This is the idea I had in mind. Then you can choose a Boff from the race.
Well, going by that canon, conquered species are not allowed to serve in the KDF. Not sure if this is (still) in effect in STO, concerning the Gorn, but I do like this sort of "caste system" in Klingon society. Racial pride or prejudice (and the limitations that come with it) in a roleplaying game are not necessarily bad things, as they can add much to the general "flavor" of a faction ...
The KDF quite simply isn't as multi-cultural and openminded as the Federation - this is one of the defining traits as well.
Well, going by that canon, conquered species are not allowed to serve in the KDF. Not sure if this is (still) in effect in STO, concerning the Gorn, but I do like this sort of "caste system" in Klingon society. Racial pride or prejudice (and the limitations that come with it) in a roleplaying game are not necessarily bad things, as they can add much to the general "flavor" of a faction ...
The KDF quite simply isn't as multi-cultural and openminded as the Federation - this is one of the defining traits as well.
The Gorn a a different matter since they were allowed to govern themselves while conquered people have an appointed military governor.
The al'Hmatti from "Diplomatic Implausibility" and of course the Organians are perfect examples.
So people as the Pheben from the novels are allowed abouard the ships as servants who clean up the mess hall but anything above?
Only planetside.
So people as the Pheben from the novels are allowed abouard the ships as servants who clean up the mess hall but anything above?
Hmm, it's been a while since I was reading the novel - were they really allowed aboard KDF ships? I would've thought that warships are usually considered off-limits for jeghpu'wI, except of course when the ship is docked and the repair teams consist of non-Klingon workers, or when the Captain himself makes an individual exception from the rules.
Feel free to refresh my memory. I'm really unsure about this now.
Hmm, it's been a while since I was reading the novel - were they really allowed aboard KDF ships? I would've thought that warships are usually considered off-limits for jeghpu'wI, except of course when the ship is docked and the repair teams consist of non-Klingon workers, or when the Captain himself makes an individual exception from the rules.
Feel free to refresh my memory. I'm really unsure about this now.
IKS Gorkon, Book 1 "A good day to die" page 162: a Pheben called Leknerf uses a scanner to pick up traces of Grapok sauce in the mess hall to afterwards disintegrate them one by one.
IKS Gorkon, Book 1 "A good day to die" page 162: a Pheben called Leknerf uses a scanner to pick up traces of Grapok sauce in the mess hall to afterwards disintegrate them one by one.
Oooh, I must confess, I haven't read the earlier books (yet!), only "A Burning House". Thanks for pointing this out - I'll adopt that into my RP.
It seems to me that the Klingons roughly follow the model of the Roman Empire in terms of conquered people's rights. Once a country was absorbed into the Empire, the people of that country were granted rights to work and do business, with an eventual path to citizenship. Eventually, even government representation was allowed. (Although the 'noble' houses did not include the lowborn.) Even slaves had paths to citizenship.
This seems very much like the Klingon model. They consider themselves inherently superior, but there seems to be a path for subjugated races to have fully normalized membership status within the Empire.
Given the Klingon love for harsh ritual and proof of worthiness even within their native ranks, I'd imagine it is hard for aliens to qualify for officer status in the KDF, and so it is likely that few end up serving as such on ships.
Klingons are not as all-embracing of diversity as the Federation, but it does seem to me that you are judged primarily on what you can do, despite prejudices. An able person who proves loyalty can probably do fairly well for themselves, even if they can't become powerful political leaders.
you claim the federation is open minded and whatnot to other races? so why are only humans in charge of starfleet? the ratio of aliens to humans in command positions and leadership roles has always been 99 to 1 on a scale of 100! and most of the aliens in that 1% are half human hybrids!
at least in the kdf if a non klingon earns a place of honor its not due to affirmative action or any other misbegotten concept, HE EARNS IT.
the federation is all about human interests, its always humans first! human ships human admirals human captains! why do you think the only liberated borg are human!?!
ps if you didnt appreciate my attempt at satiracle art, well the sad thing is, due to lazy make up people in the shows, most of trek was humans, all the leaders ect were! and due to that the devs gave us the same kind of npcs in game, very few non humans in power!
This seems very much like the Klingon model. They consider themselves inherently superior, but there seems to be a path for subjugated races to have fully normalized membership status within the Empire.
Hmm. I don't think a subjugated race can ever achieve "full" citizen status. The Klingon Empire may allow some sort of representation in the government, but as a rule, a conquered world will always have a Klingon governor. However, it does appear as if individual Klingons may allow individual non-Klingons to achieve a higher social status, either by marriage (Quark) or adoption into their House (Dax).
It's some sort of "loophole" for distinguished individuals: Even though one's species may never be equal to their Klingon masters, a single exceptional person will still be able to climb the social ladder if he proves himself worthy, and possibly drag his next of kin upwards with him. In very exceptional circumstances this might even allow non-Klingon governors, if one such individual has gained leadership of a Klingon House.
you claim the federation is open minded and whatnot to other races? so why are only humans in charge of starfleet? the ratio of aliens to humans in command positions and leadership roles has always been 99 to 1 on a scale of 100!
I've always interpreted the Human prevalence in Starfleet as a sign that Humans are simply more militaristic than other species, and thus more likely to enroll for duty in a highly organized agency that places great emphasis on order and regulations whilst placing them in dangerous situations (exploration and defence). In fact, this explanation is also given in the booklet of the Starfleet Command games. And it goes well with the fact that Humans are still "newcomers" to the galactic society - evolved, but (as the Vulcans suspected) not yet evolved enough to let go entirely of their warlike roots. They simply try to temper themselves by serving the greater good that is the Federation and its principles. So, in a way, the Human "deficit" is actually an asset to the Federation, as most of the other species are too pacifistic to deal with external threats represented by the more aggressive empires neighboring Federation space.
"Just remember: Under that placid Federation veneer, Humans are still a bunch of violent savages."
- Quark
Oooh, I must confess, I haven't read the earlier books (yet!), only "A Burning House". Thanks for pointing this out - I'll adopt that into my RP.
The first three books are worth reading, though the writing can be hit or miss sometimes, but still the overall stories are good and do a good job of showing the conflict between Klingons believe in honor as the pinnacle of Klingon society and those who disregard honor when it is inconvenient.
The first three books are worth reading, though the writing can be hit or miss sometimes, but still the overall stories are good and do a good job of showing the conflict between Klingons believe in honor as the pinnacle of Klingon society and those who disregard honor when it is inconvenient.
I don't really read Klingon books or ST books for that matter...I don't see the merit currently...Are they even worth it if I decided to pick one up, or must I go in some particular order?...If so let me know..Remember, I am in some bum #^%@ part of the country so keep that in mind when recommending a book.
The proper order certainly helps to understand the motivation of the characters especially between the first and second Gorkon novel.
When you don't read the first you don't understand how much respect Klaag has for the people he gave a
promis to that he must keep in the second.
In the fourth he's questioned about several of his actions in the third so it makes sense to read that one too.
Also in the fourth one of the common ground soldiers soldiers goes home to his family and is practically "tortured" by the local folks because he's asked to work as a consultant on an opera about the events of the first two books.
It is torture because the makers of the opera take a great many "liberties" when telling the story which drives him nuts.
So again it helps to have read the first two there as well.
The Gorkon first appeared in "Diplomatic Implausibility" and "The Brave and the Bold" but I found these books to be somewhat lacking compared to the actual Gorkon Novels that I absolutely enjoyed.
I've always interpreted the Human prevalence in Starfleet as a sign that Humans are simply more militaristic than other species, and thus more likely to enroll for duty in a highly organized agency that places great emphasis on order and regulations whilst placing them in dangerous situations (exploration and defence). In fact, this explanation is also given in the booklet of the Starfleet Command games. And it goes well with the fact that Humans are still "newcomers" to the galactic society - evolved, but (as the Vulcans suspected) not yet evolved enough to let go entirely of their warlike roots. They simply try to temper themselves by serving the greater good that is the Federation and its principles. So, in a way, the Human "deficit" is actually an asset to the Federation, as most of the other species are too pacifistic to deal with external threats represented by the more aggressive empires neighboring Federation space.
The reasing that humans are so prominent because they are the most militaristic of the various Federation races is a quote straight out of the manual from "Starfleet Command" which took that from the desciption of the Federation in "Star Fleet Battles" and I doubt it's that's the whole story.
Even though it is not entirely related I recently wrote a little comment about the prevailance of humans in Starfleet in another thread, which is actually primiarily because of the target audience.
So I'll just like to that and hope that beside the fact the purpose of the post as a whole was a different one the point still gets across:
I don't really read Klingon books or ST books for that matter...I don't see the merit currently...Are they even worth it if I decided to pick one up, or must I go in some particular order?...If so let me know..Remember, I am in some bum #^%@ part of the country so keep that in mind when recommending a book.
It depends on what your expectations are. The books to me are hit and miss as far as the writing goes, but they do a good job of fleshing out the Klingon culture we've seen in the shows. The order does help in following the overall story especially between book one and two. Book three could almost be read on its own with out the other two. I just started book four last night, so I can't say on that one for sure.
Really I got these as a distraction, as my father is sick and spending a lot of time in the hospital. There is a lot of down time, so I figured I'd fill it with what I call "junk food" reading.
Edit: On topic of enslavement/conquest. One of the interesting things in book three is that it suggests that the Klingons will not just conquer any specie, they might defeat them in battle, but they may be deemed unworthy of conquest and the resources required for inclusion into the Empire.
It depends on what your expectations are. The books to me are hit and miss as far as the writing goes, but they do a good job of fleshing out the Klingon culture we've seen in the shows. The order does help in following the overall story especially between book one and two. Book three could almost be read on its own with out the other two. I just started book four last night, so I can't say on that one for sure.
Really I got these as a distraction, as my father is sick and spending a lot of time in the hospital. There is a lot of down time, so I figured I'd fill it with what I call "junk food" reading.
Edit: On topic of enslavement/conquest. One of the interesting things in book three is that it suggests that the Klingons will not just conquer any specie, they might defeat them in battle, but they may be deemed unworthy of conquest and the resources required for inclusion into the Empire.
Thanks, I doubt I can find such bookshere in bum $%#@ town where I am, but I suppose there's always the internet...lol. Any good source there that make good recommendations?
Thanks, I doubt I can find such bookshere in bum $%#@ town where I am, but I suppose there's always the internet...lol. Any good source there that make good recommendations?
You know if you are not adverse to reading them off a screen I think they were released in e-book style too. If not I used Amazon to get mine, I bought them used, which kind be hit or miss since sometimes the shipping is more expensive than the book.
The reasing that humans are so prominent because they are the most militaristic of the various Federation races is a quote straight out of the manual from "Starfleet Command" which took that from the desciption of the Federation in "Star Fleet Battles" and I doubt it's that's the whole story.
I think the preponderance of humans is indeed due to the human audience combined with budgetary restraints.
After all, races like the Andorians have a proud military tradition. To say that humans are the most militaristic of the Federation's many member races is as silly as making them so prominent to begin with. It suggests that humans have a singular special quality that sets them apart and makes them more suited to Starfleet, and is as antithetical to Star Trek's ideals as the phenomenon it tries to explain away.
There's really nothing in Star Trek that explains the largely human Starfleet. The explanation for that is in the producer's and accountant's office, as well as the nature of human beings in our real world.
I just started book four last night, so I can't say on that one for sure.
Well, I've only read "A Burning House" so far, and I can say I enjoyed it thoroughly even without reading the earlier ones. There are a lot of references, but everything critical is explained along the way. If anything it just did make me curious about the other adventures of the characters.
On topic of enslavement/conquest. One of the interesting things in book three is that it suggests that the Klingons will not just conquer any specie, they might defeat them in battle, but they may be deemed unworthy of conquest and the resources required for inclusion into the Empire.
True, that topic also came up in book four. Occupation and integration also require resources, so it's probably wise to check that you don't gain less than you've invested.
I think the preponderance of humans is indeed due to the human audience combined with budgetary restraints.
Well, of course - but I still like to find in-universe explanations to these things where it seems plausible, and SFC's take on it seemed like a good idea. Kind of like the soft-canon explanations for why the BoP has movable wings, even though we all know that the studio did it just because it's cool.
As for the Andorians, it's more than just being militant of course, rather a combination of factors. Starfleet is not some kind of army like the Imperial Guard, it's a miliarized exploration organization that concerns itself primarily with science and only secondarily with defense - and perhaps more importantly, their business usually takes them really far away. It is quite possible that the majority of Andorians doesn't like the prospect of scanning asteroids (being too militaristic) or that they simply don't like getting that far away from their home world (seeing that they place a great importance on a physical connection to their planet of origin). Added to that comes their penchant to violence which seems to be stronger than the Humans', so it might well be that it is just that the Humans have a better "combination"; the right balance between militarism, curiosity and sympathy.
Just one theory out of many I'm sure, but it is not unexplainable. And not even necessarily against the ideals of Trek either - only somewhat arrogant. But this has always been a problem of Trek, not only concerning species.
You know if you are not adverse to reading them off a screen I think they were released in e-book style too. If not I used Amazon to get mine, I bought them used, which kind be hit or miss since sometimes the shipping is more expensive than the book.
I don't have the money for that frakkin' ebook reader...its not on my to do list...lol
I also think that, as cool as these pads are, a classic piece of paper still "feels" better.
Just order the book at amazon - I did, too.
I own way too many books, if I could afford to put most of them into a pad of some sort I might just do that, but most of them are history books so unlikely to be sold as "ebooks".
Oooh, I can relate. And yes, I also see the advantages of a digital copy. It probably depends on the text and where I intend to read it - I could very well imagine it for travel or at office, maybe even for pen&paper games. But a really good story that I intend to read at home, in a comfy chair or in bed? No sir, that's got to be a paper book.
By the way, I've just read about an interesting comic series: Blood Will Tell takes some TOS story arcs and re-tells them - from the Klingon perspective! It's always better to hear both sides of the story, and from what I could read on MemAlpha, the thoughts and motivations of the Klingon commanders Kirk has encountered are quite important when it comes to examining their actions. An interesting read, I'm sure. In particular the culminating story Losses. Just look at the awesome cover. I can see several metaphores hidden in there.
Here's the general idea. Apparently, the story starts as an old Klingon teaches his descendents about their people's experience with the Humans:
"It is Qo'noS, not long after the explosion at Praxis, and K'aylynn approaches her grandfather, Kahnrah, asking him why he still broods. She asks why the Empire does not simply take what it needs; after all, that is what he taught her. He notes that he has been wrong in the past and that Gorkon speaks of a different way and that his vote is the one which will make the difference on the council. He has been reading journals and reports from all of those who have had experience with the Humans, trying to decide what option is best ..."
Oooh, I can relate. And yes, I also see the advantages of a digital copy. It probably depends on the text and where I intend to read it - I could very well imagine it for travel or at office, maybe even for pen&paper games. But a really good story that I intend to read at home, in a comfy chair or in bed? No sir, that's got to be a paper book.
By the way, I've just read about an interesting comic series: Blood Will Tell takes some TOS story arcs and re-tells them - from the Klingon perspective! It's always better to hear both sides of the story, and from what I could read on MemAlpha, the thoughts and motivations of the Klingon commanders Kirk has encountered are quite important when it comes to examining their actions. An interesting read, I'm sure. In particular the culminating story Losses. Just look at the awesome cover. I can see several metaphores hidden in there.
Here's the general idea. Apparently, the story starts as an old Klingon teaches his descendents about their people's experience with the Humans:
"It is Qo'noS, not long after the explosion at Praxis, and K'aylynn approaches her grandfather, Kahnrah, asking him why he still broods. She asks why the Empire does not simply take what it needs; after all, that is what he taught her. He notes that he has been wrong in the past and that Gorkon speaks of a different way and that his vote is the one which will make the difference on the council. He has been reading journals and reports from all of those who have had experience with the Humans, trying to decide what option is best ..."
Hmmm I may have found my next distraction - nice find!
Never bought an ebook, so I'm not sure if they are proprietary files or not. But point taken.
I own way too many books, if I could afford to put most of them into a pad of some sort I might just do that, but most of them are history books so unlikely to be sold as "ebooks".
Yeah, I think they are proprietary...lol...or at least that's what some co-workers that have those Kindles tell me.
Comments
The KDF quite simply isn't as multi-cultural and openminded as the Federation - this is one of the defining traits as well.
The Gorn a a different matter since they were allowed to govern themselves while conquered people have an appointed military governor.
The al'Hmatti from "Diplomatic Implausibility" and of course the Organians are perfect examples.
So people as the Pheben from the novels are allowed abouard the ships as servants who clean up the mess hall but anything above?
Only planetside.
Feel free to refresh my memory. I'm really unsure about this now.
IKS Gorkon, Book 1 "A good day to die" page 162: a Pheben called Leknerf uses a scanner to pick up traces of Grapok sauce in the mess hall to afterwards disintegrate them one by one.
It seems to me that the Klingons roughly follow the model of the Roman Empire in terms of conquered people's rights. Once a country was absorbed into the Empire, the people of that country were granted rights to work and do business, with an eventual path to citizenship. Eventually, even government representation was allowed. (Although the 'noble' houses did not include the lowborn.) Even slaves had paths to citizenship.
This seems very much like the Klingon model. They consider themselves inherently superior, but there seems to be a path for subjugated races to have fully normalized membership status within the Empire.
Given the Klingon love for harsh ritual and proof of worthiness even within their native ranks, I'd imagine it is hard for aliens to qualify for officer status in the KDF, and so it is likely that few end up serving as such on ships.
Klingons are not as all-embracing of diversity as the Federation, but it does seem to me that you are judged primarily on what you can do, despite prejudices. An able person who proves loyalty can probably do fairly well for themselves, even if they can't become powerful political leaders.
at least in the kdf if a non klingon earns a place of honor its not due to affirmative action or any other misbegotten concept, HE EARNS IT.
the federation is all about human interests, its always humans first! human ships human admirals human captains! why do you think the only liberated borg are human!?!
ps if you didnt appreciate my attempt at satiracle art, well the sad thing is, due to lazy make up people in the shows, most of trek was humans, all the leaders ect were! and due to that the devs gave us the same kind of npcs in game, very few non humans in power!
It's some sort of "loophole" for distinguished individuals: Even though one's species may never be equal to their Klingon masters, a single exceptional person will still be able to climb the social ladder if he proves himself worthy, and possibly drag his next of kin upwards with him. In very exceptional circumstances this might even allow non-Klingon governors, if one such individual has gained leadership of a Klingon House.
I've always interpreted the Human prevalence in Starfleet as a sign that Humans are simply more militaristic than other species, and thus more likely to enroll for duty in a highly organized agency that places great emphasis on order and regulations whilst placing them in dangerous situations (exploration and defence). In fact, this explanation is also given in the booklet of the Starfleet Command games. And it goes well with the fact that Humans are still "newcomers" to the galactic society - evolved, but (as the Vulcans suspected) not yet evolved enough to let go entirely of their warlike roots. They simply try to temper themselves by serving the greater good that is the Federation and its principles. So, in a way, the Human "deficit" is actually an asset to the Federation, as most of the other species are too pacifistic to deal with external threats represented by the more aggressive empires neighboring Federation space.
"Just remember: Under that placid Federation veneer, Humans are still a bunch of violent savages."
- Quark
This is actually an old Fantasy clich
The first three books are worth reading, though the writing can be hit or miss sometimes, but still the overall stories are good and do a good job of showing the conflict between Klingons believe in honor as the pinnacle of Klingon society and those who disregard honor when it is inconvenient.
I don't really read Klingon books or ST books for that matter...I don't see the merit currently...Are they even worth it if I decided to pick one up, or must I go in some particular order?...If so let me know..Remember, I am in some bum #^%@ part of the country so keep that in mind when recommending a book.
When you don't read the first you don't understand how much respect Klaag has for the people he gave a
promis to that he must keep in the second.
In the fourth he's questioned about several of his actions in the third so it makes sense to read that one too.
Also in the fourth one of the common ground soldiers soldiers goes home to his family and is practically "tortured" by the local folks because he's asked to work as a consultant on an opera about the events of the first two books.
It is torture because the makers of the opera take a great many "liberties" when telling the story which drives him nuts.
So again it helps to have read the first two there as well.
The Gorkon first appeared in "Diplomatic Implausibility" and "The Brave and the Bold" but I found these books to be somewhat lacking compared to the actual Gorkon Novels that I absolutely enjoyed.
The reasing that humans are so prominent because they are the most militaristic of the various Federation races is a quote straight out of the manual from "Starfleet Command" which took that from the desciption of the Federation in "Star Fleet Battles" and I doubt it's that's the whole story.
Even though it is not entirely related I recently wrote a little comment about the prevailance of humans in Starfleet in another thread, which is actually primiarily because of the target audience.
So I'll just like to that and hope that beside the fact the purpose of the post as a whole was a different one the point still gets across:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3077694&postcount=233
It depends on what your expectations are. The books to me are hit and miss as far as the writing goes, but they do a good job of fleshing out the Klingon culture we've seen in the shows. The order does help in following the overall story especially between book one and two. Book three could almost be read on its own with out the other two. I just started book four last night, so I can't say on that one for sure.
Really I got these as a distraction, as my father is sick and spending a lot of time in the hospital. There is a lot of down time, so I figured I'd fill it with what I call "junk food" reading.
Edit: On topic of enslavement/conquest. One of the interesting things in book three is that it suggests that the Klingons will not just conquer any specie, they might defeat them in battle, but they may be deemed unworthy of conquest and the resources required for inclusion into the Empire.
Thanks, I doubt I can find such bookshere in bum $%#@ town where I am, but I suppose there's always the internet...lol. Any good source there that make good recommendations?
You know if you are not adverse to reading them off a screen I think they were released in e-book style too. If not I used Amazon to get mine, I bought them used, which kind be hit or miss since sometimes the shipping is more expensive than the book.
I think the preponderance of humans is indeed due to the human audience combined with budgetary restraints.
After all, races like the Andorians have a proud military tradition. To say that humans are the most militaristic of the Federation's many member races is as silly as making them so prominent to begin with. It suggests that humans have a singular special quality that sets them apart and makes them more suited to Starfleet, and is as antithetical to Star Trek's ideals as the phenomenon it tries to explain away.
There's really nothing in Star Trek that explains the largely human Starfleet. The explanation for that is in the producer's and accountant's office, as well as the nature of human beings in our real world.
True, that topic also came up in book four. Occupation and integration also require resources, so it's probably wise to check that you don't gain less than you've invested.
Well, of course - but I still like to find in-universe explanations to these things where it seems plausible, and SFC's take on it seemed like a good idea. Kind of like the soft-canon explanations for why the BoP has movable wings, even though we all know that the studio did it just because it's cool.
As for the Andorians, it's more than just being militant of course, rather a combination of factors. Starfleet is not some kind of army like the Imperial Guard, it's a miliarized exploration organization that concerns itself primarily with science and only secondarily with defense - and perhaps more importantly, their business usually takes them really far away. It is quite possible that the majority of Andorians doesn't like the prospect of scanning asteroids (being too militaristic) or that they simply don't like getting that far away from their home world (seeing that they place a great importance on a physical connection to their planet of origin). Added to that comes their penchant to violence which seems to be stronger than the Humans', so it might well be that it is just that the Humans have a better "combination"; the right balance between militarism, curiosity and sympathy.
Just one theory out of many I'm sure, but it is not unexplainable. And not even necessarily against the ideals of Trek either - only somewhat arrogant. But this has always been a problem of Trek, not only concerning species.
I don't have the money for that frakkin' ebook reader...its not on my to do list...lol
Just order the book at amazon - I did, too.
Never bought an ebook, so I'm not sure if they are proprietary files or not. But point taken.
I own way too many books, if I could afford to put most of them into a pad of some sort I might just do that, but most of them are history books so unlikely to be sold as "ebooks".
By the way, I've just read about an interesting comic series: Blood Will Tell takes some TOS story arcs and re-tells them - from the Klingon perspective! It's always better to hear both sides of the story, and from what I could read on MemAlpha, the thoughts and motivations of the Klingon commanders Kirk has encountered are quite important when it comes to examining their actions. An interesting read, I'm sure. In particular the culminating story Losses. Just look at the awesome cover. I can see several metaphores hidden in there.
Here's the general idea. Apparently, the story starts as an old Klingon teaches his descendents about their people's experience with the Humans:
"It is Qo'noS, not long after the explosion at Praxis, and K'aylynn approaches her grandfather, Kahnrah, asking him why he still broods. She asks why the Empire does not simply take what it needs; after all, that is what he taught her. He notes that he has been wrong in the past and that Gorkon speaks of a different way and that his vote is the one which will make the difference on the council. He has been reading journals and reports from all of those who have had experience with the Humans, trying to decide what option is best ..."
Hmmm I may have found my next distraction - nice find!
Edit: Vol 1 comes in a Klingon Language edition
Yeah, I think they are proprietary...lol...or at least that's what some co-workers that have those Kindles tell me.