can include:
Two specific (different or identifical) team setups can never beat each other and are forever locked in a stalemate.
Two specific (different or identicial) team setups always favor one of them.
Two specific (different or identicial) team setups can end with a win or loss.
The important goal is:
There are no specific team setups that can reliable (or just most of the time) beat all team setups.
The goal doesn't have to be:
Every team setup works against some team setups. (It is okay if some are just too bad to work...)
This is true. I've seen several players effectively use hybrid damage/healing builds. Now if only they would tell me where they got their hax...
Extra Commander Boff Bug/Exploit
If you are lets say a healer and you could have another 4 Boff skills that do damage. Or you are a damage dealer and you could have 4 more skills for either CC/Debuffing or healing.
Dont you know that using SS3 and GW at the same time is spamming?
Its just like Tac captains (shame on me) is spamming Tac skills - I mean, Alpha3, GDF, FoMM, Beta3, CRF2, BOL3 and HYT1 All at the same time? Shame on Tac spammers!
This might be an appropiate responce when people complain of Scispamming
except i use charged burst 3 and wave 1..... only have a ss1 that lasts at most 17 seconds
This is true. I've seen several players effectively use hybrid damage/healing builds. Now if only they would tell me where they got their hax...
My Sci/RSV, while not as omfgwtfpwn as others (such as Mel), puts out a fairly impressive amount of damage. 5 Beams + Sensor Analysis + 114 weapons power ftw!
are we talking of pvp players, seeking for a challenge, knowing a certain new setup will beat other setups easily and will be beaten by certain setups, and knowing, without a teamwork they will lose.
or are we talking about pvp players, which are just a bunch of cpt. james t. "i kill you all" kirk , and whoever beats me is a cheater?
btw... when will be weapon fired be nerfed *i.g. 30 seconds gc on weaponfire*? i can't believe that 5 ships killed me, while i had no shilds equipped...
weaponfire is OP
I'm actualy not a big fan of "rock, paper, scissors" type of development for PVP. "Rock" will always see "Paper" as OP, as they're designed to beat them, and the NERF calls, complaints, and forum crys will be never ending. In a game that makes duels possible, I've seen nothing but problems with this type of development. After all, we only have 3 classes in this game, It's not like old SWG where you had 32 prof along with all the options that dual proffing gave you. 3 is pretty easy to balance v what other games have.
To answer your question, I would think the latter would be more of the problem. We've all seen them, the "We're Uber, we don't get beat, so if we do, they cheated or they DESERVE a NERF" crowd. From my experience, this mostly comes from the "I pwned joooo" crowd and not the guys who who use team work for the win and then say a "good match" at the end no matter if they win or lose the numbers battle.
NERFS are always like your last sentance. There will always be some1 that wants something NERFed to insure their "win" and they usualy have a specific agenda in mind. The problem with NERFs are that they provide instant gratification with no work on the others part. No changing up of their own builds, no grabbing another class to counter, etc. Cryptic got themselves into this problem and it will be Cryptic that can get themselves out of it. NERF calls are the normal, reacting to them and/or overreacting is the problem here and that doesn't come from the players.
No, that is wrong. Rock, Paper and Scissors are balanced, but there is a clear end.
Some complaints we encounter regarind balance is just "but rock beats scissors, that's unfair": Those are not a problem.
Other complains are: But rock can beat both paper and scissors! That's a problem.
Of course things are more complex than just rock, paper, scissors. There are a lot more figures to consider (and there are also "figure groups" to consider). That is what makes the first and the second complaints so difficult to analyze and distinguish. And it will probalby make it impossible to find the perfect solution.
But the perfect solution is not that teams can never beat each other. In a game where you can't get healing, or at least your resources of healing are finite over the course of a game, someone has to lose in the end. The best case scenario is that the outcome is purely defined by player skill.
Requested Solutions close enough to perfect can include:
Two specific (different or identifical) team setups can never beat each other and are forever locked in a stalemate.
Two specific (different or identicial) team setups always favor one of them.
Two specific (different or identicial) team setups can end with a win or loss.
The important goal is:
There are no specific team setups that can reliable (or just most of the time) beat all team setups.
The goal doesn't have to be:
Every team setup works against some team setups. (It is okay if some are just too bad to work...)
And the goal should definitely not be:
All team setups lead to a stale mate.
No wonder we're on extreme opposite sides of the FaW issue. We have very different views of "balance" in MMOs.
I've been in matches, in this game and others that came on as a complete stalemate and I have to admit that I had the absolute most "fun" out of those matches. A bunch more than if I just walked thru them like "Grant thru Richmond" or the opposite. In fact, I regarded those matches as very good development via the gaming company.
I doubt, in "group" STO space PVP if you could get a team match to be a stalemate. 5 - ? amount of ships focusing fire on 1 target is pretty much going to get a kill at 1 time or another.
No wonder we're on extreme opposite sides of the FaW issue. We have very different views of "balance" in MMOs.
I've been in matches, in this game and others that came on as a complete stalemate and I have to admit that I had the absolute most "fun" out of those matches. A bunch more than if I just walked thru them like "Grant thru Richmond" or the opposite. In fact, I regarded those matches as very good development via the gaming company.
I doubt, in "group" STO space PVP if you could get a team match to be a stalemate. 5 - ? amount of ships focusing fire on 1 target is pretty much going to get a kill at 1 time or another.
Really a stale mate, where no progress is made? I think these don't really exist, but I think they would not be fun. A true stale mate would require s point where no deaths occur. Wouldn't that get tiresome?
I know games that were _close_ to stale mates - but eventually some kills got in, and one side got a few more than the other (or at least got the final as the last). but those aren't stale mates. Those are "just" hard-fought matches with equal quality teams (I wouldn't necessarily say equally skilled - just that the mix of skill and abilities on one side together matches the skill and abilities on the other side. E.g. one might have had the powers, but the other knew how to use its better.)
Really a stale mate, where no progress is made? I think these don't really exist, but I think they would not be fun. A true stale mate would require s point where no deaths occur. Wouldn't that get tiresome?
I know games that were _close_ to stale mates - but eventually some kills got in, and one side got a few more than the other (or at least got the final as the last). but those aren't stale mates. Those are "just" hard-fought matches with equal quality teams (I wouldn't necessarily say equally skilled - just that the mix of skill and abilities on one side together matches the skill and abilities on the other side. E.g. one might have had the powers, but the other knew how to use its better.)
Yeah, stalemate lol. Like I said before, I doubt if any group/team match would end up as a stalemate in STO. Focusing fire is just that hard a nut to crack.
But, we have had a couple of nights here in the 12th, where we pitted our skills, builds, etc against each other in 1 v 1 or even 2 v 2s. I was actualy amazed at all the stalemates that occured in the 1v1s. Didn't really matter what class of ship, who was flying it, most of the really good builds with the people that knew how to use them ended up in stalemates. It was pretty plain to see when it was going to happen also. The battles went on until both parties gave up and called it a draw.
Always was fun to see some1 stand against my jedi over in SWG also.
I had a pretty much random match against Teaugel in an MVAE v my beam boat in the picture. That lasted over 10 minutes for the 1st kill (which after neither of us wanted to go on to the 5 mark) and the only deciding factor was I happened to get a good roll on a RS which did about 30K damage that he just quite couldn't recover from. Great match and a lot of fun. Very good balance there. In fact, I'd qualify that as a stalemate also as it took the "lucky crit roll" to get the kill.
Imo, I don't believe the points you two have brought up are mutually exclusive. It seems to me one's focus is on rock, paper, scissors of skills vs other skills where the other's is more of a macro fight vs fight where 1 collection of a variety of skills won't be an automatic "I win" vs another collection of a variety of skills given approx equal player skills. I believe both should be balanced and don't need to conflict with each other. That said if some choose to min/max in a highly specialized field as a team I wouldn't think it would be out of line to expect all face rolls 1 way or the other depending on if the otherside has the skills trained to counter.
Not to beat a dead horse w/FaW, but I believe where Esquire (and others) and myself (and others) differ is team FaW in arena matches removes too many skill/tactic options from the basket of multiple opp. ships.
On the other hand I could care less about the old team tb mine spam as a ship w/a couple of tbrs +apo &/or ph could clear the area quickly for themselves and the rest of the team and therefore I didn't see a pressing need to change it.
The issue is that some skills come off as hard to beat in PvP. They need to have two sets of stats for skills. Almost every successful pvp game does that. You have one set of effects and stats for PvE and another for PvP.
You can't nerf powers too much because of PvP or it break them in PvE, and vice versa.
The largest issue with PvP isn't so much skills or tactics, but lack of knowledge about these skills by players. You might surprised how many people don't know that Science Team removes Scramble Sensors and Subnuke.
I posted comments on a build the other day, where the guy didn't have Sci Team. He claimed that he didn't use it simply because the shield heal isn't as good as the ENG ones. When I mentioned that he should have it simply to remove those science debuffs, he quoted me and said it didn't work on SS or SB.
Someone else gladly pointed out that you have to manually target yourself to use SCI team or it would go to the target instead, because that is what SS does. At least five other people claimed they didn't know this either.
PvP would be much better on all sides, if players were simply taught how it works, what skills to use when, and shown the ropes of the PvP experience. I try to help most players I can, but the majority of players actually call names and flame new players for thier lack of knowledge and experience. Yeah, that really helps.
Those players then come here and claim foul of anything they don't understand. And we end up where we are now...everyone sick of the current PvP situation, but it's not for the reasons they claim. It's a trickle effect from them learning things. Sadly, these changes get made and as those players have learned the game and how to play, those effects are now overdone.
Anyway, Sci spam has always been there. It's just that few people played Sci because it was always considered the weakest since everyone classifed PvP by DPS. Now people realize the power of those Sci Ships, more people use them. It's not more effective or more danagerous than it ever was, just more people using it correctly.
Comments
GW3? What GW3? You know I never use such a worthless skill
Anyways, to all my fellow pvpers, like Hale said let's not be too hasty in nerfing sci. Multiple applications of any power or combination of powers is meant to be... well... powerful. This is why you have teammates and the other side has teammates.
Scram sens can use a once over, but all I'm saying is that if you nerf multiple power application in general, make it apply to tac and eng powers too. Ever seen what 2-3 aux to SIF + eng team + 1-2 extend shields does to a ship being focused?
Although, I would reverse my opinion and heartily agree if pvp were to become like this
This about sums it up. Its hard to be mad at Sci whom had asked for love for alongtime now, to finally get it and be more effective for it.
Beside I never thought Sci was bad to begin with if used properly.
Kinda what I thought too when reading this thread.
5 ships using 1 or 2 powers will always seem OP. Doesn't matter what it is. FaW, drain, or SV. Cryptic will have to be the one that has to stop the NERF calls via ignoring them. Right now? They provide instant gratification and they work. Bad precident. If this keeps up and Cryptic falls in line with the constant NERF this, NERF that, we'll see an NGE in the future just to comply and "make it easier to balance". Already calls in this thread to take away some of the powers slots available. Unlocked Jedi, anyone?
Cryptic development, see what you started? And will you "go all the way" with an NGE of your own? Dstahl, do you remember the april fools joke? "Star Trek Babies Online"?
(and no1 can say I'm taking up for my own this time, I don't even have a sci toon or a sci ship)
Believe me Steve, it won't stop. EV1 wants to WIN! Escorts get Crusiers NERFed, Escorts amd Crusiers get Sci NERFED, Sci retaliates and gets ? NERFed and so on, and so on, and so on. Everyone posts their "numbers" and their "testing" to justify the NERF calls. One day, a developer wakes up with THE "great idea". "Hey, it takes going thru 4000 issues to NERF FaW, that's a lot of work. Let's CHANGE the entire combat system so we can balance easier".
The beginning of the end. SWG, AoC, EU, etc . It all started this exact way. And to be honest, you can trace it all back to the respective PVP communities never ending quest for balance. (mostly due to the fact that they lost a match somewhere) I know, I used to be one of them until I seen what it got me.
Why is it when a player uses Tac abilities its called skill, but when a player uses Sci abilities its called spam?? :mad:
You know what?... DEAL WITH IT. :cool:
A science officer in a science vessel is all about debuffs. Of course we're going to stack stuff that has the same effect as thats how you get results. In the same way a Tac would run APA + APO + GDF + etc...., we run Tykens + Siphon + Target Subsystems + etc... This isn't spam, its strategy.
There are counters to ALL these scenarios. Frankly, if you can't cope with a little power drain then thats actually YOUR problem. L2P.
No. Fully specced GW3 is still weaker than before the original nerf.
There will ALWAYS be OP powers.. there will ALWAYS be people whining about whatever.
One thing never changes: Good teamwork > all
as it has been proven over and over and over again. Back in the day, sci powers were even more OP.. the SNB was practically an IWIN button. But what happened? Fleets that executed good teamwork continued to paste over all sci BoP teams etc.
True to a point... The 5 man escort teams and 5 man cruiser teams are almost always completely dominated by the debuffing power of an all sci ship team. That's not what I call balanced.
5 science ships only work if their skills overlap. of course 5 tykens rifts will be great. but rarely do you have 5 science ships all specced for the same power, and all 5 enemy ships in range.
a 5-man cruiser faw team is just as good. as long as they don't bunch up to get hit by the sci aoe, they can do very well against an all-sci
I had one game where we had sci, tac, and eng players all in cruisers vs a 5-man sci team, and we won. not by a lot, but because we played smart and communicated. 5-men science team are powerful yes, but skill and teamwork win out.
so don't say an all-sci team is overpowered compared to 5 escorts or 5 cruisers. they are all competitive with each other*
a really good cruiser-faw team is currently a little op, i'll admit. but that might just be my frustration talking
People who complain about sci "spam" should actually fly a science vessel once in a while. A science ship isn't meant to have massively powerful weapons, they're supposed to find alternate means of winning. I'll subnuke you, tachyon beam you, hit you with CPB 3, and your shields will be gone. There won't be anything you can do about it. If I'm with a good team, my escort friends should pick you off in seconds...but if its left to me, Ill drop a nice tricobalt on you and put you at 2% hull.
All with 25 power to weapons.
But keep in mind, my powers are on a significant cool down, and the team that facerolled the OP didn't think ahead far enough to realie that they blew all their skills on one target, leaving them otherwise vulnerable to the rest of the team. If his team had focus fired one of the weaker ones (typically a D'Kyr), they would have stood a better chance. If they had a few escorts, it would have been even easier. Point being, sci spam isn't a problem, learning tactics to survive is.
While your points are very valid, I disagree with the all 5 escort team being very effective. debuffing and healing seems to outdo raw DPS by leaps and bounds... unless those same 5 escorts use Fire at Will.
I've been in a coordinated all escort team before. The results were... less than desirable.
are we talking of pvp players, seeking for a challenge, knowing a certain new setup will beat other setups easily and will be beaten by certain setups, and knowing, without a teamwork they will lose.
or are we talking about pvp players, which are just a bunch of cpt. james t. "i kill you all" kirk , and whoever beats me is a cheater?
btw... when will be weapon fired be nerfed *i.g. 30 seconds gc on weaponfire*? i can't believe that 5 ships killed me, while i had no shilds equipped...
weaponfire is OP
Only somewhat true..
Science vessels can do extreme damage, as well as extreme healing.
On my Tac SV, Ive outscored every single ship in both arenas and C&Hs more than just a few times.. Generally it lies in the top3 in damage.
My healing SV quite easily outheals the vast majority of healing zombies, and are able to atleast match the best healing SCs out there. This while keeping the Commander slot for some nastyness.
The drawback is that it neither have spikedamage or healing (though a good TBR3 run can do damage extremely fast, and FBP3 is as potent as the ship shooting at me (which multiple Defiant captains can attest to)
Dont you know that using SS3 and GW at the same time is spamming?
Its just like Tac captains (shame on me) is spamming Tac skills - I mean, Alpha3, GDF, FoMM, Beta3, CRF2, BOL3 and HYT1 All at the same time? Shame on Tac spammers!
This might be an appropiate responce when people complain of Scispamming
What I do is fairly simple:
TBR3 or FBP3 - Rest healing skills (*perhaps* dual TBR)
Tacs and Sci can do this pretty effectively, since they can debuff, run full aux and have full potential heals and damage.
Engs are more survivable, but cannot debuff really (FoMM / Scan)
I
No, that is wrong. Rock, Paper and Scissors are balanced, but there is a clear end.
Some complaints we encounter regarind balance is just "but rock beats scissors, that's unfair": Those are not a problem.
Other complains are: But rock can beat both paper and scissors! That's a problem.
Of course things are more complex than just rock, paper, scissors. There are a lot more figures to consider (and there are also "figure groups" to consider). That is what makes the first and the second complaints so difficult to analyze and distinguish. And it will probalby make it impossible to find the perfect solution.
But the perfect solution is not that teams can never beat each other. In a game where you can't get healing, or at least your resources of healing are finite over the course of a game, someone has to lose in the end. The best case scenario is that the outcome is purely defined by player skill.
Requested Solutions close enough to perfect can include:
- Two specific (different or identifical) team setups can never beat each other and are forever locked in a stalemate.
- Two specific (different or identicial) team setups always favor one of them.
- Two specific (different or identicial) team setups can end with a win or loss.
The important goal is:The goal doesn't have to be:
And the goal should definitely not be:
Extra Commander Boff Bug/Exploit
If you are lets say a healer and you could have another 4 Boff skills that do damage. Or you are a damage dealer and you could have 4 more skills for either CC/Debuffing or healing.
except i use charged burst 3 and wave 1..... only have a ss1 that lasts at most 17 seconds
My Sci/RSV, while not as omfgwtfpwn as others (such as Mel), puts out a fairly impressive amount of damage. 5 Beams + Sensor Analysis + 114 weapons power ftw!
And then I have my FBP to dish out moar pew pew.
I'm actualy not a big fan of "rock, paper, scissors" type of development for PVP. "Rock" will always see "Paper" as OP, as they're designed to beat them, and the NERF calls, complaints, and forum crys will be never ending. In a game that makes duels possible, I've seen nothing but problems with this type of development. After all, we only have 3 classes in this game, It's not like old SWG where you had 32 prof along with all the options that dual proffing gave you. 3 is pretty easy to balance v what other games have.
To answer your question, I would think the latter would be more of the problem. We've all seen them, the "We're Uber, we don't get beat, so if we do, they cheated or they DESERVE a NERF" crowd. From my experience, this mostly comes from the "I pwned joooo" crowd and not the guys who who use team work for the win and then say a "good match" at the end no matter if they win or lose the numbers battle.
NERFS are always like your last sentance. There will always be some1 that wants something NERFed to insure their "win" and they usualy have a specific agenda in mind. The problem with NERFs are that they provide instant gratification with no work on the others part. No changing up of their own builds, no grabbing another class to counter, etc. Cryptic got themselves into this problem and it will be Cryptic that can get themselves out of it. NERF calls are the normal, reacting to them and/or overreacting is the problem here and that doesn't come from the players.
No wonder we're on extreme opposite sides of the FaW issue. We have very different views of "balance" in MMOs.
I've been in matches, in this game and others that came on as a complete stalemate and I have to admit that I had the absolute most "fun" out of those matches. A bunch more than if I just walked thru them like "Grant thru Richmond" or the opposite. In fact, I regarded those matches as very good development via the gaming company.
I doubt, in "group" STO space PVP if you could get a team match to be a stalemate. 5 - ? amount of ships focusing fire on 1 target is pretty much going to get a kill at 1 time or another.
Really a stale mate, where no progress is made? I think these don't really exist, but I think they would not be fun. A true stale mate would require s point where no deaths occur. Wouldn't that get tiresome?
I know games that were _close_ to stale mates - but eventually some kills got in, and one side got a few more than the other (or at least got the final as the last). but those aren't stale mates. Those are "just" hard-fought matches with equal quality teams (I wouldn't necessarily say equally skilled - just that the mix of skill and abilities on one side together matches the skill and abilities on the other side. E.g. one might have had the powers, but the other knew how to use its better.)
Yeah, stalemate lol. Like I said before, I doubt if any group/team match would end up as a stalemate in STO. Focusing fire is just that hard a nut to crack.
But, we have had a couple of nights here in the 12th, where we pitted our skills, builds, etc against each other in 1 v 1 or even 2 v 2s. I was actualy amazed at all the stalemates that occured in the 1v1s. Didn't really matter what class of ship, who was flying it, most of the really good builds with the people that knew how to use them ended up in stalemates. It was pretty plain to see when it was going to happen also. The battles went on until both parties gave up and called it a draw.
Always was fun to see some1 stand against my jedi over in SWG also.
I had a pretty much random match against Teaugel in an MVAE v my beam boat in the picture. That lasted over 10 minutes for the 1st kill (which after neither of us wanted to go on to the 5 mark) and the only deciding factor was I happened to get a good roll on a RS which did about 30K damage that he just quite couldn't recover from. Great match and a lot of fun. Very good balance there. In fact, I'd qualify that as a stalemate also as it took the "lucky crit roll" to get the kill.
Not to beat a dead horse w/FaW, but I believe where Esquire (and others) and myself (and others) differ is team FaW in arena matches removes too many skill/tactic options from the basket of multiple opp. ships.
On the other hand I could care less about the old team tb mine spam as a ship w/a couple of tbrs +apo &/or ph could clear the area quickly for themselves and the rest of the team and therefore I didn't see a pressing need to change it.
You can't nerf powers too much because of PvP or it break them in PvE, and vice versa.
The largest issue with PvP isn't so much skills or tactics, but lack of knowledge about these skills by players. You might surprised how many people don't know that Science Team removes Scramble Sensors and Subnuke.
I posted comments on a build the other day, where the guy didn't have Sci Team. He claimed that he didn't use it simply because the shield heal isn't as good as the ENG ones. When I mentioned that he should have it simply to remove those science debuffs, he quoted me and said it didn't work on SS or SB.
Someone else gladly pointed out that you have to manually target yourself to use SCI team or it would go to the target instead, because that is what SS does. At least five other people claimed they didn't know this either.
PvP would be much better on all sides, if players were simply taught how it works, what skills to use when, and shown the ropes of the PvP experience. I try to help most players I can, but the majority of players actually call names and flame new players for thier lack of knowledge and experience. Yeah, that really helps.
Those players then come here and claim foul of anything they don't understand. And we end up where we are now...everyone sick of the current PvP situation, but it's not for the reasons they claim. It's a trickle effect from them learning things. Sadly, these changes get made and as those players have learned the game and how to play, those effects are now overdone.
Anyway, Sci spam has always been there. It's just that few people played Sci because it was always considered the weakest since everyone classifed PvP by DPS. Now people realize the power of those Sci Ships, more people use them. It's not more effective or more danagerous than it ever was, just more people using it correctly.