There has to be a way to beat the gold farmers and yet still allow UGC to be worth people's while XP wise.
I think the gold farmers have been beaten by STO's sheer unpopularity.
Plus equipment and the crafting system isn't that great to really drive a massive need for credits.
if they keep the high rated ones free from that restriction...
it will be ok, the number of those missions will grow, and grow and grow....quickly
I estimate the number of good UGC mission will exceed the number of current missions in..
.. a week.
Cryptic developers are professional, hard working and...limited in number.
....players are amatur, hardly working.........and out number cryptic developers
20,000 to 1 ................LOL no contest
I think the gold farmers have been beaten by STO's sheer unpopularity.
Plus equipment and the crafting system isn't that great to really drive a massive need for credits.
if UGC is successful it's going to bring people back.
Cryptic developers are professional, hard working and...limited in number.
....players are amatur, hardly working.........and out number cryptic developers
20,000 to 1 ................LOL no contest
if UGC is successful it's going to bring people back.
Maybe. Even good stories will be restricted to the limited mechanics available by the engine, and we won't be able to make things as grand in scope as, for example, the Deferi Sector.
I know I'd be much more inclined to build a large series of episodes if I could make an entire sector. Maybe that's something they can add later on... each author can have X number of sectors within which their episodes can take place. You'd still get to the sectors through a dialogue screen, though... no way to practically connect them to the larger universe.
Maybe. Even good stories will be restricted to the limited mechanics available by the engine, and we won't be able to make things as grand in scope as, for example, the Deferi Sector.
I know I'd be much more inclined to build a large series of episodes if I could make an entire sector. Maybe that's something they can add later on... each author can have X number of sectors within which their episodes can take place. You'd still get to the sectors through a dialogue screen, though... no way to practically connect them to the larger universe.
That would be awesome. Almost like creating your own storyline.
Kill XP is so low that it can't be farmed - only Mission XP is in question.
Mission XP is balanced based on average completion time. Same as dev created missions.
Duplicate missions are already in STO and we can do them all day long (Star Clusters, DSE's).
With points 1-3 you don't really have UGC Farms - you only have repetitive & boring content.
If there are any true exploits or content bypasses they will be continuously identified and expunged with the Reporting System.
Most players have indicated they prefer something new to play over repetitive content. How many times have we heard "Not enough content in STO!" when people could simply grind DSE's or Star Clusters? It's a non-issue.
So, there is no need for "Diminishing Returns" which punishes people who want to level up by exploring new and diverse UGC content all day long.
If we do more than 2 UGC missions in one day each one should give balanced rewards, period.
The big issue is number 2 - IF the 'average mission completion time' calculation mechanic can be exploited by just having the minimum number of people running it - it has say one easy group - but the exploiters make sure to run/fly around for an hour before taking said group ut and compleing it; and as a resukt base mission EXP gets VERY boosted. <
It may sound like a lot of work, but if something like this gets through undetected; people can get a large EXP reward for what in reality is a 5 minute mission in the end.
And that's just the sort of things exploiters would try; and again, the peer review system won't flag it either as they'll definitely get enough people to pass it as again, there's always folks who just want the fastest way to whatever level they want level (for PvP, or whatever.)
The reason Cryptic can't use them is because CBS doesn't own them. Ditto for Star Wars characters or Marvel Comics characters or whatever.
CBS might NOT care if you use Kzinti. It's Niven who might care. (And, in fact, I believe he supports fan use of them in any universe as a matter of his personal policy.)
Now... The issue is the same issue as you have with people making their captain a Na'vi. Exact same issue...
Well, its not really the same issue, because again, we're talking about missions that are integrated into the game. As I said, none of these are issues if UGC takes place in some kind of partitioned off holodeck fanfic area that Cryptic leaves 'anything goes'. Then they just have to respond to tickets, agreed.
But, for example, if when I made a race in the alien creator, I could name that race, and write its back story, and create its own planet, and other players, if paying a sub, could then download all of that and also play as that race...and if I created say Wookies...then Cryptic would be potentially in real legal trouble if Lucas found out about it. Not because I made a wookie, but because they, by means of a paid service, distributed content that violated intellectual property.
Again, its like if I write a fanfic, I can write whatever I want under fair use. And I can go to Kinko's and photocopy it a thousand times and hand it out to everyone I know to read, and its all covered under fair use. If Doubleday publishes that fanfic, and sells it as part of a collection, then Doubleday can potentially be in real legal trouble.
I'm sure if I make a Kzinti-looking character, I could get away with it. That's different than me making a mission with material that CBS has explicitly proscribed Cryptic from making missions with. Otherwise, what's to stop Cryptic employees from creating banned missions on their player accounts? They're not going to play their license that way, trust me. They'd lose it.
I didnt have time to watch the entire podcast, so I'm not sure what this system of reviewers are. Is it that this review panel of players vet each and every single mission before they are even allowed on live? I doubt this is the case, but if it is, its obviously a bad idea, both as a bottleneck approval process and as too much player personal power, no matter how high the approval for said reviewers.
Or is it a system for tacking recommendations onto missions and for the better ones, being shot up to cryptic for approval to be placed in the game world rather than in a database? Because thats the kind of panel i can get behind. It wouldnt be as if players can 'block' missions, only pass them to a higher vetting authority in cryptic. That saves cryptic time in finding these 'excellent' missions, and it also doesnt allow exploitation, because cryptic is still the final reviewer, and people on the panel simply get booted if they try to do stupid stuff.
Then everything else that stays on the common database is subject to ordinary ratings, 5 stars or a 10 point system, whatever.
As for diminishing returns on missions, IMO its abit heavyhanded, if its implemented. From what i gather, the problem in the past with UGC is that you could farm mobs. In STO, like most MMOs mission completion gives more exp, but in STO's case that gap is huge, mobs give extremely few points, skill, exp or otherwise.
So it seems to me as though the problem is already solved, but i wouldnt underestimate the resourcefulness of power levelers. If that limit is implemented, id just think, better safe than sorry. Everything is a timesink in an MMO anyway. Otherwise we would have no travel system, all missions are accessible from one room that you log into, and all vendors are also in said room. That would be fun.
As for klingons, would it really be that bad? You get full exp for the first 2-3 missions, maybe less starting on the 3rd or 4th. After the 3rd or 4th you maybe do one star cluster run. Do alot of klingon players play more than that in a single day, something like 3-4 full missions worth of play and maybe 3 short cluster missions?
It seems to me that it only doesnt benefit hardcore sessions.
Well, its not really the same issue, because again, we're talking about missions that are integrated into the game. As I said, none of these are issues if UGC takes place in some kind of partitioned off holodeck fanfic area that Cryptic leaves 'anything goes'. Then they just have to respond to tickets, agreed.
How is it any more or less fanfic on the holodeck than in the open universe? Just because it happens in the "open universe" doesn't make it "real". It just means you can have mechanics like travel built in and that nobody's trying to explain or contextualize it.
Trust me, Cryptic has the "copyright issues" with player creations thing under control. They have years of experience (and some lawsuits) due to their 2 different Superhero games.
As a former CoH and CO player, I can pretty much tell you that the rule is:
Don't make a direct copy of something copyrighted. You can make something that "pays respect to" such a thing, but a virtual copy will get deleted once reported.
The big issue is number 2 - IF the 'average mission completion time' calculation mechanic can be exploited by just having the minimum number of people running it - it has say one easy group - but the exploiters make sure to run/fly around for an hour before taking said group ut and compleing it; and as a resukt base mission EXP gets VERY boosted.
That's not a huge concern either as Cryptic can (and probably will) monitor and adjust UGC XP constantly.
In City of Heroes, NCSoft monitors and adjusts the # of Merits given for their Task Force missions. Quite a few TFs had Merits reduced because players found ways to do them faster.
There were some players that wanted to fudge NCSoft's data mining by taking longer on TFs but the vast majority of people ran them as fast as possible and the rewards got reduced nonetheless. We can expect the same behavior with UGC. MMO's are always full of impatient people.
You can be sure Cryptic has some Data Mining Algorithms already set up to detect this sort of thing.
That's not a huge concern either as Cryptic can (and probably will) monitor and adjust UGC XP constantly.
And just where did they get the resources to allow this kind of constant supervision? 8 months after release and the game is still largely unfinished. Resources need to be going to finishing the game... not policing UGC.
Wikipedia does fine with its users being involved in creating and overseeing the content. Are you telling me that the users of Wikipedia are smarter than the players of STO?
And, if we don't have player reviewers then what would you suggest instead? Cryptic hire employees to review the Player Created Missions? First of all that's not going to happen. Secondly, we'd have thousands of players creating missions and you'd want a handful of employees reviewing them? I hope you write your mission within the first week. Otherwise you'll be lucky to see it reviewed by 2013.
Also, the biggest problem with the City of Heroes Mission Architect is the ability to customize the powers for the NPCs you put into the missions. That's what allowed people to exploit it. For example: stocking the mission with NPCs that have no offensive powers. So you get to kill them for XP, but there's no danger of them attacking you.
The STO devs have already said that they're not going to allow us that level of customization of the NPCs.
So unless some smart player comes up with a way to carpet bomb whole armies of NPCs that are stuck in a box, I really doubt that it's going to be possible to exploit the system. It seems that Cryptic has learned from the mistakes of the Mission Architect.
Another issue, however, is that you need to pay to see the content. How can LucasArts or any other patent holder know what users are creating in STO? Do they have to buy subscriptions and check all content, themselves? That issue alone might lead to pressure being put on Cryptic to control the content directly, themselves, or to abolish the UGC system altogether.
They would have to if they wanted to micro-manage the world, yes.
But they are not required to do so to protect their trademarks and IP. It's fine with them being reactive and only reacting once they become aware of an infringement.
Their primary worry is people making money of their brand or diluting their brand. In the tiny context of user generated MMO content, the risks are fairly low.
They would have to if they wanted to micro-manage the world, yes.
But they are not required to do so to protect their trademarks and IP. It's fine with them being reactive and only reacting once they become aware of an infringement.
Their primary worry is people making money of their brand or diluting their brand. In the tiny context of user generated MMO content, the risks are fairly low.
I disagree. The risk is very high, but the end result will be difficult to measure. Make no mistake... day 1 of UGC will be maybe 40% Star Trek based, 60% based on other franchises. The UGC galaxy will be running rampant with Na'vi and Wookies and Yodas and Asari and Turians.... and of course planets full of the ever-popular though not copyrighted werewolves and vampires.
And the copyright holders of all those franchises might not like the idea of an MMO enabling the use of their material behind their realm of visibility, and Cryptic making profit by providing the medium through which the material is shared with others.
And the copyright holders of all those franchises might not like the idea of an MMO enabling the use of their material behind their realm of visibility, and Cryptic making profit by providing the medium through which the material is shared with others.
But they (usually) overlook mods introducing those franchises into for example, star trek games. Goodness knows theres a hundred and one galactica mods in bridge commander.
Now granted, the difference is that in STO's case, technically cryptic is profiting from this as you say due to the fact that we must pay a sub to access the content.
But im guessing that even at that level, such things are usually overlooked. Other MMOs that have UGC dont have such legal issues, like CoH, or else the company doesnt release information about it. Either way it doesnt sound like a major issue.
Also, im quite sure that while 40% or so is trek and the rest isnt, content of other franchises isnt going to make up the majority of the non-trek content. As minority content they'll likely fly under the radar. The problem is if a missions, say it involves star wars, becomes popular enough to be a featured or recommended mission, maybe highlighted outside the game in an article or something. Now that would cause problems.
Even then the most likely outcome is that cryptic gets issued a cease-and-desist order to remove the content. So yeah, they just have to be reactive.
How is it any more or less fanfic on the holodeck than in the open universe? Just because it happens in the "open universe" doesn't make it "real". It just means you can have mechanics like travel built in and that nobody's trying to explain or contextualize it.
Because if its off in a corner by itself, Cryptic can make a valid claim to not distributing it. I.e. if its in its own little section somewhere, they can say that its like this message board, that its a service any player can use to share with other players, and they're only responsible for moderating it based on reports.
If, as we've seen in some screenshots, on the other hand, its integrated into the game so that when I fly to a star system, I get a list of missions that includes both the Cryptic made content and the UGC side by side, then its very difficult, legally, for Cryptic to argue that the UGC missions on that list don't have to follow the same standards as the Cryptic made content on that same list, since they're distributing both together.
This, again, raises the issues I mentioned with CBS, with other IP holders, and with the ESRB, none of which exist in a 'fanfic forum' type of environment.
Again, the crux of the point I'm making is that for UGC to be integrated into the game world, it has to be reviewed by somebody. You can't get around that. And I'd rather have it be read by volunteer player reviewers than see the money I pay to improve the game go to reading fanfic.
hmmm well there needs to be a bit of compromise on that.
If you have no EXP....99% of the non-cap players will ignore all UGC because
they will comsider it a waste of time. Cap players will use it for something different to do.
That will push UGC writers to only make end game adventures....not the best plan.
Full EXP will promote EXP farming......also not good.
So......
My best guess would be that UGC adventures should give out 40-60% of the EXP
a standard mission would give out, that would discourage farming and give
non-cap players a reason to try them out.
If an adventure is very highly rated over time AND the Developers review it, the Developers
can raise the EXP reward given on that adventure and make it public.
everyone is so certain there will be thousands of missions within a week. Even in the trek community, the chances of that are real slim. Everyone shows interest in the tools, of those people only some will actually use them. Then only a few willhave a gebuine dedication to making missions. I think it will be a bit harder than people think. l I truly beleive that many of us will TALK about it, but only a fraction of people will stick around to make decent usable mission. Not everyone is cut out for it. EVEN if it seems like an exciting prospect now, the fantasy and reality can get blurred. Maybe I am wrong , but i just dont see it going down that way. Still I am hopefull the people who do make mission will do well.
And STILL I dont get out of ALL THE DIFFERENT facets of this conversation, why people concentrate on the LEGAL aspect..when it is the one aspect they should definaltey leave to the experts. There is so much presumption and conjectuer...dont get me wrong I am putting no one down. It's natural to speculate..but the legal side is just getting a bit out of hand IMHO. Why worry? Let someone else do that..lets get some ideas flowing no?
Well, its not really the same issue, because again, we're talking about missions that are integrated into the game. As I said, none of these are issues if UGC takes place in some kind of partitioned off holodeck fanfic area that Cryptic leaves 'anything goes'. Then they just have to respond to tickets, agreed.
But, for example, if when I made a race in the alien creator, I could name that race, and write its back story, and create its own planet, and other players, if paying a sub, could then download all of that and also play as that race...and if I created say Wookies...then Cryptic would be potentially in real legal trouble if Lucas found out about it. Not because I made a wookie, but because they, by means of a paid service, distributed content that violated intellectual property.
Again, its like if I write a fanfic, I can write whatever I want under fair use. And I can go to Kinko's and photocopy it a thousand times and hand it out to everyone I know to read, and its all covered under fair use. If Doubleday publishes that fanfic, and sells it as part of a collection, then Doubleday can potentially be in real legal trouble.
I'm sure if I make a Kzinti-looking character, I could get away with it. That's different than me making a mission with material that CBS has explicitly proscribed Cryptic from making missions with. Otherwise, what's to stop Cryptic employees from creating banned missions on their player accounts? They're not going to play their license that way, trust me. They'd lose it.
Are you still making this tired old argument? The fact of the matter is, all Cryptic is required to do is remove any copyright violating content that is REPORTED to them. So if someone makes a mission with wookies and you see it, report it. As long as Cryptic removes it, then they have done all they are required to do legally. Its like in Champions Online: people create TONS of characters that are blatant violations of copyrighted characters from Marvel and DC. However, all Cryptic is required to do is address the ones that are actually reported. They dont have to manually approve every character that is created.
I don't think a judge would distinguish between "open world" and "holodeck".
Instead, I think the relevant two factors are this:
1) Open world (or closed world or ANY UGC missions) are clearly flagged as unofficial and not authored by Cryptic, wherever they take place. Sure, Quinn may give you a mission to go kill Wookies but there will be some means of seeing that Cryptic is not the author. Like maybe a big logo underneath his portrait or a tag in the mission text that identifies it as user-created. In the end, you have to do this whether it's on a holodeck or not and the story contextualization has zero meaning in the case of infringement.
2) Cryptic polices anything brought to its attention. And they would be no more or less responsible for doing this if it's set on a Holodeck. And even when it's passively offered to you, they'll make it clear they didn't create it. And they'll only actively advertise missions they reviewed and are comfortable with.
Are you still making this tired old argument? The fact of the matter is, all Cryptic is required to do is remove any copyright violating content that is REPORTED to them. So if someone makes a mission with wookies and you see it, report it. As long as Cryptic removes it, then they have done all they are required to do legally. Its like in Champions Online: people create TONS of characters that are blatant violations of copyrighted characters from Marvel and DC. However, all Cryptic is required to do is address the ones that are actually reported. They dont have to manually approve every character that is created.
Its not 'like in Champions Online', because Champions Online doesn't have user created missions. A player, on their own, making a character that looks like Wolverine and is named Wulvereen, isn't a legal issue as long as its taken care of when its reported. Cryptic having an NPC in their game world who gives players a quest where they team up with Wolverine is an entirely different legal issue.
Let me put it another way: If things are as you're arguing, then CBS might as well tear up its license guidelines. CBS has given Cryptic explicit guidelines in terms of how, for example, Vulcans, Andorians, etc. can be portrayed. You guys are claiming that UGC is not subject to those rules, and that CBS is fine with that. Within 6 months (and that's being generous, probably more like one month) there will be 10 times as many UGC missions as Cryptic made missions. So you're really arguing that CBS doesn't care how their IP is portrayed 90% of the time in this game? I guarantee you CBS isn't going to pay people to read all the UGC and approve it, they're going to make Cryptic do it. Cryptic can't afford to do it, so they're getting players to volunteer to do it. There's not really an option other than player reviewers.
I don't think a judge would distinguish between "open world" and "holodeck".
Instead, I think the relevant two factors are this:
1) Open world (or closed world or ANY UGC missions) are clearly flagged as unofficial and not authored by Cryptic, wherever they take place. Sure, Quinn may give you a mission to go kill Wookies but there will be some means of seeing that Cryptic is not the author. Like maybe a big logo underneath his portrait or a tag in the mission text that identifies it as user-created. In the end, you have to do this whether it's on a holodeck or not and the story contextualization has zero meaning in the case of infringement.
2) Cryptic polices anything brought to its attention. And they would be no more or less responsible for doing this if it's set on a Holodeck. And even when it's passively offered to you, they'll make it clear they didn't create it. And they'll only actively advertise missions they reviewed and are comfortable with.
I think you kind of contradict yourself. I make the point that unless UGC missions are clearly separated and distinguished from Cryptic made missions that they're going to have to be held to the same standards, and you respond by saying that as long as they're clearly seperated and distinguished there isn't a problem.
Its not 'like in Champions Online', because Champions Online doesn't have user created missions. A player, on their own, making a character that looks like Wolverine and is named Wulvereen, isn't a legal issue as long as its taken care of when its reported. Cryptic having an NPC in their game world who gives players a quest where they team up with Wolverine is an entirely different legal issue.
You seem to be very confused. UGC doesnt add new NPCs to the game world. It does allow players to create their own little instanced missions, but whatever is in those missions has no effect on the official game world or NPCs.
And just where did they get the resources to allow this kind of constant supervision? 8 months after release and the game is still largely unfinished. Resources need to be going to finishing the game... not policing UGC.
UGC is going to provide a hell of a lot of content. It should be provided plenty of resources.
And just where did they get the resources to allow this kind of constant supervision? 8 months after release and the game is still largely unfinished. Resources need to be going to finishing the game... not policing UGC.
That's not a resource problem. Data Mining is common practice in MMO's. It's a necessity to see what the masses are doing. Are they earning XP too fast or too slow, etc?
They collect data on everything and run programs to sort through it. It's not like they have an entire team of people dedicated to crunching numbers. A lot of it can be automated.
In any case, fudging mission completion times is something Cryptic can detect easily. And imo, it doesn't justify the need to push Diminishing Returns on all of us.
I want to be able to hop on my Klingon and play UGC content specifically made for Klingons and do it all day long just like Feds can with dev created missions. They should all give balanced XP rewards, not just the first 2 I run in a day.
I want to be able to hop on my Klingon and play UGC content specifically made for Klingons and do it all day long just like Feds can with dev created missions. They should all give balanced XP rewards, not just the first 2 I run in a day.
QFT. If UGC is going to be leaned on as a crutch toward factional parity, it can't be intentionally whittled into a brittle twig.
Comments
I think the gold farmers have been beaten by STO's sheer unpopularity.
Plus equipment and the crafting system isn't that great to really drive a massive need for credits.
it will be ok, the number of those missions will grow, and grow and grow....quickly
I estimate the number of good UGC mission will exceed the number of current missions in..
.. a week.
Cryptic developers are professional, hard working and...limited in number.
....players are amatur, hardly working.........and out number cryptic developers
20,000 to 1 ................LOL no contest
if UGC is successful it's going to bring people back.
I think Cryptic has more than 5 developers.
Maybe. Even good stories will be restricted to the limited mechanics available by the engine, and we won't be able to make things as grand in scope as, for example, the Deferi Sector.
I know I'd be much more inclined to build a large series of episodes if I could make an entire sector. Maybe that's something they can add later on... each author can have X number of sectors within which their episodes can take place. You'd still get to the sectors through a dialogue screen, though... no way to practically connect them to the larger universe.
That would be awesome. Almost like creating your own storyline.
well, I was being a bit generous on the subscription numbers :-P
it should not give xp or rewards at all aside from lootdrops that occur naturally and that cant be modified by the author (save for questitems etc).
see? all problems solved. no review board needed. bs content will be ignored via a rating system.
any other approach to this asinine.
UGC can and should not replace content made by the developer as far as leveling and grinding goes.
UGC is for players to tell other players interesting story. not a tool to hand out loot, xp or BS.
The big issue is number 2 - IF the 'average mission completion time' calculation mechanic can be exploited by just having the minimum number of people running it - it has say one easy group - but the exploiters make sure to run/fly around for an hour before taking said group ut and compleing it; and as a resukt base mission EXP gets VERY boosted. <
It may sound like a lot of work, but if something like this gets through undetected; people can get a large EXP reward for what in reality is a 5 minute mission in the end.
And that's just the sort of things exploiters would try; and again, the peer review system won't flag it either as they'll definitely get enough people to pass it as again, there's always folks who just want the fastest way to whatever level they want level (for PvP, or whatever.)
Well, its not really the same issue, because again, we're talking about missions that are integrated into the game. As I said, none of these are issues if UGC takes place in some kind of partitioned off holodeck fanfic area that Cryptic leaves 'anything goes'. Then they just have to respond to tickets, agreed.
But, for example, if when I made a race in the alien creator, I could name that race, and write its back story, and create its own planet, and other players, if paying a sub, could then download all of that and also play as that race...and if I created say Wookies...then Cryptic would be potentially in real legal trouble if Lucas found out about it. Not because I made a wookie, but because they, by means of a paid service, distributed content that violated intellectual property.
Again, its like if I write a fanfic, I can write whatever I want under fair use. And I can go to Kinko's and photocopy it a thousand times and hand it out to everyone I know to read, and its all covered under fair use. If Doubleday publishes that fanfic, and sells it as part of a collection, then Doubleday can potentially be in real legal trouble.
I'm sure if I make a Kzinti-looking character, I could get away with it. That's different than me making a mission with material that CBS has explicitly proscribed Cryptic from making missions with. Otherwise, what's to stop Cryptic employees from creating banned missions on their player accounts? They're not going to play their license that way, trust me. They'd lose it.
Or is it a system for tacking recommendations onto missions and for the better ones, being shot up to cryptic for approval to be placed in the game world rather than in a database? Because thats the kind of panel i can get behind. It wouldnt be as if players can 'block' missions, only pass them to a higher vetting authority in cryptic. That saves cryptic time in finding these 'excellent' missions, and it also doesnt allow exploitation, because cryptic is still the final reviewer, and people on the panel simply get booted if they try to do stupid stuff.
Then everything else that stays on the common database is subject to ordinary ratings, 5 stars or a 10 point system, whatever.
As for diminishing returns on missions, IMO its abit heavyhanded, if its implemented. From what i gather, the problem in the past with UGC is that you could farm mobs. In STO, like most MMOs mission completion gives more exp, but in STO's case that gap is huge, mobs give extremely few points, skill, exp or otherwise.
So it seems to me as though the problem is already solved, but i wouldnt underestimate the resourcefulness of power levelers. If that limit is implemented, id just think, better safe than sorry. Everything is a timesink in an MMO anyway. Otherwise we would have no travel system, all missions are accessible from one room that you log into, and all vendors are also in said room. That would be fun.
As for klingons, would it really be that bad? You get full exp for the first 2-3 missions, maybe less starting on the 3rd or 4th. After the 3rd or 4th you maybe do one star cluster run. Do alot of klingon players play more than that in a single day, something like 3-4 full missions worth of play and maybe 3 short cluster missions?
It seems to me that it only doesnt benefit hardcore sessions.
How is it any more or less fanfic on the holodeck than in the open universe? Just because it happens in the "open universe" doesn't make it "real". It just means you can have mechanics like travel built in and that nobody's trying to explain or contextualize it.
As a former CoH and CO player, I can pretty much tell you that the rule is:
Don't make a direct copy of something copyrighted. You can make something that "pays respect to" such a thing, but a virtual copy will get deleted once reported.
Wookiees? No.
Wonkies? Yes.
That's not a huge concern either as Cryptic can (and probably will) monitor and adjust UGC XP constantly.
In City of Heroes, NCSoft monitors and adjusts the # of Merits given for their Task Force missions. Quite a few TFs had Merits reduced because players found ways to do them faster.
There were some players that wanted to fudge NCSoft's data mining by taking longer on TFs but the vast majority of people ran them as fast as possible and the rewards got reduced nonetheless. We can expect the same behavior with UGC. MMO's are always full of impatient people.
You can be sure Cryptic has some Data Mining Algorithms already set up to detect this sort of thing.
And just where did they get the resources to allow this kind of constant supervision? 8 months after release and the game is still largely unfinished. Resources need to be going to finishing the game... not policing UGC.
And, if we don't have player reviewers then what would you suggest instead? Cryptic hire employees to review the Player Created Missions? First of all that's not going to happen. Secondly, we'd have thousands of players creating missions and you'd want a handful of employees reviewing them? I hope you write your mission within the first week. Otherwise you'll be lucky to see it reviewed by 2013.
Also, the biggest problem with the City of Heroes Mission Architect is the ability to customize the powers for the NPCs you put into the missions. That's what allowed people to exploit it. For example: stocking the mission with NPCs that have no offensive powers. So you get to kill them for XP, but there's no danger of them attacking you.
The STO devs have already said that they're not going to allow us that level of customization of the NPCs.
So unless some smart player comes up with a way to carpet bomb whole armies of NPCs that are stuck in a box, I really doubt that it's going to be possible to exploit the system. It seems that Cryptic has learned from the mistakes of the Mission Architect.
But they are not required to do so to protect their trademarks and IP. It's fine with them being reactive and only reacting once they become aware of an infringement.
Their primary worry is people making money of their brand or diluting their brand. In the tiny context of user generated MMO content, the risks are fairly low.
I disagree. The risk is very high, but the end result will be difficult to measure. Make no mistake... day 1 of UGC will be maybe 40% Star Trek based, 60% based on other franchises. The UGC galaxy will be running rampant with Na'vi and Wookies and Yodas and Asari and Turians.... and of course planets full of the ever-popular though not copyrighted werewolves and vampires.
And the copyright holders of all those franchises might not like the idea of an MMO enabling the use of their material behind their realm of visibility, and Cryptic making profit by providing the medium through which the material is shared with others.
But they (usually) overlook mods introducing those franchises into for example, star trek games. Goodness knows theres a hundred and one galactica mods in bridge commander.
Now granted, the difference is that in STO's case, technically cryptic is profiting from this as you say due to the fact that we must pay a sub to access the content.
But im guessing that even at that level, such things are usually overlooked. Other MMOs that have UGC dont have such legal issues, like CoH, or else the company doesnt release information about it. Either way it doesnt sound like a major issue.
Also, im quite sure that while 40% or so is trek and the rest isnt, content of other franchises isnt going to make up the majority of the non-trek content. As minority content they'll likely fly under the radar. The problem is if a missions, say it involves star wars, becomes popular enough to be a featured or recommended mission, maybe highlighted outside the game in an article or something. Now that would cause problems.
Even then the most likely outcome is that cryptic gets issued a cease-and-desist order to remove the content. So yeah, they just have to be reactive.
Because if its off in a corner by itself, Cryptic can make a valid claim to not distributing it. I.e. if its in its own little section somewhere, they can say that its like this message board, that its a service any player can use to share with other players, and they're only responsible for moderating it based on reports.
If, as we've seen in some screenshots, on the other hand, its integrated into the game so that when I fly to a star system, I get a list of missions that includes both the Cryptic made content and the UGC side by side, then its very difficult, legally, for Cryptic to argue that the UGC missions on that list don't have to follow the same standards as the Cryptic made content on that same list, since they're distributing both together.
This, again, raises the issues I mentioned with CBS, with other IP holders, and with the ESRB, none of which exist in a 'fanfic forum' type of environment.
Again, the crux of the point I'm making is that for UGC to be integrated into the game world, it has to be reviewed by somebody. You can't get around that. And I'd rather have it be read by volunteer player reviewers than see the money I pay to improve the game go to reading fanfic.
hmmm well there needs to be a bit of compromise on that.
If you have no EXP....99% of the non-cap players will ignore all UGC because
they will comsider it a waste of time. Cap players will use it for something different to do.
That will push UGC writers to only make end game adventures....not the best plan.
Full EXP will promote EXP farming......also not good.
So......
My best guess would be that UGC adventures should give out 40-60% of the EXP
a standard mission would give out, that would discourage farming and give
non-cap players a reason to try them out.
If an adventure is very highly rated over time AND the Developers review it, the Developers
can raise the EXP reward given on that adventure and make it public.
And STILL I dont get out of ALL THE DIFFERENT facets of this conversation, why people concentrate on the LEGAL aspect..when it is the one aspect they should definaltey leave to the experts. There is so much presumption and conjectuer...dont get me wrong I am putting no one down. It's natural to speculate..but the legal side is just getting a bit out of hand IMHO. Why worry? Let someone else do that..lets get some ideas flowing no?
Are you still making this tired old argument? The fact of the matter is, all Cryptic is required to do is remove any copyright violating content that is REPORTED to them. So if someone makes a mission with wookies and you see it, report it. As long as Cryptic removes it, then they have done all they are required to do legally. Its like in Champions Online: people create TONS of characters that are blatant violations of copyrighted characters from Marvel and DC. However, all Cryptic is required to do is address the ones that are actually reported. They dont have to manually approve every character that is created.
Instead, I think the relevant two factors are this:
1) Open world (or closed world or ANY UGC missions) are clearly flagged as unofficial and not authored by Cryptic, wherever they take place. Sure, Quinn may give you a mission to go kill Wookies but there will be some means of seeing that Cryptic is not the author. Like maybe a big logo underneath his portrait or a tag in the mission text that identifies it as user-created. In the end, you have to do this whether it's on a holodeck or not and the story contextualization has zero meaning in the case of infringement.
2) Cryptic polices anything brought to its attention. And they would be no more or less responsible for doing this if it's set on a Holodeck. And even when it's passively offered to you, they'll make it clear they didn't create it. And they'll only actively advertise missions they reviewed and are comfortable with.
Its not 'like in Champions Online', because Champions Online doesn't have user created missions. A player, on their own, making a character that looks like Wolverine and is named Wulvereen, isn't a legal issue as long as its taken care of when its reported. Cryptic having an NPC in their game world who gives players a quest where they team up with Wolverine is an entirely different legal issue.
Let me put it another way: If things are as you're arguing, then CBS might as well tear up its license guidelines. CBS has given Cryptic explicit guidelines in terms of how, for example, Vulcans, Andorians, etc. can be portrayed. You guys are claiming that UGC is not subject to those rules, and that CBS is fine with that. Within 6 months (and that's being generous, probably more like one month) there will be 10 times as many UGC missions as Cryptic made missions. So you're really arguing that CBS doesn't care how their IP is portrayed 90% of the time in this game? I guarantee you CBS isn't going to pay people to read all the UGC and approve it, they're going to make Cryptic do it. Cryptic can't afford to do it, so they're getting players to volunteer to do it. There's not really an option other than player reviewers.
I think you kind of contradict yourself. I make the point that unless UGC missions are clearly separated and distinguished from Cryptic made missions that they're going to have to be held to the same standards, and you respond by saying that as long as they're clearly seperated and distinguished there isn't a problem.
I don't think we really disagree all that much.
You seem to be very confused. UGC doesnt add new NPCs to the game world. It does allow players to create their own little instanced missions, but whatever is in those missions has no effect on the official game world or NPCs.
UGC is going to provide a hell of a lot of content. It should be provided plenty of resources.
That's not a resource problem. Data Mining is common practice in MMO's. It's a necessity to see what the masses are doing. Are they earning XP too fast or too slow, etc?
They collect data on everything and run programs to sort through it. It's not like they have an entire team of people dedicated to crunching numbers. A lot of it can be automated.
In any case, fudging mission completion times is something Cryptic can detect easily. And imo, it doesn't justify the need to push Diminishing Returns on all of us.
I want to be able to hop on my Klingon and play UGC content specifically made for Klingons and do it all day long just like Feds can with dev created missions. They should all give balanced XP rewards, not just the first 2 I run in a day.
QFT. If UGC is going to be leaned on as a crutch toward factional parity, it can't be intentionally whittled into a brittle twig.